Author Topic: Getting turnkey PCBA to source parts from lowest priced official vendor  (Read 1331 times)

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Offline Psi

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What's the best way to ensure the turnkey PCB assembler selects the lowest price genuine reseller for all your parts.

What I mean is.
The PCBA house will have a list of common vendors they purchase from and they can probably locate lower cost parts from genuine sources a lot better than I can. 
I guess what I'm asking is, how do you make them pass the savings along to you?
What I suspect normally happens is they quote/charge the digikey price for the parts then sourcing from some official/genuine vendor in china who can get them for 10-50% less. etc..

Do you just have to put the legwork in yourself to find the lowest priced vendor and then say on BOM that this is the only legit source to purchase the part from? I doubt I can even read the official china vendor sites because they will be in Chinese.
« Last Edit: September 23, 2021, 06:35:14 am by Psi »
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Offline jpanhalt

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Re: Getting turnkey PCBA to source parts from lowest priced official vendor
« Reply #1 on: September 23, 2021, 10:18:05 am »
A vendor has many factors to consider that aren't evident in the retail price lists of distributors.  Just some examples:
1) Supply reliability
2) Volume-based discount(s) (total annual volume, not single item)
3) Billing and credit arrangements with parts supplier
4) Shipping costs (single item cost/shipping cost << large purchase/shipping cost)

What you are wondering about is having control over the assembler's shop.  Sort of like taking your car to a dealer and expecting to tell the shop where to gets its pars.  In my business, that would never happen, as I was ultimately responsible for the outcome regardless of where I got our supplies.  I suspect a PCB assembler would feel the same.  Of course, there can be exceptions in the auto repair business (e.g., custom modifications), and that may also happen in PCB assembly.
« Last Edit: September 23, 2021, 10:20:00 am by jpanhalt »
 
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Offline wraper

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Re: Getting turnkey PCBA to source parts from lowest priced official vendor
« Reply #2 on: September 23, 2021, 10:26:23 am »
I guess you could tell them to get parts from LCSC of buy at LCSC or other Chinese vendor and ship to the factory yourself. Otherwise I don't think you can exert any leverage on them.
 

Offline Kean

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Re: Getting turnkey PCBA to source lowest price parts.
« Reply #3 on: September 23, 2021, 11:22:34 am »
Well I believe some of the high-end CMs will state their margin on components up front, and are happy to show you their supplier invoices for verification.  Or that has been the case in the past, and possibly not uncommon in the current market where prices have skyrocketed.  You will still need to do some legwork to get a good feel for your target BOM cost, but it will be pretty volatile right now.

Assuming we are talking decent order quantities, the CM should also be able to provide a supplier Declaration of Conformity, along with date codes or batch numbers for tracing purposes - especially for parts where you have nominated suppliers or "no generics".  Now whether what they show you is true or something they made up is another matter, but if concerned you should be able to verify.

Most of the time I run small assembly jobs in-house, or use an assembly house that accepts or prefers a BOM kitted by me.  That isn't generally practical with an overseas CM, so you need to build a relationship maybe with a local company that has their own overseas factory.  Having a local company responsible can be important if there is ever a legal dispute.

Here is something I found earlier which may give some insight into how the big manufacturing contracts are written (if you like reading legalease)
https://www.lawinsider.com/contracts/kTKQAyt1zjY
 

Online thm_w

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Re: Getting turnkey PCBA to source parts from lowest priced official vendor
« Reply #4 on: September 24, 2021, 09:26:30 pm »
What I suspect normally happens is they quote/charge the digikey price for the parts then sourcing from some official/genuine vendor in china who can get them for 10-50% less. etc..

Do they though? Or are you just assuming that.
 

Offline Psi

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Re: Getting turnkey PCBA to source parts from lowest priced official vendor
« Reply #5 on: September 25, 2021, 02:46:30 am »
What I suspect normally happens is they quote/charge the digikey price for the parts then sourcing from some official/genuine vendor in china who can get them for 10-50% less. etc..

Do they though? Or are you just assuming that.

