Here we go again, Neoden4 vs CHMT48VB vs HW-T4SG-50F

[satoshi]

Our situation. We are storing up parts in our warehouse that can't be then shipped to our PCBA in China as the customs are known to be imposible. We are buying a machine to assemble the boards, about 1000 a year, at least until the shortages storm is over. But who knows, we might like it and ditch the PCBA for good.

We've done some boards by hand with our stencil and oven so we know we are able to successfully build the boards but we need a little bit more speed as building 1000 boards at 1.5 hours per board is not going to be possible for us. I will be happy with 10-5 minutes per board (about 90 components per board) so speed is not a problem for us, any PNP would do the job speed-wise.

We are doing 0402 passives and LQFP64 0.5mm pitch and our boards would use around 40 reels of 8mm, and a couple of 12mm and 24mm. Half of the bards use 0603 and we simply have 3 designs.

It is our intention to buy cut tape for many components to avoid the re-reel fee.

Among all the low end market for PNP we are undeceive between Charmhigh CHMT48VB and Neoden 4, both well known already (HW-T4SG-50F is also in the list but people seem very frustrated with the software)

In essence Neoden 4 is twice the price when matching the feeders the CHMT48VB includes, in part because where CHMT48VB uses a simple guide, Neoden 4 needs a mechanism with a motor an electronics.

A drawback of the CHMT48VB is it only supports 2 nozzles and since I have no experience with PNP I am not sure if it'll be a limiting factor. Having to switch the nozzle in the middle of a job doesn't sound like a good idea. We have a few big components such as an STM32L4 and a Sierra Wireless snap in socket

CHMT48VB is stuffed with more 'feeders', that is good. If we pick the Neoden4 we are going to need to use trays a lot more.

So the basic question is, is it worth paying twice as much and getting the Neoden 4. We can afford both but I'd like to use our money as wisely as possible.


PS: I am aware there are many threads about Neoden4 but I wanted to create a new one narrowing it down to directly comparing it with the CHMT48VB

EDIT: I include HW-T4SG-50F in the tittle.

[Rat_Patrol]

I have 2 of the 48VBs.

I would not go smaller than 0805. Even with vision on, it is not extremely precise. Most of it I think is the crazy acceleration they have on the kinematics, WAAAAAAY to aggressive. I even asked CS if those values could be adjusted, but crickets. Even turning down the speed for the component, the acceleration is far too fast. My guess is this causes the chips to move on the nozzles. I've thought about trying to install a better vacuum source, but I haven't felt like tearing down the machine to do this. I'll probably limp through until I finally decide to get better machines.
The converter software is flaming hot garbage, that is on fire, and burning. It is BAD. You have to basically go through every component to get it right, and even getting it to import and organize the data properly is a PITA.
The feeders aren't terribly reliable, but I have developed techniques to keep them going as well as possible, but figure on baby sitting the machine while it is being used and correcting the feeding faults.
The AI for the vision messes up the orientation of SOT23 packages here and there randomly.

No experience with the Neoden, but I needed the capacity of the 48VBs, so that is what I got.

NO MATTER WHAT I would HIGHLY recommend getting setup with Agnos PCB for their inspection software. You do need high speed internet, but use it prior to reflow to check all components for proper placement. We use it, and it is awesome.

[48X24X48X]

HW-T4SG-50F is also in the list but people seem very frustrated with the software

Watch my videos, it might prove that opinion totally wrong.
Also read my blog post on my journey on buying a P&P machine.
The rest, you have to decide on your own.

[satoshi]

HW-T4SG-50F is also in the list but people seem very frustrated with the software

Watch my videos, it might prove that opinion totally wrong.
Also read my blog post on my journey on buying a P&P machine.
The rest, you have to decide on your own.

Hello Phang, I read your post a long time ago and it is in fact how I discovered HWGC, not only that I have in front of me a proforma invoice for a HW-T4SG-50F but my experience when dealing with HWGC has not been very good, they want to "sell, sell, sell, yes amigo, good, good" (just joking a bit, I know they mean well and admire their effort) no matter what but pay little attention to what you need. You have to figure out on your own. I met a guy totally frustrated with his SMT550 (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCL3Smd5EZwElS7Fostu92xA), he usually posts here https://groups.google.com/u/2/g/desktop-pick-and-place and since I think the software is similar I started to be reluctant.
Just as an example HWGC was not even able to understand my question when I wanted to know how many trays I can have.


I was hoping the Neoden 4 is a better polished machine (I know it is not perfect by reading posts here) but HW-T4SG-50F with electrical feeders is at the same price point of a Neoden 4 and if it is a better buy it'd be stupid not to buy it. Maybe you can help me make up my mind.

