Author Topic: NeoDen YY1 Pick And Place Machine With Under $3K Price for Hobbiest/Low vol Usag  (Read 67381 times)

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Online fourfathom

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For my CHMT36 I wrote a little C# program that takes my KiCad placement files and my component/feeder spreadsheet file, and generates the native CHMT PnP file.  I am looking forward to doing the same for the YY1.

That's the .H5 file right? How did you manage that, is their standard open?

No, it's a .dpv file, based on the output from the Charmhigh ConvertTool-V2.4.3.exe.  I don't have specs for the format, but it's all ascii so I just figured it out -- pretty simple after a few iterations.  There's something similar on the Hackaday website, done in Python, but I haven't studied that one.  I don't think I know what all the .dpv file parameters do, but I figured out all the ones that mattered to me.
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Offline eflyersteve

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Some issues I'm running into:

You can only align with a single fiducial.  Note that some boards I have do not have fiducials.  This is an older design and not mine.

I've also noticed that it doesn't always check for a fiducial, even when powering off and back on and starting a run.

Even though it says it can place a max of 18x18mm part, the up looking camera can only see a range of about 6.5mm square.

There is no way that I can find to home the machine other than with a power cycle.

I've had several instances where the machine crashed into one side (exceeded it's travel limits).  I'm unclear why at this point.

There doesn't seem to be a way to define part sizes so there isn't a tolerance setting to discard out of tolerance parts.

The bulk part mounting can get confused with 0805 capacitors where it doesn't know the correct orientation.  This would be solved with the ability to add component tolerances.

That's about it for now.  Hoping for a firmware update to fix these issues.

 

Offline mikeselectricstuff

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Some issues I'm running into:

You can only align with a single fiducial.  Note that some boards I have do not have fiducials.  This is an older design and not mine.
You mean literally one point ( so it can;t compensate for rotation? Or one pair ?
Quote

Even though it says it can place a max of 18x18mm part, the up looking camera can only see a range of about 6.5mm square.
Maybe there's a way for it to take multiple images (like my 25 year old Versatronics does....)?

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Offline eflyersteve

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It asks for one component center and one fiducial which is weird.

There isn't a way to tell it the component size so it couldn't know how to take multiple images.   At least not any way I can find.

Had a couple more crashes today when trying to place that 15mm QFP.  I think there are software issues that need to be addressed.  I've sent a message to neoden. 
 

Offline eflyersteve

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Figured out the large component camera issue.  There is a setting 'big IC camera'.  It's a setting for each reference designator.

Steve
 

Offline mikeselectricstuff

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Figured out the large component camera issue.  There is a setting 'big IC camera'.  It's a setting for each reference designator.

Steve
Does that mode take multiple images?
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Offline eflyersteve

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Just one image gets the entire 15mm square component.  I assume it'll handle up to an 18mm as there is still room in the field of view when taking the pic of the 15mm part (and that's the spec).

I also think I may have found the issue with it crashing.  Seems that (and I'll have to double check to be sure) that it doesn't like having a fiducial on the top left of the board.  For whatever reason on this particular board when I set the fiducial there it comes up with some wild calculations on the board location (close to 700mm in the X axis for a board that is 54mm x 54mm square.

I'd really like to see a software update to include two fiducials.  It seems to rely on the lower left corner of the board for one alignment point which as you probably know is not very accurate always. 

Still learning.  Still like the machine.  Going to look at modeling and printing a new tray for some parts that don't fit in the included trays. 
 

Offline mikeselectricstuff

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Just one image gets the entire 15mm square component.  I assume it'll handle up to an 18mm as there is still room in the field of view when taking the pic of the 15mm part (and that's the spec).

So if its fits in the normal FOV of the camera, why does it need a special mode/setting?
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Offline eflyersteve

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Just one image gets the entire 15mm square component.  I assume it'll handle up to an 18mm as there is still room in the field of view when taking the pic of the 15mm part (and that's the spec).

So if its fits in the normal FOV of the camera, why does it need a special mode/setting?

I have no idea.  I'm guessing they use a digital zoom for small parts and need some command to switch to no digital zoom for large parts.  My TVM802B makes this change based on the component dimension definition.  The YY1 handles this on a reference designator basis (you select the option for the big part camera settings for each reference designator where it is needed).
 

Offline mikeselectricstuff

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Just one image gets the entire 15mm square component.  I assume it'll handle up to an 18mm as there is still room in the field of view when taking the pic of the 15mm part (and that's the spec).

So if its fits in the normal FOV of the camera, why does it need a special mode/setting?

I have no idea.  I'm guessing they use a digital zoom for small parts and need some command to switch to no digital zoom for large parts.  My TVM802B makes this change based on the component dimension definition.  The YY1 handles this on a reference designator basis (you select the option for the big part camera settings for each reference designator where it is needed).
Sounds like that should really be a per-feeder definition
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Offline MakeIt

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Hello,

I am very much interested in the Software update procedure. As I have seen some bugs popup on different fora.

