EEVblog Electronics Community Forum
Electronics => Manufacturing & Assembly => Topic started by: Bradlez on May 14, 2021, 03:12:38 pm
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Hi electrical engineers! I'm new to this forum but have been a long time fan of Dave and his EEVBLOG channel.
I was just wondering if anyone knows where and how I could possibly manufacture a custom LCD design as Dave has done in his custom LCD creation playlist/series https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLvOlSehNtuHvmK-VGcZ33ZuATmcNB8tvH (https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLvOlSehNtuHvmK-VGcZ33ZuATmcNB8tvH). I don't currently plan to mass produce a product, nor do I have a company. Every company I look for that manufactures segment LCDs of different sorts like Black TN displays either require that I represent on behalf of a company or plan to sell the product. Is it even remotely possible for me as an individual who only currently plans to make a prototype to make such a custom LCD? The reason I'm doing this is I don't want to go the hassle to get a full color display and trying to design a more complex PCB with more complex programming, let along, sacrifice some of the useful qualities of these basic LCDs like being easy to see under sunlight. Any ideas?
Bradlez
Edit: By the way, the design process of designing the segments to the extent Dave did in his video is not a concern for me.
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Do it yourself :)
https://youtu.be/_zoeeR3geTA
https://youtu.be/d4QFNWBSZYg
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Well considering I'm probably going to have in excess of 200 segments, oof that's going to be pretty much impossible this way. I'd like my prototype to also look professional as well. Quite a lot to ask I assume, but it's why I asked in the first place.
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Use your name as the company name, or make up a name.
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Use your name as the company name, or make up a name.
This. As for going into production, just make something up.
One way to sidestep questions like this is to say that you are a consultant just involved in design & are not involved with production schedule, volumes etc.
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The issue is if you don’t give such specifics they’ll just reject you anyways. I already tried one company without specifying how many I’m going to sell or what my production timeline would be.
I’m going to try Alibaba as Dave hinted in one of his videos. Maybe they don’t care about all of these business formalities.
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There was a thread here a couple years ago where somebody had a small run of custom LCD displays made for some kind of vintage pocket computer, have you seen that? I don't recall what the thread was called but I'm sure somebody remembers it. I recall being surprised at how inexpensive it was.
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found it, this one
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/lcd-design-is-this-good-enough/?all (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/lcd-design-is-this-good-enough/?all)
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/lcd-design-is-this-good-enough/?action=dlattach;attach=687837;image)
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Yeah that's the one. I was very impressed, prior to that I didn't think it was feasible for an individual to have a custom LCD manufactured, I assumed it was the sort of thing that cost tens of thousands of dollars to tool up.
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The issue is if you don’t give such specifics they’ll just reject you anyways. I already tried one company without specifying how many I’m going to sell or what my production timeline would be..
So just make up some figures.
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don't think of it as an advertisement, I had the experience of ordering custom displays here: https://display.by/ru/contacts.shtml
At the same time, I ordered as a private person. The only aspect, they do not undertake to make one display, but from 5 and, most likely, they can make.
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I’ve managed to successfully get a quote on alibaba. I did use a company this name though I realised I had access to, but I don’t think they cared. 250-300USD is fair right for VA?
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No, it's not "fair". They're doing this probably at cost or even a loss in the expectation they are dealing with a legitimate manufacturer who may become a paying customer.
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250USD for tooling a segment LCD is doing it at a loss!? Even in 2021? Surely for a technology this old, it can't be that expensive. How come?
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250USD for tooling a segment LCD is doing it at a loss!? Even in 2021? Surely for a technology this old, it can't be that expensive. How come?
Very likely yes. As I mentioned earlier, I was absolutely shocked that a custom LCD could be made at such a low price. If someone had asked me to guess how much it would cost for tooling I would have said $15k-$30k sounds reasonable. $250 is peanuts, for reference a friend of mine owns a machine shop and last I checked they charge $90/hr shop rate so it would have to be a trivially simple job for them to set up for $250. Custom LCDs aren't like PCBs that are made in vast quantities and panelized with potentially dozens of different layouts on each panel that are then cut apart. Even the PCBs are typically loss leaders that are funded by large production orders.
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250USD for tooling a segment LCD is doing it at a loss!? Even in 2021? Surely for a technology this old, it can't be that expensive. How come?
Very likely yes. As I mentioned earlier, I was absolutely shocked that a custom LCD could be made at such a low price. If someone had asked me to guess how much it would cost for tooling I would have said $15k-$30k sounds reasonable. $250 is peanuts, for reference a friend of mine owns a machine shop and last I checked they charge $90/hr shop rate so it would have to be a trivially simple job for them to set up for $250. Custom LCDs aren't like PCBs that are made in vast quantities and panelized with potentially dozens of different layouts on each panel that are then cut apart. Even the PCBs are typically loss leaders that are funded by large production orders.
