EEVblog Electronics Community Forum
Electronics => Manufacturing & Assembly => Topic started by: KungFuJosh on December 05, 2020, 03:13:56 am
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I'll start by apologizing, I know this topic is done to death. ;)
Anyway, I would like to hear about recommendations / experiences regarding PCB manufacturers. I've been getting quotes, and reading tons of posts on the subject, and it's all over the place.
My requirements are 3.2mm final thickness, ENIG , 2oz or higher Cu, good quality silkscreen, etc... The circuit is a guitar tube amplifier, 308mm x 96mm, normally built on 3.2mm FR4 with turrets. This PCB version isn't trying to stray toooo far from that.
Here's some of the manufacturers I'm curious about, though I'm happy to hear about others as well (notes are mostly based on reading posts on eevblog):
Bittele (7pcb.com) - (Canada based, boards made in China.) They seem nice in email, and their price is okay (not great) a little high.
WellPCB - Good pricing, but concerned about QC.
hitechpcb.com / hitechcircuits.com - Best prices for the highest specs so far, but I have no idea if they're any good.
PCBGOGO - maybe copyright issues? Are they good? ...Expensive, overly aggressive sales people. No thanks.
PCBcart.com
5PCB.com - overpriced, no reviews.
PCBWay - maybe not great pad adhesion? Solder mask alignment issues? I have mixed feelings from emailing with them. Their prices are not great for what people seem to say about them.
JLCPCB - only goes to 2mm thickness. 2mm is fine for small stuff, so I might try them with something different if people think they're good?
ALLPCB - bad silk resolution? Slow? Incorrect thicknesses? Solder mask edge issues?
Elecrow - not thick enough.
ITEAD - not thick enough.
OSHPark - they seem nice, but 1.6mm thickness is a big no for me.
U&I Quickturn - double the price of other equally spec'd quotes.
Thanks,
Josh
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My site, PCBShopper.com (http://PCBShopper.com), contains Amazon-like customer reviews of most of those manufacturers.
- Bob
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My site, PCBShopper.com (http://PCBShopper.com), contains Amazon-like customer reviews of most of those manufacturers.
- Bob
Thanks. I saw a reference to it in another post, but I couldn't find a link.
EDIT: Please update your tool for higher thickness. 3.2mm is what I'm looking for. I'm prooooobably not the only one? ;)
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I've used various providers over the years. It seemed like they all had various issues which eventually made me unhappy enough to switch...
A while back (like as in probably a couple years at this point), I found jlcpcb through the pcbshopper.com website. (Thanks Bob aka rea5245). They have proven to be consistent and good enough for my lowish-volume production that I don't plan on switching anywhere else unless I can find something not-in-china but is still somewhat reasonable in price and quality.
For the record, I'm still doing HASL, but will be trying their ENIG very soon. I do have some products which are 2 mil copper that they have done well.
But as you said they only go up to 2mm. I don't think I've ever ordered anything but 1.6.
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U&I Quickturn, who we found through PCBShopper, can do that spec from their standard order form. They're not the cheapest, but they are well suited to quick-turn (how surprising!) medium-spec jobs, where by "medium-spec" I mean the jobs that JLCPCB won't touch, but you still don't have to have a back-and-forth with the fab house before they'll even agree to price it. And the quality is excellent.
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Just wondering why you think you need 2 oz copper. For adhesion? How much current will be in your traces? High voltages for tubes sure, but surely not as high current as lower voltage circuits?
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It's been a while since I've done any power amplifier design (like around 30 years)... So the following might be out in left field:
Even a 25W audio amplifier would need over 3A@8 Ohms. Plus if you think about it, if the output impedance is 8 ohms, which means that trace resistance is going to be fairly critical since even with an ohm or so you'd be losing 1/9 of your output voltage just to trace resistance. 4 Ohms is common as well which even makes it worse.
On the other hand, there is the possibility of an output transformer which would change the above equations depending on the turn ratio.
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Just wondering why you think you need 2 oz copper. For adhesion? How much current will be in your traces? High voltages for tubes sure, but surely not as high current as lower voltage circuits?
There's plenty of current in a guitar amp circuit, but my desire for 2oz or higher is mostly for adhesion, durability, and overkill. I am aware that if the manufacturer sucks it won't help much.
It's been a while since I've done any power amplifier design (like around 30 years)... So the following might be out in left field:
Even a 25W audio amplifier would need over 3A@8 Ohms. Plus if you think about it, if the output impedance is 8 ohms, which means that trace resistance is going to be fairly critical since even with an ohm or so you'd be losing 1/9 of your output voltage just to trace resistance. 4 Ohms is common as well which even makes it worse.
On the other hand, there is the possibility of an output transformer which would change the above equations depending on the turn ratio.
The tube sockets and output transformer connections are all off board. This circuit has a 4/8/16 ohm switch, 16 ohm being ideal as it uses the full coil.
Thanks,
Josh
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Assuming use of currently available coupons, 4 of the 5 remaining brands all range from $430 to $500 shipped for 30 boards with the same specs.
Bittele (7pcb.com) $480, PCBcart.com $443, PCBGOGO $428, 5PCB.com $494.