Still, I read opposing opinions on almost every single machine I try to read about.

[jmelson]

A drawback of the CHMT48VB is it only supports 2 nozzles and since I have no experience with PNP I am not sure if it'll be a limiting factor. Having to switch the nozzle in the middle of a job doesn't sound like a good idea. We have a few big components such as an STM32L4 and a Sierra Wireless snap in socket

Years ago I had a Philips CSM84 with no nozzle change ability.  Now, I have a Quad QSA30 with auto nozzle changer.  It makes a HUGE difference, the machine can swap nozzles in a couple seconds and then use the best nozzle for different size parts.
I can't advise on specifics of the Chinese machines.
Jon

[48X24X48X]

HW-T4SG-50F is also in the list but people seem very frustrated with the software

Watch my videos, it might prove that opinion totally wrong.
Also read my blog post on my journey on buying a P&P machine.
The rest, you have to decide on your own.

Hello Phang, I read your post a long time ago and it is in fact how I discovered HWGC, not only that I have in front of me a proforma invoice for a HW-T4SG-50F but my experience when dealing with HWGC has not been very good, they want to "sell, sell, sell, yes amigo, good, good" (just joking a bit, I know they mean well and admire their effort) no matter what but pay little attention to what you need. You have to figure out on your own. I met a guy totally frustrated with his SMT550 (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCL3Smd5EZwElS7Fostu92xA), he usually posts here https://groups.google.com/u/2/g/desktop-pick-and-place and since I think the software is similar I started to be reluctant.
Just as an example HWGC was not even able to understand my question when I wanted to know how many trays I can have.


I was hoping the Neoden 4 is a better polished machine (I know it is not perfect by reading posts here) but HW-T4SG-50F with electrical feeders is at the same price point of a Neoden 4 and if it is a better buy it'd be stupid not to buy it. Maybe you can help me make up my mind.

Still, I read opposing opinions on almost every single machine I try to read about.

John Plocer hangs around this forum too. That was his early days of using the machine and the software, I'm sure he is well versed with it now. It also doesn't help with him buying through YX. Of course, back then HWGC haven't yet sell directly to international customer. Even myself bought through a reseller called Beijing Glichn. Liu of HWGC was PITA at first when he copied my videos but eventually we became friend. He is very good in supporting the customers. Never he failed to give me a solution with detailed video whenever I have a question. And only Liu of HWGC is the real HWGC sales person. The rest are reseller. So, your mileage of support might be different (this is why you are hearing lots of complain).

On Neoden4, I was one of the very first few who saw the machine in flesh back in Hangzhou before it was released in 2015 (again read by blog post on this trip too). I would say, if it is 2015 now, maybe yes. But, it's 2022 now and there's plenty of better options and catered more towards industrial use machine around just like the T4 and A4 of Kayo. There are many more machine makers in China that makes really good but way much larger machine in China too but I'm leaving that for another day.

Just 2 important points, get a 4-head machine at least and removable feeders. With 4-head, you can do your job in 1 go (1 nozzle for 0402, 1 for 0603-1206, 1 for SOT, 1 for the larger items like your LQFP, TQFP, SOIC, switches, connectors). Myself wish I had a 6-nozzle machine. And feeders, if you have a crap feeder system, you will end up stopping and fixing the problem throughout your job run. Feeder should be reliable and consistent. The T4 support both Yamaha CL pneumatic and electric feeder which you could use down to 0201 components. Also don't forget the maximum size your camera can do vision on your largest expected part.

And I see you are using Sierra Wireless snap in connector. The module from them are just too horrible to assemble and hence they came out with this snap in connector sighting how changeable they are across 2G, 3G and 4G. But the matter of fact is when used without it, the module assembly have ultra low production yield. I weren't able to get my prototype up using them despite doing 5 rounds of prototype revision zoomed into tiny details of mask opening, paste opening and what not. Then I heard from my regular CM in Shenzhen, they said these are notoriously low yield in their production down to about 50% based on their experience. I used many other different module brands in LGA format, never once they give me such a headache.

Last but not least, take your time to make your decision. 

[JanL]

I have to jump in.
I own both a Neoden4 (early adopter) and and HW-T4SG-50F. They are both completely different in handling and software. Neoden uses a very simple software with no major updates in functionality. HWGC provide frequent updates with lots of improvements. Operating with Neoden can be quite frustrating. If a feeder fails you can pause the machine, but you cannot move the head and if you are unlucky it doesn't leave you enough space to repair the feeder or change the reel. If you stop, you have to restart the whole job. And you have to manually disable placement for all parts already placed. This takes lot of time and is anoying. On HW-T4SG you can stop the job, take care of the feeder and continue where you stopped. And stucked feeders happened a lot on Neoden.
Installing reels on Neoden has to be done with feeders installed. There is not much space and sometimes it takes several tries to fix the peel tape. With externals feeders everything can be done on a table with enough space. This is much more comfortable. Even the pneumatic feeders are more reliable than the electric ones on Neoden. I did often get so frustrated ...

