Need to rent work-space for electronics soldering

[Faringdon]

Hi,
Please advise if you know of any space in London, UK, that i can rent whilst i solder up and assemble a 2kW SMPS?
I am not allowed to solder in my flat.

[tggzzz]

Hi,
Please advise if you know of any space in London, UK, that i can rent whilst i solder up and assemble a 2kW SMPS?
I am not allowed to solder in my flat.

It must be difficult not to be able to do your hobby in your flat.

Hackspaces/makerspaces are designed for hobbyists; why not use one of those?

Besides, surely the cost of renting a space will vastly exceed the cost of a single common-or-garden fuse. Or travelling from, say, Southall to Woolwich.

Hi,
Just doing a hobby prototype...multiple SMPS's.
We want to have a 1A fuse on a 60VDC rail.......why can't we use this.?..

   MP001593
https://www.farnell.com/datasheets/3665667.pdf

....we know its an AC fuse, and  could possibly  release shrapnel if it blows.....since its not DC rated...but we will have protective eyeware on.

DC rated fuses are more expensive as you know.

[Faringdon]

Thanks, i cant see prices for makerspaces, and there arent many of them......im surprised there's nothing...i remember back in the 70's, you could cheaply rent garages to do your car up in......that would be great for this, just a space with a table in it........but i cant find anything like that now. This would only take about 2 weeks to assemble this...then i could take it to the customer premises for testing

[tggzzz]

...then i could take it to the customer premises for testing

Is this or isn't this a hobby prototype?

[Faringdon]

Its unpayed work.....if the supply works, and the cust likes it......it "might" go ahead to something....but unlikely.
But i wish to build it anyway....to see how it goes........so at the moment, yes, its just a hobby.
I have not been payed a sausage to date, and dont stand to be......the cust has the full schem and layout anyway,  because i gave it to them to try and get them interested, so neednt pick me for the work anyway....even though i designed and layed-out it all.

I actually want to build it anyway, regardless of the customer.

As you can understand, with Chinese import power supplys available, the customer has other options.

[thm_w]

I am not allowed to solder in my flat.

Dare I ask why

[jpanhalt]

How is soldering any different than a toasted cheese sandwich?  Do you ask the landlord permission before using a toaster oven?

[sokoloff]

None of my landlords would have ever had any way to know that I soldered in their place. I soldered in every single one of them.

"Don't ask; don't tell..."

[MR]

Soldering in apartments is just fine it won't change the colour of the walls -- it will just leave dust and that you can clean away easily.
However be sure you can get the fumes away from your nose (it might be more challenging in winter times, unless you live in a warmer area).

[mikeselectricstuff]

Hi,
Please advise if you know of any space in London, UK, that i can rent whilst i solder up and assemble a 2kW SMPS?
I am not allowed to solder in my flat.

How is anyone going to find out?

There is the London Hackspace
https://london.hackspace.org.uk/

[mariush]

Ridiculous.  Is your landlord visiting you daily, or is your wife against it?

Open the window, get a fan to blow towards the window and all the flux smoke will go out the window.  There won't be residue on the walls, smell, whatever.

If you use leaded solder, there won't be lead in the smoke, nothing to worry about....

[mikeselectricstuff]

If you use leaded solder, there won't be lead in the smoke, nothing to worry about....

..and the flux fumes will be less nasty...

[jonpaul]

Rebonjour Cher Farrington

We consulted for decades, familiar with such issues, the arrangements to the customer are critical to fix in advance. 

1/ Labspace...suggest you contact RSGB, a local ham will assist you, you should join anyway

2/ never heard of such a restricted rental.

3/ We used a Hakko solder fume extractor/ filter in residential labs.

4/ setting up a bench outdoors, eg backyard or in an alleyway is another solution.

5/ Welders or auto repair shops may have space to rent or exchange

Just the ramblings of an old retired EE

Jon

PS a consultant gets paid per hour, or never gets paid at all.  your chance to collect is nil.

see Nathan Sokal's "getting paid" as a consultant in 1980s

[Gyro]

I find it quite sweet that you're prepared to break every rule in the book apart from soldering in your flat.  Clearly every man has his ethical limit, you just have to dig deep enough.

