Author Topic: Neoden 4 pick and place  (Read 358036 times)

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Offline luiHS

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Re: Neoden 4 pick and place
« Reply #1375 on: September 25, 2018, 09:55:58 am »
.

OK, thak you ver much.
From Neoden also confirm that I must remove the metal piece in the 12mm feeder to put the electrolityc capacitors.

And the tape peel, I had it wrong, so it tended to get out of his place.

About the fiducials coordinates, I understand I must enter manually with values from the imported component list, and align with camera the first component of the list. Then the accurary is mainly dependent of the fiducials, not of the manually align of first component ?



Offline Karolijn

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Re: Neoden 4 pick and place
« Reply #1376 on: October 16, 2018, 09:15:58 am »
edit: Oh sh.... I pressed the wrong button. English is not my mother language and I read allocate as assign.  :palm:



Hi completely new on this forum, but i'm following this thread already for quite some time.

At work I have a Neoden 4 and with the help of this forum I could use it quite well, but still learning all the quirks.
Now I have a new problem I never encountered ever before and haven't read about yet.
I just opened a project from a few weeks ago and changed some speed settings.
After pressing "Allocate chip to feeders", no pop-up came up (I thought to remember the machine will give a "succesfull" of something). When switching to the "PCB information" tab and back all my feeder settings were sort of reseted and all placed one after another starting from 1, even my special feeder was moved to a normal one.
I replaced the file on the Neoden with my backup, but the problem still persist.
This isn't a immediate problem, since I don't have to change anything and can always do everything on the computer, but it could be a problem in the future. Has somebody had the same problem before?

Thanks in advance!
« Last Edit: October 16, 2018, 09:53:08 am by Karolijn »
 

Offline luiHS

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Re: Neoden 4 pick and place
« Reply #1377 on: November 27, 2018, 04:12:49 am »
 

Hi.

I have problems when I run the Mount process on the Neoden4. Attached screenshot of errors showing the program, something about the coordinates of the components (out of boundary).

I have done all these steps to configure everything:

1.- I generate the list of components to import in Eagle with the ULP of rayshobby. I write 0,0 for the XY coordinates of the first component that the ULP requests. This may be the problem, but I do not know what the first component is and what coordinates to enter.

2.- Import in the Neoden4, the CSV list of components generated in the previous step.

3.- Configure all the feeders.

4.- Align the top edge of the board, with the camera of the machine.

5.- Align the first component of the list with the camera.

6.- I write the coordinates of the two fiducials, which are in the imported list.

7.- Run the option Mount. Then the software of the machine shows two errors, the first related to the incorrect coordinates (out of boundary), and the second related to the location of the Marks (I suppose the fiducials). I understand that the second error, simply derives from the first, which is the real error.


I suspect that the problem is the XY that the ULP requests for the first component, to generate the coordinates of all the components of the list, but I do not know what the first component is and how to obtain its coordinates.

In any case, I think it is very strange that the machine can not correctly calculate the real coordinates of all the components, with the imported list and the real coordinates of the first component that I align in the machine using the camera.

Can someone help me with this problem?


PS: I asked Neoden Support, but it really seems that they do not know how to properly import from Eagle to Neoden. Now they are testing, it is strange that they can not provide all the details to work with Neoden4 and Eagle. In the instructions they only give instructions to import from Altium, nothing for Eagle, they refer me to the website where is the ULP created by rayshobby, but that is the same one that I used from the beginning to import the list of components.




« Last Edit: November 27, 2018, 04:15:56 am by luiHS »
 

Offline tboicey

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Re: Neoden 4 pick and place
« Reply #1378 on: November 27, 2018, 04:31:12 am »
(I'm away from my machine for a week so this is from memory, but I have a 3V and use the Rayshobby script. The software is nearly the same.)

You are correct that 0,0 is not the correct coordinates for the first component. If the first component in your parts list on the Neoden is say, R1, then enter it's coordinates which will be beside it if imported properly from Rayshobby script. If needed, it should be the same as the XY of that part in Eagle or whatever. It uses that to offset the rest of the parts.

Then you need to set the fiducials right, which is straightforward.

