Author Topic: Neoden 4 pick and place  (Read 328665 times)

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Offline Spikee

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Neoden 4 pick and place
« on: December 15, 2015, 11:27:43 am »
Has anyone used or even have the new neoden4 pick and place machine?
http://www.neodentech.eu/contents/en-uk/d8_NEODEN4.html

Looks like a reasonable pick and place for the 7.5K. But bad software can make it a expensive paperweight.

I have the liteplacer pick and place and it actually works quite good but no feeders is becoming a problem.
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Online TheSteve

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Re: Neoden 4 pick and place
« Reply #1 on: December 15, 2015, 07:47:18 pm »
I will get a chance to use one within a few weeks and will report back with how well it works(or doesn't!).
VE7FM
 

Offline Spikee

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Re: Neoden 4 pick and place
« Reply #2 on: December 16, 2015, 10:14:54 am »
Neoden has sent met the training videos. That software release looks quite basic and not as refined as you would expect from a 10k device.
Would be best if it was open source but I do not think that will happen.

While the vision operators are a bit better than the ones on the liteplacer. The UI of the liteplacer is better so is the assigment from csv to pnp feeder is better.
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Online TheSteve

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Re: Neoden 4 pick and place
« Reply #3 on: December 17, 2015, 03:32:04 am »
I expect to be there when one is unpacked on Friday.
VE7FM
 

Online jc101

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Re: Neoden 4 pick and place
« Reply #4 on: December 18, 2015, 09:54:03 am »
 :popcorn:

Be interested to see what people discover...
 

Online mikeselectricstuff

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Re: Neoden 4 pick and place
« Reply #5 on: December 18, 2015, 10:01:29 am »
I assume that price doesn't include feeeders

aaargh - english person reading Chinglish script...!
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Online mikeselectricstuff

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Re: Neoden 4 pick and place
« Reply #6 on: December 18, 2015, 10:13:29 am »
More info here :
http://dangerousprototypes.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4903&p=62429
Prices for the feeders are:
60USD/Pcs(8MM)
75USD/Pcs(12mm)
90USD/Pcs(16mm)
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Offline Spikee

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Re: Neoden 4 pick and place
« Reply #7 on: December 18, 2015, 11:25:08 am »
7.5k euro:
Basic version with pcb holder and set of 8 tape feeders and vibratory stick feeder
Complete with stand, build-in pc and set of monitor, keyboard and mouse.

8.5k euro:
Version with conveyor for pcb transport and set of 8 tape feeders and vibratory stick feeder
Complete with stand, build-in pc and set of monitor, keyboard and mouse.

Machine is available at your local dealer.
CE approval is done around the end of JAN
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Online TheSteve

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Re: Neoden 4 pick and place
« Reply #8 on: December 19, 2015, 03:37:06 am »
Machine was stuck in customs today, will be delivered on Monday.
VE7FM
 

Offline rx8pilot

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Re: Neoden 4 pick and place
« Reply #9 on: December 19, 2015, 06:53:44 am »
Has anyone used or even have the new neoden4 pick and place machine?
http://www.neodentech.eu/contents/en-uk/d8_NEODEN4.html

Looks like a reasonable pick and place for the 7.5K. But bad software can make it a expensive paperweight.

I have the liteplacer pick and place and it actually works quite good but no feeders is becoming a problem.
I have been machining some feeders for my Quad IVC that will probably work on Lite Placer. When I finish, I will share the design.

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Online mikeselectricstuff

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Re: Neoden 4 pick and place
« Reply #10 on: December 19, 2015, 11:55:39 am »
More info here :
http://dangerousprototypes.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4903&p=62429
Prices for the feeders are:
60USD/Pcs(8MM)
75USD/Pcs(12mm)
90USD/Pcs(16mm)
If they sell them seperately, these would probably be a good choice for P&P DIYers.
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Offline rx8pilot

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Re: Neoden 4 pick and place
« Reply #11 on: December 19, 2015, 06:23:11 pm »
On this machine, are the tapes indexed by the head?
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Online TheSteve

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Re: Neoden 4 pick and place
« Reply #12 on: December 19, 2015, 06:57:04 pm »
On this machine, are the tapes indexed by the head?

No, they are powered individually.

We ordered the stand, the machine, several nozzles, 40 to 50 feeders, the vibe feeder. Pretty much everything but the conveyor.
It wasn't my call to buy it, but it is replacing a Juki 570. We don't really assemble enough product to truly justify having our own machine but it sure is way more fun then paying someone to do it. It is also small enough we can put our mini production line anywhere.
DHL said we would receive it Friday but in the end it got stuck in customs. I will take pictures of it as soon as it arrives and give details as we set it up and try assembly some boards which should all happen next week.
VE7FM
 

Offline rx8pilot

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Re: Neoden 4 pick and place
« Reply #13 on: December 19, 2015, 06:59:53 pm »
Wow, powered feeders for $60! That is nuts.

Can't wait to see how this thread develops.
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Online TheSteve

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Re: Neoden 4 pick and place
« Reply #14 on: December 19, 2015, 07:08:48 pm »
Yeah, I am not planning to be impressed by it but hope it won't be too terrible.
VE7FM
 

Offline kayvee

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Re: Neoden 4 pick and place
« Reply #15 on: December 19, 2015, 07:41:04 pm »
The claimed placement speed looks a tad optimistic to me, after watching the video.

