Laser Soldering Machines

[radiostuff]

Has anyone used/seen a laser soldering machine?

https://www.apolloseiko.com/products/laser-soldering

I’m interested in it for prototyping and small batch production.

[thm_w]

Do you have a specific need for it that regular IR or convection isn't capable of?
You realize the price will be incredibly high right.

[NoMoreMagicSmoke]

I am familiar with laser soldering machines. They work great for specific high volume manufacturing needs. Specifically ones where you need very precise application of heat to melt solder while keeping surrounding parts cold. If you are planning on doing prototyping or small batch they would be an expensive way of doing it.

What kind of parts are you making?

[loki42]

I looked into laser for pth.  Used laser machines are often cheaper than used selective (fountain) machines and wave is expensive for smaller batches solder wise.  Dipping is an option though.  I went robotic because it was way cheaper and it took up less space. 

[radiostuff]

@thm_w I was under the impression that IR was limited to rework stations. I'm sure a regular convection oven could meet my needs. I was interested in the laser soldering because some of machines included solder dispensing, which would eliminate the need for stencils and take up less space than an oven. I had not looked into pricing--which is why I was asking here for feedback.

@NoMoreMagicSmoke These are not specialized boards. Nothing smaller than 0402. Anywhere from 100 placements to 500 placements per board. All SMT components. Not high volume. I was most interested in rapid prototyping and eliminating the stencil, as some of the machines I've seen also have robotic solder dispensing. How much are these machines and are there many manufacturers of them that sell in the US?

@loki42 Where are you finding used laser machines? Any particular brands that you recommend? What are general prices for used units?

[thm_w]

If you don't want to deal with stencils then get a dedicated paste dispenser on its own no?

[loki42]

I was looking for pth only no SMT for use after my reflow oven did the surface mount parts. So very different requirements.  I've got no idea on brands.  SMT net had a few people listing used machines.  Cheapest was around USD40k.

[NoMoreMagicSmoke]

The machines I am familiar with are for high volume production and would be miserable for low volume prototyping. You need to program in the toolpaths for everything in the machine meaning you would be spending a few hours/days (minimum) just programming in the toolpath for each new design. Once you have it programmed they will run the parts flawlessly for decades, but that's not what you are looking at. They are also expensive (300-600K), which I am guessing is out of your budget.

[radiostuff]

Thanks everyone for your feedback. Yes, this doesn't seem like a good option for me.

[KE5FX]

The machines I am familiar with are for high volume production and would be miserable for low volume prototyping. You need to program in the toolpaths for everything in the machine meaning you would be spending a few hours/days (minimum) just programming in the toolpath for each new design. Once you have it programmed they will run the parts flawlessly for decades, but that's not what you are looking at. They are also expensive (300-600K), which I am guessing is out of your budget.

Sounds like the TSP from Hell, but still... I don't see why toolpath creation couldn't be trivially automated.  Are there other inputs besides the paste layer?  What steps require manual involvement?

[tooki]

Each joint has different thermal properties, due to the mass of the component lead, trace width, nearby vias, etc. In hand soldering, we accommodate for this with different tip sizes/geometries, and with the temperature and dwell time.

I assume that in laser soldering, each joint’s thermal properties need to be individually programmed for good results.

[NoMoreMagicSmoke]

Sounds like the TSP from Hell, but still... I don't see why toolpath creation couldn't be trivially automated.  Are there other inputs besides the paste layer?  What steps require manual involvement?

Think less fire at pre-determined spot more go to location, use vision to locate the exact spot to fire, adjust for alignment variation then fire laser. The machines I am thinking of are for through hole leads with solder donuts not solder paste. Sometimes even with a realtime vision feedback to see the solder melt to know when to stop firing.

Yes if using paste and no worries about alignment issues, or checking for the solder donut to exist the toolpath could be auto-generated.

[NoMoreMagicSmoke]

I assume that in laser soldering, each joint’s thermal properties need to be individually programmed for good results.

Yes, that is exactly correct.

[coppercone2]

there are cheap machines for making parts (repetitive), that you use jigs to line up and hit a button, but for a PCB I don't know.

[tooki]

there are cheap machines for making parts (repetitive), that you use jigs to line up and hit a button, but for a PCB I don't know.

What does that reply have to do with laser soldering?

[coppercone2]

well you make parts by doing repetitive laser soldering..... obviously its a parts soldering machine where you put the thing into a fixture and a laser heats up a solder preform, what else would I put in this thread? You get a laser and focusing mechanism/optical recognition but no robotic arms and positioning shit, so you put the part with the preform in the same place every time and it solders. Like for sensors etc. IIRC the cost ballooned as soon as you need the laser beam to be a different position. It was meant to be a assembler tool for high end electronics parts. Think of it like a spot welder thats bolted to the table, so long you can position something in there with a clear line of sight it works to make a electronics soldering joint for somewhere under $20,000

[tooki]

What is your point? That you suspect something exists, or could be created?

We already know laser soldering machines exist, and they are, by definition, for automated production (since the setup time makes them pointless for one-off or small-batch use).