In my case, the fiducials are imported properly as "parts" from the rayshobby script, but they default to "skip". That's great. Scribble their X, Y locations on a piece of paper so you know then when you switch screens. They will also match the X Y locations in your Eagle or whatever.

On the PCB page in UI where you set up panels and so on, there will be a section near the bottom for alignment marks, enter two fiducials with their XY coordinates that you scribbled down. Set them to AUTO ALIGN. Then click "ALIGN" and use the UI to move the camera to wherever the fiducial is when the PCB is mounted. Do that for both fiducials. That tells the Neoden where the fiducial is on it's work surface is, and the XY coordinates of the fid are then used to know all the other part locations on the work surface.

Then when you MOUNT, since you selected auto align, it should zoom to the first FID, take 2-3 pictures to center it, then zoom to the second FID, center it, then get to work. Obviously you probably want to use STEP mounting for the first attempt but that's the just of it.
 

Offline luiHS

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Re: Neoden 4 pick and place
« Reply #1379 on: November 27, 2018, 05:52:21 am »
You are correct that 0,0 is not the correct coordinates for the first component. If the first component in your parts list on the Neoden is say, R1, then enter it's coordinates which will be beside it if imported properly from Rayshobby script. If needed, it should be the same as the XY of that part in Eagle or whatever. It uses that to offset the rest of the parts.



What is the first component and what are its XY coordinates?.

The coordinates in the import list, are not real coordinates, but relative coordinates. I configure and align with camera the first component and save it, but coordinates of this component are not same that coordinates in imported list. I understand that as soon as the first component is aligned, the software calculate automatically the real coordinates for all the components, also the real coordinates of the fiducials.


Quote
On the PCB page in UI where you set up panels and so on, there will be a section near the bottom for alignment marks, enter two fiducials with their XY coordinates that you scribbled down. Set them to AUTO ALIGN. Then click "ALIGN" and use the UI to move the camera to wherever the fiducial is when the PCB is mounted. Do that for both fiducials. That tells the Neoden where the fiducial is on it's work surface is, and the XY coordinates of the fid are then used to know all the other part locations on the work surface.

Instructions from Neoden support were, simply write the fiducials coordinates in the Mark List, those that were imported in the component list (are relative coordinates not real coordinates).  I do not understand why I need align manually if I have already input the fiducials coordinates, then its not useful type anything, simply align manually with camera.

The correct one, if the Neoden software is correctly developed, is to import the list of components with RELATIVE coordinates of each component. In the Neoden software, import the list of components, align the top edge of the PCB with the camera, align the FIRST component of the imported list with the camera to get the REAL coordinates. Then I guess the software can calculate the REAL coordinates of the other components. But obviously this does not happen.

I suspect that all the coordinates in the imported list must be REAL, not RELATIVE coordinates, so when I run the ULP and it requests the XY of the first component, I must write the REAL coordinates of the first component, so I will need to get it from the Neoden software with the option to manually align. Then, if in the ULP I enter the real coordinates of the first component, the ULP will calculate the REAL coordinates for all the components in the import list, also for the fiducials. If this is so, then I do not understand why the Neoden program requires manually aligning the first component, if all the coordinates are already in the imported list. It's a pretty bad software, and I've already found a couple of bugs. Also officially Neoden does not give instructions to import from Eagle, only from Altium.





« Last Edit: November 27, 2018, 06:22:50 am by luiHS »
 

Offline tboicey

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Re: Neoden 4 pick and place
« Reply #1380 on: November 27, 2018, 07:48:12 am »
The first component is whatever comes out first in Rays script, for me it's usually R1 or C1. So in Eagle i find R1 or C1 click info, and that's the first component coordinate. You can run the script twice if you need to run it once just to see which component comes out first.

Anyways, i don't know what to tell you, follow the steps and it all works fine. Every coordinate in the neoden UI is board coordinate which should match Eagle for the same component.

The two fiducials just tell the machine where the PCB is on the bed and everything is computed from there. It also computes panels this way for all boards in a panel.

