Author Topic: Neoden 4 pick and place  (Read 291512 times)

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Offline jmelson

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Re: Neoden 4 pick and place
« Reply #1400 on: December 07, 2018, 08:42:54 am »

I have trouble placing a micro SD card socket.
If you try to pick up the part from its centroid, you will have the nozzle on the fins between the contacts.  You need to pick it up over to the right (as picture is presented) where it is flat plastic.
But, that will then be picking the part off-center, and you'd have to compensate the placement location to get it correctly placed on the board.

Jon
 

Offline mikeselectricstuff

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Re: Neoden 4 pick and place
« Reply #1401 on: December 07, 2018, 09:29:22 am »

I have trouble placing a micro SD card socket.
If you try to pick up the part from its centroid, you will have the nozzle on the fins between the contacts.  You need to pick it up over to the right (as picture is presented) where it is flat plastic.
But, that will then be picking the part off-center, and you'd have to compensate the placement location to get it correctly placed on the board.

Jon
Doesn't the Neoden software have a simple "Pick offset" facility to deal with parts like this without having to dick about with the P&P data? What if you had an awkward part that needed a pick offset, and you wanted to place, say, a radial ring of 12 of them...
Offsetting the placement position is NOT a sensible way to do it.
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Offline luiHS

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Re: Neoden 4 pick and place
« Reply #1402 on: December 07, 2018, 09:47:13 am »

I have trouble placing a micro SD card socket.
If you try to pick up the part from its centroid, you will have the nozzle on the fins between the contacts.  You need to pick it up over to the right (as picture is presented) where it is flat plastic.
But, that will then be picking the part off-center, and you'd have to compensate the placement location to get it correctly placed on the board.

Jon


Yes, I have already configured the alignment of the component in the tray, so that the nozzle takes the component of the flat part where there are plastics. That way the mouthpiece takes the component perfectly, now the problem is how to make it place it in its correct location.

I have been trying to manually modify the coordinates of location, but I do it by trial and error, and in this way it is very complicated, because in addition to testing on a plate without solder paste, the component moves from the site by the vibrations of the motors, and it is even more complicated to find out what the new location coordinates should be.

And I think, even, that the recognition with the camera is not correct and it varies, because sometimes it seems that it aligns the component with a width and other times with a different width, as if it could not correctly recognize the irregular shape of the socket, so will be impossible place correctly the component if coordinates are different each time.

It seems to me that the best thing will be to change the socket model to one with a rectangular shape, and the totally smooth capture surface, although this will force me to change the design of the PCB and also to have to ask for new trays to place the component.
« Last Edit: December 07, 2018, 09:49:55 am by luiHS »
 

Offline mikeselectricstuff

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Re: Neoden 4 pick and place
« Reply #1403 on: December 07, 2018, 10:06:49 am »

I have been trying to manually modify the coordinates of location, but I do it by trial and error, and in this way it is very complicated, because in addition to testing on a plate without solder paste, the component moves from the site by the vibrations of the motors, and it is even more complicated to find out what the new location coordinates should be.

Use low-tack translucent double-sided adhesive tape when doing test placements. tape used for carpet fitting can be good but check how well it peels off the PCB before using it.
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Offline pakakezu

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Re: Neoden 4 pick and place
« Reply #1404 on: December 14, 2018, 08:56:16 pm »
I just discovered an annoying bug. On version 4.1.3 B8.
PCB rotation in panel is not working. At the setup checks out properly, but at mounting somewhere a negative sign is lost  :palm:
Fortunately in this case i can reverse the panel and mount the other two boards. Can anyone confirm this?
I`m using the magnetic fixture if matters.

