Author Topic: New PCB Service from Digikey - DKRed  (Read 8395 times)

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Offline phil from seattle

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Re: New PCB Service from Digikey - DKRed
« Reply #25 on: April 10, 2021, 10:29:36 pm »
Thanks for doing that.  I've been on the lookout for a board to use for DKR but the last two I made were <1" on one of the sides.

The silkscreen does, indeed, look a bit blurry on the DKR board.  The lack of panelization tabs is a plus. I always have to file them down on the OSHPark boards - not a huge deal but a bit of an annoyance. Also, a + for DKR is the 6 day turn around.  Though that may be because they aren't super busy, yet.  I would like OSHPark a lot more if they could keep it to 7 days or less. 10 days for the basic service seems more of the norm lately.

I assume that odd color on the bottom of the OSHPark board is due to the lighting.

And if it wasn't clear they are gunning for OSHPark before, it sure is now!
« Last Edit: April 10, 2021, 10:31:23 pm by phil from seattle »
 

Offline SilverSolder

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Re: New PCB Service from Digikey - DKRed
« Reply #26 on: April 11, 2021, 12:01:01 am »
[...]
And if it wasn't clear they are gunning for OSHPark before, it sure is now!

I wish DK offered something a little more tasty - e.g. an option to have the boards populated with DK sourced parts seems rather obvious!

 

Offline Bassman59

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Re: New PCB Service from Digikey - DKRed
« Reply #27 on: April 11, 2021, 12:08:25 am »
[...]
And if it wasn't clear they are gunning for OSHPark before, it sure is now!

I wish DK offered something a little more tasty - e.g. an option to have the boards populated with DK sourced parts seems rather obvious!

That would be the killer app, as they say. "Your boards will be manufactured with parts from Digi-Key's trusted inventory."
 
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Offline gnuarm

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Re: New PCB Service from Digikey - DKRed
« Reply #28 on: April 11, 2021, 12:37:57 am »
I assume that odd color on the bottom of the OSHPark board is due to the lighting.

It took me a bit to figure this out too.  At first I thought they didn't solder mask the bottom because of no parts.  But that is just the color of the solder mask over solid ground plane.  Look at the component side under the chip around the thermal pad.  All the pads are gold plated, but under the solder mask it looks... copper. 

What are the design rules for the vias?  They look like there is barely an annular ring, but that might just be in comparison to the drill size.
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Offline phil from seattle

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Re: New PCB Service from Digikey - DKRed
« Reply #29 on: April 11, 2021, 12:53:05 am »
[...]
And if it wasn't clear they are gunning for OSHPark before, it sure is now!

I wish DK offered something a little more tasty - e.g. an option to have the boards populated with DK sourced parts seems rather obvious!

That would be the killer app, as they say. "Your boards will be manufactured with parts from Digi-Key's trusted inventory."

Kind of a US version of JLCPCB? I shall not be holding my breath.
 

Offline SilverSolder

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Re: New PCB Service from Digikey - DKRed
« Reply #30 on: April 11, 2021, 01:07:54 am »
[...]
And if it wasn't clear they are gunning for OSHPark before, it sure is now!

I wish DK offered something a little more tasty - e.g. an option to have the boards populated with DK sourced parts seems rather obvious!

That wo
uld be the killer app, as they say. "Your boards will be manufactured with parts from Digi-Key's trusted inventory."
Kind of a US version of JLCPCB? I shall not be holding my breath.


Whoever is the first to do this in the US, will of course have a huge advantage - and the US needs a service like this, if it takes itself even a little bit seriously as a center for technology and science...

I wouldn't be surprised to see this happen, perhaps sooner than any of us imagined.
 

Offline gnuarm

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Re: New PCB Service from Digikey - DKRed
« Reply #31 on: April 11, 2021, 01:11:17 am »
[...]
And if it wasn't clear they are gunning for OSHPark before, it sure is now!

I wish DK offered something a little more tasty - e.g. an option to have the boards populated with DK sourced parts seems rather obvious!

That would be the killer app, as they say. "Your boards will be manufactured with parts from Digi-Key's trusted inventory."

Kind of a US version of JLCPCB? I shall not be holding my breath.

It sure seems an obvious next step to me.  One of the big issues with using JLCPCB is the limited selection of parts available, not to mention the hugely useless access to finding a useful part.  There are some folks who pull the data daily and have a way to search it, but it pales in comparison to Digikey's search capability on top of the fantastic variety. 

