Author Topic: Neoden 4 pick and place  (Read 359047 times)

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Offline rwb

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Re: Neoden 4 pick and place
« Reply #125 on: January 19, 2016, 05:53:13 pm »
@Sedelman  That Charmhigh CMHT48VA machine looks pretty nice and the price is good also. Thanks for posting that up for us to consider. I like that it's max pickup height is 15mm vs the 5mm of the Neoden.

https://youtu.be/uUojsxN_BQg

@TheSteve Looking forward to seeing how your first board run goes.
« Last Edit: January 19, 2016, 06:14:22 pm by rwb »
 

Offline sedelman

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Re: Neoden 4 pick and place
« Reply #126 on: January 20, 2016, 01:43:41 pm »

There are some impressive videos of the CMHT48VA on Youku.com (Chinese Youtube) that demonstrate the 4000 cph that they claim is possible with vision. You can clearly see it positioning the part over the camera before placing it but it is doing it at less than 1 part per second. They of course place the parts close to the camera to achieve this to minimize head X-Y distance traveled, but it is impressive nonetheless.

I've reached out to them and asked them for a North American customer who has purchased the machine in the last 12 months so I can find out their experiences with the machine as well as the customer service. I'll keep updating this thread as I learn more.
 

Offline Kjelt

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Re: Neoden 4 pick and place
« Reply #127 on: January 20, 2016, 02:35:21 pm »
4000EUR at taobao will become about 6000EUR after taxes and import and shipping, still a very good price and almost at hobbieist level. This is a great step forwards.
 

Offline mikeselectricstuff

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Re: Neoden 4 pick and place
« Reply #128 on: January 20, 2016, 03:28:25 pm »
@Sedelman  That Charmhigh CMHT48VA machine looks pretty nice and the price is good also. Thanks for posting that up for us to consider. I like that it's max pickup height is 15mm vs the 5mm of the Neoden.

https://youtu.be/uUojsxN_BQg

@TheSteve Looking forward to seeing how your first board run goes.
But why is it only using one head - oh, let me guess -crappy software perhaps?

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Offline TheSteve

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Re: Neoden 4 pick and place
« Reply #129 on: January 20, 2016, 05:37:09 pm »
So we did do some of our production boards yesterday. It was a little frustrating but we eventually got a few boards made. Found another bug or two in the software. Had a few issues with parts alignment but we're not sure yet if its our programming or the machine. More time and experimentation is needed.
VE7FM
 

Offline rwb

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Re: Neoden 4 pick and place
« Reply #130 on: January 20, 2016, 05:39:54 pm »
@mikeselectricalstuff  I'm not sure just yet. 

I did read you can use both heads with different juki nozzle sizes for picking different part sizes.  So I'd be surprised if both heads couldn't be used at the same time. 

I guess it can place 4000 CPH which is really close to Neo Dens 5000 CPH with vision on.  I would assume it would be pretty hard to place 4000 CPH with vision with only 1 head working. 

For 5k + free shipping it looks like it could be a really good option.  I wonder if it can place 10mm tall caps?

Looking forward to how well the Neoden 4 works out also.
 

Offline mikeselectricstuff

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Re: Neoden 4 pick and place
« Reply #131 on: January 20, 2016, 06:01:44 pm »
@mikeselectricalstuff  I'm not sure just yet. 

I did read you can use both heads with different juki nozzle sizes for picking different part sizes.  So I'd be surprised if both heads couldn't be used at the same time. 

I guess it can place 4000 CPH which is really close to Neo Dens 5000 CPH with vision on.  I would assume it would be pretty hard to place 4000 CPH with vision with only 1 head working. 

For 5k + free shipping it looks like it could be a really good option.  I wonder if it can place 10mm tall caps?

Looking forward to how well the Neoden 4 works out also.
I think a major impovement with Neoden4 is imaging multiple heads at once - I wonder if that other machine can do that.
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Offline sedelman

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Re: Neoden 4 pick and place
« Reply #132 on: January 21, 2016, 07:54:08 am »

From the software that Charmhigh provided me to generate the PnP file that the CHMT48VA machine needs, you have to specify which head the machine is to use for which component. Therefore, it appears that their firmware does not automatically use the second head or optimize its use. It is up to you to specify this. From what I understand is that the machine works out of the box for Protel and Altium generated files (but likely only for a single head - I have not looked into this), but you'll need their converter software to deal with other formats.

