Neoden 4 pick and place

[luiHS]

Hello luiHS,

I have a video about it.
Will PM you.

OK, thanks.
I replied by PM.

Regards

[matys4877]

Hello,

does anybody know what is status of support of Neoden4 in OpenPnP project.
I have searched internet and there is very little information about this topic.
In OpenPnP repo there is driver for Neoden4. It seems fully operational, but there is
no instruction how to connect PC to Neoden's control board.

It seems that using OpenPnP to control Neoden will solve lot of software related
problems.

Regards,
Mateusz

[Andi86]

Hi guys,

I am working with a Neoden4 and I used the wrong nozzle (XN07) to pick up a 0201 component. Now the component is stuck inside the nozzle 
Does anyone know a good way of getting the component out without damaging the nozzle?

Regards,
Andi

[Kjelt]

Perhaps reverse air pressure blowing it out, don't use too much or you might damage the nozzle, 1.2-1.5 bar would suffice

[luiHS]

 
I still don't know how to proceed to import an Altium project to Neoden4. I found two projects on the internet, but both fail, one with Python and the other with Java.

On the other hand, the document they send me from Neoden, I find it confusing. According to his instructions, it would not be necessary to recalculate the coordinates of all the components to put the real coordinates, but it would be enough to put only the real coordinates of the first component of the list and the fiducials.

Does anyone have experience with Altium?

I normally work with Eagle, and for that I have a ULP that converts the PCB coordinates to real coordinates for all the components, so that the file that I import to the Neoden project already has all the components with real coordinates, that's what I am looking for Altium, but for now I can't.

 

[VladaAca]

...I don't know what Neoden expect but this maybe help:
in Altium pcb editor choose edit/origin/set origin, and choose point for origin. Later, when you use  file/assembly outputs/generates pick and place files for make p&p file, component coordinates will be calculated with respect to this point. By the wise choice of this point maybe You can solve some of  problems.

[luiHS]

...I don't know what Neoden expect but this maybe help:
in Altium pcb editor choose edit/origin/set origin, and choose point for origin. Later, when you use  file/assembly outputs/generates pick and place files for make p&p file, component coordinates will be calculated with respect to this point. By the wise choice of this point maybe You can solve some of  problems.

 
Thanks
And what are the coordinates of the point of origin?

 

[SMTech]

I don't have one, but I would guess there are a  couple of options of what might need to happen.

Often the pick data output from your cad package has an origin nowhere near the PCB or in the center of it. It is quite possible Neodens software would prefer the origin 0,0 to represent a corner of the PCB, on many machines this would be front left but I do know some machines work from a different corner and the translation/import software would therefore need to shift the co-ordinates and also possibly flip them. You should be able to work this out by comparing a manually created file with one from Altium, but equally looking at what the programs you says don't work do or one of the eagle plugins people have made you should be able to work it out from there.

[pisoiu]

Thanks
And what are the coordinates of the point of origin?

Hi,
I currently use circuit studio, which is pretty much a stripped altium, and before that, protel99se for years.
With altium you can set the orgin wherever you want it to be. I usually put it to lower left corner of pcb, so I have positive coordinates. Origin is 0,0, obviously.
When generate pick and place files, protel/circuitstudio outputs text/spreadsheet files with 3 sets of x/y coordinates. mid x/y are coordinates of the middle of the component, I use these as pick and place source data. Ref x/y are origin coordinates of the component, as defined in library, usually pin 1. Padx/y I'm not sure, never used them.
Beside that, you need component rotation, it's there, and also layer indication, top/bottom. The top coordinates can be used as is, but the bottom coordinates must be mirrored, I think the pick and place machine software should do this if it knows board dimensions. Bottom components coordinates from altium are seen from top, through the board.

[VladaAca]

...sorry for late answer, other members already say , coordinate of origin is 0,0. Be aware that depend on component definition (which you create in Altium) refernce point of component can be pin 1 or center (or any point which you decide) but p&p machine except (geometrical) center of component.

[Chad.Wagner]

Looking for hints on how to setup the Neoden 4.
I have done over 200 boards so far. I get a lot of miss picked parts.

[Chad.Wagner]

We had no problems with the sot23 transistors. 
Feeder strength 50,  peel strength 80,
pick delay 30  and place delay 30, it appears to be milliseconds.  I set it to 500 for testing and looked like 1/2 a second.