 

Offline charliex

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Re: Neoden 4 pick and place
« Reply #1405 on: December 22, 2018, 11:46:23 am »
i posted a very very alpha build of the modded script for eagle. still have some stuff to fix/add but i did make a working csv at least once..  ;D

https://github.com/charlie-x/neoden4

« Last Edit: December 25, 2018, 06:44:19 am by charliex »
 

Offline charliex

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Re: Neoden 4 pick and place
« Reply #1406 on: December 24, 2018, 12:59:02 pm »
made a "quick" video of how to set the position of the components after the initial export.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oF4B8zPS2p8&feature=youtu.be

smoothed out some of the bugs, so it should be completely functional now, added an offset output so you don't have  to move the board in eagle(though you do have to rotate it, i'll add that)

it scans for parts with FID in the name or value which it will assume are fiducials and add them to the fiducial/mark list.

make sure you check for the latest version, i have been changing it a lot. i'm using V4.1.3 B9 of the neoden software.
« Last Edit: December 27, 2018, 08:40:09 am by charliex »
 

Offline luiHS

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Re: Neoden 4 pick and place
« Reply #1407 on: December 28, 2018, 03:34:46 pm »

Little by little I am solving problems, but it is complicated because Neoden's assistance service seems to be unaware of certain problems and their solution, or that the technician who is currently helping is quite new and does not know many things.

Finally I am having to solve some problems myself. For example, I had problems correctly positioning LQFP144 chips, they came out slightly misaligned. I consulted Neoden and they did not know how to give me a solution.

After doing my tests, I discover that when the chip is in the IC Tray at an angle different from that of the chip on the PCB, the machine does not place it correctly. The solution was simple, I put the chip in the IC Tray in the same position angle as the chip in the PCB, I edit the list of components and I put the angle to 0. So the nozzle pick the chip and does not have to turn it, this way is placed perfectly.

I had another problem with an SD socket, and I think it could be the same, in that case the SD socket is 180 degrees, which can even be worse, it is also placed on the top edge of the board. Very rare things happened when trying to place this socket, positioning it very displaced, and also affecting the components after it. I bought another type of SD socket, with a more rectangular shape, and more surface so that the nozzle can pick it in the center. I also think that I will have to modify the angle, although in this case, the new SD socket goes on a reel, and I will not be able to modify the angle unless I put it on a tray.

The machine works well when everything is correctly configured, but there are things that are not said in the manuals, and even the Technical Service does not know.

The only thing that for now I can not find a solution would be, is the lack of strength of the peeler on the 24mm reels of some components. The only solution I get in Neoden, is to put some weight on the tape, which does not seem serious on a machine of this price.

Online Kjelt

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Re: Neoden 4 pick and place
« Reply #1408 on: December 28, 2018, 09:05:22 pm »
That is not a solution, it is a work around.
 

Offline Styno

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Re: Neoden 4 pick and place
« Reply #1409 on: December 28, 2018, 09:21:08 pm »
Finally I am having to solve some problems myself. For example, I had problems correctly positioning LQFP144 chips, they came out slightly misaligned. I consulted Neoden and they did not know how to give me a solution.

After doing my tests, I discover that when the chip is in the IC Tray at an angle different from that of the chip on the PCB, the machine does not place it correctly. The solution was simple, I put the chip in the IC Tray in the same position angle as the chip in the PCB, I edit the list of components and I put the angle to 0. So the nozzle pick the chip and does not have to turn it, this way is placed perfectly.
I can think of four causes why the big LQFP ends up misaligned:
- Lack of theta rotational resolution on the Z-axis.
- Lack of suction power or suitable nozzle for this big part.
- Lack of control over rotational movement (acceleration/deceleration too abrupt).
- Control software bugs, not unlikely for these machines.

When you attempted to find the cause, did you find evidence for any?
 

Offline charliex

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Re: Neoden 4 pick and place
« Reply #1410 on: December 29, 2018, 06:08:45 am »
i placed the esp32 wroom packages which are pretty large, dropped the speed down and that fixed issues with rotation.

i don't think you're going to get a better solution than weights for helping the tape peelers, unless you make it or modify the peel itself

i used my phones higher speed capture rate to watch for what was happening , that helped to diagnose it.
 

Offline luiHS

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Re: Neoden 4 pick and place
« Reply #1411 on: December 30, 2018, 03:41:19 am »
Finally I am having to solve some problems myself. For example, I had problems correctly positioning LQFP144 chips, they came out slightly misaligned. I consulted Neoden and they did not know how to give me a solution.