For Eagle users, it looks like it is trivial to update the mountsmd.ulp script to output the appropriate PnP file that uses the second head. An immediate performance improvement is to have the second head pick up the same part as the first head. More sophisticated improvements could look at minimizing head travel during pickup and placement (which means you would not necessarily pickup the same part on head 1 and 2).

So far I have not heard back from Charmhigh about a North American customer who uses the machine. They indicated that the CMHT48VA is an improved version over the original CMHT48V model and that they just released it in October last year and don't have any North American customers yet. They were going to provide me with a contact that uses the older model.
 

Offline mikeselectricstuff

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Re: Neoden 4 pick and place
« Reply #133 on: January 21, 2016, 08:44:04 am »

From the software that Charmhigh provided me to generate the PnP file that the CHMT48VA machine needs,
Do they document their PnP file format?
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Offline sedelman

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Re: Neoden 4 pick and place
« Reply #134 on: January 21, 2016, 01:37:22 pm »

No, but their converter software generates text files (see Akshaya-dpv.txt - the original generated file has a .dpv extension) from a comma-separated file (see Akshaya-csv.txt). Their converter software is clunky and difficult to understand despite that it is in English.
 

Offline Jefferson

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Re: Neoden 4 pick and place
« Reply #135 on: January 21, 2016, 01:46:55 pm »
p&p files all the same, the difference is small. You can edit it and easily I think.
 

Offline rwb

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Re: Neoden 4 pick and place
« Reply #136 on: January 21, 2016, 03:41:06 pm »
@sedelman  Can you verify the max part height of the CHMT48VA? I looked online but that specific info was not listed. I thought it was 15mm but not sure where I picked that up at now.

Also how responsive has your contact at Charmhigh been? Care to share their email? The machine looks like a winner for my needs, its a shame there is not a USA based supplier for something like this.
 

Offline sedelman

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Re: Neoden 4 pick and place
« Reply #137 on: January 21, 2016, 06:15:08 pm »

The CHMT48VA looks very good to me also, but I've dealt enough with Chinese suppliers to know that you have to do your due diligence, so actual customer feedback is going to be important before I make a decision. From the information that I have come across, the Z-axis travel specified is 15mm. Whether this is factual, I do not know.

The similar looking TVM802A and TVM802B units from another manufacturer (QiHe / zjyingxing) do not give me as much confidence, despite that it has dual pickup heads, dual cameras and appear to be functionally the same. There are a number of videos of this machine on YouTube (from customers) that suggest to me that the pickup/placement accuracy is no better than what you would expect from a Neoden TM220A/TM240A without vision.  The following website indicates that the machine only uses one camera directly, the second camera is strictly used by the software you run on a PC to assist with the initial alignment:

http://www.matthiasm.com/tvm802a_3.html

The other issue is the smaller travel area compared to the CMHT48VA and the fact that they do not use stepper encoders for step verification. This means that a misstep by one of the motors will result in a placement error without the machine knowing this. The CMHT48VA has a closed loop control system with encoders on the stepper motors, so I misstep can be corrected on the fly. The CMHT48VA also has a slot next to the feeders that allows you to feed the empty tapes down so that they are out of the way. With the TVM series you have to run the empty tapes underneath the PCB to the other side of the machine. Yes, it's mostly cosmetic but that matters to me. Lastly, the CMHT48VA uses an embedded Linux system booted using an internal flash drive that allows the machine to operate standalone. You provide the PnP file using a supplied USB thumbdrive. The TVM series requires an Ethernet connection and USB (presumably for the second camera) and requires software on a dedicated PC.

This is what I know so far, so I am leaning towards the CMHT48VA, pending the outcome of the Neoden4 evaluation that is being detailed by TheSteve on this thread.

My contact has been Kimi Liu:

Kimi Liu
kimi@charmhigh-tech.com
Tel: +86 135 106 75756
Skype: kimiliu89

 

Offline mrpackethead

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Re: Neoden 4 pick and place
« Reply #138 on: January 21, 2016, 06:22:51 pm »
The CHMT48VA looks very good to me also, but I've dealt enough with Chinese suppliers to know that you have to do your due diligence, so actual customer feedback is going to be important before I make a decision. From the information that I have come across, the Z-axis travel specified is 15mm. Whether this is factual, I do not know.