Yeah, it's just an assumption, but an educated one.
I sometimes see minor differences in parts from PCBA builds vs the parts I get from digikey myself.
Even when the BOM says digikey as the only valid source for that part.
It's usually something like the text on the part is slightly more misaligned than normal, or the text is missing, or the color is slightly off.
Greek letter 'Psi' (not Pounds per Square Inch)
 

Offline Mangozac

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Re: Getting turnkey PCBA to source parts from lowest priced official vendor
« Reply #6 on: September 26, 2021, 12:19:01 am »
What I suspect normally happens is they quote/charge the digikey price for the parts then sourcing from some official/genuine vendor in china who can get them for 10-50% less. etc..
That's pretty much standard practice for Chinese CMs and frankly I think it would be rare for a CM anywhere to never do something like this. If you accept their total quoted cost then the sourcing is their business (so long as it's following your instructions regarding authorised distributors).

If you think they're sourcing non-genuine parts that is another issue altogether. When we were having our manufacturing done in China any parts we were particularly concerned about for grey market, etc. we would have them send through photos of the factory packaging labels showing manufacturing date codes and similar info. Sure, this can still be faked but the only way you can have 100% assurance is to employ your own person on the ground there.
 

Offline ANTALIFE

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Re: Getting turnkey PCBA to source parts from lowest priced official vendor
« Reply #7 on: September 26, 2021, 11:24:34 pm »
Yea as others have said, you are paying for an assembled product so you generally won't have much control over specifying where parts or bare boards have to come from. If you really want to have some control over the parts you could provide the kit yourself, but be wary of additional handling charges 

Offline djacobow

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Re: Getting turnkey PCBA to source parts from lowest priced official vendor
« Reply #8 on: September 27, 2021, 01:31:46 am »
I've had moderately good luck with PCBWay simply by annotating their quote with prices for parts that I've found at lcsc, Ali, etc, and sending it back to them. About 2/3 of the time, they say "fine." Be sure to send them links to the .cn websites, not the "foreign" ones. I don't speak Chinese to read those sites, but the part numbers and prices are easy enough to decode.
 
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Online thm_w

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Re: Getting turnkey PCBA to source parts from lowest priced official vendor
« Reply #9 on: September 27, 2021, 09:11:33 pm »
Yeah, it's just an assumption, but an educated one.
I sometimes see minor differences in parts from PCBA builds vs the parts I get from digikey myself.
Even when the BOM says digikey as the only valid source for that part.
It's usually something like the text on the part is slightly more misaligned than normal, or the text is missing, or the color is slightly off.

Sounds like they are using counterfeit/refurbed/NOS parts, which is a whole other issue than "sourcing the genuine parts directly from the supplier" no?
I had assumed you were talking about a NA assembler. This is basically expected from a discount (presumably) China assembler as its more difficult to import parts from digikey into china AFAIK.

It would be a simple task to ask them to provide the digikey receipts for traceability of the parts installed on the board.
 

Offline Gribo

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Re: Getting turnkey PCBA to source parts from lowest priced official vendor
« Reply #10 on: September 28, 2021, 04:19:50 pm »
Certain markets and certifications require single site sourcing (automotive, medical), you pay for it though.
If you are really concerned with fakes and the CM margins (between 5% to 20% depends on the CM), you can source the parts yourself - from my experience, it is the more expensive option.
I am available for freelance work.
 

Offline blundar

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Re: Getting turnkey PCBA to source parts from lowest priced official vendor
« Reply #11 on: October 05, 2021, 02:52:13 am »
I've drop shipped from lcsc to king credie.  easy.  painless.

shipping in from outside china?  I imagine that would be far more difficult.
 

Online 48X24X48X

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Re: Getting turnkey PCBA to source parts from lowest priced official vendor
« Reply #12 on: October 05, 2021, 05:18:13 am »
I've drop shipped from lcsc to king credie.  easy.  painless.

shipping in from outside china?  I imagine that would be far more difficult.
Ship within China, order has to be made in RMB. If in USD, there will be VAT charges.

Import from outside has VAT and handling fee too plus some documentation for the custom to look at. If can prove product is for export, partial of the VAT will be refunded and again some handling fee will be involved.
 