Can someone owning the YY1 tell me how it is done?

The great city of Antwerp!
 

Offline Fire Doger

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Hello,

I am very much interested in the Software update procedure. As I have seen some bugs popup on different fora.

Can someone owning the YY1 tell me how it is done?

Probably with a file in a usb flash drive.

If it was an openpnp based machine it would be a killer in comparison to "machines" with 3D printed junk frame.

My main concern is about it's software. Will they update it overtime and add more features or they will stop updating it when it becomes "stable enough"?
 

Offline newto

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Just got our machine setup yesterday, and I'm quite impressed so far.

Some things I've noticed:

Thick components/plastic tape is a bit annoying, but I should have read the manual better in the first place. Solved the issue by loosening the screw in the feeder connected to the metal tension strip and swapping peeler friction "damping ring" for the "1.5N" insert. You can test if you have the right tension by using the manual test on the peeler.

The needle for advancing tape is quite aggressive, if it's even slightly off center you'll have parts flying everywhere. I also adjusted it a bit higher (it has slots) because even when aligned it was knocking parts around.

The "bulk" tray system works about 95% of the time, it seems to sometimes pick up a part and decides it's 90 degrees off, so it places the part sideways. I haven't figured out the exact cause yet, but aligning the bulk pieces horizontally seems to help, and the two I noticed specifically go in sideways were picked up poorly at the edge instead of the middle. The software isn't smart enough to know what shape the part it picks up should be, so it just guesses the orientation it should be. The stock trays are also slightly reflective from the 3d printing, specifically the ridges, so if you don't adjust the sensitivity, it will try picking up a little splotch of light instead of the part, it would be better if we could define a minimum number of pixels you expect the part to be. We're also going to try and make the trays more matte with a matte black painted sticker.

There also isn't a good way to mount big parts, we have a few bits that are bigger than the loose trays, and the tape they're in is wider than any of the feeders we got. My fault for not checking, but I'm thinking I'm going to design some cut tape holders and/or larger bulk feeders myself. If I do get around to it, I'll post the STLs or if I get really keen, some auto-configurable system to let you pick tape width or component size.

More just a comment on my own cheapness, but you lose about 30-35 parts (with 4mm tape pitch) for the peeling. I wish the peelers were closer, I'm surprised no one has come up with a design where they're right under the tape so they only need to feed 2-3 inches. Realistically I should have just bought longer cut tapes or full reels, but

Speaking of lost parts, they just get dumped out under the machine if you peel the tape after putting it in the machine, so I might try to lift the machine up an inch or so and put a baking sheet lined with felt or foam to catch parts.

Lots of little complaints, but it already exceeds my expectations for the machine, I knew what we were getting into with a budget machine like this. Definitely some fiddly setup, but once it's fully loadded, it will pay for itself in 6 months. Within about 8 hours I've got it programmed with our old design and testing placement of parts. Next step is loading all the parts, and we'll be good to go.

Mostly I just wish there were more settings available in the software, so hopefully the machine is popular enough for them to keep up development (or someone figures out how to get OpenPnP to run it)

Edit: Matte black paint on a sticker helped a lot, let me decrease the threshold a lot for the downfacing camera. Closing the lid also helped a lot. I also found that you can adjust the contrast/threshold of the up facing camera per feeder, which helped a lot with the rotated parts. I notice originally the camera was only identifying the pads, but adjusting the little setting at the bottom of feeder setup let it see the whole part.

I really wish the "test pick" button let me do a whole cycle and pickup the part and bring it over to the camera instead of just putting the nozzle down onto the part (or in the case of the bulk pickup, just highlighting the parts on the screen)
« Last Edit: October 07, 2022, 05:00:00 pm by newto »
 
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Offline dkonigs

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The needle for advancing tape is quite aggressive, if it's even slightly off center you'll have parts flying everywhere. I also adjusted it a bit higher (it has slots) because even when aligned it was knocking parts around.

This is why that sort of mechanism makes me a bit uncomfortable, unlike a more traditional feeder.  Especially since I sometimes use the sort of parts that might go flying.

That being said, I still haven't gone through the effort to have my own PNP setup, as much as I sometimes wish I had one.
(Just hand-assemble for prototypes, outsource for low-rate production.)
 

Offline HHaase

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The needle for advancing tape is quite aggressive, if it's even slightly off center you'll have parts flying everywhere. I also adjusted it a bit higher (it has slots) because even when aligned it was knocking parts around.

This is why that sort of mechanism makes me a bit uncomfortable, unlike a more traditional feeder.  Especially since I sometimes use the sort of parts that might go flying.

