Author Topic: Neoden 4 pick and place  (Read 358469 times)

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Offline mrpackethead

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Re: Neoden 4 pick and place
« Reply #100 on: January 16, 2016, 07:43:35 am »
 :phew:  Thanks Steve, i think youve convinced me to hold off buying this;

buggy software, feeders dont fit and other issues.. Plus the small workspace..  I just think this will need up being a fustrating exercise for me.
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Offline mikeselectricstuff

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Re: Neoden 4 pick and place
« Reply #101 on: January 16, 2016, 11:41:09 am »
Unfortunately it seems to be just what we've come to expect from China - mostly reasonable hardware let down by poor software and lack of attention to details. 

If Neoden want to be taken seriously outside the Chinese market they need to either take on a decent software developer or open source it to let someone else sort it out.
And also get a native speaker to do their promotional video, which currently makes them look ridiculous to any native speaker. 

It's a great pity as it has a ton of potential, and could fill a huge gap in the lower end of the market.
Time will tell - I really do hope it turns into a better machine.
On paper, it's the first machine to be a better option for low-volume users than my 20 year old Versatronics RV, and I'm still seriously considering getting one to replace it at some point, mostly for the long-board capability.

The encouraging thing is that they seem so far to be quite responsive to customers, though from what I've read here it's mostly been to fix issues that shouldn't have occurred in the first place.

Note to Neoden - If you are seriously interested in getting an English re-write of your promo video script, a lot of feedback on software improvements,  and being featured on my Youtube channel, in exchange for a significant discount, please get in touch.

 
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Offline metalphreak

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Re: Neoden 4 pick and place
« Reply #102 on: January 16, 2016, 03:34:46 pm »
Note to Neoden - If you are seriously interested in getting an English re-write of your promo video script, a lot of feedback on software improvements,  and being featured on my Youtube channel, in exchange for a significant discount, please get in touch.

+1 to this. I want to live vicariously through mike's youtube videos. Plus you know mike has experience with PnP machines, making pcbs, and doing intensely technical and entertaining videos.

Offline trevwhite

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Re: Neoden 4 pick and place
« Reply #103 on: January 16, 2016, 05:34:05 pm »
Best thing they could do is take Mike up on his offer.
 

Offline Jefferson

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Re: Neoden 4 pick and place
« Reply #104 on: January 16, 2016, 05:44:46 pm »
But today no one else makes such P&PM for small businesses
 

Offline mikeselectricstuff

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Re: Neoden 4 pick and place
« Reply #105 on: January 16, 2016, 06:27:13 pm »
But today no one else makes such P&PM for small businesses
Absolutely true, and about time this changed - despite being about 20 years old, a used Versatronics RV4 is still the best bang/buck for a small pick & place, and has been for at least a decade.

The Neoden4 could finally change this. The quad-head solution, with vision of all heads at once is a very neat way to improve throughput without needing the expense of super-fast mechanicals.
And the conveyor system to handle long PCBs puts it ahead of many mid to high-end machines - AFAIK there is no other low to mid range (<$50k) machine available that can do this.

Probably the closest is the Mechatronika M10V, but only single head, a bit slow and rather limited feeder options. Don't recall offhand what the pricing is but ISTR somewhere 2-3x the cost of the Neoden4. 

Which is why I really hope Neoden get their act together - they have the potential to sell very well outside of China, but to do this they have to supply machines that don't need much support to get going, provide good support where needed, and have a more professional approach to marketing than some Chinglish videos on Youtube.

Although they could partner with an existing European/US SM equipment distributor, the risk in doing this is that their machines  will be too much competition for existing expensive lines that distributors make more margin on. And of course distributors will want margin.

For a machine as small as this, selling direct is a perfectly viable approach, but it is even more important that it works out of the box than the more traditional situation of a company engineer coming out to commission a new machine.

Once they have production well under way and dealt with what are hopefully teething troubles,  they would do well to hire a couple of EU and US sales people and set up a couple of machines in the back of vans for demonstrations.


 
« Last Edit: January 16, 2016, 06:39:44 pm by mikeselectricstuff »
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Offline mrpackethead

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Re: Neoden 4 pick and place
« Reply #106 on: January 16, 2016, 07:58:35 pm »
While researching this, I've run into another company in china, making something that is similar in terms of specification and price.     

A machine with 40 feeders ( including the feeders ) 4 head pickup, vision etc, was quoted to me at just under $10,000 USD.

http://en.boreytech.com/a/product/taishi/32.html?cut=22

I think we'll see a raft of these machines turn up in the market this year and it will become a competitive thing, so they all will have to lift their game.. quality and price will get impacted.
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Offline mikeselectricstuff

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Re: Neoden 4 pick and place
« Reply #107 on: January 16, 2016, 08:10:11 pm »
While researching this, I've run into another company in china, making something that is similar in terms of specification and price.     

