Neoden 4 pick and place

[Jefferson]

Some inaccuracies installation of parts you want? Then yes.
I wondered where does throw a component?
If it isn't successful. Where trashbox? I don't find this.

[Smallsmt]

Hi I am Michael the engineer behind smallsmt.
We have a drop box location on the north feeder side you only need to add a box.
The machine speed is up to 3600 parts per hour for one head without vision but we have 2 heads.
Please review our posting on twitter.
If you like to ask me anything about the machines feel free to contact me.
Check my knowledge on Dangerousprototypes.com my username is supertronic
We do a web meeting for every customer who want to see machine and software working.
Ask me for a date it's for free no problem.
You can visit me in Germany too!
https://twitter.com/smallsmt/status/691733948074954753

Best regards
Michael

[spool_of_wire]

Does anyone know of one of these in the wild?   On paper at least this machine is a better fit for me than the Neoden 4.   I'm In China in Late Feb, and i'm thinking that i might go and check these guys out.  Its not too far out of my way, and would be a good day trip. 

I'm not adverse to it running on a PC.   I do really like that it will support a very large number of reels. Even if its a bit slow.

After I made the post you originally quoted me on I got a pm at the dangerous prototypes forum from Michael (Smallsmt engineer).

He's a very up front guy and not pushy and was very open. Which I'd say is much better than a few other sellers of  pnp machines who seem to just be pushing their business. He had said that they had about 120 in Asia and 24 overseas. Before I make a commitment to purchase one I'd really like all the feedback I can get. This is a big enough purchase for me that I can't afford to make a mistake. (I won't be able to afford another one)

If you post here (or start a new thread on another forum) pm me as I'd be interested in following it.

-J

[rwb]

@SmallSMT Do you have any videos of your machine in action? Would love to see some if you do! 

[mrpackethead]

If i get this right, this is German Engineered, and made in China?

NB, theres some videos on their twitter page.


I've started a new thread over here

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/smallsmt-discussion-thread/

[TheSteve]

I am pleased to report we had some pretty decent success today, there is light at the end of the tunnel! It also built our boards a little quicker then the Juki 570L did and we should still still be able to speed it up.

[ocmaster85]

Hi,

( First post )

I own a small comapny making solutions for drones as a hobby/extra job..
It's growing too big for me to hand assemble the units, and i'm looking into a small pick&place unit to help save some time on larger batches..

Is the Neo4 getting to the point where the software is ready to be used for production ? I've read all the posts in this thread, and i'm more or less convinced that it will get there eventually..
@TheSteve - how's Progress with the unit, and which issues have been solved with the "light at the end of the tunnel" ?

Will follow this thread closely from now on..!

I need to Invest in a PnP somewhat around Q2 this year, so hopefully it has all been solved by that time

Can't wait to hear more about these smaller PnP's.. Keep the info rolling..

--
OCMaster85

[sam512bb]

I am pleased to report we had some pretty decent success today, there is light at the end of the tunnel! It also built our boards a little quicker then the Juki 570L did and we should still still be able to speed it up.

Good day TheSteve,

I posted this question before, but you did not respond... I was curious why you decided to abandon your Juki in favor of the Neoden?  I ask, as one of the issues I see with these non main stream PnP machines is the lack of outside support and also I do not find them that much cheaper than an older PnP.  The Juki/Zevatechs, although older machines, one can still get local or third part support for repairs, parts, ,etc.  Adding to these these older machines are built like tanks and simply work.  The negative side to them is that they are older and so the software is dated (i.e. DOS 6.3!) and are perhaps slower... but for some... like me... total CPH or placement speed is not really a big issue.   A big plus for me is that my 575 can be loaded on all four sides and so I can load over 100 8mm feeders (less if 12mm or larger).   

Anyway, I was just curious as to your rationale for the migration to the smaller non mainstream PnP machines.

Cheers,

Sam

[TheSteve]

Quite simply it was the size. We can easily move the Neoden around and get it through standard sized doors.

[rx8pilot]

I hear that. My Quad is 1200 pounds and much bigger than a standard door. Moving it even a little bit is a project.



Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G890A using Tapatalk

[rwb]

@TheSteve   So do you feel like you have most of the kinks worked out of the NeoDen 4 machine now? Enough that you can run your boards without issues?

Next time you run the machine can you take a picture of the what your finished panel looks like? A video would be awesome to if that's easy for you to do.

Is 60 feeders enough for you or do you wish you had more like 100?

How about NeoDen's latest software? Do you feel like you have a good handle on it now?


And @MTNElectronics - When do you expect to have your NeoDen 4 delivered and up and running? What kind of boards and what size parts do you plan on placing? Hoping that you share your experiences with the machine also. Hopefully with @TheSteve's help you can be up and running much quicker.