Another point is the camera detection of parts or fiducials. Simply: it works on HWGC and Neoden doesn't deliver. On HWGC you can change camera parameters for every part and nozzle. You even have 4 quick cams in addition to the high res cam. On neoden you have one cam and cannot change camera paramters individually. For instance on BGAs it was detected the marking point for pad 1 as a pad too. So it detected the center of the BGA wrong and placed it wrong. When you use joint detection on more than one nozzle it does not take into account the different angles it faces the parts and gets this wrong too. And the only way to change this is to individually move every single resistor or capacitor above the camera. It takes time.

I am working with HWGC for 5 month now and I am convinced by the machine. I won't go back to Neoden. It doesn't mean HW-T4SG-50F is perfect or there are no shortcomings, but iworking with it is much more comfortable.
Regards

[satoshi]

I am working with HWGC for 5 month now and I am convinced by the machine. I won't go back to Neoden. It doesn't mean HW-T4SG-50F is perfect or there are no shortcomings, but iworking with it is much more comfortable.
Regards

Thank you very much this is making me seriously reconsider HW-T4SG-50F.

I have a question, is it possible to use cut tape with their electrical and pneumatic feeders? I know it is not the best option, but is it at least posible?



A bit off-topic:

And I see you are using Sierra Wireless snap in connector. The module from them are just too horrible to assemble and hence they came out with this snap in connector sighting how changeable they are across 2G, 3G and 4G. But the matter of fact is when used without it, the module assembly have ultra low production yield. I weren't able to get my prototype up using them despite doing 5 rounds of prototype revision zoomed into tiny details of mask opening, paste opening and what not. Then I heard from my regular CM in Shenzhen, they said these are notoriously low yield in their production down to about 50% based on their experience. I used many other different module brands in LGA format, never once they give me such a headache.

Our project has been delayed 3 years for having chosen first the HL series and now the RC (the HL reached EOL right before our launch as the 3G network is going to be deprecated). We decided to use the socket as the module is very unreliable and it is better to be able to extract it and replace it or to extract it and install it in a devboard to reprogram it or diagnose it. We've had countless of issues with that module. For example they gave us a firmware that was not working in some modules they directly sent us from their office in France. We reported a few big bugs they had in their RC series that will be solved in the next release version 9. Still I think they might be the best choice for a turn key 4G module, we tried other Chinese brands but even getting the documentation or some sample parts seemed to be imposible.

As for the assembly issues, we had the same experience but we solved it by following their temperature requirements during reflow (attached). Our modules came out of the oven with what looked like shortcuts but we were not able to see any shorts with the help of x-rays (also by the way x-ray inspection is highly discouraged by Sierra and if you must do it they give you the maximum radiation the part can be exposed to). The shortcuts were produced internally in the module and we solved it by following their profile. Their BGA is very easy to solder actually.

Once we reach some stability, we'll try to remove the socket as it is very pricy

[JanL]

I have a question, is it possible to use cut tape with their electrical and pneumatic feeders? I know it is not the best option, but is it at least posible?

You need to have a lead-in. The peel tape needy something like 20cm and the tape itself 3-4cm as a lead in for the feeders. But I use a strip feeder table for cut tape. I can post links for DIY 3D-printed versions or more stable industrial versions on Monday. One is for fixed tape width and the other adjustable.

[48X24X48X]

I have a question, is it possible to use cut tape with their electrical and pneumatic feeders? I know it is not the best option, but is it at least posible?

Yes, all you need is just a tape leader. On the pneumatic feeder, the leader tape length needed is longer but on the electrical feeder, it is shorter (you only need like 4-6 component removed) to get the holes on the tape to cling on the rotating teeth). For the peel off extension, you can get them easily from Taobao or Aliexpress like this.

we tried other Chinese brands but even getting the documentation or some sample parts seemed to be imposible.

I used Quectel for most of my cellular work for many years. They are the largest in China (world maybe?), and their product line-up is consistent and cohesive. Get a proper account sign up and for business account they will need to approve your account for some of the documents. I believe SIMCOM is also the same. In domestic China, there are even more manufacturers especially after the ASRmicro and another domestic silicon brand (I can't remember the name) came out with cheap LTE Cat 1 chipset ending the dominance of Qualcomm chipset.

