Author Topic: Neoden 4 pick and place  (Read 323663 times)

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Offline vonnieda

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Re: Neoden 4 pick and place
« Reply #1450 on: February 04, 2019, 05:23:36 pm »
i've been writing up my neoden4 stuff, haven't finished yet but looks like I am going out of town unexpectedly so figured i'd post what i had so far and finish up when i get back

https://charliex2.wordpress.com/2019/01/31/neoden-4-pick-and-place/

Great work! I've slowly been working on an OpenPnP driver for the NeoDen 4 and this answers a lot of open questions. Thank you for taking the time to write it all up!

Jason
 

Offline TheSteve

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Re: Neoden 4 pick and place
« Reply #1451 on: February 04, 2019, 05:43:28 pm »
i've been writing up my neoden4 stuff, haven't finished yet but looks like I am going out of town unexpectedly so figured i'd post what i had so far and finish up when i get back

https://charliex2.wordpress.com/2019/01/31/neoden-4-pick-and-place/

Excellent stuff. I see you mentioned some units using an older camera - I believe the machine I use has older cams and as far as I know the current firmware no longer supports our machine.
VE7FM
 

Offline charliex

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Re: Neoden 4 pick and place
« Reply #1452 on: February 04, 2019, 10:31:55 pm »
Jason, no problem, i'll finish up the camera driver and you guys can adapt it to libusb if you don't get to it before i do.

Steve ,the current software does still load the CGUSB2.dll i noticed, but doesn't seem to use it since i removed it  as it was causing a shutdown crash in the software for me.

I betcha you could generate a wrapper with NeodenCamera.dll to use the older cameras. those CGUSB2 type cameras are pretty common and i believe they are cypress fx2 driven.


« Last Edit: February 06, 2019, 10:15:53 pm by charliex »
 

Offline tony-tid

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Re: Neoden 4 pick and place
« Reply #1453 on: February 07, 2019, 12:14:39 pm »
Thank you for fast response! :-+

Why do not you place the two fiducials with standard 1mm copper round marks on your PCB? Using a THT component hole is not as accurate as using a 1mm round copper fiducial.

In your list of components, the first component is also one of the fiducials, this may not work correctly. Move, at the beginning of the list of components, a real component, for example a resistor, then align the first component again.

It is important that the two fiducials are in the design of the PCB (in your Altium project), so that their coordinates are imported correctly, with respect to the rest of the components of the board. Add them later in the Neoden software, will not recalculate the actual location of the other components.

All the coordinates, in the list of components, and the fiducials, must be real coordinates. I do not know how you import your list of components, I work with Eagle and with a ULP that calculates the real coordinates of all the components and fiducials when I input the real coordinates of the first component of the list.


Before NeoDen4, I solder the components by hand, thats why the pcb design is doesnt have fid points.
The two TH wich I use for fiducials are in the design of the PCB. They are used for mounting the pcb in case, and I get their cordinates from the project.
Adding the list of components is via " File Import " button in NeoNen4 software, and the exctraction of the cordinates is from Altium. I can generate CSV file with the cordinates for the components, but dont think there are cordinates for these points.



there are a couple of things to be aware with the way the software works

1. design tool coordinate space
2. machine coordinate space

when you create the components list in the tool the XY position is relative to whatever the coordinate system is , usually lower/left 0,0 but you can put your board anywhere.
when you import into the neoden software the same XY coordinates, it is still relative to the design tools space. So it needs to be translated to the physical coordinates of the machine

the eagle script luiHS mentioned does this by taking the first component in the list and calling that the origin, then it adds on a fixed XY translation that it adds to all the components.

This translation is the difference between the origin on the design tool software, and the origin of the machine.

In the image the green rectangle is the altium work area, the green fid is where it is relative to the altium coordinate space, the blue rectangle is the physical neoden machine, and the red rectangle is the PCB you wish to place on, the red fid would be where the fidicual would be found by the camera

depending on how you generate your coordinates from alitum, and if they are translated or not depends on how you add those ghost fids, if they are in altium coordinate space, you have to add them in altium space.

so where they would be relative to the green rectangle

if you translated the coordinates as luiHS script does. Then you have to add them in the red rectangle space, where the lower left of the rectangle is 0,0 or whatever the origin was in altium

once you've added the coordinates in the right space. make sure they are all listed in the panel, and fiduciary lists in the same coordinate system, either all relative to the green box, or all relative to the red one. Then you can select the location of the first fid listed on the list , move the machines camera to the physical location of that fid press cancel and use the move everything yours says (to current po) button which is the lowest button on the right of that group. The machine should then translate everything to the right place.