[josuah]

I use Chloric Acid for etching at home, white fumes going out of the bottle...
I did not even think of asking the landowner.
Maybe I am at the extreme opposite of the spectrum...

I would advise a desk-top mat, even cardboard would do, and much larger than the working area, to make sure there is absolutely no chance of dropping the iron onto something valuable, like a varnished and polished desk top wood finish.
Working in comfortable conditions also help with avoiding damaging mistakes.

This just came to my mind: did you precise it was electronic soldering very small things with as much heat as it takes to cook chicken with half of the fumes, with only a few watts and not mechanical soldering involving welding of large mechanical pieces?

Offering to install an extra smoke detector just on top of the work area and a fire extinguisher nearby could help to convince the land owner.

[tggzzz]

I find it quite sweet that you're prepared to break every rule in the book apart from soldering in your flat.  Clearly every man has his ethical limit, you just have to dig deep enough.

Tee hee.

I think the concepts of "SEP" (HHGttG) and "externality" (economics) might be relevant here.

[Faringdon]

Thanks, must admit the Hackspace looks great but too small for this, its a "communal" space so to speak.....you cant book a space or anything.
The cheapest "Unit" for hire, on a month  by month basis, in the London/Greater London area is £800 per month.
..all it needs is a window (let solder smoke out) and a  mains plug socket, and be at least the size of a small lavatory room.

Access do it for 600£ per month but minimum 6 month contract.
Anyone know any cheaper?

[mariush]

A caravan / camping place and an inverter to power your soldering station if they don't have AC power ?

[Faringdon]

Thats actually a good idea....Maybe somewhere in Margate etc..

[Infraviolet]

Some years ago I lived in a place where soldering was supposedly banned. Initially I took it outside, there was a corner of the building with a plug socket just inside a door, ran a long extension and soldered in a sheltered spot outside on a few dry days with minimal wind. Then winter came, I soldered inside by an open window, well away from the building's communal smoke detectors (not that it smoked measurably anyway), nobody ever found out. Packed the iron away in a box and buried it beneath a pile of other things under the bed when not in use. Cigarette smoking was also banned but plenty of people enjoyed that horrid activity, so no guilt in doing something productive which generates minimal smoke and has far less risk of ever starting fires (you just use a proper temperature controleld iron with a stand and remember to turn the iron off and take the plug out when you're finished).

In short, when one has lived for a while where soldering is banned one learns how efficiently organise ones iron to pack away as small as possible when not in use.

[Faringdon]

Thanks, but for this, i need to rent somewhere.
In and Around London, there are loads of office rental websites, but none actually  tell if its a co-working space, or an individual lockable office (i need the latter).
All it needs is a window and an electrical socket.
Preferably access  including and beyond normal office hours.
Preferably month to month contract....ie not 2 year min contract.

Which is the best website for this?

If the lockable office situation is undesirable because "they dont know whats going on in there", then im happy for them to put a camera in  so they can see.

[tggzzz]

In and Around London, there are loads of office rental websites, but none actually  tell if its a co-working space, or an individual lockable office (i need the latter).

Greater London is 1500km² or 600mile².

It would be a waste of time for anybody here to suggest places, since any such place is unlikely to be near enough to you. It could easily take 1-2 hours travel in each direction!

If you want people to help, you have to give them sufficient information.

[Faringdon]

Thanks, commuting wouldnt be a problem. Specially if price was nice and low price rental office.
I mean, i'd rather it were near Stratford, but anywhere on the tube/overground/Elizabeth line would be fine

[SiliconWizard]

How is soldering any different than a toasted cheese sandwich?  Do you ask the landlord permission before using a toaster oven?

Yeah, this all sounds very odd.

Not sure about the UK legislation, but generally speaking, I don't think a landlord could even prevent you from doing any reasonable hobby activity in your flat. *That* sounds against the law.
Making too much noise, sure, using nasty products that can be smelled by your neighbors, sure, but soldering? How can it disturb anyone or be any worse than just cooking? Heck, many people even make smelly stuff while cooking. And I'm sure many, many more fires start in kitchens while people are cooking rather than from hobbyists soldering a few PCBs. Oh well.

