Author Topic: Neoden 4 pick and place  (Read 357515 times)

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Offline mikeselectricstuff

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Re: Neoden 4 pick and place
« Reply #1350 on: July 19, 2018, 05:27:51 pm »
If a feeder can kill a PSU, that's a piss-poor PSU design
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Offline rx8pilot

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Re: Neoden 4 pick and place
« Reply #1351 on: July 20, 2018, 06:06:48 pm »
If a feeder can kill a PSU, that's a piss-poor PSU design

No kidding -
you should be able to dead short it, pulse it, etc without smoke. Especially in a system where modules (feeders) are constantly being hot-swapped.

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Offline rom67

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Re: Neoden 4 pick and place
« Reply #1352 on: July 31, 2018, 03:50:10 pm »
Guys, what is the last firmware for NeoDen4?
It seems the Chinese developers has stopped supporting the NeoDen.
There are no new firmwares for a 7 monthes.. (by Bryan from NeoDen).
 

Offline luiHS

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Re: Neoden 4 pick and place
« Reply #1353 on: August 02, 2018, 12:30:33 am »
Guys, what is the last firmware for NeoDen4?
It seems the Chinese developers has stopped supporting the NeoDen.
There are no new firmwares for a 7 monthes.. (by Bryan from NeoDen).

This weekend I have to work with mine, I'll check it.
In any case, have you asked Elli, of Neoden, about this?,  I sent her a Skype message to see what she says.

I do not know if it is necessary or they should give frequent firmware updates, either to correct bugs, if there are any, or to offer new features, if they are needed.

Offline SMT-Ellie

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Re: Neoden 4 pick and place
« Reply #1354 on: August 02, 2018, 12:55:10 am »
Hello Rom67,

This is Ellie from NeoDen.
The most using firmware version that sending to customer is Version v4.1.3 B2(Issued on Dec 5th, 2017). But don't worry we are still keep doing update and improvement always.

The latest one V4.1.3 B8 was lanuched on May,2018, need 1-2 months to testing on the machine.
Now this latest version already issued in August, if any one need this version or any support, pls contact with Bryan(support@neodentech.con) or Me(Ellie: sales4@neodentech.com).

Thanks for your support always. :) :)

Best Regard

Ellie Wang
« Last Edit: August 03, 2018, 01:04:54 am by SMT-Ellie »
 
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Offline rom67

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Re: Neoden 4 pick and place
« Reply #1355 on: August 02, 2018, 02:14:00 pm »
Ellie, luiHS thank you very much!
I've wrote every month to the Bryan about new updates. The last answer from Bryan at May, 5.
He said that there are no new firmwares. It's very strange!!
 

Offline zwheat

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Re: Neoden 4 pick and place
« Reply #1356 on: August 03, 2018, 03:57:44 pm »
Hi all,

Hoping you can help me solve some confusion. In setting up our Neoden machines for a new build coming up, we are rearranging some feeders back to where they were after this current project. The problem I have run into, is that I have 5 or so feeders that wont run with any of the feed box commands. Ive been through 48 of them, backward and forward, and these 5 will not run, no matter what number comes up. Any ideas whats going on?

I even tried moving one or two to the other machine to see if anything changes and those still wont run on command. Not sure what we are missing.
 

Offline MAelektronik

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Re: Neoden 4 pick and place
« Reply #1357 on: August 07, 2018, 06:34:55 am »
Ellie, what has been updated in latest version?
 

Offline rom67

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Re: Neoden 4 pick and place
« Reply #1358 on: August 16, 2018, 04:44:45 pm »
Ellie has disappeared after single answer...
 

Offline luiHS

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Re: Neoden 4 pick and place
« Reply #1359 on: August 18, 2018, 09:44:39 am »
Ellie has disappeared after single answer...


Ellie no longer works at Neoden, you'll have to contact Bryan or Steven.

Offline rom67

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Re: Neoden 4 pick and place
« Reply #1360 on: August 22, 2018, 06:45:30 am »
luiHS thank you!

PS: By the way Ellie has changed hers last answer at the forum. She deleted any information about issued firmwares. Is it so secret information?
Hope the post here did not cause the dissmisal.
 

Offline Kjelt

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Re: Neoden 4 pick and place
« Reply #1361 on: August 22, 2018, 10:01:19 am »
luiHS thank you!
PS: By the way Ellie has changed hers last answer at the forum. She deleted any information about issued firmwares. Is it so secret information?
Hope the post here did not cause the dissmisal.

{speculation mode on} perhaps disclosing this information on a public forum is why she does not work there anymore ? {speculation mode off}
 

Offline rx8pilot

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Re: Neoden 4 pick and place
« Reply #1362 on: August 22, 2018, 03:14:02 pm »
luiHS thank you!
PS: By the way Ellie has changed hers last answer at the forum. She deleted any information about issued firmwares. Is it so secret information?
Hope the post here did not cause the dissmisal.