This is what I was looking for!

I will try these numbers on my next build.

[Chad.Wagner]

OnE thing we discovered that really helps picking and components popping out of tape is to turn down the peeler strength.   The default is 80 but for all 8mm tapes we switches to 40.  Really cuts down the noise and vibration and seems the feeder and popped components are much fewer now.  I think for all wider tapes and small ICs we turned it up a bit to 50 or 60.  And big components left at 80.  Basically it's easier to keep this low and turn up if the tape doesn't peel.

Size checking seems to work almost but we have turned off vacuum check completely.   For the size check it's good to have it on for small compinents just to check for sideways pick.  You have to assign a footprint and create the size of it.  We played with the size a lot and ultimately for 0402 we had to do the single component image check rather than the joint 4 at a time.  With the 4 at a time, the resolution seemed too low for 0402 and sometimes the detect box was too small or big and got tossed.  Still better than a bad pick or place since most 0402s are fractions of a penny.   We're averaging 2ish per 100 total components probably 75 being 0402s.  Then on 0603 it is works better so good to have on.  Hint... look at the blue box it makes.  It's too bad the message or output window doesn't give details about the failure... this should be one line of code!!!.

I asked neoden about how the footprint check works and what the tolerance is but got the typical answer that probably means they don't know or simply don't have a good answer.  The shame is I really just want about 40% tolerance or so to check for sideways or 90 degree rotated picks... but no setting for it.

Oh and our biggest problem with vision check and alignment has been that two of the small nozzles were black but have worn and now are a metallic or white color in the bottom camera.  So now the white metallic look of the nozzle blurs with the pad portion of 0402s and cause rejects.  We literally have a black sharpie and paint the nozzle tip before a panel and that helps great until it starts wearing again.   Gonna try some gun or metal blacking chemical soon. 

Does anyone know the optimal height to pick components and to place?  I'd say by far our biggest problem is bad feeds and components coming out or bad picks.   The nozzles have a few mm of spring.  So should we pick 0.1mm above and rely on suction, try exact, or purposely push down a bit.  Same for placement... try for flush on pcb so we smashing paste... or in deeper or less?

We also saw that for sot23s and such it's best to run 50% speed.

On new phone with annoying auto correct keyboard so excuse my grammar and typos...

Big thanks for this post!

[TankSparks]

I've owned Neoden since Jan 2016,  I'm not impressed Mr Neoden

Software improvements required
Retries stuck at 5 for all parts.  So now if the tape doesn't peel properly on the reel it will proceed to spit out  $3 ICs onto the floor 5 times in a row.
This happens a lot.  I have requested them to adjust this 4 years ago. They don’t care about their software.

Camera Brightness level is global and not for each component.  Some parts may require 50% brightness, some parts may require 70%. This will make you curse for sure.  Also requested this fix 4 years ago. 


Acceleration and rotation are too harsh, moving parts on the nozzle.  Actually it really needs more suction

Auto adjust pick height.  Not sure why they can't make that automatic,  they have a vacuum sensor

Z height is weird,    0 should equal top of PCB board.

Not enough suction.  Can’t pick heavy parts.  like a TO-250

In the end you end up with a lot parts on the floor and having to readjust parts on the board,  doing nothing smaller than a 0603

[maxkunes]

The brightness isn't too big of a deal for me, however there a few parts that I can't PNP because of what you described.

You can lower the speed which in my case solves any acceleration issues.

Pick height: It should be automatic. I've just given up and eyeballed the numbers. I don't see any real difference in properly calibrated numbers and guesses.

I don't have too much issue with Z height. Is should be global, not just per board.

I just made 20 or so board that each have a couple hundred 0402 caps and resistors. I don't know the failure rate (nor do I care at the price of those parts), but I can't imagine it is very high.

I do have a bit of a graveyard in the carpet, under the machine though.

Every single issue we have described can be fixed in software. I'm waiting for openPNP.

[Muxa]

Good afternoon. Faced with such a problem. When programming a new board on the machine, the reference points are lost. Going to the board settings, everything is fine, but when you start the feeder on goes to the coordinates of the reference points.. who knows how to beat this problem!?

[luiHS]

Hello.
I have already had the machine for two years, and the truth is I am not very satisfied with certain problems that the Neoden4 has. I do not think it is a failure of my machine but the normal operation of the machine.