[jpanhalt]

There are so many inconsistencies, I wonder whether we are being played or he is building an excuse in his own mind not to deliver this power supply.

I don't have a clue about commercial property in the UK, so I searched for cheap property in London.
https://www.thestorefront.com/selections/cheap-commercial-property-london

One of several hits.  £20/day for a small place doesn't sound too expensive to me.  However, I would have serious doubts about renting to anyone for just a month, though, unless it was for some special event like an election.  In the US, I would want to be prepaid for any short duration and include cleaning/damage fees, etc.

[IanB]

I mean, i'd rather it were near Stratford, but anywhere on the tube/overground/Elizabeth line would be fine

Stratford had plenty of light industrial space before 2012 and the Olympics. Then it all got bulldozed in the name of progress and replaced with flats (apartments).

Britain really doesn't like industry, as it happens. Find any industrial area in any town, and watch how it disappears to be replaced by mixed use residential, retail, office developments. Post-Brexit Britain will manufacture nothing, and import nothing. I sometimes wonder how anyone thinks the country has a future at all.

[Faringdon]

Thanks, ive lived in flats where i could have done this at home...but unfortunately where i am now is different...the Landlord lives in.....if theres a mains "snap" from a short cct etc, he wont like it.
He's already said no work activity in his house.
I did all the PCB layout at a freinds house or in the local library.

https://www.thestorefront.com/selections/cheap-commercial-property-london
...thanks for the above link, but all are >£800 per month. (or not lockable)
My best quote so far is £800/month, but im trying to get cheaper because all thats needed is a small room with a plug socket and a window
(also need >office hours access, pref 24hr, and lockable, and month to month rent, not 6 month contract)

[tggzzz]

Thanks, ive lived in flats where i could have done this at home...but unfortunately where i am now is different...the Landlord lives in.....if theres a mains "snap" from a short cct etc, he wont like it.
He's already said no work activity in his house.

That's quite possibly an insurance condition, or to ensure no local tax liability.

Find another place to live in.

[langwadt]

Thanks, ive lived in flats where i could have done this at home...but unfortunately where i am now is different...the Landlord lives in.....if theres a mains "snap" from a short cct etc, he wont like it.
He's already said no work activity in his house.
I did all the PCB layout at a freinds house or in the local library.

so you can't even use a computer?

[SMTech]

Thanks, ive lived in flats where i could have done this at home...but unfortunately where i am now is different...the Landlord lives in.....if theres a mains "snap" from a short cct etc, he wont like it.
He's already said no work activity in his house.
I did all the PCB layout at a freinds house or in the local library.

so you can't even use a computer?

Almost sounds like they're renting a room, student style. All the same, the OP repeatedly states this is a hobby, so I think taking your laptop elsewhere to work on it, is a little OTT. It's nobodies business but yours what you are doing on your laptop. (OK maybe if power was included in your rent and you were crypto-mining it would matter). Even home owners technically have restrictions like not running a business off the premises, those restrictions are there to comply with terms of use attached to the land/zoning as well as to remove the accompanying traffic and other disturbances that come with a business. You'd only run into trouble for doing so if it impinged enough on your neighbours for them to notice and complain.

Long term however, how often in the future how often might you want such a space? Surely you have all sorts of other equipment you want to use and store to do this kind of work? Plenty of places elsewhere in the UK you could easily rent/borrow a space and get a better place to live.

[Faringdon]

Thanks,
I just viewed an office near central London...but the window wasnt open-able...so the solder smoke would have collected up too much.....there was light air-con, but that coudlnt be relied upon.

[Codemonkey]

Ever heard of a solder fume extractor ? Basically just a small fan with a bit of absorptive foam in front to capture the smoke and compared with the cost of renting an office in London they cost peanuts!

[Faringdon]

Thanks, but i am not able to do "work at home".
Also, i cannot move house, not yet......cannot move whilst this project is live.
I am working for myself, earn no money, and no estate agent will entertain me for a move.

[langwadt]

Thanks,
I just viewed an office near central London...but the window wasnt open-able...so the solder smoke would have collected up too much.....there was light air-con, but that coudlnt be relied upon.

yeh, when building a few hundred power supplies every day the solder smoke does build up ...