[ttsthermaltech]

I noticed a few people mentioned the SmallSMT machine. They are a evolving rebrand of a machine made by Yushengtech in China. In any case, Yushengtech / HotHotSMT / SmallSMT are the same company / people.

A new individual has come on board, his name is Michael, and he is a very intelligent individual. However the machine maker he works with are not so reputable.

I bought the Yushengtech branded machine via HotHotSMT and got a decent mechanical machine. It definately needed some mechanical / software calibration, but after a few hours, I got things moving pretty accurately. When I had questions regarding setup, I was asked to contact Michael at SmallSMT for support.

The software / controller for the machine was to be a version of OurSMT (www.oursmt.com). Yushengtech / HotHotSMT promised free software updates both in their advertising and sales process.

Now for the problems....

First problem was nozzles. I ordered and paid for three full sets of nozzles for the machine. When I received the machine, only one set was included. I emailed the sales person (Sunny) and told her that the nozzles were missing. I was promptly told that they would not send me the nozzles unless I ordered other spare parts and paid the shipping. It wasn't about the cost of the nozzles or the shipping. It is the principle that they sold them to me, forgot to send them, and then wouldn't admit fault, and send me the nozzles and eat the shipping.

Then the real problems started. The camera switching board would not switch camera channels. The machine uses two composite video cameras for top and bottom vision. The board uses a couple of relays to switch the video feed to the USB video capture card connected to the PC. Once again, the manufacturer would not send a new video switching card unless I sent the old one back, and paid shipping for both the return and the new pieces. Anyhow, I disconnected the board and removed it from the machine. It was a combination of through hole and smd components. Everything was hand soldered using an iron, flux everywhere, and the solder joints were three times the height of the smd components themselves. Turns out there were some (2) cold joints on the board, and they melted the side of one of the relays with the iron. I ended up fixing myself with a new relay, and some fresh solder work. But in any case, bad customer service.

Next came the software. Under ideal lighting conditions, I could get the fidicual recognition to work 50% of the time. 805 resistor and cap bottom vision worked about 90% of the time, but other components were hit or miss. I hoped that a software update would fix some of the problems as the version supplied with the machine was a few revisions old from what was advertised by the software maker.

This is when shit hit the fan. The software update feature always indicated the software was current. So I contacted the sales rep (Sunny) and she did not return my emails regarding software. So I contacted the software manufacturer. After a instant message conversation with the sales person at OurSMT, I was clearly told that they would not update any software supplied by Yushengtech, but was not told why. After about an hour of asking questions, I was finally told that Yushengtech bought a single copy of the software, hacked / copied the protection dongle and shipped pirated versions to clients. The only way I would get updates was if I bought a new copy of the software for $800USD.

In any case, I would not buy from them. I complained  to Michael, and he knew of the software issues. He did offer a big discount if I purchased a new upgraded machine with their new in-house software. This was appreciated, however, the new machine was more than the machine I allready paid for, even with the discount. I did not trust the manufacturer anymore at this point, so I declined.

I am 90% complete at converting the machine to OpenPNP.org software. I am losing bottom vision for the time being, as it is in development at the moment, but everything else works better than before, and at least if there is an issue / bug, I can edit the code. Also, the lead developer of openPNP (Jason) is fantastic.

Anyhow, that is my $0.02 worth regarding this specific PNP. Take from it what you will.

I do have high hopes for the Neoden. I really wish they made the software better. At the moment, it looks pretty basic, and honestly, they should not release a machine with half baked software. But if they can get the bugs out, I hope they do well, because the mechanical product itself looks really good.

[rwb]

@ttsthermaltech Thanks so much for the honest real world review and experience.

You certainly swayed my decision back towards the NeoDen & CharmHigh machines.

[ttsthermaltech]

RWB,

Personally, I think Neoden is the only China based small PNP company trying to keep a reputation intact. Albeit their previous machines are not marvels of technology, they do seem to be supported well, and do what they are supposed to do, within the confines of non-vision placement.

I don't own a Neoden, but am considering it. I am fortunately in very close proximity to Steve and his new Neoden (about 20km) so I am trying to find the time to go check it out. Steve was kind enough to put me in touch with the owner of his company, and I intend to make the effort to visit them. I must admit, Steve has been very forthcoming with info, and also with extending the olive branch to put me in touch with his boss.

With regards to PNP's, the electro-mechanical systems are pretty simple. Its all software. The best pnp hardware is just a brick without good software.
 

[mrpackethead]

MM.   You've jumped in here on January 08, 2016, 04:03:29 AM.  And made two posts..  Bo

Are you you must be Robert?  ( https://github.com/openfeeder-org/openFeeder-org-V0.0.1 )

Just need to take everything on the internet with a grain of salt, and there will be a 2nd side to this story.    Lets see what micheal has to say.