Likely Digikey would need to have limitations on the parts usable, but the only likely limitation would be having the vendors assure there were accurate schematic symbols and footprints available to work with.  Once such a service got going it likely would end up being the de facto prototyping method in the western world... about the same time electric cars become the de facto personal transport I expect.  So I'm thinking 2025.
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Online oPossum

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Re: New PCB Service from Digikey - DKRed
« Reply #32 on: April 11, 2021, 01:44:09 am »
Also, a + for DKR is the 6 day turn around.

They ship directly from Royal Circuit in California. I think OSH Park has them made in the Chicago IL area and then shipped to them in Oregon for depanelization and shipping to the customer.

Quote
I assume that odd color on the bottom of the OSHPark board is due to the lighting.

The After Dark service from OSH Park is a black PCB with clear solder mask.  The bottom of the board has a copper pour.
 

Online oPossum

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Re: New PCB Service from Digikey - DKRed
« Reply #33 on: April 11, 2021, 01:46:28 am »
What are the design rules for the vias?  They look like there is barely an annular ring, but that might just be in comparison to the drill size.

Most are 1mm dia with 0.6mm drill. A few are 0.9mm dia with 0.5 mm drill.
 

Offline Bassman59

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Re: New PCB Service from Digikey - DKRed
« Reply #34 on: April 11, 2021, 01:53:28 am »
[...]
And if it wasn't clear they are gunning for OSHPark before, it sure is now!

I wish DK offered something a little more tasty - e.g. an option to have the boards populated with DK sourced parts seems rather obvious!

That would be the killer app, as they say. "Your boards will be manufactured with parts from Digi-Key's trusted inventory."

Kind of a US version of JLCPCB? I shall not be holding my breath.

Note my use of the word "trusted." Do you trust the parts supplied by JLCPCB? Are you worried about possible counterfeits and unauthorized parts substitutions? (questions are rhetorical. maybe!) This could be Digi-Key's differentiator. They have the supply part nailed down. Why do we buy from Digi-Key instead of Alibaba or eBay, even though the prices are higher? Because we know they will supply what they advertise and what we order.

DK would have to partner with an assembly service, of course, and then there's the issue of exactly which parts customers could specify for this service. It's not likely that customers could choose from everything DK offers, at least for a "low-cost prototype assembly service." But buy enough boards and I'm sure they'd be happy to stuff them with whatever you want.

All that said, I'm not holding my breath either.
 

Offline phil from seattle

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Re: New PCB Service from Digikey - DKRed
« Reply #35 on: April 11, 2021, 03:23:56 am »

Note my use of the word "trusted." Do you trust the parts supplied by JLCPCB? Are you worried about possible counterfeits and unauthorized parts substitutions? (questions are rhetorical. maybe!) This could be Digi-Key's differentiator. They have the supply part nailed down. Why do we buy from Digi-Key instead of Alibaba or eBay, even though the prices are higher? Because we know they will supply what they advertise and what we order.

DK would have to partner with an assembly service, of course, and then there's the issue of exactly which parts customers could specify for this service. It's not likely that customers could choose from everything DK offers, at least for a "low-cost prototype assembly service." But buy enough boards and I'm sure they'd be happy to stuff them with whatever you want.

All that said, I'm not holding my breath either.
LCSC is the Disti partnered with JLCPCB (or is there an ownership element? dunno, probably doesn't matter). While I wouldn't trust them with my life, I have never had bad/fake parts from them on around 500 boards.  I have asked that exact question about the STM32F104 situation (does LCSC sell fake STM32s?) and numerous people were fairly adamant that they are trustworthy. Kind of makes sense - reputation is important here. 

If you know of situations where they have sold fakes, please share.  I think it's a bit unfair to lump them in with the Aliexpress merchants selling fakes.

My general skepticism about a US assembly service as described is the pricing will be way too high. I can get 10 4"x4" (er 100x100mm) 4L boards with 101 SMD parts (28 unique) for less than $100 from JLCPCB. I submitted just such an order 3 hours ago. I priced out a 50 board run and it would cost just a bit over $5 a board. You'd probably have pay 10X that for a US based assembler.  Parts alone will be 4X-5X or more and the volume price curve is much shallower than LCSC. Labor is the killer though.
 