The magic Align lines in the Neoden UI just basically say "this fiducial is exactly XY on the PCB, and your camera will find it near X2Y2 on your work surface. Once you find the FId on the board, that's XY and place the rest of the components with that in mind".

As an aside, i recommend always using a fiducial not a board edge. From my experience the accuracy of board edge milling isn't nearly to the same level as the rest of the process.

 

Offline luiHS

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Re: Neoden 4 pick and place
« Reply #1381 on: November 27, 2018, 08:33:05 am »
The first component is whatever comes out first in Rays script, for me it's usually R1 or C1. So in Eagle i find R1 or C1 click info, and that's the first component coordinate. You can run the script twice if you need to run it once just to see which component comes out first.

Yes, I did it to know which is the first component in the ULP. The issue was to know what coordinates to type in the XY values that the ULP requests for the first component.

I suspect, but I must to test it yet, and now from Neoden support they suggest same, that the XY coordinates of the first component, must to be the REAL coordinates of that component in Neoden, whe align the board and then align the first component with the camera.

Its a very strange way to do, because then align the first component is not useful for the software, do not apply any Offset to the rest of component coordinates to get the real coordinates.

If I put i the ULP the real coordinates XY of the first component, then the ULP will calculate the real coordinates of all components, included the fiducials. So that's why it has no sense, type by hand in Neoden the coordinates of the fiducials and align manually the first component, the software do not use it to calculate the real coordinates of the rest of components (apply some Offset)


Quote
Anyways, i don't know what to tell you, follow the steps and it all works fine. Every coordinate in the neoden UI is board coordinate which should match Eagle for the same component.

I see, I think I'm beginning to understand how to import the works, just import all the components with real coordinates. The ULP simply request for real coordinates of the first component, and apply offset to calculate the rest of components.


Quote
As an aside, i recommend always using a fiducial not a board edge. From my experience the accuracy of board edge milling isn't nearly to the same level as the rest of the process.

I place two fiducials on all my boards, for the highest accuracy.
« Last Edit: November 27, 2018, 09:51:37 am by luiHS »
 

Offline mikeselectricstuff

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Re: Neoden 4 pick and place
« Reply #1382 on: November 27, 2018, 08:35:04 am »
The best way would be if the N4 software would recognise "fid" components in your p&p data, and automatically derive all offsets, so you only need to tell it where the PCB is on the bed.
But we're talking Chinese software so can't expect them to have thought about useability.
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Offline Kjelt

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Re: Neoden 4 pick and place
« Reply #1383 on: November 27, 2018, 09:27:47 am »
Normal machine behaviour in this case would be:
1) home the machine 0,0,0 coordinates (machine coodinates)
2) go to pcb read fiducials to deduce : pcb 0,0,0 coordinates (workpiece coordinates) and rotation.

3) The components should be defined in offset in relation to the workpiece coordinates, software should compensate for the rotation.
 

Offline tboicey

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Re: Neoden 4 pick and place
« Reply #1384 on: November 28, 2018, 05:18:37 am »
With all love to "ray" or whoever wrote the script on Rayshobby, I'm not exactly sure why the ULP asks for that information. I'm sure it's a use case I've just never ran into.

For my work I've always just put the same information in that the ULP could have read itself, the XY of the first component.

My 3V has the fixed bed not the conveyor, so I can put the board anywhere to optimize for shortest head movement. (generally upper left unless I'm feeding from vibration feeder or trays)

However if I run the same mount script that I haven't ran in a while, I have to fix the align points based on wherever I randomly place the board magnets that day.
 

Offline pakakezu

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Re: Neoden 4 pick and place
« Reply #1385 on: November 28, 2018, 06:21:25 am »
Regarding manually entering coordinates into the Neoden software.
If you mirror the layer during the import you can no longer enter the coordinates manually because during the mirroring everything was flipped.

Anyway your first component should be a fidutial, and because you manually show the machine where it is, should always recognize. The second one if not found is a mirroring problem.

In my version of the neoden after the fidutials are recognized in the mount screen, you can use the vision align if i remember correctly to see with the camera where a component would be placed.
 