After doing my tests, I discover that when the chip is in the IC Tray at an angle different from that of the chip on the PCB, the machine does not place it correctly. The solution was simple, I put the chip in the IC Tray in the same position angle as the chip in the PCB, I edit the list of components and I put the angle to 0. So the nozzle pick the chip and does not have to turn it, this way is placed perfectly.
I can think of four causes why the big LQFP ends up misaligned:
- Lack of theta rotational resolution on the Z-axis.
- Lack of suction power or suitable nozzle for this big part.
- Lack of control over rotational movement (acceleration/deceleration too abrupt).
- Control software bugs, not unlikely for these machines.

When you attempted to find the cause, did you find evidence for any?


Tested with low speed 10 to 30,  and delay pick and place 200 to 300. The problem is the same with the 4 nozzles. The nozzle I use is the CN750, the correct one for the LQFP144 chips.

I'm sure it's a software problem, Neoden already told me that with the angle at 180 I may have some problems to align correctly, but according to my own experience, even with 90 degrees already misaligns for fine pitch chips, such as LQFP100 and LQFP14.

In any case, the solution is easy, place the chip in the IC tray in the same position angle as in the PCB, and modify the angle in the list of components to 0 degrees, so the nozzle does not need to rotate the component and then place it perfectly..

The strange thing is that in Neoden, they do not know how to respond and solve the problem, I myself had to find out based on my tests. In general, the technician who attends now, although he has very good will, it is clear that he has very little experience and knows little about the product. For other consultations that I have done, I have quickly reached that conclusion, when someone does not know a matter, it is quickly evident.

Currently the Neoden Technical Service is quite deficient, with few or no solutions for most problems. In the end, I have to find the solution to almost all the problems and doubts that arise.

As I said, the machine is going pretty well, when everything is adjusted and configured correctly, but it costs for the little information and poor Technical Assistance Service.

Now I'm waiting (with a lot of delay), that they send me some customized shorter nozzles to be able to place electrolytic capacitors of 10mm of height, and some new customized trays for big inductors and other components.

In any case I still think that Neoden4 is a good machine, and with these features/price, there is no other alternative in the market. Cheaper products are toys, and products with better performance are much more expensive, and main problem is that all are big and heavy machines (Qihe TVM920, TVM925).

« Last Edit: December 30, 2018, 03:54:01 am by luiHS »
 

Offline charliex

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Re: Neoden 4 pick and place
« Reply #1412 on: December 30, 2018, 05:54:39 am »
which version are you running ? i'd be happy to test  the same setup on mine see if it is  the same
 

Offline luiHS

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Re: Neoden 4 pick and place
« Reply #1413 on: December 31, 2018, 04:55:41 pm »
i placed the esp32 wroom packages which are pretty large, dropped the speed down and that fixed issues with rotation.

i don't think you're going to get a better solution than weights for helping the tape peelers, unless you make it or modify the peel itself

i used my phones higher speed capture rate to watch for what was happening , that helped to diagnose it.


Do you know what weight should I put so that the tape can be peeled?

I have ordered some 1kg weights and some 0.5kg weight iron discs, I hope that is enough. I also have 2kg weights, but these already seem too heavy, I think the tape will be broken, if I put them on.

Offline luiHS

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Re: Neoden 4 pick and place
« Reply #1414 on: December 31, 2018, 04:57:59 pm »
which version are you running ? i'd be happy to test  the same setup on mine see if it is  the same

I'll check it the next time I start the machine.

In my software, I have detected some minor bugs, for example when I add a footprint and return to the feeder configuration to add it, it does not appear in the footprints drop-down, I have to go to the main menu and re-enter so that the new footprint appear Errors of this type I have detected several.

Offline charliex

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Re: Neoden 4 pick and place
« Reply #1415 on: January 01, 2019, 07:59:48 am »
i honestly just use whatever i have lying around since i always have offcut from cncing, the abuse of tool plate around here is terrible.

one pick and place manufacturer we went to see used fishing weights. as long as it doesnt break the tape or or pull it when its not moving, you should be good.

you can edit the footprint library in notepad as well, its in text, but it means `popping explorer open
 

Offline luiHS

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Re: Neoden 4 pick and place
« Reply #1416 on: January 02, 2019, 04:56:11 am »
i honestly just use whatever i have lying around since i always have offcut from cncing, the abuse of tool plate around here is terrible.

one pick and place manufacturer we went to see used fishing weights. as long as it doesnt break the tape or or pull it when its not moving, you should be good.

you can edit the footprint library in notepad as well, its in text, but it means `popping explorer open


Neoden suggests a weight of 0.5kg to solve the 24mm peel problem, I will try it with 0.5kg and 1kg.