[mikeselectricstuff]

There are still a few old factory units being chopped up for use as workspaces. e.g. Vyner St and surrounding area in Hackney.
The ones that used to be around Hackney Wick are rapidly being displaced by new development.
Probably not so much around Stratford nowadays but still plenty of lower-end (quality, not price) housing in that area.
Short-term is probably going to be hard unless you can find someone to sublet some space they're not using.
Anything near a station in London is not going to be cheap.
I'd suggest taking some time to walk around possible areas to see what's there, chat to local business owners - the best places are found by word of mouth and never advertised.

[tggzzz]

I am working for myself, earn no money, and no estate agent will entertain me for a move.

That is a problem; even if you have an income, letting agents and mortgage companies will disregard it.

[nctnico]

Hi,
Please advise if you know of any space in London, UK, that i can rent whilst i solder up and assemble a 2kW SMPS?
I am not allowed to solder in my flat.

And how are they going to fix the water pipes in there?
And how about people that smoke?

Sounds like you have asked and they said 'no' to you just to get rid of you. There really isn't a valid reason why you couldn't setup an electronics lab in your flat except for limited space.

[ebastler]

Things may be different in your area, but over here, classified ads portals would be one of my first bets for low-cost leases. Since the ads are free, they tend to be used to trade low-cost items.

Ebay classified ads is the big player in Germany, but it looks like they have divested that branch in the UK in preparation for some merger? I came across "Gumtree" in a search; maybe worth a look? Here's a random offer: https://www.gumtree.com/p/commercial-property-to-rent/spacious-creative-studio-office-workshop-spaces-available-in-hackney-wick-warehouse-conversions/1240748414

[mikeselectricstuff]

Hi,
Please advise if you know of any space in London, UK, that i can rent whilst i solder up and assemble a 2kW SMPS?
I am not allowed to solder in my flat.

And how are they going to fix the water pipes in there?

Pushfit (yuk) or crimp.

[tggzzz]

Hi,
Please advise if you know of any space in London, UK, that i can rent whilst i solder up and assemble a 2kW SMPS?
I am not allowed to solder in my flat.

And how are they going to fix the water pipes in there?
And how about people that smoke?

Sounds like you have asked and they said 'no' to you just to get rid of you. There really isn't a valid reason why you couldn't setup an electronics lab in your flat except for limited space.

The reasons can be valid to those that are in a position to impose the restriction.

"I can't be arsed to get new building structure nor contents insurance just for you" for a start.

[themadhippy]

And how about people that smoke?

plenty of rental  property's have a  no smoking  policy.

[langwadt]

And how about people that smoke?

plenty of rental  property's have a  no smoking  policy.

sure, but smoking vs. soldering is like a bonfire vs. a tee candle

[48X24X48X]

I have seen UK lads on YT renting those small 1 floor garage lookalike units that has a shutter door. Usually they would use it for car workshop kinda business. I'm not sure about these type of units pricing but it probably the most suitable type of building that you can do what you want to do.

[tggzzz]

And how about people that smoke?

plenty of rental  property's have a  no smoking  policy.

sure, but smoking vs. soldering is like a bonfire vs. a tee candle

We are considering rules set insurance companies, cretinous letting agencies, and landlords looking for the most money with least understanding/effort. Hence that is irrelevant

[Faringdon]

Ive now found a workspace.

However, they are saying if i rent the space, then i become liable for   "business rates".....(i believe business rates are very high in London, UK, this is NW10)

Business rates are payable on the spaces, however we encourage everyone to apply for full exemption via small business rate relief, provided it is your only commercial studio space. This is handled via Ealing Council directly, but I can share all the forms you need to submit to apply for the exemption.

So i am not sure if i can get an exemption?.....im not sure why i need an exemption, since  i am not a business, and i do not make any money. I do not even have a limited company.

Also, they are wanting

Full name and email address of someone to witness the licence.

...but my mates dont want to be "witness" to this, they say why should they, i would be paying a deposit after all, and if they act as "witness", then it must legally make them liable for any costs if something goes wrong?

Trying to start up in electronics appears to have pitfalls....do you know what are business rates for this?
I suppose i shoudl contact Ealing Borough council

[Codemonkey]

"im not sure why i need an exemption, since  i am not a business, and i do not make any money."