Offline mikeselectricstuff

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Re: Neoden 4 pick and place
« Reply #1386 on: November 28, 2018, 08:20:40 am »
Has anyone documented the N4's native file format, to allow creation of its files directly?
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Offline SMTech

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Re: Neoden 4 pick and place
« Reply #1387 on: November 28, 2018, 09:20:04 am »
I think it is at least being looked at for PCBSynergy.
Not sure how it works on the Neoden, but I get the impression it can require more data than most CAD packages have to output native format files directly for many machines depending on what they build into them. So for the two machines I have actually worked on (Versatronics & Essemtec) and know well the "native" format I might attempt to create is basically the same as the data you would expect a cad package to export just formatted differently. In both cases the machines software handled the next steps such as feeder allocation at run time,others need telling everything ,you could probably automate that too but that would only be a useful thing to do if it was a good match for how you work. Other bits of data like pick heights, package sizes, nozzles to use etc are stored separately from the individual board file.
In my experience CAD data usually exports a "package" but that is almost always really a footprint (not really the same thing) so you do need to be careful if you use this column in a script.
 

Offline charliex

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Re: Neoden 4 pick and place
« Reply #1388 on: November 29, 2018, 03:03:44 am »
yeah i did, i modded the dp-tm220 ulp for eagle to generate them, i 'm almost done , got busy with work, hoping to make it work this weekend.

« Last Edit: November 29, 2018, 03:06:54 am by charliex »
 

Offline charliex

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Re: Neoden 4 pick and place
« Reply #1389 on: November 29, 2018, 03:14:58 am »
With all love to "ray" or whoever wrote the script on Rayshobby, I'm not exactly sure why the ULP asks for that information. I'm sure it's a use case I've just never ran into.

the way he does is it to basically map the eagle coordinates to fixed physical coordinates on the board, versus relative. so you figure out where the first component would exist on the machine then punch that  in, and it offsets them all

oddly i saw mikes comment on youtube earlier today, but you can use the fiducials to set the positions of the board, you just add them to the fiducial list , move the camera to the first fiducial location on the machine with pcb loaded, hit cancel, then use the "change to current position" to relocate the board, it does this when its in rail mode anyway since when it autoloads the board is slightly off.

« Last Edit: November 29, 2018, 03:33:06 am by charliex »
 

Offline luiHS

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Re: Neoden 4 pick and place
« Reply #1390 on: December 03, 2018, 08:18:21 am »
Hi.

Somebody know how can I remove this part of 2mm of this CN750 customized nozzle ??, what tool can I use to cut this 2mm part of the nozzle.

This was made for me, to can pick high electrolityc capacitors and big inductors. Work fine with big inductors, but yet its not enough short to can install 10mm height capacitors.

So, I want try to remove the 2mm part of the nozzle, then will be perfect to pick and place high electrolityc capacitors, 2000uF 6.3v in my boards.

« Last Edit: December 03, 2018, 08:26:02 am by luiHS »
 

Offline tboicey

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Re: Neoden 4 pick and place
« Reply #1391 on: December 03, 2018, 09:16:58 pm »
I doubt the cutting has to be military-precise, a little vacuum leaking is acceptable and inevitable.

Of note though, AFAIK the software does not support nozzle routing while carrying taller devices. I have cheated here as well and done larger capacitors, but it takes a bit of experimentation and luck.

In basic terms, the nozzle that carries your tall capacitor might smash right across the board and knock over a few other tall components while enroute to being photographed or placed.

I have gotten it working in some cases by choosing the order of placement carefully and a bit of trial and error. My boards usually finish with a few tall caps fed from a tray.

 
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Offline luiHS

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Re: Neoden 4 pick and place
« Reply #1392 on: December 04, 2018, 03:13:37 pm »
I doubt the cutting has to be military-precise, a little vacuum leaking is acceptable and inevitable.

Of note though, AFAIK the software does not support nozzle routing while carrying taller devices. I have cheated here as well and done larger capacitors, but it takes a bit of experimentation and luck.

In basic terms, the nozzle that carries your tall capacitor might smash right across the board and knock over a few other tall components while enroute to being photographed or placed.

I have gotten it working in some cases by choosing the order of placement carefully and a bit of trial and error. My boards usually finish with a few tall caps fed from a tray.