About the footprints file, there is no backup option to make a backup, I asked Neoden, and they told me that it can not be saved. Finally I simply took a picture with my cell phone camera of the footprint data that I added, so at least if the machine ever breaks and all the data is lost, at least I can add them again manually.

Strange, that the software does not allow to store all the data that the user enters. In general the software is very improvable, it has a few bugs when entering data and it does not manage well positioning when it has to rotate a fine-step component, such as LQFP100, 144 and other chips.

For now the problems are not serious, although it is annoying that a machine of this price, which is not cheap, is not able to properly peel the 24mm tapes (because of a bad design), can not place components higher than 5mm (without special customized nozzles), and that has important bugs such as the correct positioning of fine pitch components that need to be rotated. And the worst of all is that Neoden does not seem to have much interest in solving those problems, as I said, in general the Neoden Assistance Service is bad enough, they seem more interested in selling than in customer service when there are problems.

Here my Neoden4 working. In general it goes well, except for the indicated problems, lack of strength to peel 24mm reels, poor positioning of fine pitch chips when they have to be rotated, some minor bugs in the program.






 
« Last Edit: January 02, 2019, 05:46:19 am by luiHS »
 

Offline jmelson

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Re: Neoden 4 pick and place
« Reply #1417 on: January 02, 2019, 06:31:11 am »
Do you know what weight should I put so that the tape can be peeled?

I have ordered some 1kg weights and some 0.5kg weight iron discs, I hope that is enough. I also have 2kg weights, but these already seem too heavy, I think the tape will be broken, if I put them on.
i use some C-clamps I have around the shop.  I'm guessing they are about 1/4 kg?  One whole kg will likely break the tape off.
Generally, I put the weight on the empty component tape, as on my feeders, the tape advance is driven by the return spring in the feeder.
The problem is the tape does not advance after the component is picked, and the extra pull on the component tape helps with that.
Sometimes, though, the component tape advances but the cover tape does not peel, and so some extra weight pulling on the cover tape would help.

Jon
 

Offline charliex

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Re: Neoden 4 pick and place
« Reply #1418 on: January 02, 2019, 06:51:09 am »
Quote
About the footprints file, there is no backup option to make a backup, I asked Neoden, and they told me that it can not be saved. Finally I simply took a picture with my cell phone camera of the footprint data that I added, so at least if the machine ever breaks and all the data is lost, at least I can add them again manually.

they are correct in that the gui doesn't , but if you open it in explorer (ctrl alt delete, choose task manager (middle button bottom row)  explorer.exe (task manger, file menu , select run) , browse to D:\neoden4\config\ it contains pkg.csv which is a CSV (comma separated values) text file which lists all the packages. d:\neoden4\Proc contains all your pnp csv files.

if you use eagle, try my ULP i posted earlier, once its all setup you do very little in the neoden4 software. pretty much just import and check fiducials etc.
« Last Edit: January 02, 2019, 06:52:58 am by charliex »
 

Offline luiHS

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Re: Neoden 4 pick and place
« Reply #1419 on: January 05, 2019, 11:11:18 am »
The problem is the tape does not advance after the component is picked, and the extra pull on the component tape helps with that.
Sometimes, though, the component tape advances but the cover tape does not peel, and so some extra weight pulling on the cover tape would help.


I only had problems with the peeling of the 24 mm tapes, never with the advance of the tape.

In any case the feeders are very poorly designed, in particular the 24 and 16mm. In the 16mm I could put electrolytic capacitors higher than 5mm and use custom nozzles, which I have already done to place capacitors and other components up to a height of 10mm.

