Author Topic: Neoden 4 pick and place  (Read 358029 times)

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Online TheSteve

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Re: Neoden 4 pick and place
« Reply #25 on: December 24, 2015, 08:24:55 pm »
We didn't have too much time to play with it but did power it up.
It has an integrated PC using an Atom processor. It runs Windows XP, in chinese. They have stripped it down so you turn it on and it starts the PnP program. If you exit the program you're left with a blank screen. There is an option to update the PnP program using a USB thumb drive. The machine itself requires a 1280x1024 monitor, usb mouse and usb keyboard. It has two additional usb ports for flash drives etc. So if the PC/OS has a problem I don't see it being easy to fix. We did see an access port on the bottom of the machine but didn't want to put the machine on its side to access it. I think I'd like to make an image of the hard drive at some point.

The fit and finish of the machine actually gives confidence, they have finished everything well - on first impression anyway.

The nozzles use a spring ball detent to hold them in place. So they can be popped in and out by hand without too much effort. The cameras seem to work well. We got 30 8 mm, and a few each of the 12,16, and 24mm feeders as well as the vibe feeder. They are pretty easy to load and in testing seemed to work well. However this is where we found a detail they really need to improve. The wiring and connector that goes to each "peel box"(motorized box that peels back the covering tape from the reels) hang down and are in the way when you load the 8 mm reels. It does appear we should be able to carefully bundle each one and tuck them just far enough out of the way they won't be constantly chaffed and stressed by the reels. That leads me to the second issue. Someone clearly made a mistake when measuring the space needed to put a reel into the machine. They mounted the peel boxes a little too low so that the reels have to be slightly distorted to load them. The plastic on the reels is generally pretty soft so it is fine but there is no reason they couldn't have mounted them 3 mm higher to eliminate the problem. I wouldn't doubt the next batch of machines has this issue fixed.
Aside from that the machine seems to work well in the limited testing we did. The software looks a little clunky on initial impression but may just do the job. I will take some pics of the screens in the future and of course some vids of it in operation. I am not back in the office until next year now though so it will have to wait.

edit - some other details I just remembered. There is no safety interlock that detects when the lid is opened - so keep your hands clear! Also the emergency stop button is far from "smart", it simply disconnects all power to the entire machine.
« Last Edit: December 24, 2015, 08:27:40 pm by TheSteve »
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Offline mikeselectricstuff

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Re: Neoden 4 pick and place
« Reply #26 on: December 24, 2015, 08:40:49 pm »
edit - some other details I just remembered. There is no safety interlock that detects when the lid is opened -
That will probably be a requirement for EU CE marking (machinery directive)
Quote
Also the emergency stop button is far from "smart", it simply disconnects all power to the entire machine.
You don't want an e-stop to be too clever, but cutting power to just the motors might be a more sensible option
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Online TheSteve

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Re: Neoden 4 pick and place
« Reply #27 on: December 24, 2015, 08:55:22 pm »
edit - some other details I just remembered. There is no safety interlock that detects when the lid is opened -
That will probably be a requirement for EU CE marking (machinery directive)
Quote
Also the emergency stop button is far from "smart", it simply disconnects all power to the entire machine.
You don't want an e-stop to be too clever, but cutting power to just the motors might be a more sensible option

Indeed. Maybe we were spoiled by our Juki 570L - the emergency stop on it instantly stopped the motors but didn't power anything off. Anyway we never had to use it and if there was a real problem I want everything stopped as soon as possible. I liked how the Juki handled opening the lid though, the head would instantly be limited to 10% of normal speed or so. Of course that head weighed a ton and was huge, I have no doubts about the damage it would do to a hand in the wrong place.
I suspect the cover was a bit of an afterthought as previous generations of Neoden machines didn't have one. The entire cover can be removed and the machine will still operate fine, it doesn't provide any structure. A single micro switch would not have been too hard to integrate...
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Offline MTNELECTRONICS

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Re: Neoden 4 pick and place
« Reply #28 on: December 24, 2015, 11:33:45 pm »
Thank you very much for taking the time to fill us in with your impressions so far.   :-+
I certainly appreciate it. 
 