{speculation mode on} perhaps disclosing this information on a public forum is why she does not work there anymore ? {speculation mode off}

Either way......

1. Lack of information is crap
2. Lack of development is crap
3. Changing your post is crap
4. Leaving everyone to wonder and speculate is crap

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Offline NeoDen-Haimi

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Re: Neoden 4 pick and place
« Reply #1363 on: August 23, 2018, 01:34:53 am »
luiHS thank you!

PS: By the way Ellie has changed hers last answer at the forum. She deleted any information about issued firmwares. Is it so secret information?
Hope the post here did not cause the dissmisal.

Hi Dear Rom,
Nice to know you here,this is Haimi from NeoDen.
Ellie not work in NeoDen,she back to hometown,get married and work there now.

I work in NeoDen since 2014,and I am the Senior sales representative.

About the software,our latest version is V4.1.3 B8 launched in May,2018.Until now,no update version.
We will let you know once we have.

Really appreciate your support on NeoDen and choose our machine.

As we not visit this forum frequently,we advice all of you write to us by email if need any support or have any question.

Thanks and best regards
Haimi

Email:haimi@neodentech.com
Skype:haimi2008
 

Offline NeoDen-Haimi

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Re: Neoden 4 pick and place
« Reply #1364 on: August 23, 2018, 01:44:58 am »
Hi Zwheat,
How are you?
Did you fix your problem?
May we have your SN code?We advice you write to us by email ,our engineer Bryan will help you on this.
My email:haimi@neodentech.com
Engineer Bryan:support@neodentech.com

We not visit this forum frequently,if need any support,write to us directly will be more efficient. :) :)

Thanks and best regards
Haimi
 

Offline daneduplooy

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Re: Neoden 4 pick and place
« Reply #1365 on: August 23, 2018, 07:31:48 am »
Hi eevblog forumers :)

I'm new here and basically just signed up to write a review on Neoden, in order to say "thank-you" to them for excellent service received. I have not read through the previous ~55 pages of this thread.

We purchased a Neoden4 around 4 months ago. The machine has been running well since then, and I think we've pushed around 300 x ~65 component boards through it so far (with another 170 going through at the moment). At this stage we are placing 0805s up to largeish modules (15x30mm), finest pitch 0.5mm. In that time we have had a few support queries with Neoden, and the response has always been fast and accurate; where they have even suspected that there might be something wrong with the machine (turned out not to be the case, just an incorrect setting in the software) they have immediately offered to send replacement parts (for free).
"Issues" we have had so far are:
Placement Accuracy
Neoden sent us a detailed document regarding recommended methods to improve placement accuracy. We littered a few more fiducials around our boards (especially around the fine-pitch components) and this helped a lot. Overall, for a belt drive machine, the accuracy is not bad. We do go over the boards as they come out the machine, and tweak placement slightly if necessary (we wouldn't take them straight out the machine and into the oven without checking them at this stage), but once again if you want super-accuracy then you probably need to be spending $$$ - the machine has very good value considering it's price point.
Feeder Not Feeding Correctly
Turned out to be an incorrect feed value setting (must be a multiple of 4[mm], and we somehow got it set to 6 - granted 6 should not really be a selectable value in the software if it's not valid, but really not serious). In this case Neoden immediately offered to ship us a replacement feeder, and there was actually nothing wrong with the feeder (software issue, as mentioned).
Blown Fuse
Main fuse on the machine blew, probably due to a bad plug-point connection on our side, and we initially missed the location of the fuse (built into the IEC connector at the back) due to having the machine packed into a tight space and being decoyed by a different fuse elsewhere on the machine.
Nozzles 1 & 2 Not Travelling Fully
Turned out to be two grub screws on the nozzle 1 & 2 rocker arm which had come loose - quick and easy fix. After explaining the symptoms Neoden quickly identified the exact cause of the issue and sent us a document with pictures explaining how to fix it.

Of all of the above cases, only the nozzle travel one was actually an issue with the machine itself, and this was once again a simple fix (tighten two grub screws).

The main point of this review is that Neoden's support (in our experience so far) is excellent, which I think makes a big difference versus buying a machine and then being completely stuck and on your own if something goes wrong with it.