I would love to hear some opinions/experiences regarding those companies specifically.
Thanks,
Josh
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I just heard back from hitechpcb.com (aka hitechcircuits.com), and they quoted $288 with shipping for 30 with the same specs. Does anybody have experience with them?
Thanks,
Josh
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One note for you:
A thicker board isn't necessarily more reliable. I was looking for an article on this, but here's a brief quote from an electronic design article I did find:
Thicker boards are less flexible, creating greater stresses in solder joints as the temperature changes.
My possibly faulty recollection is that part of the reason for the "standard" thickness of board is it's a good balance between flexible enough to bend a bit to alleviate temperature change stresses but ridgid enough not to cause failures due to the flex of the board due to other effects. There's a whole design for reliability article somewhere which goes over some of this.
I figured you needed this as there were heavy things on the board. If the tubes and transformer is off the board, then maybe a standard board will not only work, but be more reliable, depending on the stresses.
Likewise, 2oz copper is not necessarily better than 1oz in every case.
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One note for you:
A thicker board isn't necessarily more reliable. I was looking for an article on this, but here's a brief quote from an electronic design article I did find:
Thicker boards are less flexible, creating greater stresses in solder joints as the temperature changes.
My possibly faulty recollection is that part of the reason for the "standard" thickness of board is it's a good balance between flexible enough to bend a bit to alleviate temperature change stresses but ridgid enough not to cause failures due to the flex of the board due to other effects. There's a whole design for reliability article somewhere which goes over some of this.
I figured you needed this as there were heavy things on the board. If the tubes and transformer is off the board, then maybe a standard board will not only work, but be more reliable, depending on the stresses.
Likewise, 2oz copper is not necessarily better than 1oz in every case.
This is for a guitar amp, and will be mounted in a strong metal chassis. There will also be Keystone 1509-4 turrets, which use 3.2mm boards. Yes, I could get shorter turret bases, but then the thickness of the board doesn't instill confidence. 2mm would be the minimum, but with novices manhandling these, I don't trust anything thinner than 3mm. If it was just me using them, I'd probably be fine with the 2mm.
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PCBGOGO = 3PCB = PCBway.
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My favorite fab is WellPCB. They are not the cheapest, but the quality of their boards is above and beyond of anyone else, which is why I absolutely don't mind paying a bit extra. They offer affordable 6+ layer boards with custom stackup and controlled impedance, 3/3 mil traces and down to 0.15 mm via holes. Nobody else is even close to their price-to-quality ratio.
Not sure what are you going on about thick boards and heavy copper. But I never required anything heavier than 35 um copper, as narrow traces and small vias are much more important for me than current carrying capacity.
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My favorite fab is WellPCB. They are not the cheapest, but the quality of their boards is above and beyond of anyone else, which is why I absolutely don't mind paying a bit extra. They offer affordable 6+ layer boards with custom stackup and controlled impedance, 3/3 mil traces and down to 0.15 mm via holes. Nobody else is even close to their price-to-quality ratio.
Not sure what are you going on about thick boards and heavy copper. But I never required anything heavier than 35 um copper, as narrow traces and small vias are much more important for me than current carrying capacity.
Oddly enough, since I can't get 2oz Cu to work, they're actually the cheapest. On a smaller PCB I designed, they're about the same as JLC but I can get the (I assume) slightly thicker ENIG from wellpcb. Interesting!
I added a couple mounting holes in the middle of the bigger board, so I'm not as concerned if I go down to 2.4 or 2.0mm.
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PCBWAY---- are not the cheapest and communication is a bit hard but they have a lot of options and quality is very good. Made several 4 layer 2oz board without an issue. Offer full assembly
Bitelle----- are very friendly and can offer custom stackup with controlled impedance. Calculations done with Polar's instrument for trace geometry provided without extra charge. Offer full assembly
Advanced circuits--- again not cheap but good quality made in the US. offer full assembly
JLCPCB---- good quality, never had an issue. Very fast. Made some huge boards (250mmX250mm) with hundreds of components without an issue. Offer partial assembly
Just my 2 cents but 2mm is thick enough for most design. standard is 1.6mm
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Oddly enough, since I can't get 2oz Cu to work, they're actually the cheapest. On a smaller PCB I designed, they're about the same as JLC but I can get the (I assume) slightly thicker ENIG from wellpcb. Interesting!
Sorry, but it's not even close. JLCPCB's soldermask burns off when you touch it with a soldering iron, while the one used by WellPCB is the toughest one I've ever seen. I had to scrape off a bit of it to bodge some wires in, and it turns out to be much harder than I expected.
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Oddly enough, since I can't get 2oz Cu to work, they're actually the cheapest. On a smaller PCB I designed, they're about the same as JLC but I can get the (I assume) slightly thicker ENIG from wellpcb. Interesting!
Sorry, but it's not even close. JLCPCB's soldermask burns off when you touch it with a soldering iron, while the one used by WellPCB is the toughest one I've ever seen. I had to scrape off a bit of it to bodge some wires in, and it turns out to be much harder than I expected.
How does wellpcb compare to ourpcb.com for you? I only see ourpcb on your blog.
