Author Topic: Imdes Jumbo vapour phase oven  (Read 3585 times)

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Offline trevwhite

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Imdes Jumbo vapour phase oven
« on: September 16, 2021, 10:33:07 am »
I read through the old threads on Imdes ovens and it appeared the first version worked but had issues with construction and electronics. I noticed though that the discussions seem to be based on an older version. From this YouTube video the interface board is different using an lcd display and there are now parameters such as anti tombstone. I wondered if Imdes had listened to the earlier reviews and redesigned it but did not make much effort to let everyone know it has been redesigned?





Has anyone got the oven in the video and if so any review? I have also attached an image of the unit with the newer style display and button layout.


Thanks


Trev
« Last Edit: September 16, 2021, 10:37:53 am by trevwhite »
 

Offline m98

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Re: Imdes Jumbo vapour phase oven
« Reply #1 on: September 16, 2021, 10:21:38 pm »
From the video, this thing still looks like a hobby project.
 

Online KaneTW

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Re: Imdes Jumbo vapour phase oven
« Reply #2 on: September 16, 2021, 10:31:39 pm »
If you need it for anything beyond tinkering, get a ASSCON or similar. Yes, it'll cost 8/20k for a VP310/VP510 including galden etc. But you'll get something actually usable and supported.

If you need it for hobby stuff, DIY it. It's a neat project if you have the time.
 

Offline trevwhite

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Re: Imdes Jumbo vapour phase oven
« Reply #3 on: September 16, 2021, 10:46:55 pm »
It looks rough around the edges but we are not sending people to Mars. This thing just heats up some Galden..

It can't heat above the temp of the Galden so for me the potential issues are tombstones from too fast a heat cycle and Galden escaping and causing extra cost per cycle.

I have had private feedback from someone that indicates some degree of tombstoning but otherwise they have had good results.

Be great to hear from others who are using one.

 

Offline SMTech

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Re: Imdes Jumbo vapour phase oven
« Reply #4 on: September 17, 2021, 09:07:57 am »
 

Offline trevwhite

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Re: Imdes Jumbo vapour phase oven
« Reply #5 on: September 17, 2021, 09:29:20 am »
I noticed they have a comparison table, have attached. The Imdes unit is way way cheaper really and the table does not compare the final results, its more of a feature comparison table.












 

Offline Marco

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Re: Imdes Jumbo vapour phase oven
« Reply #6 on: September 17, 2021, 11:40:45 am »
Don't the pro machines heat even faster by lowering the PCB into the vapour?
 

Online wraper

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Re: Imdes Jumbo vapour phase oven
« Reply #7 on: September 17, 2021, 11:46:43 am »
Has anyone got the oven in the video and if so any review? I have also attached an image of the unit with the newer style display and button layout.
I've got a smaller MINI CONDENS-IT version when it was sold at half of the current price and even for that money is was a complete trash. Jumbo is so expensive, it's even funny that people pay this much for a Horeca stainless steel container with a heater attached on the bottom. Construction is a complete joke FWIW.
« Last Edit: September 17, 2021, 12:05:07 pm by wraper »
 

Online wraper

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Re: Imdes Jumbo vapour phase oven
« Reply #8 on: September 17, 2021, 11:54:12 am »
Does in look familiar? Top lid BTW is just standard Horeca GN lid with a hole cut in the middle and piece of glass glued on and handle attached.
https://www.horecatraders.com/en/bartscher-gn-containers-1-3-gn-german-quality-9524675.html
« Last Edit: September 17, 2021, 12:04:43 pm by wraper »
 

Offline trevwhite

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Re: Imdes Jumbo vapour phase oven
« Reply #9 on: September 17, 2021, 12:58:06 pm »
I am not bothered if they sourced a container cheap. I am bothered if it works repeatedly. Does it matter what size boards go in it? Does one profile work for all boards? Are people able to use it to get good results.
 