Be interested to hear some real experience feedback though.
 

Online mikeselectricstuff

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Re: Neoden 4 pick and place
« Reply #16 on: December 19, 2015, 09:36:51 pm »
The claimed placement speed looks a tad optimistic to me, after watching the video.

Be interested to hear some real experience feedback though.
I suspect the claims are based on optimised use of the four heads - It will be interesting to see how well the software deals with this.

It's not clear if it does auto nozzle changes - if not then the mix of nozzles may significantly impact head optimisation. 
« Last Edit: December 20, 2015, 01:33:47 am by mikeselectricstuff »
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Online TheSteve

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Re: Neoden 4 pick and place
« Reply #17 on: December 20, 2015, 07:15:37 am »
The claimed placement speed looks a tad optimistic to me, after watching the video.

Be interested to hear some real experience feedback though.
I suspect the claims are based on optimised use of the four heads - It will be interesting to see how well the software deals with this.

It's not clear if it does auto nozzle changes - if not then the mix of nozzles may significantly impact head optimisation.

It has no ability to change nozzles itself. So in our case we'll probably have three small and one medium loaded at all times or possible two small a medium and a large. I also doubt the software is advanced enough to fully optimize the placement or suggest where feeders should be placed to optimize a build.
We will get to test it well and compare it to the speed of the rather old Juki 570 though. Our biggest board is a 10x10 grid of boards, 1600 parts total. Our Juki could manage it in 47 minutes on a good day. It only had two speeds and the fast was often too fast for fine pitch or larger parts. The NeoDen does look like it will scan the board fiducials much faster then the laser in the Juki though.
VE7FM
 

Online mikeselectricstuff

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Re: Neoden 4 pick and place
« Reply #18 on: December 20, 2015, 10:09:08 am »
It has no ability to change nozzles itself. So in our case we'll probably have three small and one medium loaded at all times or possible two small a medium and a large. I also doubt the software is advanced enough to fully optimize the placement or suggest where feeders should be placed to optimize a build.
That's a disappointing omission, even if it was an option it would be useful. At least you have 4 heads to play with. I would at least hope it has the facility to prompt for manual change so you could maximise nozzles for parts used in large quantities.
Have you seen the software yet?
I doubt there's a huge amount to be gained by feeder optimisation over the obvious thing of manually placing of most-used ones nearest the camera location.
 
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Offline rx8pilot

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Re: Neoden 4 pick and place
« Reply #19 on: December 21, 2015, 11:51:53 pm »
As a P&P owner with intermittent usage (low-volume and prototype), the effort to optimize does not help me much. I am still running my machine at half speed almost all the time because all the other peripheral processes couldn't keep up if I was maxing out the placement machine. The placement speed is secondary to the time it takes to setup, program, and verify in my use case.
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Online mikeselectricstuff

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Re: Neoden 4 pick and place
« Reply #20 on: December 22, 2015, 12:03:25 am »
As a P&P owner with intermittent usage (low-volume and prototype), the effort to optimize does not help me much. I am still running my machine at half speed almost all the time because all the other peripheral processes couldn't keep up if I was maxing out the placement machine. The placement speed is secondary to the time it takes to setup, program, and verify in my use case.
But of course this varies a lot between users. I recently did a PCB with about 3000 LEDs, so making sure they were in the optimal feeder position was definitely worthwhile!
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Offline rx8pilot

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Re: Neoden 4 pick and place
« Reply #21 on: December 22, 2015, 12:21:45 am »
That is no joke. Looks awesome!

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Online TheSteve

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Re: Neoden 4 pick and place
« Reply #22 on: December 22, 2015, 01:07:48 am »
Sigh - the machine is just a few kilometers away from us but DHL still hasn't done any customs clearance.
VE7FM
 

Offline MTNELECTRONICS

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Re: Neoden 4 pick and place
« Reply #23 on: December 22, 2015, 05:39:39 am »
It's my first post here.   :D  I've been lurking for way too long.  I have been watching most of Dave's videos and also all of Mike's videos for the past year or two, so I feel like I'm in good company here. 

TheSteve:  I currently have a LitePlacer P&P that I put together a few months ago, but I am also very interested in the Neoden4, so I look forward to hearing your thoughts on it.  I have read over the owner's manual and watched the training videos and it looks like it is something I can wrap my head around, especially after building the LitePlacer, but I would really like to hear all of your thoughts after receiving the machine. 
 

Online TheSteve

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Re: Neoden 4 pick and place
« Reply #24 on: December 24, 2015, 08:07:20 pm »
DHL finally decided to deliver the new machine yesterday afternoon.

Initial impression is very good, it was shipped in a very solid wood crate that is easy to open and reuse if needed.
The machine is so small that I can't help but think it is "cute" when looking at it. It looks just like a normal PnP machine that has been miniaturized. It is just light enough that two of us can lift it off the shipping base and move it in the shop where it will run.
Here are a few pictures:
VE7FM
 


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