That is the procedure the machine uses with the rails or when its in automatic mode, so when you do a test load with the rails use the "to current po" to test it all works before feeding it, then when you feed it should work the same.

if you create the ghost fid's relative to the red box and the rest of the components are relative to the green box or vice versa, the head will go to the totally wrong place and should be offset by the difference of the orange line.

also you should definitely update the software.


I will try as you describe and will write.
Than you for the response and information. :-+
 

Offline Gunnar

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Re: Neoden 4 pick and place
« Reply #1454 on: February 12, 2019, 09:38:27 am »
Hello Toni,
I have the same problem as the did cad data did not fit the machine. I have tried many things, but I have come to no useful success. I also tried it with the software from charliex (the software looks very good) and that did not help either. have written to joyce of neoden a week ago, but have not received a response yet.
My current firmware is: V4.1.4 B2 >:( |O
I would also like to use the firmware of charliex, but my soft and hardware skills are so bad that I do not trust me there. I follow the topic but excited.
Greetings Gunnar
 

Offline mikeselectricstuff

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Re: Neoden 4 pick and place
« Reply #1455 on: February 12, 2019, 10:04:27 am »
have written to joyce of neoden a week ago, but have not received a response yet.
It's Chinese New Year - China is closed for a while.
Youtube channel:Taking wierd stuff apart. Very apart.
Mike's Electric Stuff: High voltage, vintage electronics etc.
Day Job: Mostly LEDs
 
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Offline charliex

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Re: Neoden 4 pick and place
« Reply #1456 on: February 13, 2019, 05:57:28 am »
try support@neoden.com instead, they replied to me during the holidays.
 

Offline vegastar

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Re: Neoden 4 pick and place
« Reply #1457 on: February 18, 2019, 12:54:59 pm »


Yesterday I tried some new custom nozzles that I ordered, very short, to put 10mm high capacitors, and it has worked very well for me. It requires a bit of study, design the PCB properly and order the positioning of the components, all to avoid collisions between high components, even other nozzles with high components already positioned on the PCB, because the Z axis only moves 10mm.


I tried to get some custom nozzles to mount higher components but our supplier said there are none. Can you please provide a picture of your custom nozzle and the dimensions?

We are using the Neoden 4 for some weeks and are quite happy with the result, considering the price of the machine. But the biggest handicap is the 5mm limit on component height. If we can go up to 7mm almost all of our problems would be solved.
 

Offline luiHS

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Re: Neoden 4 pick and place
« Reply #1458 on: February 19, 2019, 10:58:40 pm »
Yesterday I tried some new custom nozzles that I ordered, very short, to put 10mm high capacitors, and it has worked very well for me. It requires a bit of study, design the PCB properly and order the positioning of the components, all to avoid collisions between high components, even other nozzles with high components already positioned on the PCB, because the Z axis only moves 10mm.


I tried to get some custom nozzles to mount higher components but our supplier said there are none. Can you please provide a picture of your custom nozzle and the dimensions?

We are using the Neoden 4 for some weeks and are quite happy with the result, considering the price of the machine. But the biggest handicap is the 5mm limit on component height. If we can go up to 7mm almost all of our problems would be solved.


The customized nozzles, they were made to me in Neoden directly, they have also made customized trays for me. These nozzles are shorter versions of the CN750, with these I can put 10mm high electrolytic capacitors and power inductors.

What also needs to be considered is the design of the location of the components in the PCB, so that the higher ones do not collide with each other when the Neoden places them.

With the shorter nozzle, since it has less suction surface, it is necessary to configure the positioning speed so that it is slow, or the component falls out of the nozzle, I set them to the minimum, to 10.

Attached picture, with the Standard CN750 nozzle, and the customized short and shorter nozzles.


« Last Edit: February 20, 2019, 02:51:19 am by luiHS »
 

Offline luiHS

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Re: Neoden 4 pick and place
« Reply #1459 on: March 22, 2019, 10:13:46 pm »

A technical question:
The camera that is on the right side of the machine has a board with 24 LEDs, 6 per side in square shape. I have noticed that when the head goes to the camera with the component, of these 24 LEDs only 8 LEDs light up, 2 on each side. Is this correct, that only 8 of the 24 LEDs light up?