I am referring in particular to the poor precision that feeders have when used with small components, for example 0402, 0603 resistors or capacitors.

I have found that a lot of components are lost because the feeders are not feeding the reel of components correctly and accurately. This often means that the component is not positioned in the feeder and when the nozzle goes to look for it when it cannot find it, the spool advances one step and the component is lost. I notice that this happens very frequently, and it is not a specific failure of a feeder, I have many 8mm feeders and I notice the same in practically all of them.

What experience do you have in this regard, your Neoden4 also lacks precision in 8mm feeders with small components?

Other than that, the machine also doesn't have the precision needed to place fine pitch chips, like LQFP144 and with some QFNs.

There are other deficiencies that I discovered some time ago, such as not being able to put components higher than 5mm, this eliminates the possibility of putting most electrolytic capacitors.

[pakakezu]

So after a couple of years with our Neoden 4 the Y axis linear bearing wear reached a concerning level. No big deal, order new bearings, linear rails, replace parts, good for a couple of years.
But after reassembly things did not add up, X Y perpendicularity was bad, after a some head scratching turned into swearing.
The problem: the aluminum bearing housing is defective? from the factory. The main bearing hole is bored in an angle, creating a non 90degree alignment, adding extra tension in the system.
Visible to the naked eye, measurements confirm the suspicion.

Now i'm left with 3 options:
- Assemble as is, dealing with premature wear and placement errors
- Trying to get somebody to replicate the component / fix this one
- Trying to get Neoden to send a replacement part, but given the software support in the last year or so i'm pessimistic about that.

Pictures with the problem and measurements.
Yes i'm a bit disappointed, wanted to went a bit.

[taraf]

Hi,

Just joined this forum, I am looking to sell our Neoden4 system and oven, we have 2 and only need 1.
Can anyone recommend where to list it?


Thanks, Tom

[jmelson]

Does anyone have experience with Altium?

I use Protel 99, which it the earlier version of Altium, I think the P&P file is similar.
First, depending on the P&P's coordinate system, set the origin to the correct corner of the board.
When you generate the P&P file, everything will be referenced to that corner.
Make sure your import program uses the column for the centroid of the part, not the pin 1 coordinate.
Rotations are not standard.  My Philips machine would take -90, +90 and if you specifiec 270 it would spin the part 270 degrees, even though -90 was a lot shorter.  My Quad (Samsung) only takes 270 when you want -90, negative numbers drive it crazy.  All the fields in the P&P file should be pretty self-explanatory.  Part designator, package, position, part number, etc.

Jon

[matys4877]

Hello all,

we have made big progress with OpenPnP and Neoden4.

Here is video where we place 0201 and 01005



More info:

https://github.com/openpnp/openpnp/issues/1063

Regards
Mateusz

[JanL]

Very impressive!

[djoshi]

Hi All

I am new to this forum, we have recently purchased the Neoden 4 and are using it for a small production.

We are having some issues with QFTP components and i am wondering if anyone else has had some similar issue and if there is away to solve it.

I have panel with 4 PCB,  which are configured as 2 x 2.

A certain PCB is causing a slight issue, where the component is slight off angle.

Please see my images below:

[philby]

Hi all,

We just purchased a NeoDen4 which arrived on Monday.

I have been setting the machine up and initially it worked well, but we have started to notice some errors in its operation. All the problems are with the head operation.
1)   Sometimes the downwards facing camera takes a “black” photo (i.e. no image).
2)   Sometimes the pick nozzle does not respond. It sometimes is held down and can only be released by turning off the machine. Other times, it does not drop down even when using the manual test mode.
3)   Sometimes the downward facing camera flash does not turn off. The flash remains on continually.

The other parts of the machine (feeders, peelers, XY movement, rail control, upwards facing camera) all work without issue.

Any ideas? It feels like a software/driver bug because sometimes the test buttons in the “manual test“ tab work then just randomly stop working.

UPDATE: I think I have fixed the issue. Initially I was using a standard screen LCD (4:3), but changed to wide screen (16:9) LCD to make programming the machine easier. I only started having/noticing issues after changing to the wide screen. I changed back to the standard screen and the issues went away. Fingers crossed.

[djoshi]

HI Philby

Where about are your based? Are you in the UK?

I managed to solve my issue, by calibrating my nozzles and then using the fiducial on each PCB, rather then just the panel?