Open Placer A New Affordable PCB Assembly Machine

[mikeselectricstuff]

I don't understand what you are arguing with. First of all, the price of 0603 is about 25-50% higher than 0402, and is on the order of $0.003 per piece. So no, not considerably. I'd be surprised to see a design where cost of resistors dominates or even takes non-insignificant part of the total cost of BOM for the entire device.

Second, why do you keep talking about yourself? I think we already established that this product does not suit you

At that level, the cost of placing the part, on whatever hardware,  is orders of magnitude more than the cost of the part. Unless you are making millions of toys, it just doesn't matter if a resistor costs 0.003 or 0.006

[mikeselectricstuff]

This is not a "small scale production machine", it is barely a prototyping machine. I.e. if I want to build 10 prototypes of my boards with 160 parts that I want to machine place, this is already 1600 parts. Loading that many parts in strips is a non-starter, there is not enough space on the machine to hold the PCB and parts. Running any kind of production on this is out of question.

Not necessarily, but certainly far from ideal. If you have a low-volume product where you need 10 boards a month, a machine like this could still be a viable option, but lack of the option to add reel feeders makes it a dead end if you're likely to need more capacity in future. 

[rx8pilot]

Not necessarily, but certainly far from ideal. If you have a low-volume product where you need 10 boards a month, a machine like this could still be a viable option, but lack of the option to add reel feeders makes it a dead end if you're likely to need more capacity in future.

I have around 5-6 PCB designs that I need 10pcs/month typical. As you said - the absence of reel feeders is very cumbersome. Each board has way more parts that will fit into the machine meaning I could never assemble a whole PCB. These boards are not particularly advanced either. They all have 0402 passives and cannot go bigger because of space restraints.

[KE5FX]

I have around 5-6 PCB designs that I need 10pcs/month typical. As you said - the absence of reel feeders is very cumbersome. Each board has way more parts that will fit into the machine meaning I could never assemble a whole PCB. These boards are not particularly advanced either. They all have 0402 passives and cannot go bigger because of space restraints.

I don't see the lack of reel feeders as being the deal-breaker that everyone else does.  If the machine is cheap enough, just pipeline two or more of them.

0402 placement capability is not negotiable, but almost everything else is.

[rx8pilot]

I don't see the lack of reel feeders as being the deal-breaker that everyone else does.  If the machine is cheap enough, just pipeline two or more of them.

In my little setup, I need both reels and cut tapes to be handled well. The cut tapes are no small challenge though. If I load up a tape with 35 parts in it, but only use 10, I have to sort out what to do next. If they are 1k resistors - I don't care much about throwing them away. If they are either expensive or I only have a small number that I need to preserve - it sucks.  Swapping tapes means you have to get the previous tape into a storable condition, but if you have already pulled the cover tape off of it - can be more trouble.

Also, moving a cut tape tray is always a bit nerving. I have about 8 cut tape trays loaded with various parts. It only takes a tiny bump for a bunch of SOT523 diodes to jump all over the place. Then you find yourself under a microscope trying to get the tray back in order. All of that means that I try my best to get set up on feeders as soon as practical.

For prototypes and very short runs - the ability to do cut tapes is nice when I know I only need a handful of parts, only peel back the cover that many parts, etc.

[xaxaxa]

In china there are prototype PCBA services which have ended the need for home PnP machines for hobbyists; they have a library of a few hundred passives and a long line of PnP machines that have the parts permanently loaded, so there is no set-up and very little labor needed per design.

The price is about $10 + components cost to solder all your passives for you (on one side). I have used this service for my vna prototypes, and it costs about $60 total for 5pcs, including pcb (4 layers 10x10cm), pcba, and passives.

I do imagine for production runs you can use the pcba service for all the passives on one side, and use your own pnp machine (or even manual placing) for all the ICs on the other side (you have to adapt your design so most passives are on one side). That way you don't need so many feeders and can probably place the board in one go.

[rx8pilot]

I have not tried the low-cost Chinese options - but I probably should at some point.

[ar__systems]

In china there are prototype PCBA services which have ended the need for home PnP machines for hobbyists; they have a library of a few hundred passives and a long line of PnP machines that have the parts permanently loaded, so there is no set-up and very little labor needed per design.

Could you please send a link to these services?

[urosg]

Looking through pictures and available information (and while so owning a LitePlacer unit) I think I can safely say that this is just a "spruced up" version of LitePlacer with the "upgrades" ("feeder") that community recommends for LitePlacer.

Both of the machines are nothing else (IMHO) but big toys.