That being said, I still haven't gone through the effort to have my own PNP setup, as much as I sometimes wish I had one.
(Just hand-assemble for prototypes, outsource for low-rate production.)

I'm not really a fan of the needle advance system either.  On my TVM802 I find it to be 'ok' for paper tape components, but very difficult to tune for embossed plastic tape.   Tension on the takeup spools becomes utterly critical as well as you don't have something to hold the tape in place other than tension.
 

Offline ali_asadzadeh

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Some feedback for tony to check,
1- I think they should add a USB and Ethernet and optioanly a wifi to the control board and provide some PC side control software
2- I think they should at least double the Nozzle capacity, since haveig only 3 nozzels is quite limiting,
3- If they could make the device accpet 23mm x 23mm parts since most Usfull FPGA's parts have 484BGA package which is 23mm x 23mm, the machine would be way more useful.

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Online fourfathom

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Here's an update:  I placed my order for the YY1 on Sept 26 (funds wired), and they shipped via DHL on Oct 9.
We'll search out every place a sick, twisted, solitary misfit might run to! -- I'll start with Radio Shack.
 

Offline newto

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Quote
2- I think they should at least double the Nozzle capacity, since haveig only 3 nozzels is quite limiting,

You can have up to 4, start with two in the head and two in the holder, and (only) 4 nozzle swaps. Not sure why the software only supports 4 swaps, but if you re-arrange your parts by nozzle size, it should do alright (start with 2 nozzles for your passives, then swap to larger nozzles for your ICs, and then again for bigger parts.
« Last Edit: October 10, 2022, 05:44:16 pm by newto »
 

Offline eflyersteve

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Unfortunately, I received word from Neoden that they will not be updating the software to utilize two fiducials as opposed to the single fiducial that it currently uses.  In its current state, it uses the routed edge of the board as an alignment point, which, as you probably know, is not a very accurate means for alignment.  The reasoning for not upgrading the software according to the person I spoke with is that the machine is designed as a low-cost machine and therefore they will not be making changes. I assume this will mean other issues with a machine will go unresolved. 

Although I do like the look of the machine, I don't think I can recommend it over the TVM802 that I also use.   
 

Offline level6

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In its current state, it uses the routed edge of the board as an alignment point, which, as you probably know, is not a very accurate means for alignment. 

From a previous post I understood that alignment is done using a fiducial and the center of a part. That's not the case? Not having any future firmware updates is a shocker. I've asked for a quote from NeoDen. If this is really the case, then I'll pass.
 

Offline dkonigs

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The reasoning for not upgrading the software according to the person I spoke with is that the machine is designed as a low-cost machine and therefore they will not be making changes.
Frankly, I find that sort of product support attitude to be downright offensive.  I only hope it was something from a clueless support rep that got lost in translation, and not the forever truth.

This is why the best products are ones made by companies that lack an ulterior motive to protect another product line, and why 3rd party firmware projects exist in the first place.
 

Offline 48X24X48X

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A good manufacturer listen, take user feedbacks and try to implement them if it improve the product. This is what I get from my current manufacturer to the point even their old machine gets software upgrade whenever the old hardware permits them to.

Offline newto

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I sent a few of my suggestions direct to Tonny, and he said they were already working on matte coatings for the bulk trays, and is sending my recommendation of allowing the "test pick" button to actually pick up parts to test all the feeder settings to the software engineers. That may just be sales guy fluff, but doesn't sound like they've abandoned the development.

I do hope someone figures openpnp or a drop in hardware replacement, I doubt Neoden will do any major functional upgrades. If it wasn't a work machine, I'd pull it open and see what it would take to hook up some open source hardware. I can't imagine it's that complicated, just a bunch of stepper drivers, pump, valves, etc. Nothing exotic.
 

Online fourfathom

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I sent a few of my suggestions direct to Tonny, and he said they were already working on matte coatings for the bulk trays, and is sending my recommendation of allowing the "test pick" button to actually pick up parts to test all the feeder settings to the software engineers. That may just be sales guy fluff, but doesn't sound like they've abandoned the development.
 
I guess you never know, but IMO it's *way* too early for Neoden to abandon software support on this machine!  I can see not adding major features, but they would be crazy not to address bugs, or issues and easy features that would otherwise kill future sales of the YY1.
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Offline ali_asadzadeh

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Quote
You can have up to 4, start with two in the head and two in the holder, and (only) 4 nozzle swaps. Not sure why the software only supports 4 swaps, but if you re-arrange your parts by nozzle size, it should do alright (start with 2 nozzles for your passives, then swap to larger nozzles for your ICs, and then again for bigger parts.
This is not practical, since the machine has the sapce for it, it's better to add the supported hardware and software, since most designs require more than just 4 nozzles,
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