Offline rx8pilot

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Re: Neoden 4 pick and place
« Reply #29 on: December 25, 2015, 01:18:54 am »
You don't want an e-stop to be too clever, but cutting power to just the motors might be a more sensible option

My CNC mills E-stop simply cuts the drives so nothing can move - the control system stays up.  My Quad P&P E-stop cuts all power which sucks because it's a PC driven device and PC's don't like that kind of treatment.
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Offline rx8pilot

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Re: Neoden 4 pick and place
« Reply #30 on: December 25, 2015, 01:20:44 am »
How many feeders can you put in it? Does it handle bigger parts - 24mm, 32mm, 44mm, 56mm? Tall parts like electrolytic caps?
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Online TheSteve

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Re: Neoden 4 pick and place
« Reply #31 on: December 25, 2015, 01:41:55 am »
You don't want an e-stop to be too clever, but cutting power to just the motors might be a more sensible option

My CNC mills E-stop simply cuts the drives so nothing can move - the control system stays up.  My Quad P&P E-stop cuts all power which sucks because it's a PC driven device and PC's don't like that kind of treatment.

Yep, that is our major concern, this just kills power to everything including the PC.
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Offline rx8pilot

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Re: Neoden 4 pick and place
« Reply #32 on: December 25, 2015, 02:05:50 am »
I did re-route the PC power to a non-switched circuit while installing the whole machine UPS system. So now, the E-stop only stops the motion control.

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Offline mikeselectricstuff

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Re: Neoden 4 pick and place
« Reply #33 on: December 25, 2015, 10:35:58 am »
I'd be interested in seeing more detail on the feeders - from what I can see, each unit is not a complete feeder in its own right, and they can't be loaded before fitting.
Is it easy to fit/remove feeders and rearrange their positions on the machine?
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Online TheSteve

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Re: Neoden 4 pick and place
« Reply #34 on: December 25, 2015, 07:05:04 pm »
I'd be interested in seeing more detail on the feeders - from what I can see, each unit is not a complete feeder in its own right, and they can't be loaded before fitting.
Is it easy to fit/remove feeders and rearrange their positions on the machine?

The feeders and "peel box" are separate units. Both sit on an aluminum rail and are locked in place by a single grub screw. They each have a power/control cable. The feeder uses a 4 pin cable, the peel box uses a 2 pin. Disconnecting and moving the feeders isn't practical, especially if they are all loaded. I believe they are designed to stay in place, instead you would dismount the reel. The connection cables look too delicate to be removed often. Larger reels sit away from the machine on a stand. So while it is rather basic it does keep the cost of the feeders low and they are actually easy and quick to load. They are also very solid when mounted which will keep the pick position firmly fixed as we're hoping to run 0805 and 0603 passives with no camera.
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Online TheSteve

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Re: Neoden 4 pick and place
« Reply #35 on: December 25, 2015, 07:07:53 pm »
How many feeders can you put in it? Does it handle bigger parts - 24mm, 32mm, 44mm, 56mm? Tall parts like electrolytic caps?

I can't remember the exact number of feeders possible, I will verify when back in the shop. I think the largest feeder is 24mm, larger parts would be handled in tray format. I recall being told it will support up to four trays at once(they would need to be small trays/rows if you had four of them). I also saw a thickness spec but can't remember it at the moment, I know it can do taller parts then our Juki 570L was able to do.
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Offline Kappes Buur

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Re: Neoden 4 pick and place
« Reply #36 on: December 25, 2015, 08:13:17 pm »
 

Offline sam512bb

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Re: Neoden 4 pick and place
« Reply #37 on: December 26, 2015, 05:10:21 pm »
Quote from: TheSteve
No, they are powered individually.

We ordered the stand, the machine, several nozzles, 40 to 50 feeders, the vibe feeder. Pretty much everything but the conveyor.
It wasn't my call to buy it, but it is replacing a Juki 570. We don't really assemble enough product to truly justify having our own machine but it sure is way more fun then paying someone to do it. It is also small enough we can put our mini production line anywhere.
DHL said we would receive it Friday but in the end it got stuck in customs. I will take pictures of it as soon as it arrives and give details as we set it up and try assembly some boards which should all happen next week.

Good day TheSteve,

I was curious as to why you decided to replace your Juki 570 with this Neoden unit?  I realize that the 570 is an older machine, but it is solid machine and relatively well supported.  The only negative I can see is that it is an old(er) machine with old DOS software. 

Cheers,

Sam
 

Offline mikeselectricstuff

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Re: Neoden 4 pick and place
« Reply #38 on: December 26, 2015, 11:51:42 pm »
Some more videos recently appeared :
Software intro

Loading parts

Tutorials






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Offline Tonny-NeoDen

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Re: Neoden 4 pick and place
« Reply #39 on: December 31, 2015, 03:22:06 am »
Hello All,
Happy New Year.