Offline Siriusx86

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Re: Imdes Jumbo vapour phase oven
« Reply #10 on: September 17, 2021, 01:08:52 pm »
Year ago I also want purchased Imdes Jumbo. The main reason was save my time and not building it 2nd suitable size for large pcb panels and last reason was price. Once I saw the quality of product inside I completely decline the idea to invest such many to Jumbo.. Once I have 20k I will definitely purchasing ascon or IBL oven to save my time.
So main jumbo problems:
1) Slow cycle time 25+min. S pear day you can soldered just 10 panels or so..
2) Liquid galden drops on PCB after cycle.
3) poor quality
4) price / quality
5) passive cooling system

So I build for myself vapor phase soldering unit for fraction of cost.

If you wanna follow my progress on the project I am on Instagram @vapor_phase_soldering

I designed simple power unit compatible with Arduino socket  so it can be connect to stmmucleo discover arduino kits.
Originally it was design for stm32f7508 discovery with nice LCD and touch panel. Power unit is very simple and contain only necessary component to run heating element, measure temperature (k type thermocouple using max chip ) beeper for sound signalization, and some extra power channels for FAN, water coiling and so on

I can make some video about progress, and how it works, talk about weak spots and so on. 
Also I can provide power unit compatible with arduino socket or complete set with  smt kit and current version of SW.

About my SW:
- It has 3 custom profile.
- Each profile is dynamic so if you put inside large pcb with higher thermal mass  it automatically correct for it.
- Profile recovery after shutdown.
- end cycle alarm - ready for next load.
- Automatic profile jump to current temperature.

more picture is on istagram.



 
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Online wraper

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Re: Imdes Jumbo vapour phase oven
« Reply #11 on: September 17, 2021, 01:12:35 pm »
By default you are almost guaranteed to have a lot of tombstoning due to lack of proper temperature profile or even adequate temperature sensing. The way temperature sensor is located very close to the wall basically eliminates sensing temperature which would be similar to PCB temperature. Also you will get galden drops on the board since it will condensate on the lid as this garbage do not have a cooling coil which prevents galden reaching to the top and escaping. Also you cannot really take it apart, it stitched with pop rivets everywhere. Not to say someone who designed this has barely any knowledge about electronics. Nor CE certification bears any compliance with safety standards, since this thing is electrically unsafe  from what I've seen. It probably poses a fire hazard too as thermal switch is mounted in a way that it does not trip in absence of galden. Got bitten by it myself when I forgot that I removed it. PCB turned into a black smoking cracker, yet temperature sensor did not even reach the temperature to switch off the heater.
« Last Edit: September 17, 2021, 01:14:24 pm by wraper »
 

Offline trevwhite

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Re: Imdes Jumbo vapour phase oven
« Reply #12 on: September 17, 2021, 02:37:59 pm »
@wraper: Are the drops bad news? Do they create cold spots during the vapour phase? Do they create bad solder areas? The latest version of the unit has some paramaters such as anti-tombstone but I have no idea how well it works.


@Siriusx86: Impressive work building you own. It is just not a project I could take on. If you were selling a kit and it works I would be interested to know the price? Have you got your system all working nicely? Any information you would like to share about your system would be very interesting.


 

Online wraper

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Re: Imdes Jumbo vapour phase oven
« Reply #13 on: September 17, 2021, 03:28:45 pm »
@wraper: Are the drops bad news? Do they create cold spots during the vapour phase? Do they create bad solder areas? The latest version of the unit has some paramaters such as anti-tombstone but I have no idea how well it works.


@Siriusx86: Impressive work building you own. It is just not a project I could take on. If you were selling a kit and it works I would be interested to know the price? Have you got your system all working nicely? Any information you would like to share about your system would be very interesting.



Drops do not affect soldering since they appear after reflow is done. But you will get wet boards covered with galden. If you do not clean the lid between runs, then they may drop onto PCB before reflow and as they are also contaminated with flux vapors, you will get dark spots on pcb with cooked flux residues which are almost impossible to clean.
 

