PCB Manufacturer Recommendations

[KungFuJosh]

That's some strange argument. If someone manages to break 1.6mm PCB, there are much bigger issues than breaking PCB. Unless PCB is long and narrow, it's hard to achieve even if you try. Also thicker PCB causes other problems, such as component leads being not long enough.

1. Boards are flexible, thinner boards are more flexible.

2. This is a GUITAR AMP project. The 2 layer board is 308mm x 96mm. It will be suspended inside a guitar amp chassis.

3. If the manufacturer isn't awesome, flexing the board can cause traces to lift, and other damage. I don't have much faith in any of these manufacturers without trying them out, and all of the ones with feedback have mixed feedback.

4. These circuits are typically built on turret boards. The leads will not be an issue, and even the 3.2mm thick boards will actually open up more options regarding available components.

5. It being a guitar amp, the circuit has flexible options. This means working and reworking. People, especially novices, can be heavy handed when adding or removing components. Thinner boards or copper will not be forgiving. I don't want extra headaches because the board wasn't durable enough.

Thanks,
Josh

[KungFuJosh]

I think you are just blowing this way out of proportion. You will have component failures due to bends waaay before the board's breaking point. Also - have you actually tried breaking 1.6 mm board with your bare hands? As someone who did, I will tell you it's not very easy unless the board's geometry is conducive to that (long and narrow), or it's mechanical design is particularly bad (long lines of large holes, odd shape with obvious weak points).
Finally - if you are so sure that they are going to wrestle with PCB, why don't you also assume they will just break parts, which usually are much easier to break than PCB itself?

You proved my point. If the boards flex too much, things on them can break. I never said anything about the boards themselves breaking, that would take some intentional effort. Unless the manufacturer super sucks.

[wraper]

You proved my point. If the boards flex too much, things on them can break. I never said anything about the boards themselves breaking, that would take some intentional effort. Unless the manufacturer super sucks.

Flexing will only break SMD parts. I doubt there are many people who can solder SMD yet are dumb enough to start bending the board.

[KungFuJosh]

You proved my point. If the boards flex too much, things on them can break. I never said anything about the boards themselves breaking, that would take some intentional effort. Unless the manufacturer super sucks.

Flexing will only break SMD parts. I doubt there are many people who can solder SMD yet are dumb enough to start bending the board.

Your opinion holds a lot of faith in the manufacturers. Traces can lift. Pads can lift. Shit happens, and I'd like to avoid it.

[asmi]

1. Boards are flexible, thinner boards are more flexible.

Even 5 mm boards will still flex. You just can't eliminate it no matter how think your board is. So if you design you "rigid" boards to be flexible, you designing in the failure.

2. This is a GUITAR AMP project. The 2 layer board is 308mm x 96mm. It will be suspended inside a guitar amp chassis.

Here is a big mistake in system design. Your device should always be designed to eliminate the flex of PCB as much as possible. Design the case to have supports under all buttons, knobs, pedals and any other things that users are going to be interacting with, or - much better solution - use off-PCB case-mounted controls. This will completely alleviate the problem, and actually will give you more flexibility for your case design, as board can be very small (typically user interface controls and connectors take a big chunk of space on modern PCBs) and so you can fit it just about anywhere in the case.

Besides - what the hell do you have in that amp to have such insanely large board? You can fit entire computer on a board half that size!

[KungFuJosh]

Here is a big mistake in system design. Your device should always be designed to eliminate the flex of PCB as much as possible. Design the case to have supports under all buttons, knobs, pedals and any other things that users are going to be interacting with, or - much better solution - use off-PCB case-mounted controls. This will completely alleviate the problem, and actually will give you more flexibility for your case design, as board can be very small (typically user interface controls and connectors take a big chunk of space on modern PCBs) and so you can fit it just about anywhere in the case.

Besides - what the hell do you have in that amp to have such insanely large board? You can fit entire computer on a board half that size!

There's nothing wrong with my design, and it is well supported. That doesn't mean I need to take risks with the board itself. By your response I can tell you don't understand guitar circuits, and that's fine. Please stay on topic instead.

[asmi]

By your response I can tell you don't understand guitar circuits, and that's fine. Please stay on topic instead.