A machine with 40 feeders ( including the feeders ) 4 head pickup, vision etc, was quoted to me at just under $10,000 USD.

http://en.boreytech.com/a/product/taishi/32.html?cut=22

I think we'll see a raft of these machines turn up in the market this year and it will become a competitive thing, so they all will have to lift their game.. quality and price will get impacted.
I fear that it will be a race to the bottom, and end up with a number of machines that all have good and bad points, with none being nearly as good as they could be, and universally poor software.
 At least Neoden have some head start in a sort-of track record with previous machines, but they need to make the  effort to understand what users need, be responsive and keep quality high, even if it means not being the cheapest.
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Online TheSteve

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Re: Neoden 4 pick and place
« Reply #108 on: January 16, 2016, 08:23:46 pm »
Based on what I've seen so far if they improved the software they could raise the price a little and it would be well worth it. Many aspects of the machine are very good. They have been very responsive so far, if they could knock out 10 bugs/features in the software and then generate any kind of proper manual I can really see people being very successful with the machine. If nothing else once a few of us have the machine and compare notes it will get people up and running quickly with it.
As an example we spent way longer then should have been needed on the camera issue with the FT232RL, had we known about the config option behind the password protected menu it would have been quick to solve.
VE7FM
 

Offline Jefferson

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Re: Neoden 4 pick and place
« Reply #109 on: January 16, 2016, 08:44:38 pm »
I think it will be hard, and not to quickly make high precision for Neoden 4.
H/W combined solution tightly for P&PM.
In Holland Neoden for EU already have agent.
Mechatronika M10V unsuccessful in the past year, I've seen the guys from Austria, which greatly disappointed.
 

Offline mikeselectricstuff

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Re: Neoden 4 pick and place
« Reply #110 on: January 16, 2016, 08:52:30 pm »
As an example we spent way longer then should have been needed on the camera issue with the FT232RL, had we known about the config option behind the password protected menu it would have been quick to solve.
Was this a password they had already supplied, or something you had to ask for? If the latter, this is definitely not acceptable. Passwords to prevent less skilled operators messing things up are fine, but anything that prevents the user doing something without asking the manufacturer are not.
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Offline Jefferson

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Re: Neoden 4 pick and place
« Reply #111 on: January 16, 2016, 08:59:17 pm »
Even competitors also Chinglish http://www.qihekj.com/en/product/html/?45.html
 

Online TheSteve

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Re: Neoden 4 pick and place
« Reply #112 on: January 16, 2016, 10:05:21 pm »
As an example we spent way longer then should have been needed on the camera issue with the FT232RL, had we known about the config option behind the password protected menu it would have been quick to solve.
Was this a password they had already supplied, or something you had to ask for? If the latter, this is definitely not acceptable. Passwords to prevent less skilled operators messing things up are fine, but anything that prevents the user doing something without asking the manufacturer are not.

They had given us the password previously(we had to ask for it) but we didn't know the option was there as some features were added in the newer firmware they sent us. This is one of those items where clicking around and checking out every single last menu and option until you can remember them all is pretty useful.

Since then I had a poke around, there will be no need to ask for any passwords in the future :)
VE7FM
 

Offline mrpackethead

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Re: Neoden 4 pick and place
« Reply #113 on: January 16, 2016, 10:43:48 pm »
or open source it

Wonder if this is possible, just biff their software completely and use something like openpnp
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Online TheSteve

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Re: Neoden 4 pick and place
« Reply #114 on: January 16, 2016, 11:33:53 pm »
If they were to open source it I can see there being some very quick major improvements.
VE7FM
 

Offline rx8pilot

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Re: Neoden 4 pick and place
« Reply #115 on: January 17, 2016, 12:35:19 am »
For low cost,  entry level - open source would be great.

I could design and build a machine like this with my eyes closed. Open software would make that interesting. As a small business, I need reliability above all else. My experience with low end Chinese manufacturers is universally bad.

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Offline Brumby

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Re: Neoden 4 pick and place
« Reply #116 on: January 17, 2016, 03:00:18 am »
It occurred to me that there would be an avenue for scalability that will address - to some extent - the reel limit and speed.  Quite simply, set up multiple machines in a continuous production line.  I'm sure this isn't a new idea, but with costs heading downwards, it would seem to become more economically viable for the smaller end of the market.

With appropriate software, you would only need one setup process for the whole line.

Expansion would be simple, incremental and thus more affordable and if there is a machine failure, then only one need be taken out of service while the rest keep working.

Is Neoden thinking along these lines?
 

Online helius

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Re: Neoden 4 pick and place
« Reply #117 on: January 17, 2016, 03:05:39 am »
Several of the videos from China in this thread show several machines in a line. I don't know if there are special software features.
 

Offline mrpackethead

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Re: Neoden 4 pick and place
« Reply #118 on: January 17, 2016, 03:11:59 am »

http://www.aliexpress.com/store/all-wholesale-products/1874253.html

20mm Z Axis height.. Feeders without an extra "peel" box..