Making simple segmented LCDs is actually quite a lot like making a PCB. They panelize them in a similar way to PCBs. If you want an LCD that fits some common size and pinout arrangements, all they have to do is make a single mask for the segment layer. If you have custom connection requirements things can get more complex, but not massively so.
$250 is cheap for making a simple custom segmented panel, but it certainly shouldn't cost anything like $15k, even with a complex custom connection scheme.
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No, it's not "fair". They're doing this probably at cost or even a loss in the expectation they are dealing with a legitimate manufacturer who may become a paying customer.
Yeah, but given those chinese companies probably sell a very LARGE number of LCDs a year, they won't go bankrupt if a few individuals just use them to make a few tens of LCDs. And I seriously doubt more than a "few" individuals order this each year. This is a very niche "hobby". Don't fret too much over it really.
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No, it's not "fair". They're doing this probably at cost or even a loss in the expectation they are dealing with a legitimate manufacturer who may become a paying customer.
Yeah, but given those chinese companies probably sell a very LARGE number of LCDs a year, they won't go bankrupt if a few individuals just use them to make a few tens of LCDs. And I seriously doubt more than a "few" individuals order this each year. This is a very niche "hobby". Don't fret too much over it really.
They produce huge numbers of LCD designs that never reach mass production. Having your own LCD made with little intention of ever using more than a few hundred is common. I assume they price these jobs so they at least break even. The margin on mass produced segmented LCDs is very low, as its a very competitive field.
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Sure, you're not going to break the bank.
I just find it rich that someone questions whether they're getting a fair price while essentially cheating the vendor by misrepresenting themselves when they never intend to purchase more than a single unit. That's definitely not their business model.
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The reason I'm doing this is I don't want to go the hassle to get a full color display and trying to design a more complex PCB with more complex programming, let along, sacrifice some of the useful qualities of these basic LCDs like being easy to see under sunlight. Any ideas?
I would have thought that, for a prototype/proof of concept, you are better off with an off-the-shelf dot matrix display. You could still use a monochromatic LCD (with or without backlight) if that gives the right visibility and battery life and you don't need color. But it would give you the freedom to quickly iterate on the screen layout as you gain exerience with your prototype in practical use.
I am curious how the custom LCD design works for you on the "hassle" scale, and whether you end up ordering multiple iterations. Please keep us posted!
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In the long run my team plans to create a consumer product with these LCDs. So I don't find it kind that the other guy assumed my question was "rich" given I'm brand new to LCD design and such and have no idea of pricing other than the pricing of PCBs.
In other words, I've decided to go for a white segment on black VA display with no backlight (so the backlight is on the PCB behind diffused with some sanded acrylic in between). Will it even work, or work well at all?
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I don't currently plan to mass produce a product, nor do I have a company.
That's what you said in the OP. Sorry I "assumed" you were telling the truth, silly of me.
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Well my long term plan is different to my current plan so sorry I didn’t specify that. Either way you’re picking a fight because I’m buying a service at the price they gave me. Even if I was a hobbyist, so what? They’re an experienced manufacturer and they accepted the price. Like custom PCBs, hobbyists should be able to design their own LCDs as well. I also went the effort to make a design specification document and vector layout file to the extent Dave did in his video so it wasn’t like I was lazy and slapped a drawing a napkin, even though that’s also completely acceptable. Considering that, it felt pretty dismissive, as a new member to this forum even.
Anyways for those who wants to take this conversation seriously, I asked a question about VA panels in my last post because I don’t think I’ve ever seen one with a separate backlight.
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I don't see anyone picking a fight with you, no need to be apprehensive, some of your messages are just a little confusing. Go ahead and have the displays made, don't worry about it, you're far from being the only hobbyist who has possibly exaggerated a little as to the likelihood of being a profitable customer and who knows, if you like the services they provide you might be able to send other customers their way in the future.
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I asked a question about VA panels in my last post because I don’t think I’ve ever seen one with a separate backlight.
What do you mean by "separate" backlight? And did you possibly mean to say you have never seen a VA display without a backlight?
If you intend to operate a VA display without backlight, as I had understood from your earlier post: I would assume that it is readable, but does not look great. It will probably not give you the "cool" white-on-black look with high contrast, but will show the bright elements with lowish contrast.