This is precisely why you need an exception. You are wanting to rent a business workspace but you are not a business (yet).

[Faringdon]

Thanks, i appreciate i need an exemption....but the myriad of laws surrounding  business rates  may say that i jolly well pay business rates or else?
Anyway, i have written to the particular London Council to ask for clarification.

[mikeselectricstuff]

"im not sure why i need an exemption, since  i am not a business, and i do not make any money."

This is precisely why you need an exception. You are wanting to rent a business workspace but you are not a business (yet).

Business rates are usually on the type of property, not the actual usage. I doubt they are set up for anything that is not either business or residential, as defined by planning aspects. i.e. someone renting a business space for a hobby will likely cause confusion.

It's still a business property regardless what you use it for ( but there may be rules against living there), and any chnage would need to go through planning approval

Small business relief appears to be dependent on the rateable value of the property.
https://www.gov.uk/apply-for-business-rate-relief/small-business-rate-relief

[Faringdon]

This is what the workspace owner said...

Business rates are due on each of the spaces because they're commercial spaces, no matter who the occupant is - it's the commercial equivalent of council tax. This applies for people who have the studio under their personal name or are sole traders too.
But not to worry, 90% of our occupants apply for 'small business rates relief' and get full exemption.
When you move in, we'd notify the council that you've taken occupancy on the space, and they would then send through a bill.
Once you have your bill (which contains your account number), I will provide you with the form you need to send to Ealing to apply for the exemption. They should then
follow up with a bill of zero.

You can find the full details of who qualifies for exemption here...
https://www.ealing.gov.uk/info/201269/business_rates_reductions/2722/small_business_rate_relief

, ....but basically if the space is small enough (which our studios are designed to be) and it is your only commercial space in Ealing, then you should qualify for full exemption.

Supposing it all went wrong   and i was due for business rates, then what would the rate be?

Basically, there's no way of knowing if the council thinks its got a "rateable value" of >£12000 or not.......i mean i can write to them (i have done already)....but the answer may take time.

Also, the workspace owners want "Full name and email address of someone to witness the licence."
...my friends dont want to offer their names and emails, in case something goes wrong and they become liable......is there any way round this? (not having a "witness")?

[jpanhalt]

Supposing it all went wrong   and i was due for business rates, then what would the rate be?
Also, the workspace owners want "Full name and email address of someone to witness the licence."
...my friends dont want to offer their names and emails, in case something goes wrong and they become liable......is there any way round this? (not having a "witness")?

If that person is only a "witness" by what concept can they be held liable.  In the US at least, if I witness a murder and report it, I cannot be prosecuted in lieu of the murderer. 

We have what are called Notary Publics (notaries for short) who are authorized by the state to witness all sort of things both private and government.  Usually, there is no charge.  I suspect something similar exists in the UK.

EDIT:  The thought did occur to me that the "witness" might be a guarantor, but in the US, that would probably be called a co-signer, not witness.  If a co-signer is needed, you can avoid that by paying several months in advance.

[ebastler]

Also, the workspace owners want "Full name and email address of someone to witness the licence."
...my friends dont want to offer their names and emails, in case something goes wrong and they become liable......is there any way round this? (not having a "witness")?

Not being a native speaker, I am probably not the best person to comment -- but here goes:

It seems to me that what your friends are concerned about is that they do not want be be a guarantor for your lease. (And rightfully so, in my opinion -- that's not something one should ask friends to do, if one values their friendship, because that could result in potentially serious financial obligations.)

As a witness, the only thing they could be asked to do at some point is to confirm that this contract was indeed signed by you. (And not someone else impersonating you, or by the landlord himself making up an imaginary tenant.) The only way I can see that putting a strain on your friendship would be if you try to weasel out of the contract in a few months, claiming that you never signed it -- which, I trust, is not on the horizon.

[mariush]

You could probably also try to rent a garage, it may be cheaper.
Some have electricity. If not see below...

I also read a post from some time ago where you said you were concerned about causing shorts and causing fuse popping and all that, not wanting to use electricity

Sounds to me like this could be resolved by using an UPS or a big power bank with AC inverter built in... top up the ups/power bank, disconnect from mains and you can solder without worry you'd trip something.
Or you could just get a fold-able desk and go outside the city somewhere and work outside with power from battery bank.