[jmelson]

I have a question, is it possible to use cut tape with their electrical and pneumatic feeders? I know it is not the best option, but is it at least posible?

You need to have a lead-in. The peel tape needy something like 20cm and the tape itself 3-4cm as a lead in for the feeders. But I use a strip feeder table for cut tape. I can post links for DIY 3D-printed versions or more stable industrial versions on Monday. One is for fixed tape width and the other adjustable.

I have used cut tape on my old Philips CSM84 (Yamaha) and Quad QSA30 (Samsung).  On both of them I spliced old cover tape with masking tape, so I only had to lose the first 2 parts in the component tape.  For expensive chips, after placing a few boards, I could then back up the tape and put the parts back in the pockets.

Jon

[TankSparks]

I own the Neoden 4 since 2016 I want to make a few corrections about what was said on the Neoden 4. 
1) Yes... You can restart your job where you left off,  I've done that many times,  ( no need to disable parts arleady installed)
How to:   click panel... click part... click save....click  Start
2) I never had problems with Fiducials,
3) Joint camera image of parts on nozzle works,  Did you calibrate it?
4) latest software moves head out of the way to change reel in feeder

I've never done smaller than 0603,  I suspect that the 0402 would jump around in the tape.  I have 0603 leds that jump in tape, maybe the newer feeders are better,  I have the previous version, ordered a new one to try

My two biggest complaints are
1) I agree though that not being able to adjust brightness on the camera per part can cause wrong part outline detection.  I camplained to Neoden about that,
2) You also can't adjust number of retries per feeder,  I've lost a lot of $4 ICs because of that.  Again i begged Neoden to fix the retries

[JanL]

I own the Neoden 4 since 2016 I want to make a few corrections about what was said on the Neoden 4. 
1) Yes... You can restart your job where you left off,  I've done that many times,  ( no need to disable parts arleady installed)
How to:   click panel... click part... click save....click  Start

It is not as easy you describe: Click part - select yes or no - wait to proceed to next part. If you have already placed like 100 parts it takes forever.

2) I never had problems with Fiducials,

Lucky for you. It did not work for me.

3) Joint camera image of parts on nozzle works,  Did you calibrate it?

It close to works for very small resistors. The thicker the parts, like Cs or ferrite beads the system does not take perspective distortion into account. You can find information about that in this forum.

4) latest software moves head out of the way to change reel in feeder

Unfortunately my controller board is no longer supported by updates.

Don't take me wrong. It did hundreds of boards on the Neoden. But as I said: working with it can be frustrating.

[TankSparks]

Sorry,  I did not describe it correctly to start assembling where you left off on the Neoden 4,  Highlight panel you want to start on, highlight part you want to start on,  click save,  click start.  Thats only 3 extra mouse clicks

[48X24X48X]

Unfortunately my controller board is no longer supported by updates.

This is one of the fear I hate most with machine from China. Fortunately, all the HWGC machine from their very first belt machine is still supported in their software updates until today. Although some feature are not supported but they are never left out of the updates. This is one of the reason many of their existing old customers bought their newer machine to complement the old ones rather than getting from other brands. I believe this due to their unified software across their entire machine line-up unlike Neoden that has a mixed bags of everything (Windows, Linux, embedded MCU). This will require less resources and less platform to maintain or add features.

[JanL]

Sorry,  I did not describe it correctly to start assembling where you left off on the Neoden 4,  Highlight panel you want to start on, highlight part you want to start on,  click save,  click start.  Thats only 3 extra mouse clicks

I am sorry for being angry. There where so many frustrating moments with this machine. I never found a description for continuing work like you say. So I never tried. I will check if this is working on my firmware.
Regards

[JanL]

I forgot about the strip feeder: I use this one: https://printtec.nl/contents/de/d611_Strip_Feeder_Tray.html
You can use it for cut tape too. What I like the most is that I can use 8mm, 12mm, 16mm, 24mm etc. So even if you don't have a 24mm feeder, you can use strips from such wide tapes.
Alternativly you can have a look here for 3D-printed parts: http://malte-randt.de/strip-feeders-and-modular-tray-for-smd/
Or just google 3d printed strip feeder and you can find lots of parts.

[satoshi]

Thank you for all the responses. I was about to purchase a new Neoden4 as we need a compact size and our production is not very large but ended up picking a used Mechatronica M10V that was pretty much new.
If you are interested you can join our PNP Discord here https://discord.gg/gHTseNcCJa we have a dedicated section for Mechatronika but also Neoden and HWGC.