The problem with these feeders, is that the hole through which the tape is ejected is very narrow and clogs if the component has a height greater than 5mm. So finally, I have to put on a tray any component that has a height greater than 5mm, which are basically most of electrolytic capacitors and some power inductors.
« Last Edit: January 05, 2019, 11:26:08 am by luiHS »
 

Offline luiHS

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Re: Neoden 4 pick and place
« Reply #1420 on: January 05, 2019, 11:19:33 am »
Quote
About the footprints file, there is no backup option to make a backup, I asked Neoden, and they told me that it can not be saved. Finally I simply took a picture with my cell phone camera of the footprint data that I added, so at least if the machine ever breaks and all the data is lost, at least I can add them again manually.
if you use eagle, try my ULP i posted earlier, once its all setup you do very little in the neoden4 software. pretty much just import and check fiducials etc.


I want to test your ULP as soon as I can. What I do not have clear is where the configuration data of the feeders are saved, if you have to write the data by hand editing the ULP file or if they are somehow saved in a file as a database.

I've been watching the video, and it seems that when you start the ULP, a complete environment appears to configure the feeders and generate the file for the Neoden4. Where are the configuration data of the feeders stored, within the ULP itself or is there an additional file with this data?

Offline Karolijn

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Re: Neoden 4 pick and place
« Reply #1421 on: January 08, 2019, 02:33:03 am »
Been working with the Neoden4 now for about half a year. Since we keep producing I don't have a lot of time to search for solutions of my problems and this forum helped me immensely.

I've attached some pictures to show my progress this far. We work a lot with 0201 and small pitch components.
At this moment i'm happy with 0402, with use of the vision system I trow away all wrong picked components and with playing with the correct picking and placing heights I'm quite happy with the results (seen on the sides at the picaso and tps60250 pictures). The precise placing height settings are still to be tried with the 0201. I hope this might make enough of a difference. The current results still let's me fix about everything by hand.

My main problems are, as example, the tps60250. The vision system won't see the outline of the component. It just takes a square somewhere it wants and places it according to this place/rotation. This happens with a lot components with greyish flat pads. The system just doesn't see it correctly. I haven't yet read of somebody with the same problem.

Second problem is the large chips. Almost all come placed a little bit turned, always the same way for the same component. I suspect that the abrupt moving and turning is the cause of this problem. Still have to dive deeper into this problem. This problem is also the reason why I don't place any ICs with the machine. All are still done by hand.
 

Offline luiHS

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Re: Neoden 4 pick and place
« Reply #1422 on: January 08, 2019, 05:45:12 pm »
The precise placing height settings are still to be tried with the 0201. I hope this might make enough of a difference. The current results still let's me fix about everything by hand.

According to your pictures, there is a large amount of solder paste in your PCB, which can produce a lot of short circuits. In addition, the solder paste is not properly aligned on the component pads.

Check my solution for the best and fastest alignment of the stencil with PCB, it is perfect and fast.
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/manufacture/i-bought-a-neoden4-my-experiences/msg1520128/#msg1520128



My main problems are, as example, the tps60250. The vision system won't see the outline of the component. It just takes a square somewhere it wants and places it according to this place/rotation. This happens with a lot components with greyish flat pads. The system just doesn't see it correctly. I haven't yet read of somebody with the same problem.

The only component I have with a metal pad on the bottom is the XL4015, and the machine puts it correctly. I had problems with a micro SD socket, which had an irregular shape, I replaced it with another one that has a rectangular shape and now place it perfectly.


Quote
Second problem is the large chips. Almost all come placed a little bit turned, always the same way for the same component. I suspect that the abrupt moving and turning is the cause of this problem. Still have to dive deeper into this problem. This problem is also the reason why I don't place any ICs with the machine. All are still done by hand.

As for the large chips, for example, LQFP144, the same thing happened to me, the chip was placed somewhat rotated. I solved it by simply putting the chip on the IC Tray in the same position angle as the chip on the PCB. This way the nozzle does not have to rotate the component and it place perfect. Test it and you will see how the problem is solved, in the list of components change the angle to 0 degrees.