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The manufacturer says they can put a backlight on the LCD itself. I assume that everything would be on the glass, so the backlight would also be on the glass. To reduce costs and give me more control, I requested for an LCD without a backlight so I can put an extremely bright one on the PCB behind the LCD itself (I will be driving the LCD via a PIC myself). From the images I’ve seen, I’ve only seen the backlight been inside the LCD glass itself so I don’t know if it’s technically possible to put one on the PCB instead like you can with TN LCDs. I’m brand new to the world of LCDs and just want to make sure I didn’t shoot myself in the foot trying to ask for that.
From what you replied, it seems like that might be fine to ask for after all?
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The manufacturer says they can put a backlight on the LCD itself. I assume that everything would be on the glass, so the backlight would also be on the glass.
The usual backlight for simple segmented displays is a fairly thick sheet of plastic, coated on the back, and bonded to the back of the LCD, which is edge lit by one or two LEDs. This gives very even illumination. Its hard to get even lighting if you put LEDs behind the panel.
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Lots of older displays put lamps (incandescent or fluorescent) behind the panel. The assembly was thick though as there was a reflector around the light source and a diffuser behind the panel.
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Years ago (decades, actually), the company I worked for here in the US had custom numeric LCD's made by a company named "Hamlin". When I did a Google search, I could find references to them, but there was no indication they are still in business.
However, my search did return "Phoenix Display International" (www.phoenixdisplay.com (http://www.phoenixdisplay.com)) which makes a wide variety of standard LCD displays and also manufactures custom designs as well.
I would expect they would not be cheap at all for a very small run of custom displays, but the only way to be sure is to contact them and find out.
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I was talking to the LCD Manfacturer and they said my design was really hard to do with the pinout out I gave them. I thought LCDs are made with two layers, one for the commons and the other for the segment pin. I showed them a workaround that I would allow in the image attached but they didn’t understand it. So I’m not sure if I don’t actually understand how the segments are internally wired to the pins.
TL;DR Does my image make sense?
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Image makes sense but better off just marking it as a separate segment and pin in your table of segments. Making a picture explaining your reasoning is more confusing.
I'm sure the segment stuff is covered in Daves vid no?
http://youtube.com/watch?v=ZYvxgl-9tNM (http://youtube.com/watch?v=ZYvxgl-9tNM)
In his case he let the mfg do the pinout.
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I’m in a really weird position. My manufacturer for some reason recreated my design I sent approximately even though I sent a layout file as a PDF in vector. How do I tell them that I can do the design only and they don’t need to remake it? What file format would the LCD manufacturers even use natively?
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Starting to understand why they don't want to deal with this hassle from a one-off buyer?
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Starting to understand why they don't want to deal with this hassle from a one-off buyer?
But that is their fault, because they don't provide any guidance or template for the specification.
And that would be so easy to do, just frickin tell us what you _really_ need!
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I’m in a really weird position. My manufacturer for some reason recreated my design I sent approximately even though I sent a layout file as a PDF in vector. How do I tell them that I can do the design only and they don’t need to remake it? What file format would the LCD manufacturers even use natively?
Pretty standard for custom LCD manufacturers to do this. Certainly all the custom LCD's we've done, they'll redraw.
Mainly done as a check for manufacturability, getting the viewing area right, sizing it for clips and that they can get they get tracking between segments OK.
We also now leave them to determine pinout, just give them a rough idea of the drivers we use. Pay the $$ and then wait for samples - they are (were!) surprisingly quick.
The last one we did had 320 segments, 92 pins (8 commons) and was about 75x60mm.
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Starting to understand why they don't want to deal with this hassle from a one-off buyer?
But that is their fault, because they don't provide any guidance or template for the specification.
And that would be so easy to do, just frickin tell us what you _really_ need!
After a lot of talking, finally they told me what internal files they used 2004 .DWG (which my Adobe Illustrator can export) and the minimum route width is 0.15mm (spacing can be ignored) . If I knew this way back I would’ve sent the engineering drawing and wired the whole thing myself knowing well what’s possible and what isn’t without much trouble. By this whole back and forth, it’s hard to effectively communicate. I think their business model is targeted more for those who literally write their designs on napkins and they do the rest.
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The reason I'm doing this is I don't want to go the hassle to get a full color display and trying to design a more complex PCB with more complex programming [...]
::)
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The reason I'm doing this is I don't want to go the hassle to get a full color display and trying to design a more complex PCB with more complex programming [...]
::)
Honestly I think this would still be easier than that as I would have to use way different microcontrollers. It would also be cheaper per unit as the LCDs I’ve seen aren’t that cheap for the size I want.
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Honestly I think this [designing a custom LCD] would still be easier than that [driving an off-the-shelf matrix LCD] as I would have to use way different microcontrollers. It would also be cheaper per unit as the LCDs I’ve seen aren’t that cheap for the size I want.