« Last Edit: March 22, 2019, 10:24:18 pm by luiHS »
 

Offline pakakezu

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Re: Neoden 4 pick and place
« Reply #1460 on: March 23, 2019, 07:36:57 am »
The number of LEDs can be changed with the dipswitch on the led panel. When all the LEDs lit up may be too bright in some cases. Only for a BGA bluetooth module I needed them all on because the edges were not recognized  clearly.

But in manual this info is missing...
 
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Offline MaxH

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Re: Neoden 4 pick and place
« Reply #1461 on: March 26, 2019, 11:38:57 am »
Hi,
I've been following this thread a while because we are planning to buy a neoden4 with conveyor belt. whats still unclear apart from the questionable software is how exactly would we change the Feeders during operation? For example if a pcb needs more components than available feeder slots. Is it somehow practically possible to change the feeders for a "second run" with a different set? Since it doesnt have a changeable feeder tray/cart? If you dont want to buy a second machine on the line immediately.

Thanks!
 

Offline pakakezu

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Re: Neoden 4 pick and place
« Reply #1462 on: March 26, 2019, 12:02:50 pm »
I don't see how would be practical to change out the setup during assembly. Mostly because the paste has a dry out time.
Simplest is to swap out tray-s and run a different program or make a custom tray, and fit everything there.

Its more practical to leave out the oddball components and place them manually. No confusion and continuous production also lowers the risk for the operator to swipe off the parts between runs,
mess up the component change.
 

Offline SMTech

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Re: Neoden 4 pick and place
« Reply #1463 on: March 26, 2019, 12:08:21 pm »
OK I don't have one.. but I have watched the videos and I do run a decent machine. The short answer is no, it not practical, its not really all that practical on a good machine but on the Neoden its really not practical because of the way the feeders attach and are configured. In fact even a different feeder configuration for different jobs looks like a total chore.
Instead you should be looking at one of the machines on this list https://www.eevblog.com/forum/manufacture/pick-place-with-conveyor-0201-cl-feeders/  where the feeders are at least easily swappable, frankly the software also looks slightly less insane and least on the YX ones. Then what you would do is run the job with the machine fully loaded with small(short) stuff, rack it up before it gets to reflow, reload the machine with the parts for the second pass, reset all the pick heights for the new parts (plus whatever otyher silly processes chinese software engineers decided to make you do at this step), place those and then reflow.

On my Essemtec or say a Mycronic machine you could have more feeders than you have slots on the machine to load them onto, and swap feeders in and out on a per PCB/Panel basis. This is possible because they use intelligent feeders, the location pick height and other parameters are stored against the feeder ID & component package as appropriate, NOT against a slot number.

As soon as you get into 2 Chinese machines tho' you are dangerously close to 2nd user/refurb build like a tank machines from conventional makers, while some of those are also limited on feeder space, MyData&Europlacer can have lots of slots in one machine and our Essemtec can have up to 240 without a conveyor.
« Last Edit: March 26, 2019, 12:10:14 pm by SMTech »
 

Offline PrintTec

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Re: Neoden 4 pick and place
« Reply #1464 on: April 08, 2019, 12:30:16 pm »
Hallo Max,

Falls ihr Infos bräucht über Neoden4, dann schicke mir bitte eine Email;

Wir sind der Distributor in der EU!

rjoosten@printtec.nl
 

Offline luiHS

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Re: Neoden 4 pick and place
« Reply #1465 on: April 19, 2019, 09:47:34 am »
I've been following this thread a while because we are planning to buy a neoden4 with conveyor belt. whats still unclear apart from the questionable software is how exactly would we change the Feeders during operation? For example if a pcb needs more components than available feeder slots. Is it somehow practically possible to change the feeders for a "second run" with a different set? Since it doesnt have a changeable feeder tray/cart? If you dont want to buy a second machine on the line immediately.

If you need more feeders, than those that the Neoden4 has, and you need to be able to change them quickly to make other boards, then the Neoden4 is not your machine.

