Author Topic: Imdes Jumbo vapour phase oven (Read 8270 times)

trevwhite · « **on:** September 16, 2021, 10:33:07 am »

I read through the old threads on Imdes ovens and it appeared the first version worked but had issues with construction and electronics. I noticed though that the discussions seem to be based on an older version. From this YouTube video the interface board is different using an lcd display and there are now parameters such as anti tombstone. I wondered if Imdes had listened to the earlier reviews and redesigned it but did not make much effort to let everyone know it has been redesigned?

Has anyone got the oven in the video and if so any review? I have also attached an image of the unit with the newer style display and button layout.

Thanks

Trev

m98 · « **Reply #1 on:** September 16, 2021, 10:21:38 pm »

From the video, this thing still looks like a hobby project.

KaneTW · « **Reply #2 on:** September 16, 2021, 10:31:39 pm »

If you need it for anything beyond tinkering, get a ASSCON or similar. Yes, it'll cost 8/20k for a VP310/VP510 including galden etc. But you'll get something actually usable and supported.

If you need it for hobby stuff, DIY it. It's a neat project if you have the time.

trevwhite · « **Reply #3 on:** September 16, 2021, 10:46:55 pm »

It looks rough around the edges but we are not sending people to Mars. This thing just heats up some Galden..

It can't heat above the temp of the Galden so for me the potential issues are tombstones from too fast a heat cycle and Galden escaping and causing extra cost per cycle.

I have had private feedback from someone that indicates some degree of tombstoning but otherwise they have had good results.

Be great to hear from others who are using one.

SMTech · « **Reply #4 on:** September 17, 2021, 09:07:57 am »

what about this one https://www.crowdsupply.com/pcb-arts/vapor-phase-one?

trevwhite · « **Reply #5 on:** September 17, 2021, 09:29:20 am »

I noticed they have a comparison table, have attached. The Imdes unit is way way cheaper really and the table does not compare the final results, its more of a feature comparison table.

Marco · « **Reply #6 on:** September 17, 2021, 11:40:45 am »

Don't the pro machines heat even faster by lowering the PCB into the vapour?

wraper · « **Reply #7 on:** September 17, 2021, 11:46:43 am »

Quote from: trevwhite on September 16, 2021, 10:33:07 am

Has anyone got the oven in the video and if so any review? I have also attached an image of the unit with the newer style display and button layout.

I've got a smaller MINI CONDENS-IT version when it was sold at half of the current price and even for that money is was a complete trash. Jumbo is so expensive, it's even funny that people pay this much for a Horeca stainless steel container with a heater attached on the bottom. Construction is a complete joke FWIW.

wraper · « **Reply #8 on:** September 17, 2021, 11:54:12 am »

Does in look familiar? Top lid BTW is just standard Horeca GN lid with a hole cut in the middle and piece of glass glued on and handle attached.
https://www.horecatraders.com/en/bartscher-gn-containers-1-3-gn-german-quality-9524675.html

trevwhite · « **Reply #9 on:** September 17, 2021, 12:58:06 pm »

I am not bothered if they sourced a container cheap. I am bothered if it works repeatedly. Does it matter what size boards go in it? Does one profile work for all boards? Are people able to use it to get good results.

Siriusx86 · « **Reply #10 on:** September 17, 2021, 01:08:52 pm »

Year ago I also want purchased Imdes Jumbo. The main reason was save my time and not building it 2nd suitable size for large pcb panels and last reason was price. Once I saw the quality of product inside I completely decline the idea to invest such many to Jumbo.. Once I have 20k I will definitely purchasing ascon or IBL oven to save my time.
So main jumbo problems:
1) Slow cycle time 25+min. S pear day you can soldered just 10 panels or so..
2) Liquid galden drops on PCB after cycle.
3) poor quality
4) price / quality
5) passive cooling system

So I build for myself vapor phase soldering unit for fraction of cost.