Offline wraper

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Re: Getting turnkey PCBA to source parts from lowest priced official vendor
« Reply #13 on: October 05, 2021, 07:20:45 am »
Ship within China, order has to be made in RMB. If in USD, there will be VAT charges.
Makes no sense. VAT is charged on internal purchases within the country and not on exports. Wouldn't it be changed regardless, or not charged on USD if seller makes it look like export?
 

Online 48X24X48X

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Re: Getting turnkey PCBA to source parts from lowest priced official vendor
« Reply #14 on: October 05, 2021, 07:50:02 am »
Ship within China, order has to be made in RMB. If in USD, there will be VAT charges.
Makes no sense. VAT is charged on internal purchases within the country and not on exports. Wouldn't it be changed regardless, or not charged on USD if seller makes it look like export?
In short, RMB -> domestic usage, USD -> export. Because if you pay USD without VAT 13% then the supplier must export the goods as they cannot ship to the PCBA factory directly.
If you pay RMB include VAT 13% then the supplier can ship these goods to the factory. This is true with proper part manufacturer, for example Quectel. Of course, if you use a reseller or distributor in China, they can do all sort of stuff although by right they are not licensed to sell to outside of China.
 

Offline wraper

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Re: Getting turnkey PCBA to source parts from lowest priced official vendor
« Reply #15 on: October 05, 2021, 08:01:16 am »
Ship within China, order has to be made in RMB. If in USD, there will be VAT charges.
Makes no sense. VAT is charged on internal purchases within the country and not on exports. Wouldn't it be changed regardless, or not charged on USD if seller makes it look like export?
In short, RMB -> domestic usage, USD -> export. Because if you pay USD without VAT 13% then the supplier must export the goods as they cannot ship to the PCBA factory directly.
If you pay RMB include VAT 13% then the supplier can ship these goods to the factory. This is true with proper part manufacturer, for example Quectel. Of course, if you use a reseller or distributor in China, they can do all sort of stuff although by right they are not licensed to sell to outside of China.
Statements in your last 2 posts are an opposite of each other.
 

Offline mon2

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Re: Getting turnkey PCBA to source parts from lowest priced official vendor
« Reply #16 on: October 06, 2021, 12:19:12 pm »
Suggest to the op to work with a truly certified ISO PCBA shop. One that we can recommend (again) is Kingford PCB (details copied below; they automotive & medical certifed). Have had a number of jobs produced by them for the bare PCBs and PCBAs. They do frown upon you shipping someone else's PCBs and/or parts for the job as there needs to be a separation line on the responsibility of a failure (if there is one). Having said this, we had to jump in a few times when they could not source some of our goofy parts. We have been to China many times and have good contacts for assorted electronic parts. A few we did drop ship to their factory in Shenzhen. We had to both agree that if there was a fault, we had to debug the parts which we sourced. They say that they charge extra for testing. However, from our experience, they powered up each and every PCBA (500 in this lot) to validate it was working as designed. It was a USB dongle and we showed them how to test on Windows. Every PCBA was enumerated with success. Only one PCBA had a slightly lifted USB through hole connector which was caught when we attempted to stuff into our aluminum enclosure. The outsourcing we considered to be 100% success.

They do prefer to source from Digikey / Mouser and will indicate this in their spreadsheet with costings. Times are very strange and parts are quite scarce so your mileage may vary.

If we can help (and you are not our competition :), then we have no problem in assisting to source parts out of Asia. At the very least can share some contacts you can ping to hunt down the components.

They build product for AMD (saw their large multilayer PCB on display at one of the past electronic trade fairs in HK - gorgeous fan out PCB). Recently they have moved to a new and larger factory. The PCBA assembly fee was in the $1-$1.50 USD range for this 500 pc run (parts & setup extra). Granted that we asked them to source most of the components - in the end, the savings were still there as compared to local PCBA fees. These days, we build in house as our SMT line is fully operational. For sure you can scrape to lower cost PCBA shops but they will not be ISO certified and the risks will increase.

Contact:

Daphne Tian (Ms.)
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