Offline trevwhite

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Re: Imdes Jumbo vapour phase oven
« Reply #14 on: September 17, 2021, 03:31:56 pm »
Thanks, wraper, that is really useful information.
 

Offline trevwhite

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Re: Imdes Jumbo vapour phase oven
« Reply #15 on: September 19, 2021, 02:01:29 pm »
I have an Imdes Jumbo coming for evaluation next week. I have it on sale or return for a much lower price than advertised as I believe it was a unit left on the shelf for a few years and the seller just wants to get rid of it now. I was of the assumption that I would not need to mess with profiles and that regardless of board size, it would just do its thing. It seems now though that there is still a requirement to tinker with the profiles?


If it has the odd tombstone then I can live with that. If I need to wipe the lid before use each time, I can live with that. If it takes 25mins per cycle that is quite a long time and I am not sure if that is a problem or not yet. Is there anything else with these units that people think might actually stop it from producing a proper soldering job? Time is against me really and so for me the money is not so big an issue if it works okay.


Trev
 

Offline trevwhite

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Re: Imdes Jumbo vapour phase oven
« Reply #16 on: September 20, 2021, 01:32:43 pm »
The machine arrived and construction is 'unique'. 

The thermocouple is in completely the wrong place. I adapted this and put it on the actual board I was soldering and this worked very well on the heating up cycle.

The cooling down phase is extremely slow. I need to see if that can be improved easily. I think having the unit on a bench is limiting the air flow getting to the fans underneath.



 

Offline trevwhite

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Re: Imdes Jumbo vapour phase oven
« Reply #17 on: September 20, 2021, 01:34:49 pm »
I opened up the control box. The electronics is a complete butcher job based on Arduino but this does suggest it is easily hackable.
 

Offline trevwhite

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Re: Imdes Jumbo vapour phase oven
« Reply #18 on: September 20, 2021, 01:36:48 pm »
Close up of the Arduino nano board
 

Offline blopblop

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Re: Imdes Jumbo vapour phase oven
« Reply #19 on: September 21, 2021, 06:53:31 am »
Could you share pictures of the heating element(s) ? I'm curious to see what kind they used and how they fitted it.
 

Offline cgroen

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Re: Imdes Jumbo vapour phase oven
« Reply #20 on: September 21, 2021, 08:01:02 am »
Thats some "interesting" traces and routing :popcorn:
PS: Good luck with that contraption, hope it works out ok for you!
« Last Edit: September 21, 2021, 08:02:50 am by cgroen »
 

Offline trevwhite

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Re: Imdes Jumbo vapour phase oven
« Reply #21 on: September 21, 2021, 01:07:45 pm »
I am quite surprised they did not have the skills to create a proper control board for it. It does make you wonder their level of general understanding of the whole process.


I was hoping with a few tweaks it might do the job but starting to feel like I might be polishing a turd and paying for the pleasure. I will do some temperature profiles with it in a few days and see what it can do before likely making the decision to return it.


I shall try and get more photos of the insides as well when I do



 
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Offline trevwhite

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Re: Imdes Jumbo vapour phase oven
« Reply #22 on: September 22, 2021, 12:08:07 pm »
The unit has a metal heater plate bolted to the tray and 6 fans used for cooling. I think if the unit is on a normal bench it will limit the air flow. I think it needs good space underneath to get optimum  cooling from this setup.
 
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Offline cgroen

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Re: Imdes Jumbo vapour phase oven
« Reply #23 on: September 22, 2021, 12:22:09 pm »
This is (also) nuts. The blowers will be severely limited by the small distance to the bench!
 

Offline trevwhite

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Re: Imdes Jumbo vapour phase oven
« Reply #24 on: September 22, 2021, 12:30:50 pm »
Maybe putting it on something like this may well improve things a lot.

 


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