Granted the "feeder" shown here is the kind I also designed for my self a while ago but the problem with this is that after you remove the protective film the parts start flying around as soon as you bump the machine a little harder.

In the last month I have replaced my LitePlacer with a chinese PnP (ZB3245TS) and for now I must say I am happy with the investment.

I must admit that there were startup problems, but no wonder on account of the fine chinglish translations. The support however is great, same day or next day response.

I would advise anybody who is looking in buying a PnP machine for prototypes (real prototypes - couple of boards at a time) NOT to buy one, as the preparation time will usually take longer that it would to place the couple of boards by hand (unless you have some really high density boards with hundreds of parts).

Just my 2cents.

[wholder]

I'm sorry I missed the indiegogo campaign on this, as this is just the kind of desktop PnP machine I've been looking for for some time.  For me, a machine like this is of interest because:

1. At my age (65), working with magnifying lenses and tweezers to place tiny parts on boards is getting even older than I am.
2. The small footprint on a desktop (I mostly design boards less than 4-6 square inches with a BOM of less than 20 parts)
3. I usually build only small batches of PCBs at a time, then test, redesign and repeat.
4. The think the fixed block of static "feeders" is actually an advantage, as I think could easily update my PCB CAD process to print out a loading sheet for the component carrier block.
5. Machine vision (top and bottom) and automatic nozzle change in a machine this inexpensive...  I'm impressed!
6. From examining the "Workshop Photos" (http://www.openplacer.com/?page_id=66), it's obvious a lot of careful mechanical design was done for this machine to keep it this simple and compact.  The Z axis design, in particular, is quite elegant.

Just my opinion.  I hope to hear more from those that ordered one of these, as I'd like to be a future customer.

Wayne

[ar__systems]

2. The small footprint on a desktop (I mostly design boards less than 4-6 square inches with a BOM of less than 20 parts)

I think you would be better off spending money on a microscope. You will need it anyway, since inevitably placement of this type of machines need to be checked and often corrected. If you limit yourself to 1206 or larger parts, you won't have any problem placing them manually under microscope. With the size of your PCB and small BOM this restriction is no need to use smaller parts.

[Kjelt]

till the 1206 parts get obsolete.
I see a trend that the packages that are not mainstream used by massproduction companies are no longer being produced, for resistors, capacitors.... prices go up, stock goes down.

[ar__systems]

1206 won't become obsolete. They make bigger packages not because people have trouble handling smaller ones, you know.

[Kjelt]

we'll see, in most mass production devices nowadays if for instance the power rating of the smaller devices is too small they replace one large resistor by many small ones (ofcourse with the scaled value).
It is all economics, the 0402 are so cheap and overall available and the 1206 are expensive and harder to get.
Simple search on Farnell (and yeah I know Farnell sucks for large buys , three times to expensive blabla but it is a reasonable relative indicator)
for 1kOhm in 0402 and 1206 resulted 130 hits, 3 for 1206, 127 for 0402.

Prices:
0402   
     10000+  € 0,0006 
     50000+  € 0,0005
1206
     25000+  € 0,153

You do the math.

[NorthGuy]

Prices:
0402   
     10000+  € 0,0006 
     50000+  € 0,0005
1206
     25000+  € 0,153

This is not so one-sided.

Here's the prices for 10,000 on DigiKey (the cheapest 1k resistor, USD):

01005 - $359.20
0201 - $37.80
0402 - $12.30
0603 - $14.30
0805 - $18.90
1206 - $172.00

As you can see, there's practically no difference unless you want it too big or too small. Anything between 0402 and 0805 is approximately the same price.

[chris_leyson]

I'm sorry I missed the indiegogo campaign on this,

Me too, I've only just started looking at manual pick and place machines. A lot of them seem to be priced at around 2000 Euro, eC-placer from Eurocircuits for example.
The Open Placer mini looks quite tempting at $899 especially with machine vision top and bottom.

[wholder]

2. The small footprint on a desktop (I mostly design boards less than 4-6 square inches with a BOM of less than 20 parts)

I think you would be better off spending money on a microscope. You will need it anyway, since inevitably placement of this type of machines need to be checked and often corrected. If you limit yourself to 1206 or larger parts, you won't have any problem placing them manually under microscope. With the size of your PCB and small BOM this restriction is no need to use smaller parts.

Well, it's not just about eyesight.  My eyesight is still fairly good and I have some excellent vision equipment, such as a very nice Mantis Elite, but the ol' manual dexterity is not the same as it once.  Perhaps you're either too young, or fortunate enough not have many age-related issues yet, but I find placing parts like an SC-70 package with tweezers to be rather tedious and prone to having the damn things fly off into space.  So, this kind of automation, even with issues, is promising to me.