Offline gnuarm

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Re: New PCB Service from Digikey - DKRed
« Reply #36 on: April 11, 2021, 03:45:19 am »
My general skepticism about a US assembly service as described is the pricing will be way too high. I can get 10 4"x4" (er 100x100mm) 4L boards with 101 SMD parts (28 unique) for less than $100 from JLCPCB. I submitted just such an order 3 hours ago. I priced out a 50 board run and it would cost just a bit over $5 a board. You'd probably have pay 10X that for a US based assembler.  Parts alone will be 4X-5X or more and the volume price curve is much shallower than LCSC. Labor is the killer though.

99% of assembly is automated, that's why so much of manufacturing doesn't matter so much where it is done, at least not the labor costs. 

I get a board made with 178 parts, 35 line items at qty 100 for $70 in North Carolina.  They even do the testing for me and ship tested, working boards directly to my customer.  My previous CM who charged me around $100 per board said they did the testing for free because it helps them spot process problems more quickly.  I don't think JLCPCB has such concerns.  If your boards have any manufacturing issues, do you return them to JLCPCB for rework? 
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Offline phil from seattle

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Re: New PCB Service from Digikey - DKRed
« Reply #37 on: April 11, 2021, 04:59:20 am »
If your product price supports such costs, I say great. Mine doesn't. I have had 2 boards that failed, out of hundreds.  At my prices, margin covers the loss - I toss them out.

And even with fully automated assembly, there is labor -  mailing, answering the phone, loading the parts, ...  Your $70/board is pretty close to my expectations.
 

Offline gnuarm

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Re: New PCB Service from Digikey - DKRed
« Reply #38 on: April 11, 2021, 05:36:29 am »
If your product price supports such costs, I say great. Mine doesn't. I have had 2 boards that failed, out of hundreds.  At my prices, margin covers the loss - I toss them out.

And even with fully automated assembly, there is labor -  mailing, answering the phone, loading the parts, ...  Your $70/board is pretty close to my expectations.

I don't understand what you mean.  You said you were getting boards roughly comparable to mine at $100 from JLCPCB and I am getting mine for $70 in the US with added services.  What does answering the phones have to do with anything?  Oh, forgot to mention, my boards are 6 layer.  Unless your parts are more expensive, it seems like everything else is pretty comparable or mine should be more expensive.  My board is only 4.5 x 0.85 inches, so it might be smaller than yours, but I haven't found that to be a significant cost issue.  The 0.85 inch width excludes me from DK Red.  I keep wanting to call it DarK Red.
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Offline gamalot

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Re: New PCB Service from Digikey - DKRed
« Reply #39 on: April 11, 2021, 05:59:18 am »
Yesterday, when I was surfing a Chinese photography forum, I accidentally found that electronic engineers were talking about LCSC's acrylic panel printing service. The price is very cheap, just like other JLC services. I immediately checked their English version website, unfortunately I didn't find any clues.
 
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Offline Bud

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Re: New PCB Service from Digikey - DKRed
« Reply #40 on: April 11, 2021, 06:28:00 am »
JLCPCB boards are of mediocre quality. Poor mask alignment, weak mask adhesion, blurry silk print, inconsistent silk print quality batch to batch, some boards come with manual fixes ( cuts where apparently they found shorts during testing). Ok for prototyping but junior quality in general. Will see what DK is offerring...
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Offline phil from seattle

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Re: New PCB Service from Digikey - DKRed
« Reply #41 on: April 11, 2021, 06:38:34 am »
If your product price supports such costs, I say great. Mine doesn't. I have had 2 boards that failed, out of hundreds.  At my prices, margin covers the loss - I toss them out.

And even with fully automated assembly, there is labor -  mailing, answering the phone, loading the parts, ...  Your $70/board is pretty close to my expectations.

I don't understand what you mean.  You said you were getting boards roughly comparable to mine at $100 from JLCPCB and I am getting mine for $70 in the US with added services.  What does answering the phones have to do with anything?  Oh, forgot to mention, my boards are 6 layer.  Unless your parts are more expensive, it seems like everything else is pretty comparable or mine should be more expensive.  My board is only 4.5 x 0.85 inches, so it might be smaller than yours, but I haven't found that to be a significant cost issue.  The 0.85 inch width excludes me from DK Red.  I keep wanting to call it DarK Red.
OK, I'll do the math for you. 10 boards for $100. Mine come out to $10/board Q10, <$6 Q50.  Yours are $70/board Q100.  More than 10X different.
 