Today I received some new customized CN750 nozzles, very short, to be able to place 10mm high electrolytic capacitors and power inductors. I also want to try to put a 0.5kg weight on the 24mm feeder peeler tape, because one of them fails me, and gets stuck by not properly peeling the tape. If all this work, I will have solved all my problems.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2019, 06:03:39 pm by luiHS »
 

Offline charliex

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Re: Neoden 4 pick and place
« Reply #1423 on: January 09, 2019, 04:02:23 am »
Quote
About the footprints file, there is no backup option to make a backup, I asked Neoden, and they told me that it can not be saved. Finally I simply took a picture with my cell phone camera of the footprint data that I added, so at least if the machine ever breaks and all the data is lost, at least I can add them again manually.
if you use eagle, try my ULP i posted earlier, once its all setup you do very little in the neoden4 software. pretty much just import and check fiducials etc.


I want to test your ULP as soon as I can. What I do not have clear is where the configuration data of the feeders are saved, if you have to write the data by hand editing the ULP file or if they are somehow saved in a file as a database.

I've been watching the video, and it seems that when you start the ULP, a complete environment appears to configure the feeders and generate the file for the Neoden4. Where are the configuration data of the feeders stored, within the ULP itself or is there an additional file with this data?

there is a pre loaded stack in the ulp, which is what is on our machine at the moment. But if you export a working project from the neoden you can copy and paste your stack into it.


in the ulp around line 130, partial

Quote
// 1..98, order doesn't matter, can skip
string NSL_partList[] = {
    //stack 1,isn't here, starts from 1.
    "stack,2,0,123,409.87,101.73,90.00,0805,2.2nF,0.50,0,0.50,0,No,-40,1,30,4,50,80,No,No,-40,-40,-40,-40,",
    "stack,3,0,1,409.85,115.04,90.00,0805,10uF,0.50,0,1.00,0,No,-40,1,30,4,50,80,No,No,-40,-40,-40,-40,",
    "stack,4,0,1,409.95,128.58,90.00,0805,1.0uF,0.50,0,1.00,0,No,-40,1,30,4,50,80,No,No,-40,-40,-40,-40,",
    "stack,98,1,1,92.27,226.88,0.00,0805,couple pf -DNP,-1.00,0,0.00,0,No,-40,1,30,1,1,80.00,1.00,1,1,No,No,-40,-40,-40,-40,"

note the last line has no comma at the end

in a neoden CSV, partial.

Quote
stack,2,0,1,409.87,101.73,90.00,0805,2.2nF,0.50,0,0.50,0,No,-40,1,50,4,50,80,No,No,-40,-40,-40,-40,
stack,3,0,1,409.85,115.04,90.00,0805,10uF,0.50,0,1.00,0,No,-40,1,50,4,50,80,No,No,-40,-40,-40,-40,
stack,4,0,1,409.95,128.58,90.00,0805,1.0uF,0.50,0,1.00,0,No,-40,1,50,4,50,80,No,No,-40,-40,-40,-40,
stack,5,0,1,409.58,142.01,90.00,0805, ,0.50,0,0.00,0,No,-40,1,50,4,50,80,No,No,-40,-40,-40,-40,

so all you have to do is surround it with quotes " ", and on the last line just " " with no comma

or if you arent comfortable with that, just run the ulp and then for the first time setup all the stacks the way you need and click save, then you can load them later into any project. its stored as a .uss file on disk

or you can create one in the ulp and then save it , then reload it later in the ulp for new projects.

I pulled out all the defaults for my machine so a new run will appear with close defaults.



 

Offline charliex

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Re: Neoden 4 pick and place
« Reply #1424 on: January 09, 2019, 04:08:38 am »


My main problems are, as example, the tps60250. The vision system won't see the outline of the component. It just takes a square somewhere it wants and places it according to this place/rotation. This happens with a lot components with greyish flat pads. The system just doesn't see it correctly. I haven't yet read of somebody with the same problem.

Second problem is the large chips. Almost all come placed a little bit turned, always the same way for the same component. I suspect that the abrupt moving and turning is the cause of this problem. Still have to dive deeper into this problem. This problem is also the reason why I don't place any ICs with the machine. All are still done by hand.

try running everything slower, if it works better then its likely shaking it about. make sure your pickup is as good as it can be and nozzle size matches, slow it down for large IC's

the vision system is affected by external light, a lot of people mod the machine with lights inside it, that can be a bad idea if it affects the vision, same goes for the environment try it with different lighting conditions, watch  the photos it takes.

check the cameras calibration in the config, make sure its not too bright.

way too much paste :) also possibly too warm?
 


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