   

RWB,

Personally, I think Neoden is the only China based small PNP company trying to keep a reputation intact. Albeit their previous machines are not marvels of technology, they do seem to be supported well, and do what they are supposed to do, within the confines of non-vision placement.

I don't own a Neoden, but am considering it. I am fortunately in very close proximity to Steve and his new Neoden (about 20km) so I am trying to find the time to go check it out. Steve was kind enough to put me in touch with the owner of his company, and I intend to make the effort to visit them. I must admit, Steve has been very forthcoming with info, and also with extending the olive branch to put me in touch with his boss.

With regards to PNP's, the electro-mechanical systems are pretty simple. Its all software. The best pnp hardware is just a brick without good software.

[mrpackethead]

nb, love to hear more of your story, we are always on line on irc in freenode  #openpnp

[rx8pilot]

With regards to PNP's, the electro-mechanical systems are pretty simple. Its all software. The best pnp hardware is just a brick without good software.

Conceptually simple. The nuances are not simple. I came to EE after 10 years of mechanical including owning my own manufacturing facility. The mechanics of a good machine have to be excellent. The mechanics of a great machine have to be absolutely jaw dropping. Hitting the same spot a million time in a row is not all that easy. Ball screws and linear encoders (IMHO) are very important. Linear guides are also important - I don't see any of that on the Neoden (although I could be wrong). It looks like a belt/pulley system on end-supported shafts with linear bearings. Meh.

With that said, bad software can kill the best hardware in an instant and great software can not make up for marginal hardware.

My hope and dream in the PnP arena is that someone will focus on making a great small machine designed for small businesses. Don't design solely to be the cheapest on the market. Design it to work well and be a good value. Neoden seems to be moving up, but it appears they need to run a few more laps to get a solid system out there. Something that is around $20-$25k all-in with a bunch of feeders and nice software would have my order. Nozzle changers, flexible programming, cut tape, tubes, tall parts, wide parts, easy change-over. It does not need to be the fastest horse in the race with a gazillion heads - it needs to be VERY reliable and easy to operate. 10,000CPH 'rating' is useless if you are always fiddling with it. To keep up with 10,000CPH - all other processes from printing to oven have to keep up as well.

My Quad won't last forever and I hope that there is a solid option to replace it when the time comes.

[mrpackethead]

With regards to PNP's, the electro-mechanical systems are pretty simple. Its all software. The best pnp hardware is just a brick without good software.

My hope and dream in the PnP arena is that someone will focus on making a great small machine designed for small businesses. Don't design solely to be the cheapest on the market. Design it to work well and be a good value. Neoden seems to be moving up, but it appears they need to run a few more laps to get a solid system out there. Something that is around $20-$25k all-in with a bunch of feeders and nice software would have my order. Nozzle changers, flexible programming, cut tape, tubes, tall parts, wide parts, easy change-over. It does not need to be the fastest horse in the race with a gazillion heads - it needs to be VERY reliable and easy to operate. 10,000CPH 'rating' is useless if you are always fiddling with it. To keep up with 10,000CPH - all other processes from printing to oven have to keep up as well.

My dream is similar. I did'n see you lurking in the back of my head did i?

[ttsthermaltech]

MrPacketHead.

Yes, I am the one starting the openfeeder.org project. It is a slow work in progress, as work (real job) has me pretty busy. When time permits, I will get the initial design out. Its nothing earth shattering. Just a simple electric feeder design.

Anyhow, I am not too worried about what the manufacturer or any of its employees have to say. I paid for a machine, that really doesn't do what they promised. Since they didn't provide a legitimate copy of the control software, it is pretty easy to place judgement on them. I could have easily forgiven bugs / small mechanical issues. Commercial PNP's get commissioned by trained people before putting into service. One can't expect a small machine to travel thousands of KM's and not get a little out of whack. I was fine with putting the time in to adjust / tweak, but one has to expect that when the make or break moment comes, the software can do the job, or be updated. This is the failure point.

The funny part, is that with a new $100 motion controller (smoothieboard), and some open source software (openPNP) and a weekend of time to rewire, configure, and test, I have the machine working far better than it ever did from the manufacturer. Yes, I am still lacking the bottom vision, but at least the machine functions correctly, can be updated, and is controlled by open source!

PS. Please forgive my overly simplified statement that "the electro-mechanical systems of a PNP are simple". Obviously, there is a large technology gap between tabletop / hobby PNP's that are sub $10K and commercial PNP's costing $500+K. The point I was trying to make was that with the general availability of quality open source motion controllers, stepper drives, and motion components, there is really no excuse for bad hardware. No one is re-inventing the wheel in hobby PNP's. Sure, you can keep throwing more money at a small PNP to get more features, but really, getting 0.1mm resolution these days, even with belts is pretty easy. Making a few hundred placements without losing position is pretty easy as long as you aren't losing steps. But once again, that is a  mechanical issue causing grief in the electrical / software world. Where most fail is in the software implementation. As you said, it can make even the best hardware, useless.