Offline I wanted a rude username

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Re: New PCB Service from Digikey - DKRed
« Reply #42 on: April 11, 2021, 07:10:49 am »
Yup. I'm all for onshoring manufacturing, but let's not kid ourselves.

LCSC's acrylic panel printing service.

This is relevant to my interests. I've created a separate thread with more information.
 
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Offline SilverSolder

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Re: New PCB Service from Digikey - DKRed
« Reply #43 on: April 11, 2021, 11:07:46 am »

[...] My general skepticism about a US assembly service as described is the pricing will be way too high. [...]

This is all about the level of automation, I guess?  -  after all, an American or European robot doesn't use more resources than a Chinese robot...   
 

Offline gnuarm

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Re: New PCB Service from Digikey - DKRed
« Reply #44 on: April 11, 2021, 01:10:09 pm »
If your product price supports such costs, I say great. Mine doesn't. I have had 2 boards that failed, out of hundreds.  At my prices, margin covers the loss - I toss them out.

And even with fully automated assembly, there is labor -  mailing, answering the phone, loading the parts, ...  Your $70/board is pretty close to my expectations.

I don't understand what you mean.  You said you were getting boards roughly comparable to mine at $100 from JLCPCB and I am getting mine for $70 in the US with added services.  What does answering the phones have to do with anything?  Oh, forgot to mention, my boards are 6 layer.  Unless your parts are more expensive, it seems like everything else is pretty comparable or mine should be more expensive.  My board is only 4.5 x 0.85 inches, so it might be smaller than yours, but I haven't found that to be a significant cost issue.  The 0.85 inch width excludes me from DK Red.  I keep wanting to call it DarK Red.
OK, I'll do the math for you. 10 boards for $100. Mine come out to $10/board Q10, <$6 Q50.  Yours are $70/board Q100.  More than 10X different.

I want to make sure I understand what you are saying.  You are getting 4x4 inch boards with 100 components fabricated and assembled for $10 each at quantity 10 including the cost of the parts?  I take it these are very inexpensive parts? 

I can't use their service because they only mount parts from their store.  I can't design my board with JLCPCB components.  But that is an amazing price.  You might say unbelievable. 

Are these boards fully routed, tab routed or V-scored?
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Offline jduncan

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Re: New PCB Service from Digikey - DKRed
« Reply #45 on: April 11, 2021, 01:28:41 pm »
Why don't you go read the 10 page thread about JLC's assembly service? The prices are real, they essentially do assembly for free.
 

Offline SilverSolder

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Re: New PCB Service from Digikey - DKRed
« Reply #46 on: April 11, 2021, 01:49:53 pm »
JLCPCB boards are of mediocre quality. Poor mask alignment, weak mask adhesion, blurry silk print, inconsistent silk print quality batch to batch, some boards come with manual fixes ( cuts where apparently they found shorts during testing). Ok for prototyping but junior quality in general. Will see what DK is offerring...

Maybe the boards are "good enough for Australia" in many situations?
 

Offline phil from seattle

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Re: New PCB Service from Digikey - DKRed
« Reply #47 on: April 11, 2021, 02:56:04 pm »

I want to make sure I understand what you are saying.  You are getting 4x4 inch boards with 100 components fabricated and assembled for $10 each at quantity 10 including the cost of the parts?  I take it these are very inexpensive parts? 

I can't use their service because they only mount parts from their store.  I can't design my board with JLCPCB components.  But that is an amazing price.  You might say unbelievable. 

Are these boards fully routed, tab routed or V-scored?
Fully routed. Though they have a number of panelization options.

Relatively cheap parts? sure.  But my board uses FRAM, high speed opto, lots of lower speed optos, 74 series logic (7, mostly NXP and TI), relay driver. The parts are much cheaper than from US/EU distis. By the way, that per board price includes DHL shipping to the US.

Are the PCBs cheap crap?  Well, the first test is that >400 customers seem to be pretty much satisfied. Some wildly so. I have had 1 return and 2 failures that I replaced for free.  One of the failures was a classic tombstone issue.  No others from that batch had the problem.

Being critical, yes, solder mask alignment isn't perfect.  But, it was good enough so the reflow worked correctly in the vast majority of cases. Also, they often use a solder mask that doesn't stand up well to reworking. Not the end of the world, especially if you don't actually rework the boards.