Not sure what triggers the need for "way different microcontrollers". I would assume that an off-the-shelf display would be driven via I²C or SPI, and it's been a long time since I came across a microcontroller which could not drive either of these.
I don't think you ever told us what size of LCD you are looking for, so I can't really comment on your cost argument. (Although I had assumed battery-operated device > handheld > small display.)
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Honestly I think this [designing a custom LCD] would still be easier than that [driving an off-the-shelf matrix LCD] as I would have to use way different microcontrollers. It would also be cheaper per unit as the LCDs I’ve seen aren’t that cheap for the size I want.
Not sure what triggers the need for "way different microcontrollers". I would assume that an off-the-shelf display would be driven via I²C or SPI, and it's been a long time since I came across a microcontroller which could not drive either of these.
I don't think you ever told us what size of LCD you are looking for, so I can't really comment on your cost argument. (Although I had assumed battery-operated device > handheld > small display.)
Tiny LCDs will use I2C but anything larger use MIPI DSI which requires a microcontroller that supports it. My display requirements are that it’s easily readable and large enough. It is a battery operated device and the display is around the size of the typical smartphone.
I’m using a PIC16f19186 to drive the LCD and an ARM cpu with GPS included. 2 ARM CPUs is too much for me to bear.
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Would you mind mentioning the actual display size? ::)
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Oops it’s 100mm by 50mm
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There's a whole industry built around making LCDs work with systems that would otherwise not be able to drive them or handle the graphics. Some of them can be quite expensive but if you take a Chinese example, you can have a small colour TFT touchscreen display for $20 which runs something called DGUS, you design your interface for the display and load it onto an SDcard and hook it up to your puny main controller. Creality have used this on my 3D printer, by all accounts its a bit tedious to work with but the open source community team are managing to develop new code & screens for it and several alternatives people might prefer in tandem and the results are pretty decent.
Something like this https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32825558941.html (https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32825558941.html) would be pretty easy to use, easier still of you switch from PIC to Arduino so you can use all those lovely libraries.
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I should’ve said the entire thing earlier but this has to be designed as a product that can be mass produced. It’s for an electrical engineering course I have to do, and I was thinking maybe hitting two birds with one stone and taking it further to actual commercial production (not mass as not sure if small runs would even succeed). So using anything prebuilt like a display already with software and controller or an arduino is a big no. It would also make the product look weird even if enclosed and be an issue in the supply chain if something were to go wrong.
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I should’ve said the entire thing earlier but this has to be designed as a product that can be mass produced. It’s for an electrical engineering course I have to do, and I was thinking maybe hitting two birds with one stone and taking it further to actual commercial production (not mass as not sure if small runs would even succeed). So using anything prebuilt like a display already with software and controller or an arduino is a big no. It would also make the product look weird even if enclosed and be an issue in the supply chain if something were to go wrong.
My 3d printer - mass produced. DGUS screens, mass produced as are "4D systems". Arduino does not have to mean you buying a nano module and sticking it on a motherboard, literally thousands of "arduino" based commercial projects out there, it's just an ecosystem that exists to be used. I don't think there's much commercial reason to use an old school custom mono LCD today, it would be an aesthetic, technical or power based decision.
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I should’ve said the entire thing earlier but this has to be designed as a product that can be mass produced. It’s for an electrical engineering course I have to do, and I was thinking maybe hitting two birds with one stone and taking it further to actual commercial production (not mass as not sure if small runs would even succeed). So using anything prebuilt like a display already with software and controller or an arduino is a big no. It would also make the product look weird even if enclosed and be an issue in the supply chain if something were to go wrong.
My 3d printer - mass produced. DGUS screens, mass produced as are "4D systems". Arduino does not have to mean you buying a nano module and sticking it on a motherboard, literally thousands of "arduino" based commercial projects out there, it's just an ecosystem that exists to be used. I don't think there's much commercial reason to use an old school custom mono LCD today, it would be an aesthetic, technical or power based decision.
I think my reasons fit all of those three criteria lol. I’m not using a normal 7 segment display, I’m using a 16 segment display I custom designed myself. It’s a handheld device so I can potentially save power with my PIC and the segment display. A VA display also has way more contrast too.
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Besides I’ve actually learnt a lot about the design and manufacturing process of segment LCDs, and it seems like only one other person on this forum has posted about this.
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_zoeeR3geTA (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_zoeeR3geTA)
Someone already posted this. It’s not going to work for the complicated design I want to make.
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Doing this for the learning, and to comply with the requirements of your electronics course, are both perfectly valid reasons of course. Fingers crossed that the esthetics, packaging and power use of the display and back-illumination meet your expectations once things come together!
What is the timeline for your project? Could you absorb manufacturing delays, or the need to have a second revision of the display produced?