Electronics > Manufacturing & Assembly

Here we go again, Neoden4 vs CHMT48VB vs HW-T4SG-50F

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satoshi:
Our situation. We are storing up parts in our warehouse that can't be then shipped to our PCBA in China as the customs are known to be imposible. We are buying a machine to assemble the boards, about 1000 a year, at least until the shortages storm is over. But who knows, we might like it and ditch the PCBA for good.

We've done some boards by hand with our stencil and oven so we know we are able to successfully build the boards but we need a little bit more speed as building 1000 boards at 1.5 hours per board is not going to be possible for us. I will be happy with 10-5 minutes per board (about 90 components per board) so speed is not a problem for us, any PNP would do the job speed-wise.

We are doing 0402 passives and LQFP64 0.5mm pitch and our boards would use around 40 reels of 8mm, and a couple of 12mm and 24mm. Half of the bards use 0603 and we simply have 3 designs.

It is our intention to buy cut tape for many components to avoid the re-reel fee.

Among all the low end market for PNP we are undeceive between Charmhigh CHMT48VB and Neoden 4, both well known already (HW-T4SG-50F is also in the list but people seem very frustrated with the software)

In essence Neoden 4 is twice the price when matching the feeders the CHMT48VB includes, in part because where CHMT48VB uses a simple guide, Neoden 4 needs a mechanism with a motor an electronics.

A drawback of the CHMT48VB is it only supports 2 nozzles and since I have no experience with PNP I am not sure if it'll be a limiting factor. Having to switch the nozzle in the middle of a job doesn't sound like a good idea. We have a few big components such as an STM32L4 and a Sierra Wireless snap in socket

CHMT48VB is stuffed with more 'feeders', that is good. If we pick the Neoden4 we are going to need to use trays a lot more.

So the basic question is, is it worth paying twice as much and getting the Neoden 4. We can afford both but I'd like to use our money as wisely as possible.


PS: I am aware there are many threads about Neoden4 but I wanted to create a new one narrowing it down to directly comparing it with the CHMT48VB

EDIT: I include HW-T4SG-50F in the tittle.

Rat_Patrol:
I have 2 of the 48VBs.

I would not go smaller than 0805. Even with vision on, it is not extremely precise. Most of it I think is the crazy acceleration they have on the kinematics, WAAAAAAY to aggressive. I even asked CS if those values could be adjusted, but crickets. Even turning down the speed for the component, the acceleration is far too fast. My guess is this causes the chips to move on the nozzles. I've thought about trying to install a better vacuum source, but I haven't felt like tearing down the machine to do this. I'll probably limp through until I finally decide to get better machines.
The converter software is flaming hot garbage, that is on fire, and burning. It is BAD. You have to basically go through every component to get it right, and even getting it to import and organize the data properly is a PITA.
The feeders aren't terribly reliable, but I have developed techniques to keep them going as well as possible, but figure on baby sitting the machine while it is being used and correcting the feeding faults.
The AI for the vision messes up the orientation of SOT23 packages here and there randomly.

No experience with the Neoden, but I needed the capacity of the 48VBs, so that is what I got.

NO MATTER WHAT I would HIGHLY recommend getting setup with Agnos PCB for their inspection software. You do need high speed internet, but use it prior to reflow to check all components for proper placement. We use it, and it is awesome.

48X24X48X:

--- Quote ---HW-T4SG-50F is also in the list but people seem very frustrated with the software
--- End quote ---
Watch my videos, it might prove that opinion totally wrong.
Also read my blog post on my journey on buying a P&P machine.
The rest, you have to decide on your own.

satoshi:

--- Quote from: 48X24X48X on March 31, 2022, 05:30:00 pm ---
--- Quote ---HW-T4SG-50F is also in the list but people seem very frustrated with the software
--- End quote ---
Watch my videos, it might prove that opinion totally wrong.
Also read my blog post on my journey on buying a P&P machine.
The rest, you have to decide on your own.

--- End quote ---
Hello Phang, I read your post a long time ago and it is in fact how I discovered HWGC, not only that I have in front of me a proforma invoice for a HW-T4SG-50F but my experience when dealing with HWGC has not been very good, they want to "sell, sell, sell, yes amigo, good, good" (just joking a bit, I know they mean well and admire their effort) no matter what but pay little attention to what you need. You have to figure out on your own. I met a guy totally frustrated with his SMT550 (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCL3Smd5EZwElS7Fostu92xA), he usually posts here https://groups.google.com/u/2/g/desktop-pick-and-place and since I think the software is similar I started to be reluctant.
Just as an example HWGC was not even able to understand my question when I wanted to know how many trays I can have.


I was hoping the Neoden 4 is a better polished machine (I know it is not perfect by reading posts here) but HW-T4SG-50F with electrical feeders is at the same price point of a Neoden 4 and if it is a better buy it'd be stupid not to buy it. Maybe you can help me make up my mind.

Still, I read opposing opinions on almost every single machine I try to read about.

jmelson:

--- Quote from: satoshi on March 31, 2022, 04:54:29 pm ---A drawback of the CHMT48VB is it only supports 2 nozzles and since I have no experience with PNP I am not sure if it'll be a limiting factor. Having to switch the nozzle in the middle of a job doesn't sound like a good idea. We have a few big components such as an STM32L4 and a Sierra Wireless snap in socket
--- End quote ---
Years ago I had a Philips CSM84 with no nozzle change ability.  Now, I have a Quad QSA30 with auto nozzle changer.  It makes a HUGE difference, the machine can swap nozzles in a couple seconds and then use the best nozzle for different size parts.
I can't advise on specifics of the Chinese machines.
Jon

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