In that case look for machines that use Yamaha feeders, for example the Qihe TVM920 and 925. Even the new Neoden7, although this machine is already a large and heavy machine.
« Last Edit: April 19, 2019, 09:50:30 am by luiHS »
 

Offline flyfpga84

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Re: Neoden 4 pick and place
« Reply #1466 on: July 15, 2019, 08:45:49 pm »
Hi I have been using a neoden4 for four months. Built over 1000 boards big and small with 0402 to QFNs. After the machine is dialed in it works very well.
I would like to thank everyone here who posted very helpful hints to over come the same problems I initially ran into.

Today things went bad, after two hours into my latest build I notices black shaving on the bed, so I shut down the machine to inspect the issue. It seemed to shut down just fine, I unscrewed the side panel and the belt has the outside rubber worn down to the threads in a line, but no tear yet. So I thought that is ok for now and will get a replacement from support. So I turned on the machine, and that is when the bad stuff happened.

Not sure if its related but want to post the symptoms  to see if any else had this issue.

It boots, but when homing its off and starts to shudder as it gets close to 0,0.  Then it goes back to the rest area, like normal boot up, but really never gets to the far side (exit side).

So I know something is wrong with homing, when I try to mount a program it say x/y need initialization. Would have been nice for it to say at boot time initialization failed.

So if anyone has had an experience with this failure mode, please comment. I am contacting support which is good, but sometimes the solution is very long in coming due to time shift and bringing them up to speed. This forum solved all my past issues that are closed now, still have a few, but working around hem just to get things done. An open s/w running on this machine would be terrific.


Thanks
Mick


 
« Last Edit: July 15, 2019, 09:31:53 pm by flyfpga84 »
 

Offline Tonny-NeoDen

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Re: Neoden 4 pick and place
« Reply #1467 on: July 18, 2019, 05:26:27 am »
Hi Mick,
Glad to hear your machine problem had been solved with the help from our technical support colleague.

Thank you for choosing NeoDen products.Any more using problems,feel free contact to us,we will do our best to support you.


Tonny-Neoden
 

Offline flyfpga84

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Re: Neoden 4 pick and place
« Reply #1468 on: July 22, 2019, 10:30:54 pm »
Yes Tonny, the problem was correctly diagnosis and resolved quickly and was up the next day. Support is  sending spare parts if it happens again.

Also the documentation the support team sent was very helpful on how to adjust and re-calibrate  if needed.
Thanks to the support team's quick response and resolution of the problem.

Mick
 
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Offline dcdodge

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Re: Neoden 4 pick and place
« Reply #1469 on: July 25, 2019, 04:28:46 pm »
I am hoping to use the Neoden 4 feeders in a multi-tool 3dprinting system, but I am having trouble sniffing the bus. Would someone who owns a Neoden 4 system be willing to sniff the bus to find the commands and protocols associated with it?

Dylan
 

Offline VladaAca

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Re: Neoden 4 pick and place
« Reply #1470 on: August 21, 2019, 09:24:27 pm »
Hi,
does anyone who owns a Neoden4 with rails want to sell a machine (maybe someone who grew a business and bought a bigger machine)?
 

Offline Filip Zic

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Re: Neoden 4 pick and place
« Reply #1471 on: August 30, 2019, 06:22:07 am »
Can anyone make some measurements for me?
I am interested in dimensions of linear rails and head.
Are they 20mm and 16mm rods? how long are they?
And what are dimensions of whole head assembly?
 

Offline pawcuq

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Re: Neoden 4 pick and place
« Reply #1472 on: October 07, 2019, 09:02:05 am »
Hello.

We've been using Neoden4 for 2 years and recently some feeders give us error as in attachment.
Header just go over certain feeder, it stops, does nothing (doesn't try to pick up part or move/peel tape) and immediately after that we get error.

Did anyone happen to have such issue and managed to fix it?
 

Offline pawcuq

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Re: Neoden 4 pick and place
« Reply #1473 on: October 07, 2019, 03:40:41 pm »
Hello.

We've been using Neoden4 for 2 years and recently some feeders give us error as in attachment.
Header just go over certain feeder, it stops, does nothing (doesn't try to pick up part or move/peel tape) and immediately after that we get error.

Did anyone happen to have such issue and managed to fix it?

OK it turned out that white cable was broken inside the feeder. After resoldering everything came back to normal.
 

Offline SergeyG

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Re: Neoden 4 pick and place
« Reply #1474 on: October 10, 2019, 01:30:37 pm »
Yes, just move the power cable feeders.

In 1 year of use I stopped working 3 feeders
 


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