Maybe find someone in your neighborhood that bough a garage but crashed / totaled their car or maybe they no longer have car and rent the garage from them.

Do some thinking about places without electricity you could use (in case buying a power bank or something would be an option)

[mikeselectricstuff]

Basically, there's no way of knowing if the council thinks its got a "rateable value" of >£12000 or not.......i mean i can write to them (i have done already)....but the answer may take time.

You can look up rateable values here https://www.gov.uk/find-business-rates

Also, the workspace owners want "Full name and email address of someone to witness the licence."

Ask them what they mean - what "licence" exactly ?
Could just be a statement that you aren't a business

[Faringdon]

Hi,
The Studio (workspace) is 24.252m^2 (2.214m by 9.091m), but the government website doesnt allow you to calculate the rates from this.

Do you reckon we're talking £10,000/yr,   £30000/yr , £50000/yr or £100000/yr?

The only way I can see that putting a strain on your friendship would be if you try to weasel out of the contract in a few months, claiming that you never signed it -- which, I trust, is not on the horizon.

Thanks, this place is just 4weeks notice to leave......so i can leave any time, as long as i give 4 weeks notice.

[jpanhalt]

So what's the problem?  Just pay an additional 4 weeks advance in addition to the 1-month advance that is probably required (i.e., you pay at or before the month for the next month.

If you have agreed on the lease price, then rent the damn place.  Why not?  Surely, you can calculate the rent per m^2 from that.

[mikeselectricstuff]

Hi,
The Studio (workspace) is 24.252m^2 (2.214m by 9.091m), but the government website doesnt allow you to calculate the rates from this.

Do you reckon we're talking £10,000/yr,   £30000/yr , £50000/yr or £100000/yr?

Look up the building, or one of comparable size in the same area. Google Maps is your friend.
My guess would be way below 10K.

[Faringdon]

So what's the problem?

Thanks, Business rates in London (NW10) have been known to be >£1ook per year. (>8k per month)
Theres no way of knowing what the rates are till after i move in.

As MikesElectricStuff  kindly says, you can try and look up similar places, but i  cant find any that list their rates.

[jpanhalt]

Damn, I just lost everything I wrote.  Please get EEVBlog up to the 21st century.

Theres no way of knowing what the rates are till after i move in.

That is no way to do business.  Not even Elon Musk would sign a lease without knowing what it would cost.  If that is London today, it's sad.
1) Sign the lease with the landlord.
2) In all probability, you will get the exemption and be in clover.
3) If not, just don't pay the addition tax.  What's the worse that will happen?  You lose the space sounds reasonable.  Nothing gained, nothing lost.   Perhaps you go to prison.  Debtors' prison may still be in vogue in London.  How about daily floggings?
4) Worse case, that could be the longest time you have held any job/position.

Going back to my post #25, it seems you're looking for an excuse not to deliver on a product you promised.  Assuming that's the case, just move to a new life where we don't have debtors' prisons or floggings.   Garrettsville, OH is a nice place, and it's close to a small college where you might find a job teaching (Hiram College). 

[mikeselectricstuff]

So what's the problem?

Thanks, Business rates in London (NW10) have been known to be >£1ook per year. (>8k per month)
Theres no way of knowing what the rates are till after i move in.

I find that very hard to believe.
Note that rateable value is not the amount of business rates payable. Rateable value is the open market annual rental value assessed in April 2015. The rates payable are approximately half this.

If you look at the rateable values for a property on the .gov website, you can drill down to how it's calculated - it's broken down by storage, office, retail areas etc. with their own rates per square metre.
 Office space in a random industrial area of NW10 seems to be around £100/m^2  So your 25m^2 space would have a rateable value around 2500, so well below the 12K limit for 100% business rate relief, but would  cost about £1250 per year in rates if you did have to pay.

[Faringdon]

Thanks, yes , heres the gen  on business rates from the local London council

You would be liable to pay business rates on any commercial space you rent, however, you may be entitled to claim 100% small business rate relief.
If this is the only unit you rent in England, then you would be entitled to claim 100% relief.