The parts library is, indeed, limited.  In 2 ways: not every part in the world is listed and a lot that are listed seem to never be in stock.  The current chip shortage has had some impact - STM8 chips for example. And they list hundreds of Atmel chips but only a handful are actually stocked.  But just looking at what they actually have, it is still pretty big.  If you target your design for chips they seem to stock, you should have few problems.  In my design, I use a couple of 74LVC2G17 Schmidt triggers. JLCPCB lists 4 (iirc) different ones including NXP, Diodes Inc and TI. One is often out of stock but not all. So, when I make a production run I often have to switch. I have never had to postpone a batch due to chip shortages.

« Last Edit: April 11, 2021, 03:18:06 pm by phil from seattle »
 
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Offline gnuarm

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Re: New PCB Service from Digikey - DKRed
« Reply #48 on: April 11, 2021, 04:43:08 pm »
Fully routed. Though they have a number of panelization options.

Relatively cheap parts? sure.  But my board uses FRAM, high speed opto, lots of lower speed optos, 74 series logic (7, mostly NXP and TI), relay driver. The parts are much cheaper than from US/EU distis.

Are the PCBs cheap crap?  Well, the first test is that >400 customers seem to be pretty much satisfied. Some wildly so. I have had 1 return and 2 failures that I replaced for free.  One of the failures was a classic tombstone issue.  No others from that batch had the problem.

Being critical, yes, solder mask alignment isn't perfect.  But, it was good enough so the reflow worked correctly in the vast majority of cases. Also, they often use a solder mask that doesn't stand up well to reworking. Not the end of the world, especially if you don't actually rework the boards.

The parts library is, indeed, limited.  In 2 ways: not every part in the world is listed and a lot that are listed seem to never be in stock.  The current chip shortage has had some impact - STM8 chips for example. And they list hundreds of Atmel chips but only a handful are actually stocked.  But just looking at what they actually have, it is still pretty big.  If you target your design for chips they seem to stock, you should have few problems.  In my design, I use a couple of 74LVC2G17 Schmidt triggers. JLCPCB lists 4 (iirc) different ones including NXP, Diodes Inc and TI. One is often out of stock but not all. So, when I make a production run I often have to switch. I have never had to postpone a batch due to chip shortages.

This board is not just a generic sort of design.  It was very hard to get onto the tiny board in the first place.  Two of the ICs on my board are not listed at JLCPCB at all and others are more expensive than the open market.  One of those has no reasonable replacement.  It's an analog switch with ~1 ohm resistance and ±12V supplies.  Not many sources at all.  If you know another chip I'm all ears.  Maxim makes one that is more expensive in a slightly different package.  I compromised the footprint to accept either, but so far have not needed to use the Maxim part.

The ADI chip is also a problem with availability at the moment. ADI is quoting 36 week lead time.  Doesn't matter currently.  The board has a CODEC from AKM which is not available due to a factory fire.  My customer doesn't want to spin the board because of having to do all the cert testing again.  The AKM chip is up to $60 each if they are even real.  I think I'm going to get my customer to buy those parts and we will spot test them.  But they are a major networking company and the wheels grind slowly.  I'm not spending any more on it until I get the PO.
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Offline phil from seattle

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Re: New PCB Service from Digikey - DKRed
« Reply #49 on: April 11, 2021, 07:25:13 pm »

This board is not just a generic sort of design.  It was very hard to get onto the tiny board in the first place.  Two of the ICs on my board are not listed at JLCPCB at all and others are more expensive than the open market.  One of those has no reasonable replacement.  It's an analog switch with ~1 ohm resistance and ±12V supplies.  Not many sources at all.  If you know another chip I'm all ears.  Maxim makes one that is more expensive in a slightly different package.  I compromised the footprint to accept either, but so far have not needed to use the Maxim part.

The ADI chip is also a problem with availability at the moment. ADI is quoting 36 week lead time.  Doesn't matter currently.  The board has a CODEC from AKM which is not available due to a factory fire.  My customer doesn't want to spin the board because of having to do all the cert testing again.  The AKM chip is up to $60 each if they are even real.  I think I'm going to get my customer to buy those parts and we will spot test them.  But they are a major networking company and the wheels grind slowly.

Hope you didn't think I was saying you could/should use them.  I often use "you" when "one" would be more precise to my meaning. My point was just that even with their limitations and "crappy" PCBs, they are useful for a wide range of applications. One does have to design within their limitations.
Quote
I'm not spending any more on it until I get the PO.
And this is a most wise decision! I bet this chip shortage era we are living in has a lot of people chasing their tails.
 


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