If you wanna follow my progress on the project I am on Instagram @vapor_phase_soldering

I designed simple power unit compatible with Arduino socket so it can be connect to stmmucleo discover arduino kits.
Originally it was design for stm32f7508 discovery with nice LCD and touch panel. Power unit is very simple and contain only necessary component to run heating element, measure temperature (k type thermocouple using max chip ) beeper for sound signalization, and some extra power channels for FAN, water coiling and so on

I can make some video about progress, and how it works, talk about weak spots and so on.
Also I can provide power unit compatible with arduino socket or complete set with smt kit and current version of SW.

About my SW:
- It has 3 custom profile.
- Each profile is dynamic so if you put inside large pcb with higher thermal mass it automatically correct for it.
- Profile recovery after shutdown.
- end cycle alarm - ready for next load.
- Automatic profile jump to current temperature.

more picture is on istagram.

wraper · « **Reply #11 on:** September 17, 2021, 01:12:35 pm »

By default you are almost guaranteed to have a lot of tombstoning due to lack of proper temperature profile or even adequate temperature sensing. The way temperature sensor is located very close to the wall basically eliminates sensing temperature which would be similar to PCB temperature. Also you will get galden drops on the board since it will condensate on the lid as this garbage do not have a cooling coil which prevents galden reaching to the top and escaping. Also you cannot really take it apart, it stitched with pop rivets everywhere. Not to say someone who designed this has barely any knowledge about electronics. Nor CE certification bears any compliance with safety standards, since this thing is electrically unsafe from what I've seen. It probably poses a fire hazard too as thermal switch is mounted in a way that it does not trip in absence of galden. Got bitten by it myself when I forgot that I removed it. PCB turned into a black smoking cracker, yet temperature sensor did not even reach the temperature to switch off the heater.

trevwhite · « **Reply #12 on:** September 17, 2021, 02:37:59 pm »

@wraper: Are the drops bad news? Do they create cold spots during the vapour phase? Do they create bad solder areas? The latest version of the unit has some paramaters such as anti-tombstone but I have no idea how well it works.

@Siriusx86: Impressive work building you own. It is just not a project I could take on. If you were selling a kit and it works I would be interested to know the price? Have you got your system all working nicely? Any information you would like to share about your system would be very interesting.

wraper · « **Reply #13 on:** September 17, 2021, 03:28:45 pm »

Quote from: trevwhite on September 17, 2021, 02:37:59 pm

@wraper: Are the drops bad news? Do they create cold spots during the vapour phase? Do they create bad solder areas? The latest version of the unit has some paramaters such as anti-tombstone but I have no idea how well it works.

@Siriusx86: Impressive work building you own. It is just not a project I could take on. If you were selling a kit and it works I would be interested to know the price? Have you got your system all working nicely? Any information you would like to share about your system would be very interesting.

Drops do not affect soldering since they appear after reflow is done. But you will get wet boards covered with galden. If you do not clean the lid between runs, then they may drop onto PCB before reflow and as they are also contaminated with flux vapors, you will get dark spots on pcb with cooked flux residues which are almost impossible to clean.

trevwhite · « **Reply #14 on:** September 17, 2021, 03:31:56 pm »

Thanks, wraper, that is really useful information.

trevwhite · « **Reply #15 on:** September 19, 2021, 02:01:29 pm »

I have an Imdes Jumbo coming for evaluation next week. I have it on sale or return for a much lower price than advertised as I believe it was a unit left on the shelf for a few years and the seller just wants to get rid of it now. I was of the assumption that I would not need to mess with profiles and that regardless of board size, it would just do its thing. It seems now though that there is still a requirement to tinker with the profiles?

If it has the odd tombstone then I can live with that. If I need to wipe the lid before use each time, I can live with that. If it takes 25mins per cycle that is quite a long time and I am not sure if that is a problem or not yet. Is there anything else with these units that people think might actually stop it from producing a proper soldering job? Time is against me really and so for me the money is not so big an issue if it works okay.

Trev

trevwhite · « **Reply #16 on:** September 20, 2021, 01:32:43 pm »

The machine arrived and construction is 'unique'.

The thermocouple is in completely the wrong place. I adapted this and put it on the actual board I was soldering and this worked very well on the heating up cycle.