Wayne

[ar__systems]

Prices:
0402   
     10000+  € 0,0006 
     50000+  € 0,0005
1206
     25000+  € 0,153

You do the math.

Who cares. The guys said he has 20 parts per board, few boards at a time. "Do the math" the price of parts is a non-factor.

[ar__systems]

Well, it's not just about eyesight.

I see. Maybe it will help you then. Then again, in my experience dealing with cut tape feeders, setting them up is physically way more demanding than placing sc-70 under microscope one wrong move and all the parts in the strip are gone

[NorthGuy]

but the ol' manual dexterity is not the same as it once.

When I do prototyping - 1-2 boards, the most time I spend on locating the correct part, unpacking, peeling, packing back. Peeling is where my manual dexterity is at the worst. If I could insert a board into a machine with pre-filled feeders, press a button and return in half-an-hour, this would be of great help. But such machines are too expensive for prototyping.

If I had to stick cut tapes into the machine every time I want to make a board, I don't really see how this would help me.

[rx8pilot]

If I could insert a board into a machine with pre-filled feeders, press a button and return in half-an-hour, this would be of great help. But such machines are too expensive for prototyping.

If I had to stick cut tapes into the machine every time I want to make a board, I don't really see how this would help me.

That is not really how a real-world P&P system actually works. Even more true for the low-cost machines.
No matter who you are or how much experience you have - it takes time to fiddle with all the little details to get a new design loaded, programmed, proofed, and placed. Even loading feeders takes considerable dexterity. If you are doing tiny batches you will certainly be dealing with very short cut tapes of the expensive parts. When those parts get flipped or fall out - you have to place them back in the tape or tray in the correct orientation.

My big take away after manually building a ton of PCB's and working my way up to having a full P&P system - IT IS A PAIN IN THE ASS TO BUILD PCB's. Even if you spend a huge amount of money, it is perhaps faster but still a pain just in different ways.

If I was still doing a lot of low qty manual assembly - I think I would prefer a good quality manual system that dampens and mechanically reduces any handshake. Something with decent visual alignment tools like a high-res / 60fps camera. an easy way to flip parts, support for big inductors to 0201 passives, bulk bins for jellybean parts, PCB supports that keep the board rigid and allow double sided assembly.

In a race - I can probably (very probably) hand build any pcb faster than someone can set up and successfully run a P&P. 2 pieces - probably still faster. The P&P system may be able to catch me on the 4th or 5th PCB. That is me with a vacuum pen and a microscope and I am not particularly fast or good at it.

[chris_leyson]

Argh, now I see a potential problem, so you have peel the tape first and then feed it in, yeah that's going to be really easy. For me the usefulness of the Open Placer is being able to accurately place 0402 parts and 0.4mm 0.5mm pitch parts. When I say accurate, I mean with better accuracy than I can place by hand and you don't have the problems of parts sticking to the tweezers, accidentally bumping adjacent parts and smudged paste.

[rx8pilot]

I use a custom-made cut tape feeder and yes, you have to peel the cover tape back first. Removing the cover tape without any parts jumping is a challenge. When you have 10-20 of them with no cover.....it becomes a real party to keep them stable. The process of picking can very easily bump parts out of the tape. Resistors and capacitors are a pain, but diodes and other polarized parts are much more time consuming to put them back.

Obviously, it is not impossible, but it is not easy. If you have 10,000 resistors, it is easy to manage. When you have only a few extra parts - you have to find them and place them back in the tape or on the board. Either way - it is not easy.

[IconicPCB]

the trick to working with cut tapes is not to use feeders.
The trick is to use a flat platen covered in double sided adhesive.
Rule lines on the platen where tape strips are to be.
Stick the tape strips.
let the adhesive do its magic and hold the tape down.
Only peel back the cover when and as you need it.

PS if the adhesive tape prevents the component being picked up dont press the tape down too hard.

PPS a crook dick will object to a pube

[chris_leyson]

Hi rx8pilot. Well I was busy typing away and then what the hell happened, elbow resting on CTRL key 
Anyway, I think for my purposes a good manual pick and place is the way to go, at least I don't have to program both the pick and place because it's already stored in my head and a robot pick and place doesn't know if a part is missing or up side down. Good mechanical damping, Z axis rotation, good machine vision and vision aligment tools are definitely key. I'm tempted to go and look at the eC-placer from Eurocircuits again, shame they don't do a smaller version.