Finally, in Neoden they are going to make the shorter nozzles, they tell me they can reduce it by 2mm more.

I also thought about the collision between components when moving them for positioning, and it also occurred to me to configure the order of placement to avoid that problem, leaving the highest components at the end of the list.


Offline luiHS

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Re: Neoden 4 pick and place
« Reply #1393 on: December 04, 2018, 03:34:02 pm »
 
I added lighting with LED strips to my Neoden4. As soon as I received the machine, I realized how dark the work area is, it is not at all comfortable to work in maintenance tasks, adding and configuring feeders or components in the trays.

That's why I added in the interior of my Neoden4, adhesive Led strips of white color, in total for now I have put 4 double strips, and I can add two more. The lighting is not permanent, I have connected a small adhesive switch on one side of the machine to turn on and off this interior lighting.

Now, I find it much more comfortable to work with the machine.

 
« Last Edit: December 04, 2018, 03:39:33 pm by luiHS »
 

Offline luiHS

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Re: Neoden 4 pick and place
« Reply #1394 on: December 04, 2018, 08:11:48 pm »

Hi.
Does anyone know how to solve this problem?



Offline jmelson

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Re: Neoden 4 pick and place
« Reply #1395 on: December 04, 2018, 08:58:31 pm »
Well, first, the cover tape is not threaded through the slot to the left of the component opening.  The feeder below it is properly threaded.

As for the pulling of the tape, I think that is a problem all P&P users have seen.  The pull strength of the cover tape glue varies, sometimes cyclically every foot or so of tape, causing some parts of the tape to be nearly ready to just fall off, and other parts a foot down the tape to be so strong that the feeders can't pull it off.

One of the tricks I have used is to clamp a small C-clamp onto the component tape or the cover tape to increase the pull.  My Yamaha feeders have toothed wheels that mesh like gears, and there is a spring that causes the wheels to "bite".  Sometimes, I have to "choke up" on the spring to get the wheels to grip the tape more strongly.

Jon
 

Offline tboicey

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Re: Neoden 4 pick and place
« Reply #1396 on: December 04, 2018, 09:04:47 pm »
Random update that I'll be running my 3V tomorrow to do 40 boards or so. If anybody has specific questions on setup I'll try to take the right pictures as I go.
 

Offline 48X24X48X

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Re: Neoden 4 pick and place
« Reply #1397 on: December 05, 2018, 04:13:26 pm »

Hi.
Does anyone know how to solve this problem?




Is there a way for the peeling mechanism to be tighten? I think their older drag feeder machine allows you to tighten it so it pulls harder.
 

Offline charliex

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Re: Neoden 4 pick and place
« Reply #1398 on: December 05, 2018, 05:09:44 pm »
i just usually add weight too, there is no adjustment that i know of. the old one did you let you tighten it a bit but this one works in a different way.


 

Offline luiHS

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Re: Neoden 4 pick and place
« Reply #1399 on: December 06, 2018, 09:22:34 pm »
 
I have trouble placing a micro SD card socket. This does not have a perfectly rectangular shape, but an irregular shape, as you can see in the attached image. I do not know if this is the problem, and how it could be solved. Just in case, I have asked TME several models of micro SD sockets, these with rectangular shapes, if they work, I will have to modify the design of the PCB to use another micro SD socket.

I also see many limitations to the height of the components in the reel feeders. For example, I have an electrolytic capacitor of 5.4 mm in height, no problem, it fits perfectly. But I have another height of 6.2 mm, and this is not placed well, the feeder is stuck when the tape comes out through the hole that ejects it, once the nozzle has captured the component. This limits the maximum height of the reel component to approximately 5.5 mm, and can not be resolved with customized short nozzles, because the problem is the poor design of the feeder that does not allow ejection of the tape by limiting the feeder gap for the output of the tape.

And one more problem, I modified the order of some components, one of them manually modified the positioning coordinates, in addition to this component was not positioned well (is the micro SD card socket), affected the positioning of the next component that I have not modified their coordinates.

« Last Edit: December 06, 2018, 10:03:47 pm by luiHS »
 


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