The cooling down phase is extremely slow. I need to see if that can be improved easily. I think having the unit on a bench is limiting the air flow getting to the fans underneath.

trevwhite · « **Reply #17 on:** September 20, 2021, 01:34:49 pm »

I opened up the control box. The electronics is a complete butcher job based on Arduino but this does suggest it is easily hackable.

trevwhite · « **Reply #18 on:** September 20, 2021, 01:36:48 pm »

Close up of the Arduino nano board

blopblop · « **Reply #19 on:** September 21, 2021, 06:53:31 am »

Could you share pictures of the heating element(s) ? I'm curious to see what kind they used and how they fitted it.

cgroen · « **Reply #20 on:** September 21, 2021, 08:01:02 am »

Thats some "interesting" traces and routing

PS: Good luck with that contraption, hope it works out ok for you!

trevwhite · « **Reply #21 on:** September 21, 2021, 01:07:45 pm »

I am quite surprised they did not have the skills to create a proper control board for it. It does make you wonder their level of general understanding of the whole process.

I was hoping with a few tweaks it might do the job but starting to feel like I might be polishing a turd and paying for the pleasure. I will do some temperature profiles with it in a few days and see what it can do before likely making the decision to return it.

I shall try and get more photos of the insides as well when I do

trevwhite · « **Reply #22 on:** September 22, 2021, 12:08:07 pm »

The unit has a metal heater plate bolted to the tray and 6 fans used for cooling. I think if the unit is on a normal bench it will limit the air flow. I think it needs good space underneath to get optimum cooling from this setup.

cgroen · « **Reply #23 on:** September 22, 2021, 12:22:09 pm »

This is (also) nuts. The blowers will be severely limited by the small distance to the bench!

trevwhite · « **Reply #24 on:** September 22, 2021, 12:30:50 pm »

Maybe putting it on something like this may well improve things a lot.

48X24X48X · « **Reply #25 on:** September 22, 2021, 04:15:08 pm »

The machine construction reminds me of the ultrasonic cleaner that you can find on Aliexpress and Alibaba but at least that one doesn't require that much of tight control and accuracy.

trevwhite · « **Reply #26 on:** September 22, 2021, 07:49:06 pm »

At present I think the only big issue appears to be the cooling stage

trevwhite · « **Reply #27 on:** September 23, 2021, 08:55:32 pm »

I did some runs with the unit. It seems so close to being really good if honest. I am not talking about the 'unique' construction of the electronics, etc. I am also not here talking about the cost. This is about does it produce good results.

I tested the profile on a large 200mm x 200mm panel and on a 50mm x 70mm board and the profile was pretty consistent for both. This allowed me to just put a scrap piece of PCB in with the thermocouple attached as the main sensor for the oven.

I tweaked some settings a little and the best I could get so far is the attached temperature profile. It is the cooling phase that is really letting it down. I read that the wetting phase where its around 185C going up to peak and then back down to 185 should be a max of 150seconds. I am seeing more like 180-200.

trevwhite · « **Reply #28 on:** September 23, 2021, 08:57:22 pm »

The soldering, to me looks really clean. I am just uncomfortable with the cooling phase. I really want to find a solution to that as the oven appears to work otherwise.

trevwhite · « **Reply #29 on:** September 23, 2021, 09:09:51 pm »

A note on the anti tombstone setting. It is currently set to 200C and I think 7 seconds. What this does is at the threshold temperature ( 200C ) it turns on the fans whilst keeping the heaters on( I think ). This adjusts the slope of the profile and you can see this on the image previously attached. It is quite a neat feature to be able to adjust the slope like that.

bson · « **Reply #30 on:** September 24, 2021, 12:41:19 am »

Is it me, or do those solder joints look a little pitted, lumpy, or gritty? Is this to be expected?

kylehunter · « **Reply #31 on:** September 24, 2021, 01:37:09 am »

Quote from: bson on September 24, 2021, 12:41:19 am

Is it me, or do those solder joints look a little pitted, lumpy, or gritty? Is this to be expected?

Agreed. The joints don't look great to my eyes.

48X24X48X · « **Reply #32 on:** September 24, 2021, 05:05:50 am »

It does look like the paste didn't fully entirely reflow completely. You can still see the fine particles with your naked eyes.