I've dealt with enough Humans globally to know that you have to do your due diligence.  Its not just a chinese thing.   Theres plenty of crappy suppliers everywhere.

On a quest to find increasingly complicated ways to blink things
 

Offline sedelman

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Re: Neoden 4 pick and place
« Reply #139 on: January 21, 2016, 07:11:07 pm »
@mrpackethead agreed, but Chinese suppliers are capable of a level of deceit that I have not seen with many other suppliers. The mentality is so ingrained that they don't loose any sleep over it and in fact, they feel that they are at a competitive disadvantage if they don't do it (because they know their competitors are doing it). My wife, who is Chinese, has heightened my senses as to what suppliers in China are capable of. So, I'm looking to make sure that the camera system on these units is actually functional, and not just flashing for my entertainment.
 

Offline mrpackethead

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Re: Neoden 4 pick and place
« Reply #140 on: January 21, 2016, 07:19:53 pm »
@mrpackethead agreed, but Chinese suppliers are capable of a level of deceit that I have not seen with many other suppliers. The mentality is so ingrained that they don't loose any sleep over it and in fact, they feel that they are at a competitive disadvantage if they don't do it (because they know their competitors are doing it). My wife, who is Chinese, has heightened my senses as to what suppliers in China are capable of. So, I'm looking to make sure that the camera system on these units is actually functional, and not just flashing for my entertainment.

The worst deceit i've experienced has been from German Suppliers as it happens.     I've been let down by Australians, Chinese, Americas, New Zealanders, Germans and Koreans..     Theres good and bad everywhere, and basing things based on someones race, is going to land you in trouble.
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Offline sedelman

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Re: Neoden 4 pick and place
« Reply #141 on: January 21, 2016, 07:28:08 pm »

@mrpackethead, I didn't create this reality, I'm simply indicating what is governing my decisions. Take it as you will.
 

Online wraper

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Re: Neoden 4 pick and place
« Reply #142 on: January 21, 2016, 07:51:42 pm »
he worst deceit i've experienced has been from German Suppliers as it happens.     I've been let down by Australians, Chinese, Americas, New Zealanders, Germans and Koreans..     Theres good and bad everywhere, and basing things based on someones race, is going to land you in trouble.
Yet the Chinese are among those from whom you most likely should expect surprises. For example their mentality, you can have a deal with them and be 100% sure that you have 100% solid deal where all nuances are agreed. Hell NO, it's you who are thinking there is an agreement, not them. You can ask them time to time if all is going fine as per the agreement. They will always answer yes, all as expected... until you receive the product of their work. They always will try to do something in their own way, "rationalize" and so on. I deal with them only remotely (but have some "experience") though I personally know some people who deal with them directly. And what the say is that dealing with Chinese is hard as fuck.
« Last Edit: January 21, 2016, 08:04:56 pm by wraper »
 

Offline mikeselectricstuff

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Re: Neoden 4 pick and place
« Reply #143 on: January 21, 2016, 08:03:15 pm »
Never ever ask a question that can be answered "yes". "What have you done?", not "have you done xxxx?"
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Offline mrpackethead

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Re: Neoden 4 pick and place
« Reply #144 on: January 21, 2016, 08:15:09 pm »
I do business in china every day. both remotely from my desk and on the multiple trips per year.   Theres people there who i trust and they trust me,  years and hundreds of transactions later, its going good.

Buiness is hard.  Business in China is made harder by some that the Chinese will produce amazing quality good at redicoulsy low prices, and many folks want to pay nearly nothing for it.   

Its all about expectation.    Anyway, thats all i'll say, this has got a bit off topic, but it just makes me a bit angry and disappointed when people make broad sweeping comments about large groups of people based on race.

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Offline rx8pilot

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Re: Neoden 4 pick and place
« Reply #145 on: January 21, 2016, 08:16:29 pm »
I have had sufficient challenges dealing with Chinese vendors that I will avoid it if at all possible. I will pay extra to avoid dealing with Chinese products and companies. There is too little time to bother with the expected silly businesses and terrible products that are so common. There are some gems in there somewhere, but I will not take the time and financial risks digging for a sliver of gold.

I do keep my eyes on what others experience so I can see if any good stuff surfaces. There is also the fact that a number of my own products have been copied (very poorly) in China and sold for less than my hard costs.