Of course I understand by the virtue of being an ex-guitar player myself, and having built several myself. It's the usual audiophoolery for the most part - 99% of marketing BS and 1% of reality.

[SMTech]

They both have valid points, you are making some pretty arbitrary and unnecessary requirements for your PCB and then applying further arbitrary properties to your potential suppliers, based on some random comments you have seen in some forums. Buy your boards from the sources that are interested in making one to your specifications, as you have seen plenty of the low price high volume online frontend suppliers only do very standard requirements and thicknesses.
At work one of the things we make high end  is£££ HiFi, so high power A/B amps using 1.6mm FR4 from PCBWay. If your traces or pads are pulling off the PCB either the PCB is ghetto terrible (rare) or your mechanical design SUCKS and your're doing it wrong.

[asmi]

At work one of the things we make high end  is£££ HiFi, so high power A/B amps using 1.6mm FR4 from PCBWay. If your traces or pads are pulling off the PCB either the PCB is ghetto terrible (rare) or your mechanical design SUCKS and your're doing it wrong.

That was the point I was trying to get across. I can't remember ever hearing of mechanical strength as a hard requirement for any of my boards, even those who were meant to work in rather aggressive environments. Mech guys always went an extra mile to make sure as little stress as possible ever reaches PCB.
That said, guitar gear is often operated by foot, so I kind of get where OP is coming from, but like I said, this is a problem for mech guys, not PCB engineers.

[KungFuJosh]

this is a problem for mech guys, not PCB engineers.

The only thing that matters to me is that it doesn't become a problem for me.

BTW- I'm very likely to go with wellpcb as they do 2.4mm, and that's close enough for this at their pricing. It's not as thick as I wanted, but the pricing on their website was really good. I've been waiting for an email back with 2oz copper on the quote.

[asmi]

BTW- I'm very likely to go with wellpcb as they do 2.4mm, and that's close enough for this at their pricing. It's not as thick as I wanted, but the pricing on their website was really good. I've been waiting for an email back with 2oz copper on the quote.

You can select 2oz option in their online quote ("2oz for all layers" in "Finished copper:" section), it seems to add a $10 to final price. Or you asked quote for larger batch than what their quoting system provides?

[KungFuJosh]

BTW- I'm very likely to go with wellpcb as they do 2.4mm, and that's close enough for this at their pricing. It's not as thick as I wanted, but the pricing on their website was really good. I've been waiting for an email back with 2oz copper on the quote.

You can select 2oz option in their online quote ("2oz for all layers" in "Finished copper:" section), it seems to add a $10 to final price. Or you asked quote for larger batch than what their quoting system provides?

I don't know what it is about either the browsers I tried, or the spec combinations I've tried, but their website won't quote me with 2oz Cu. It keeps farting an error about needing the TG170 or halogen free boards, even when I preselect those. $10 more would be fine obviously.

[asmi]

I don't know what it is about either the browsers I tried, or the spec combinations I've tried, but their website won't quote me with 2oz Cu. It keeps farting an error about needing the TG170 or halogen free boards, even when I preselect those. $10 more would be fine obviously.

This is what I got (see in attachment). I use Chrome Version 87.0.4280.88 (Official Build) (64-bit). Sorry, I got your numbers for size slightly wrong, but the final price should be in a ballpark.

[KungFuJosh]

I don't know what it is about either the browsers I tried, or the spec combinations I've tried, but their website won't quote me with 2oz Cu. It keeps farting an error about needing the TG170 or halogen free boards, even when I preselect those. $10 more would be fine obviously.

This is what I got (see in attachment). I use Chrome Version 87.0.4280.88 (Official Build) (64-bit). Sorry, I got your numbers for size slightly wrong, but the final price should be in a ballpark.

Oh, sweet! I'm also using Chrome. They must have fixed it, I complained a couple days ago. $184 for 20 or $234 for 30. Not bad!

[asmi]

Oh, sweet! I'm also using Chrome. They must have fixed it, I complained a couple days ago.