Looking back at your graph, it might look like your soaking period is happening too fast and too short. There is when the process drags a bit and curve should be flatter.

trevwhite · « **Reply #33 on:** September 24, 2021, 01:34:00 pm »

I think the temperature may have been a little low for the paste I was using. I do though think the cooling needs work.

Anyone got any ideas on how to cool down better without major work to this unit?

Trev

cgroen · « **Reply #34 on:** September 24, 2021, 01:37:28 pm »

Quote from: trevwhite on September 24, 2021, 01:34:00 pm

I think the temperature may have been a little low for the paste I was using. I do though think the cooling needs work.

Anyone got any ideas on how to cool down better without major work to this unit?

Trev

Have you tried lifting it up from the table, perhaps 5 to 8 cm ?

trevwhite · « **Reply #35 on:** September 24, 2021, 01:57:43 pm »

Yeah, did not make a great deal of difference. I even put another fan underneath and that did not seem to affect the cool down rate.

Maybe its the air flow path. The air comes out of the holes at the side so maybe helping suck the air up the side and out might help

trevwhite · « **Reply #36 on:** September 24, 2021, 07:43:46 pm »

Okay, I actually think I might have misread things. The wetting stage for unleaded is from 217C. Lead based profiles are 187C. I was thinking it needed to go up from 187C, peak and then back down again for unleaded. So frustrating!

This means that the oven does appear to be actually working okay. The one thing I change was to place the thermocouple on a spare piece of PCB and sat that on the grill rather than use the attached thermocouple on the side. I am sure this side one can be calibrated to work but I am okay using a scrap piece of board.

So for me the oven does work. I think the electronics is rough considering the list price but I think I can live with it.

Marsupilami · « **Reply #37 on:** October 02, 2021, 02:03:50 am »

I have the mini and I have mixed feelings about it. What helped me is to realize how dumb the controller was. I got a cheapo thermocouple datalogger from amazon and probed a bunch of locations, at the board, at the built in thermocouple etc. Things that matter: make sure that the built in thermocouple is at the exact same height as the board. Mine was off. Also the amount of liquid inside makes a huuuge difference. Basically you have to do thermal profiling with a known liquid level tweaking the preheat and main heating times and then stick to that exact level.

The liquid quantity has the biggest effect on the main heat ramp rate, if there's too little it heats up way too quickly, if there's too much it will overshoot due to the excess thermal mass.

I have a controlleo toaster oven controller that I plan to retrofit into that, that thing has an adaptive PID controller built into it, maybe with that I could make the thing a bit smarter.

So overall meh, but once figured out it gives nice, consistent results.

trevwhite · « **Reply #38 on:** October 02, 2021, 03:28:08 am »

I also have one of these that I was thinking might do a better job whilst also making it look a bit more professional but at the moment I have run iut of time.

https://www.whizoo.com/

trevwhite · « **Reply #39 on:** October 02, 2021, 08:13:40 am »

Marsupilami, did you analyse the control process? I wondered if it pulses the heater on and off to start with and then does full power once it reaches a certain tempersture?.
With the soak profile I thought it would have put the fans on a bit as well to level off the temperature but it just turns the heater off and the temperature still rises.

Marsupilami · « **Reply #40 on:** October 02, 2021, 02:09:11 pm »

I was hoping for such a feature but it doesn't do any of that. The heating element is connected via an electromechanical relay so you can hear it whenever it turns on or off.

What it does:

Full blast until thermocouple registers set preheat temp, e.g. 150°C
Heater off for set profile time, e.g. 60s
If anti tombstoning is on it also runs the fan for set time
Full blast for main heating phase until thermocouple registers boiling temperature, e.g. 230°C
Full blast for set time above liquidus, e.g. 30s
Cooldown. Heater off, fan on.