We would like to wish you and your family a prosperous New Year.We also would like to take this opportunity to say thank you for your continuously attention and support to NeoDen Tech's products,feel so happy & pleasant to cooperate with you in 2015.

Need further help in using of our machines,can feel free contact us.

Hope you have a much more better business in the coming year-2016 :-)

Sincerely yours,
Tonny

Skype:tonny-neoden



 

Offline rwb

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Re: Neoden 4 pick and place
« Reply #40 on: December 31, 2015, 04:01:09 am »
@TheSteve I'm excited to see how the new NeoDen 4 machine ends up working out for you over time.

It looks like a really nice, quick, and reasonably priced PNP machine that could be very useful for a small shop with limited demands.

Sounds like you know very well what your doing so looking forward to some honest real world feedback on the new Neoden 4.

Any ideas when you expect to start running the machine through some testing?

I see the maximum part height for the machine is 5mm which is not quite enough for the large caps that I'm going to be needing to deal with but should be good for most of the tough smaller parts that are a real pain to place.

Thanks for sharing!  :popcorn:
 

Online TheSteve

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Re: Neoden 4 pick and place
« Reply #41 on: January 06, 2016, 05:24:14 am »
Not too much to report with the machine yet. We've had a few issues come up so far but Neoden has been very responsive.

-We got the matching stand but they were no bolts to attach the PnP to it.
-We received a software update but after installing it the PC software was switched to all chinese - there is a button to click to go back to english but when we pressed it it wanted a password so we were stuck until we got the password - thankfully Neoden got us the password right away.
-We have been having a problem with the parts sticking to the nozzles. It seemed to be a problem with the "blow" function(Neodens term) so we checked the pump and it turned out there was a 220VAC pump installed in our 110VAC machine - they say this shouldn't be an issue though as it does still generate some air pressure. Either way they are sending us a replacement.
-If you don't get the conveyor system then the PCB mounting isn't quite as easy as we were used to with the Juki. The Juki used a fixed rail on one side and then an adjustable second rail with a pair of thumbscrews on the other side of the board. The Neoden has bunch of sliding bars with small posts and thumb screws. It is a usable system for sure but one fixed rail would be nice to make sure the board it always square.
-The last thing that has taken some getting used to is the X and Y axis and orientation. On the Juki the lid that lifted open was the "front" of the machine, on the Neoden it isn't. I don't think this is a problem at all of course, just something to get used to. As it really isn't documented its a bit of a journey of discovery.

Hopefully we can run some production boards next week.
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Offline MTNELECTRONICS

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Re: Neoden 4 pick and place
« Reply #42 on: January 06, 2016, 03:13:36 pm »
Thanks for the update, it is greatly appreciated. :)
 

Offline rwb

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Re: Neoden 4 pick and place
« Reply #43 on: January 06, 2016, 04:20:13 pm »
Thank you for the update!  :popcorn:

I really want this machine to be all its supposed to be so I will be checking back often to get your real world end user feedback about this machine.

Thanks for sharing  :-+
 

Offline mrpackethead

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Re: Neoden 4 pick and place
« Reply #44 on: January 07, 2016, 12:29:22 am »
Just had it confirmed that the 5mm part height limit is correct. 

that is a real game killer.
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Offline mikeselectricstuff

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Re: Neoden 4 pick and place
« Reply #45 on: January 07, 2016, 06:20:49 pm »
Just had it confirmed that the 5mm part height limit is correct. 

that is a real game killer.
Seriously ? That's just ridiculous.
Is this a feeder limitation or somewhere else?

There are plenty of connectors taller than that, plus capacitors, inductors, even chunky TO220 style semiconductors.
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Offline mrpackethead

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Re: Neoden 4 pick and place
« Reply #46 on: January 07, 2016, 06:25:36 pm »
See hte discussion i had with them.   You might be able to do some 10mm parts in some circumstances.. Still this is a major dissaspointment.
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Offline jc101

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Re: Neoden 4 pick and place
« Reply #47 on: January 07, 2016, 06:31:29 pm »
I read the 5mm limit, I was taking a very keen interest in this until I read that.  I was *really* hoping they had a way round this, perhaps a mark II could come along fairly quickly...
 

Offline mikeselectricstuff

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Re: Neoden 4 pick and place
« Reply #48 on: January 07, 2016, 07:42:46 pm »
TheSteve maybe you could confirm exactly what the issue is with height - maybe head Z travel range?
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Offline mrpackethead

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Re: Neoden 4 pick and place
« Reply #49 on: January 07, 2016, 07:49:35 pm »
Z axis travel is limited to 10mm.   Feeders limited to 5mm

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