In terms of review of the actual machine itself, and besides for what has already been mentioned; we do not have a huge amount of experience in the SMT industry and so can't "compare" that much, but overall are (again, as mentioned) very happy with the value of the machine. I will try to provide some further review of the machine itself below:

We have built up from scratch, assembling our first boards by hand and "reflowing" them on a stovetop. From there we got a LitePlacer and pizza/toaster oven, and from there the Neoden4 and a desktop automated batch oven. Compared to assembling by hand, the Neoden4 is obviously a huge improvement  :).
Speed
The machine is more than fast enough for what we need, and it stands waiting for us to complete pasting / reflow / etc (rather than the other processes waiting for it).
Vision
The vision is overall very good, and does not need tweaking / calibration for different light conditions - it "just works" out of the box.
Feeders
Having feeders makes a huge difference, compared to working with strips. It seems like the feeders might not always get the component to exactly the same position for pickup, requiring a re-alignment, but this might be something to do with us (further investigation necessary). We do waste some components due to mis-pick, but I think that is standard in the industry (especially at this price level). The feeders are not particularly difficult to load. In terms of trays; there is space for 1 JEDEC tray, but we just chop our trays up if we need to fit more than one in - we actually have a few strips (e.g. 48mm) in the tray area as well (for e.g. wide FPC connectors).
Accuracy
As mentioned above, considering belt-drive / open-loop / not-$$$-servos, the accuracy seems very good for the price point of the machine.
Overall Build
Overall build-quality is good / sturdy, and the machine is nice and compact. It can go on a benchtop, or on the Neoden stand (we currently have ours on the stand). Having all the pumps etc built-in is nice - just hook up a screen / keyboard / mouse and it's good to go.

Neoden have targeted a specific market with this machine, and for us the machine is a good fit - we do not currently have the volumes or $$$ to justify a machine from Essemtec/Samsung/Europlacer/Mycronic/etc/etc, so it is just what we needed.

Cheers
Dane
« Last Edit: August 23, 2018, 08:31:14 am by daneduplooy »
 

Offline luiHS

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Re: Neoden 4 pick and place
« Reply #1366 on: September 24, 2018, 12:39:09 am »
.

Hi.

Does anyone know if I can put electrolytic capacitors on a reel? The ones I try to use have a height of 5 and 6mm.

As you can see the photos, in the feeders of this width, there is like a metal sheet that presses against the component, and in this case that sheet does not leave enough space to put the tape with this capacitor. In addition where the tape would leave once the component was removed, there is very little space left for it to come out.

May I have to remove those metal sheets, to leave enough space for the capacitors? If so, I do not know how to remove them.

On the other hand, I am also having another general problem with reel feeders, this is seen in the last photo. The tapes that come out after peeling tend to move and leave the groove that acts as a guide. I suspect that I may have feeders somewhat displaced with respect to the mechanisms that pull the tape to remove it, but I am not sure if that is the problem.

.

« Last Edit: September 24, 2018, 12:42:27 am by luiHS »
 

Offline pakakezu

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Re: Neoden 4 pick and place
« Reply #1367 on: September 24, 2018, 10:57:54 am »
First off a disclaimer, this advice is based only on experience and not reflects manufactures recommendation.

I found that the springs in the 12mm feeders are too strong and cause more harm than good, however i used SMC diodes and not electrolytes. To remove the spring you have to take out the feeder from the machine to access the screws holding it in place. Simply remove and keep them if a slim component needs the lower support.

As of the 8mm feeders i would recommend to route the foil all the way to the front, not trough the hole.


 
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Offline luiHS

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Re: Neoden 4 pick and place
« Reply #1368 on: September 24, 2018, 01:02:03 pm »
ok, thanks pakakezu for your suggestions.
I will try to remove the metal sheet and change the foil of the tape.

I also sent a message via Skype to Neoden, and they answered that they were on holidays, and that tomorrow they will answer me the technical service.

I hope to be able to use electrolytic capacitors on a reel with the 12mm feeders, I do not see any reason for not being able to use them. The alternative would be to put them on a tray, but I expected at least the smaller ones like these 5 and 6mm if they could be used on a reel. On other 12mm reels, I have diodes and LD1117 chips and they enter without problems, although I am still in tests with the machine, calibrating and configuring everything.

One more question, if someone knows. I have imported the list of components with their coordinates, using a ULP that there is for Eagle.

I have already configured a few things, but it is not clear to me how to define the fiducials and in the definition to use the motorized lanes of non-panelized plates, it seems that it asks for the coordinates of the first component. I do not understand what the first component refers to and how to assign it from the configuration options, nor how to define the coordinates of the fiducials.

In the list of components that I have imported, fiducials appear with their relative coordinates on the board, now I do not know if I have to put those coordinates, if I have to locate them with the video camera of the machine, or if I have to modify the coordinates in relation to the first component.
« Last Edit: September 24, 2018, 01:03:34 pm by luiHS »
 

Offline luiHS

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Re: Neoden 4 pick and place
« Reply #1369 on: September 24, 2018, 01:16:10 pm »
I found that the springs in the 12mm feeders are too strong and cause more harm than good, however i used SMC diodes and not electrolytes. To remove the spring you have to take out the feeder from the machine to access the screws holding it in place. Simply remove and keep them if a slim component needs the lower support.