Rob.

[Smallsmt]

@ttsthermaltech

Dear Robert,

you know your SMT50 is not a SMALLSMT machine and I tried to help you to solve this issue before.
I personally own a SMT50 machine it was my first contact to YUSHENGTECH and started to improve the machines.
This OURSMT controller has no good vision system but my machine placed > 250000 parts so the mechanics was not bad.

At the beginning YUSHENG worked together with OURSMT a Chinese PNP machine controller manufacturer.
Unfortunally OURSMT and YUSHENG separated and OURSMT stopped supporting them.
The reason was OURSMT software had a lot of problems and YUSHENG decided to work together with me to build a new and better quality system.

I never sold any SMT50 and I am sorry for your problems you know!

This is when shit hit the fan. The software update feature always indicated the software was current. So I contacted the sales rep (Sunny) and she did not return my emails regarding software. So I contacted the software manufacturer. After a instant message conversation with the sales person at OurSMT, I was clearly told that they would not update any software supplied by Yushengtech, but was not told why. After about an hour of asking questions, I was finally told that Yushengtech bought a single copy of the software, hacked / copied the protection dongle and shipped pirated versions to clients. The only way I would get updates was if I bought a new copy of the software for $800USD.

I forgot to explain Yusheng bought legal copys because they sold controller software and a soft dog togeteher to YUSHENG.
OURSMT was the problem but that's now history.
I bought software and controller from OURSMT too and hoped to receive better support for the software but they send no updates to mee too.
So i hope you understand I dislike this Chinese business too!

We are different to common Chinese companies we care our customers.

The same story for me with NEODEN i bought a TM240A in 2010 was never satisfied with the performance of my system.
Because of Software problems machine stopped working sometimes had alignment and vibration problems.
I couldn't receive firmware update for my machine and the mechanics was to weak.

That was the main reason to start SMALLSMT!

YUSHENG + SMALLSMT working together we are responsible for development and oversea sales.
HOT HOT SMT is the Chinese company of XIAO JUAN WU (Sunny)
Sunny + me operate SMALLSMT

I hope this is clear enough.

We solve our problems and improve!
Our customers receive after sales support and updates too!

Best Regards
Michael

[mrpackethead]

@ttsthermaltech

Dear Robert,

you know your SMT50 is not a SMALLSMT machine
[/quote]

Robert is this correct?

I never sold any SMT50 and I am sorry for your problems you know!

So, Robert your SMT50 which is not a SmallSMT machine, seems like it was a disaster..   But certainly two sides to this story.

"Anyhow, that is my $0.02 worth regarding this specific PNP. Take from it what you will."

So, what we know is not to buy a SMT50 from with the software from another crowd..      How does that relate to SmallSMT's new machines, with new software?

Just curious.

[Smallsmt]

How does that relate to SmallSMT's new machines, with new software?

Yusheng developed a complete new controller system based on a ARM 32 bit controller inside machine and windows DotNet software.
The complete machine development is now in one company and our system works good.
You can review in our gallery!
We show working videos too.
Nobody need to buy a machine without having a web meeting with me to demonstrate the performance of our system.

In every business you have unsatisfied customers and I understand Robert.

[mrpackethead]

After about an hour of asking questions, I was finally told that Yushengtech bought a single copy of the software, hacked / copied the protection dongle and shipped pirated versions to clients. The only way I would get updates was if I bought a new copy of the software for $800USD.

The other side says this is not factual and the software was not printed at all.

[TheSteve]

@TheSteve   So do you feel like you have most of the kinks worked out of the NeoDen 4 machine now? Enough that you can run your boards without issues?

Next time you run the machine can you take a picture of the what your finished panel looks like? A video would be awesome to if that's easy for you to do.

Is 60 feeders enough for you or do you wish you had more like 100?

How about NeoDen's latest software? Do you feel like you have a good handle on it now?

At this point I think we understand how to use the machine better then any tech support at Neoden. The last run we did of a few panels was very successful. We are slowly dialing in the feeder settings and the accuracy issues now seem solved. It's not perfect of course and we could make quite a few suggestions on how to improve the software and just give the machine a better feel over all.
We have the machine almost fully loaded, can add a few more feeders still if needed. At this time we only have three different boards to make, we try to share as many parts as possible. We may have to swap one 16 mm reel to build everything, we have 8mm feeders to spare.

I will try to take a video of the entire build next time we run some boards. Our current panel takes about 6 minutes start to finish.

@ttsthermaltech - if we run some boards next week hopefully you can drop by.

[mrpackethead]

@ttsthermaltech - if we run some boards next week hopefully you can drop by.

Does your machine run Windows XP underneath, and is it properly Licenced?