Neoden sort of seems like they are paving their own road which is good. They need to focus on making the product good, not cheap. After it is a good product that is stable and meets the needs of the target market, then they can do some post cost engineering to finalize the margins. This machine is a good start, but I would be scared if my business depended on it.
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Offline rx8pilot

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Re: Neoden 4 pick and place
« Reply #146 on: January 21, 2016, 08:23:37 pm »
Its all about expectation.    Anyway, thats all i'll say, this has got a bit off topic, but it just makes me a bit angry and disappointed when people make broad sweeping comments about large groups of people based on race.

I can only go by my average experience when I am making a business decision. There is no way for me to know anything about the individuals and the nuances of the culture. I do know my own experiences dealing with Chinese companies and what I see out in the wild. While it is true that bad things and bad people are scattered all over the world, I have seen a heavier concentration in China. I cannot afford to take risks so I don't do it. There are a number of other companies that I have worked with that have taken the time to find the gold in China but not without kissing a number of frogs.

Trust is earned. I put China on my blacklist based on actual experiences. This of course is very sweeping but what else should I do? When I start hearing more good stories than bad, I will give them a chance with a low-value project.
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Offline sedelman

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Re: Neoden 4 pick and place
« Reply #147 on: January 21, 2016, 08:36:49 pm »
The ironic thing is that very few Chinese will object to what I have stated because the majority believe it to be true. The majority of Chinese people don't trust Chinese suppliers. End of story. Case in point, baby formula. They are buying it by the truckload from all over the world, especially from Japan because they don't trust local brands and suppliers. Google "2008 Chinese Milk Scandal" for reference, which made international headlines. These types of occurrences happen with such a frequency that consumer confidence for Chinese brands in China is at an all time low. I believe what you are seeing with the whole German VW emissions debacle is a once-in-a-lifetime occurrence, whereas the Chinese people get confronted with that level of deceit on a weekly basis. Anyway, enough said.
 

Offline Kjelt

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Re: Neoden 4 pick and place
« Reply #148 on: January 21, 2016, 10:09:11 pm »
Still some of the most high end products where western companies charge high prices for and have excellent quality are made in China. A lot of western companies let their products be made in China.
You just need to know who you are dealing with and most of us do not know that.
 

Offline rwb

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Re: Neoden 4 pick and place
« Reply #149 on: January 21, 2016, 10:18:43 pm »
I get some pretty high quality and good priced solar products out of China. To date I have not received less than expected, I do consider my self lucky.

I feel getting a good quality PNP out of China is certainly a possibility but it's to early to tell since so few people in the USA have them and have shared their experience.

@TheSteve Any updates on your NeoDen4 progress?

Also can any of the more experienced guys give any commend on how much money and frustration a 5-10K machine with Vision that worked correctly could save a small business who may have a need to make up to lets say 10-100 boards a month?

I know having your own machine can cut down on how long you have to wait to get the boards completed but I'm not sure how much money one could expect to possibly save. I'm sure it depends on what type of board your producing but I would love some real world feedback on this aspect of having a small in house PNP machine.

Here are some more videos of the CharmHigh System and what the vision looks like while operating:

http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XODc2MjUyMDU2.html?from=s1.8-1-1.2

Here is a video showing it using both heads with the vision: http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XODM4MTMzNTA0.html?from=s1.8-1-1.2#paction

And here is a 15 min video of a guy showing you how to setup the Charmhigh machine via the built in computer.  He speaks in a foreign language.  I wonder if YouTube could transcribe it automatically?

http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XODgwNTIyMzg0.html?from=y7.7-1-102.4.1-1.12-1-2-0&x

And one more video of the machine in action: http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMTI1NzcxNjgyNA==.html?from=s1.8-1-1.2

To me this machine and the NeoDen 4 look to be some of the best small vision based machines on the market.

CharmHigh emailed me back with the user manual for the system were seeing in the above videos. Here is a link to that user manual if anybody wants to look it over.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/hgnof608x1isilu/Charmhigh%20Automatic%20Chip%20Mounter%EF%BC%88CHMT48VA%EF%BC%89Operating%20Manual%28new150922%29.pdf?dl=0
« Last Edit: January 22, 2016, 03:59:55 am by rwb »
 


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