There's not a whole lot of sophisticated signal processing going on to adjust ramp rates and so on.
I have the whizoo controller too, that has proper PID control and could do PWM on the heater with the SSR thus controlling climb rates.

trevwhite · « **Reply #41 on:** October 02, 2021, 06:34:57 pm »

Be great to get a profile working for the whizoo. Sounds like it might not be too much work. Also sounds like it doesn't need to be too complicated either.

sandalcandal · « **Reply #42 on:** October 03, 2021, 07:13:22 am »

Quote from: wraper on September 17, 2021, 01:12:35 pm

By default you are almost guaranteed to have a lot of tombstoning due to lack of proper temperature profile or even adequate temperature sensing. The way temperature sensor is located very close to the wall basically eliminates sensing temperature which would be similar to PCB temperature. Also you will get galden drops on the board since it will condensate on the lid as this garbage do not have a cooling coil which prevents galden reaching to the top and escaping. Also you cannot really take it apart, it stitched with pop rivets everywhere. Not to say someone who designed this has barely any knowledge about electronics. Nor CE certification bears any compliance with safety standards, since this thing is electrically unsafe from what I've seen. It probably poses a fire hazard too as thermal switch is mounted in a way that it does not trip in absence of galden. Got bitten by it myself when I forgot that I removed it. PCB turned into a black smoking cracker, yet temperature sensor did not even reach the temperature to switch off the heater.

I noticed in Marco Reps' DIY vapour phase reflow setup he seems to also have issues with tombstoning https://youtu.be/D28uSzCs7-k?t=619

trevwhite · « **Reply #43 on:** October 03, 2021, 07:28:27 am »

I have not experienced any serious issues yet with tombstones. I did ten boards with 50 components on each and got just one tombstone in total.

sandalcandal · « **Reply #44 on:** October 03, 2021, 07:37:23 am »

Quote from: trevwhite on October 03, 2021, 07:28:27 am

I have not experienced any serious issues yet with tombstones. I did ten boards with 50 components on each and got just one tombstone in total.

IIRC tombstoning is also heavily related to pad design and solder/flux used so it might be a YMMV situation not entirely dependent on the reflow oven.

Edit: BTW looking to buy or get recommendations for reflow equipment in another thread here

Marsupilami · « **Reply #45 on:** October 03, 2021, 05:44:10 pm »

I bought a small enclosure. I plan to put the Controlleo and the SSR, a small DC psu and stuff in it with a thermocouple input, a general IO terminal and a C13 power output connected from the SSR.
Then I'll gut the oven, connect the C14 power inlet directly to the heating element and put a connector on the back for the built in thermocouple and one for the fans/lid switch. This will minimize the stuff I have to build/wire within the crowded imdes box.

The only thing I need now is time. *le sigh*

bson · « **Reply #46 on:** October 03, 2021, 08:37:11 pm »

So the verdict is this product isn't usable out of the box and requires significant modifications and tweaks for decent results?

trevwhite · « **Reply #47 on:** October 03, 2021, 08:56:57 pm »

I think you need to double check it's doing what you expect. Don't just hope it works out of the box. I put a thermocouple on a scrap piece of PCB and placed it on the tray with other boards to get the best temperature measurement. I also played around a bit with profiles to get used to it. The great thing is you can't burn boards as the galden limits the peak temperature.
I do think it is over priced for what it is but it all comes down to how much time you have, how much money you have and your end goal..I wanted something that I could get working quickly and then build on later. I did not pay list price though. 1800 euros for the jumbo would have left me a bit upset really. It also appears that given a hot plate, appropriate container and say a controlleo 3 board you probably could get something working relatively quickly I think. But for me the basis of my learning was to see what the Imdes unit did so how long would it have taken starting from scratch?

Marsupilami · « **Reply #48 on:** October 04, 2021, 06:33:38 am »

Quote from: bson on October 03, 2021, 08:37:11 pm

So the verdict is this product isn't usable out of the box and requires significant modifications and tweaks for decent results?

The problem is that there aren't really any affordable professional options. Cheapest real alternative costs like 3x as much.
I'm thinking about it and I can't tell whether I would've bought it if I had known what I know now. Maybe. It works. The operating principle makes it a lot more robust then cheap IR and convection ovens.
Could be better? Yeah.
Is there 1600EUR craftsmanship in it? Nope.
On the upside both the reseller and the guy making them were helpful.

wraper · « **Reply #49 on:** October 04, 2021, 07:40:05 am »

Quote from: Marsupilami on October 04, 2021, 06:33:38 am

Quote from: bson on October 03, 2021, 08:37:11 pm
So the verdict is this product isn't usable out of the box and requires significant modifications and tweaks for decent results?