Bigger workspace..

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Offline mikeselectricstuff

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Re: Neoden 4 pick and place
« Reply #119 on: January 17, 2016, 12:00:35 pm »

http://www.aliexpress.com/store/all-wholesale-products/1874253.html

20mm Z Axis height.. Feeders without an extra "peel" box..

But what does "4.5mm suction nozzle buffer range" mean?
Deceptive pricing - the "real" prices are buried in the shipping cost once you get to the product pages.
Their long-board machines are huge
And.. aliexpress.....?
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Offline mrpackethead

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Re: Neoden 4 pick and place
« Reply #120 on: January 17, 2016, 06:14:15 pm »
But what does "4.5mm suction nozzle buffer range" mean?
Deceptive pricing - the "real" prices are buried in the shipping cost once you get to the product pages.
Their long-board machines are huge
And.. aliexpress.....?

Not sure what 4.5m suction nozzle buffer is

I'd not pay $4000 to ship 200kg, granted. But  they quoted me a whole lot less for sea freight, and even then I'd have to lcl container moved for a few hundred dollars.     

I'm not really interested in "long boards". different problem.

And Aliexpress?   Its a great window for finding stuff.   Its no less reliable than Amazon, or ebay.   And you can buy a Neoden on aliepxress as well, but you can also buy it directly..
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Offline sedelman

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Re: Neoden 4 pick and place
« Reply #121 on: January 19, 2016, 03:21:12 am »

We spent a considerable amount of time evaluating low-cost pick-and-place options over the last year.

I consider the Mechatronika M10V the most desirable out of all of them, despite that it has only one pickup head, it has a very solid construction and the only one that provides solder paste dispensing capabilities. This eliminates the needs for solder paste stencils, etc.

The cost that we were quoted for the base machine is 14600 EUR. You then need to add feeders at a cost of 2700 - 3600 EUR for a feeder package. For example, 10 x 8mm, 2 x 12mm, 2 x 16mm feeders is 2700 EUR. The vibration feeder is another 780 EUR.

The solder paste dispenser and needle is approx. 2400EUR. Therefore, a complete system would run approx. 20500 EUR.

We also looked at the Neoden TM220A and TM240A, but without vision, these are just hobbyist toys, in our opinion. Alternatives based on the same form factor with vision are:

Charmhigh CMHT48VA - 29 feeders and Dual cameras and fully integrated control system for $5600 US (free shipping)
Unlike the Neoden TM220A and TM240A this uses a fully closed loop control system (using encoders) to prevent stepper motor missteps. It also uses Juki standard pickup nozzles and a retractable pull pin for advancing the feeder. The bulk of their customer base appears to be in India.

http://www.aliexpress.com/item/Charmhigh-CMHT48VA-Pick-and-Place-Machine-Full-Automatic-Chip-Mounter-with-Vision-System-English-Version-110v/32502909690.html

TVM802A (27 feeders) and TVM802B (47 feeders) http://www.zjyingxing.com/e_products/TVM802A-126.html
Dual camera system but requires software on an external PC. Uses USB and Ethernet for control (not sure why both are required). The camera system recognition and software appear much slower than the CMHT48VA.

Hope this helps someone.
 

Online TheSteve

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Re: Neoden 4 pick and place
« Reply #122 on: January 19, 2016, 04:00:20 am »
I think the "buffer" size is how much compression the nozzle can handle.

Loaded up the machine today, installed a new firmware version. Hope to build some boards tomorrow.
VE7FM
 

Offline rx8pilot

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Re: Neoden 4 pick and place
« Reply #123 on: January 19, 2016, 04:55:18 am »

We spent a considerable amount of time evaluating low-cost pick-and-place options over the last year.

I consider the Mechatronika M10V the most desirable out of all of them, despite that it has only one pickup head, it has a very solid construction and the only one that provides solder paste dispensing capabilities. This eliminates the needs for solder paste stencils, etc.

The single head is not much of a real limitation for small volume work. If you are planning to have a dispenser, I assume you are not concerned about a super speed workflow. I looked at getting a dispenser for my Quad but in the end, framed stencils are only $200 and they are so easy and predictable. Manual re-work on fine pitch parts gets old really fast, so the dispenser system better be very good and very consistent.

I made a JEDEC sized tray that does 8mm - 56mm cut tape, may be an interesting idea for these machines. I am not selling them, but could provide the info if you need. They allow me to use many different parts in a single setup where a typical tray is a ton of one single part type. 6in or 12in cut tapes.

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Offline Kjelt

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Re: Neoden 4 pick and place
« Reply #124 on: January 19, 2016, 08:11:55 am »
Loaded up the machine today, installed a new firmware version. Hope to build some boards tomorrow.
Looks good, what are you building?
 


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