They rolled out a new quote system just recently, so it's not a surprise that it broke down at some point. BTW I liked their old system better because it also provided shipping cost estimates at the same time as PCB cost, which was more convenient as the number you get was closer to "out-the-door" price you will actually have to pay (there will still be a sales tax and possibly brokerage fees to pay before you get a full landed cost).

[KungFuJosh]

They rolled out a new quote system just recently, so it's not a surprise that it broke down at some point. BTW I liked their old system better because it also provided shipping cost estimates at the same time as PCB cost, which was more convenient as the number you get was closer to "out-the-door" price you will actually have to pay (there will still be a sales tax and possibly brokerage fees to pay before you get a full landed cost).

Yeah, I went to the checkout screen to see the real prices. Not toooo bad. $22 bs fee, and about $97 shipping I think it was, for 30 of those big boards, and 100 of a different small board...total was under $500, which is better than a lot of the quotes I got for just the 30 boards.

[Trader]

USA PCB Manufacturers

https://www.pcbdirectory.com/manufacturers?country=United%20States&order_by=reviews&sort_order=desc
http://www.electronicsandyou.com/blog/top-pcb-manufacturers-in-usa.html
https://www.thomasnet.com/articles/top-suppliers/pcb-manufacturers-suppliers/
https://camptechii.com/2019-top-4-printed-circuit-board-manufacturers-north-america/

https://www.sfcircuits.com/pcb-production-capabilities
https://www.4pcb.com/pcb-capabilities.html
https://www.pcbunlimited.com/capabilities
http://www.synergisepcb.com/capabilities/
https://www.zaxis.net/manufacturing/

[KungFuJosh]

They rolled out a new quote system just recently, so it's not a surprise that it broke down at some point.

Wellpcb can do 3.2mm also. I don't know why it's not on their quote system. It was about $38 more for 30 boards compared to 2.4mm...but of course the shipping got more expensive, though that didn't seem very proportional.

[nguyensanity]

Vinatronic has a network of shops they can see which one fits your needs
https://vinatronic.com/

[KungFuJosh]

This isn't very inspiring for wellpcb:





Edit: I asked my sales rep about this and she said "We already solved this problem from last year. If our PCB has any quality issues, we are willing to make the new PCBs for you and ship them to you for free."

I think I'm going to try them out. They're about $130 less shipped compared to 7pcb, and they have matte blue which looks nice, and doesn't seem to have the contrast issues regular blue has.

[KungFuJosh]

There was a bit of a wait due to a manufacturer error, but I finally got the boards, and they look great.



Thanks,
Josh

[KungFuJosh]

The boards look nice, but there's a tolerance issue. .6mm leads won't fit in .8mm holes.

The goofy thing is that they want me to photograph this phenomenon. Here's a photo of a capacitor NOT attached to the board. Here it is not attached to 5 more locations. 

[KungFuJosh]

I'm really disappointed with this order so far. They're really inconsistent with the hole sizes. Some of the .8mm holes look like they're half as big as they should be. I emailed my rep, I'll see what she says. Right now, I don't recommend them.

[tooki]

Oddly enough, since I can't get 2oz Cu to work, they're actually the cheapest. On a smaller PCB I designed, they're about the same as JLC but I can get the (I assume) slightly thicker ENIG from wellpcb. Interesting!

Sorry, but it's not even close. JLCPCB's soldermask burns off when you touch it with a soldering iron, while the one used by WellPCB is the toughest one I've ever seen. I had to scrape off a bit of it to bodge some wires in, and it turns out to be much harder than I expected.

What are you soldering with, a red hot scalpel? At work, we've had hundreds of boards made by JLCPCB, and solder mask durability has not been an issue at all — and this is at a vocational training center, where some of the apprentices are, well, less skilled than others and end up being a bit rough...

[KungFuJosh]

What are you soldering with, a red hot scalpel? At work, we've had hundreds of boards made by JLCPCB, and solder mask durability has not been an issue at all — and this is at a vocational training center, where some of the apprentices are, well, less skilled than others and end up being a bit rough...

I like JLC also. I got some smaller boards from them that didn't need to be thicker than 1.6mm. They were very fast, and I like their ordering process / status updates. It was a much better experience than what I'm going through with wellpcb right now. Much better quality control too. Muuuuuuuuuuch better.