The problem is that there aren't really any affordable professional options. Cheapest real alternative costs like 3x as much.
I'm thinking about it and I can't tell whether I would've bought it if I had known what I know now. Maybe. It works. The operating principle makes it a lot more robust then cheap IR and convection ovens.
Could be better? Yeah.
Is there 1600EUR craftsmanship in it? Nope.
On the upside both the reseller and the guy making them were helpful.

Frankly the same cheap horeca container placed on top of mini electric stove should work about as well. In addition you could remove it from the stove once it reflowed and place onto some metal or stone plate to improve cooling speed.

trevwhite · « **Reply #50 on:** October 04, 2021, 09:08:25 am »

But that means you have to stand there waiting for it and remove at the right time. With the Imdes oven you can just put the boards in and do other stuff and forget about it.

wraper · « **Reply #51 on:** October 04, 2021, 10:36:08 am »

Quote from: trevwhite on October 04, 2021, 09:08:25 am

But that means you have to stand there waiting for it and remove at the right time. With the Imdes oven you can just put the boards in and do other stuff and forget about it.

If you wait too long, you will get PCB covered with galden as it starts dropping of the lid. I'm thinking buying container like this https://www.horeca.com/en/product/62099/hendi-gastronorm-container-1-1-200mm-28-liters and adding heater on the bottom (already 80% of what my IMDES mini is + adding some cooling on the top part of the container to stop vapors from reaching the lid by condensing them below. Water cooling loop is one option. But I think I probably could attach long heatsinks to the container and put blower fans to push air through them. Dunno how well it would work though.

trevwhite · « **Reply #52 on:** October 04, 2021, 12:06:15 pm »

Wraper: The problem is it all takes time and sourcing of parts and experimenting. The Imdes needed a bit of tweaking but is okay, it kind does it.

As for the drops on the board, this is a bit of a pain and am not sure of a solution yet. But for small batches of prototypes/production I think its not a serious issue. I have not experienced it with my limited use as being a major problem. Have you had a lot of droplets on boards?

Trev

Marsupilami · « **Reply #53 on:** October 04, 2021, 05:39:00 pm »

Quote from: trevwhite on October 04, 2021, 12:06:15 pm

Wraper: The problem is it all takes time and sourcing of parts and experimenting. The Imdes needed a bit of tweaking but is okay, it kind does it.

↑ That right there. ↑

But I agree that it's totally doable DIY.
What's wrong with the drops? I haven't had that problem but I don't understand why would it even be an issue? Is the concern that drops would knock parts before the solder solidified or why?

wraper · « **Reply #54 on:** October 04, 2021, 05:52:10 pm »

Quote from: Marsupilami on October 04, 2021, 05:39:00 pm

Quote from: trevwhite on October 04, 2021, 12:06:15 pm
Wraper: The problem is it all takes time and sourcing of parts and experimenting. The Imdes needed a bit of tweaking but is okay, it kind does it.

↑ That right there. ↑

But I agree that it's totally doable DIY.
What's wrong with the drops? I haven't had that problem but I don't understand why would it even be an issue? Is the concern that drops would knock parts before the solder solidified or why?

You get wet boards covered with galden drops. If a top lid became dirty enough after many reflows, those drops will be also contaminated with burned flux vapors. If they get onto PCB before reflow, you will have brown uncleanable gunk cooked onto it.

Marsupilami · « **Reply #55 on:** October 04, 2021, 06:10:44 pm »

I haven't seen drop forming condensation on the lid during the cycle, only well into cooldown. It might be different though for larger sizes or depending on the lid surface / geometry.

trevwhite · « **Reply #56 on:** October 04, 2021, 06:20:17 pm »

I use a cheap window wiper from Amazon that cost £2. After each run I clean the lid. I didn't experience much issue. I think I did something and one board got dropped on but it was not a problem and no lasting residue.

trevwhite · « **Reply #57 on:** November 10, 2021, 03:19:40 pm »

If he now has it made, ask for a discount and see what you can do.


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Author Topic: Imdes Jumbo vapour phase oven (Read 8270 times)

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