I am not sure now if it refers to removing the spring I see in your image, or removing the sheet metal that see in my image, or both.

I do not know if really the spring of his image is a problem, but surely the metal sheet of my image does not allow to correctly place the electrolytic capacitors in a reel with the 12 mm feeder. Or I might have to eliminate both.


Offline luiHS

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Re: Neoden 4 pick and place
« Reply #1370 on: September 24, 2018, 01:25:15 pm »


I have checked your image again, could it be that you refer to removing the two screws to be able to remove the metal sheet to which I have referred, not to the spring of your image?

Offline pakakezu

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Re: Neoden 4 pick and place
« Reply #1371 on: September 24, 2018, 02:36:20 pm »
By spring i meant the metal sheet, the other spring is essential to hold the tape.

As for the fiducials.  The coordinates for the fiducials can be obtained from the component list, you have to set them to do not mount or skip. Best is to move the fiducials to the top of the list.
The "first component" on the panel setting refers to the location of the first component from the component list on the PCB, can be a fiducial too. You have to align with the camera on the pcb, from there the software will calculate the component offsets. Also if the board is panalized calculates the board locations.

For fiducial locations (bottom left corner of screen) enter manually the coordinates from the component list of the fiducials, keep in mind depending on the layer you may need to mirror the import.
If proper fiducials are missing from the board you can use trough holes, but you have to add them to the component list.

I attach an example because it is a bit convoluted.
 
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Offline luiHS

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Re: Neoden 4 pick and place
« Reply #1372 on: September 24, 2018, 02:52:09 pm »
As for the fiducials.  The coordinates for the fiducials can be obtained from the component list, you have to set them to do not mount or skip. Best is to move the fiducials to the top of the list.
The "first component" on the panel setting refers to the location of the first component from the component list on the PCB, can be a fiducial too. You have to align with the camera on the pcb, from there the software will calculate the component offsets. Also if the board is panalized calculates the board locations.

For fiducial locations (bottom left corner of screen) enter manually the coordinates from the component list of the fiducials, keep in mind depending on the layer you may need to mirror the import.
If proper fiducials are missing from the board you can use trough holes, but you have to add them to the component list.

I attach an example because it is a bit convoluted.


Ok, thank you very much, now I understand perfectly.

The only problem is locating the first component with the camera, some of my current boards are large PCBs, 380 x 130 mm. Then try to physically locate the first component by moving the camera will not be easy, because the area that views the camera is very small, the software should have a focus with less zoom to have a view of a larger area, then go to the component and apply higher zoom to go to detail.

There are several levels of zoom, but even the smallest, it is too wide and in a very small area of the board. I will try to locate it by looking at the board, and where is the head and I will move it with the option that allows a location without camera, but with rapid movements.


Offline luiHS

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Re: Neoden 4 pick and place
« Reply #1373 on: September 24, 2018, 03:29:38 pm »
One more question, please.

My Neoden4 has motorized rails, I understand that I have to place the PCB on the entrance to the rails and press the buttons backward and forward to place the PCB in the center of the work area of the machine approximately, although this is not indicated (I suppose).

What I do not understand is what the alignment task consists of, by pressing the Align button. The camera comes out with the image of the board, and there I do not know what to do, with which I have to align on the board. It seems that with the edge of the board, but I do not have it clear, and if so, with what edge, left, right, up, down?

Offline pakakezu

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Re: Neoden 4 pick and place
« Reply #1374 on: September 25, 2018, 06:28:43 am »
To find the first component you can select the Overall workbench option first, than where you click on the screen the camera will move to the approximate location on the work-space. It is much faster to get to anything. Than switch back to visual alignment.

Setting up the rails is fairly simple. Pressing forward and backward you have to adjust the rails for the PCB to run smooth but not too loose. You may check if the right rail was installed parallel to the Y axes,
you can use the down facing camera to find the rail edge and take note of the displayed coordinates. One time task and worth checking.

Detect location is the global coordinate where the camera will wait to see the edge of the PCB,  If the board is too large you will have to move back a bit, otherwise on the front the edge of the board will be outside the work area. For smaller boards the closer is the pcb to the camera the better the placement speed.

Pressing feed fill feed the board until the pcb edge is detected. With align you have to select the board Edge (ScreenHunter_035.jpg  Rigth), but i have no idea what purpose has.
The feed dose not need to be to precise, the proper alignment is done by the fidutials, but helps if the board is not rotated by a lot.
 
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