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Wish they had stencil service. Asked for it for some time but still not offered. Their boards are made by Uniwell Circuits which is one of the best in China.
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Wish they had stencil service. Asked for it for some time but still not offered. Their boards are made by Uniwell Circuits which is one of the best in China.
Which company are you referring to?
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How does wellpcb compare to ourpcb.com for you? I only see ourpcb on your blog.
WellPCB and OurPCB are two frontends of the same company.
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Which company are you referring to?
WellPCB/OurPCB. Last time I asked, they quoted me some ridiculous prices for stencils, so now I just order them at JLCPCB, trying to time the order such that it arrives at the same time as PCBs.
I still don't understand why are you so focused on thicker boards, while the industry trend is going the opposite way - towards thinner boards and thinner copper foils. Most my 6 layer boards are 1.2 mm thick as opposed to "conventional" 1.6 mm, because that just works out better for the stackup I need for my projects. If you going 8 layers and above, then - yea, it's not very realistic to squeeze so many layers in a 1.2 mm thin board. Still, for 1.6 mm thickness you can go up to 10 layers with no problems, and depending on your stackup and materials of choice, even 12 layers might be possible. Same goes for the copper thickness - it's not uncommon to see 12 um or even 9 um thick copper layers in super-fine detail high-end PCBs. Deficit of current carrying capacity for such thin layers is compensated for by having multiple power planes.
WellPCB/OurPCB is the only fab I know of that offers custom stackup option at no extra charge! Which is why they are great for hi-speed boards with weird-ass requirements for stackups. They also do full impedance calculations and send you a report, as well as final production Gerders for approval before they send it off to production. And they include PCB coupon/microsection with PCBs as well as full report (including impedance tests). Great service for great price!
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WellPCB/OurPCB. Last time I asked, they quoted me some ridiculous prices for stencils, so now I just order them at JLCPCB, trying to time the order such that it arrives at the same time as PCBs.
I still don't understand why are you so focused on thicker boards, while the industry trend is going the opposite way - towards thinner boards and thinner copper foils. Most my 6 layer boards are 1.2 mm thick as opposed to "conventional" 1.6 mm, because that just works out better for the stackup I need for my projects. If you going 8 layers and above, then - yea, it's not very realistic to squeeze so many layers in a 1.2 mm thin board. Still, for 1.6 mm thickness you can go up to 10 layers with no problems, and depending on your stackup and materials of choice, even 12 layers might be possible. Same goes for the copper thickness - it's not uncommon to see 12 um or even 9 um thick copper layers in super-fine detail high-end PCBs. Deficit of current carrying capacity for such thin layers is compensated for by having multiple power planes.
I said it above. Thicker boards are more durable when novices are manhandling them. This is a project PCB I'll most likely be selling as a kit. If it's thin and flimsy bad things are more likely to happen.
It's also a guitar amp project. Thin boards for guitar amps are generally a bad thing. 2mm is fine if it was just me, but I don't trust it enough to sell it to other people to build. Especially with no previous experience with the pcb manufacturer. I'll probably do something stupid like stress test the boards and ruin a few of them. That outcome will determine if I reorder from the same company or not.
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I said it above. Thicker boards are more durable when novices are manhandling them.
That's some strange argument. If someone manages to break 1.6mm PCB, there are much bigger issues than breaking PCB. Unless PCB is long and narrow, it's hard to achieve even if you try. Also thicker PCB causes other problems, such as component leads being not long enough.
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I said it above. Thicker boards are more durable when novices are manhandling them. This is a project PCB I'll most likely be selling as a kit. If it's thin and flimsy bad things are more likely to happen.
It's also a guitar amp project. Thin boards for guitar amps are generally a bad thing. 2mm is fine if it was just me, but I don't trust it enough to sell it to other people to build. Especially with no previous experience with the pcb manufacturer. I'll probably do something stupid like stress test the boards and ruin a few of them. That outcome will determine if I reorder from the same company or not.
I think you are just blowing this way out of proportion. You will have component failures due to bends waaay before the board's breaking point. Also - have you actually tried breaking 1.6 mm board with your bare hands? As someone who did, I will tell you it's not very easy unless the board's geometry is conducive to that (long and narrow), or it's mechanical design is particularly bad (long lines of large holes, odd shape with obvious weak points).
Finally - if you are so sure that they are going to wrestle with PCB, why don't you also assume they will just break parts, which usually are much easier to break than PCB itself?
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That's some strange argument. If someone manages to break 1.6mm PCB, there are much bigger issues than breaking PCB. Unless PCB is long and narrow, it's hard to achieve even if you try. Also thicker PCB causes other problems, such as component leads being not long enough.
1. Boards are flexible, thinner boards are more flexible.
2. This is a GUITAR AMP project. The 2 layer board is 308mm x 96mm. It will be suspended inside a guitar amp chassis.
3. If the manufacturer isn't awesome, flexing the board can cause traces to lift, and other damage. I don't have much faith in any of these manufacturers without trying them out, and all of the ones with feedback have mixed feedback.
4. These circuits are typically built on turret boards. The leads will not be an issue, and even the 3.2mm thick boards will actually open up more options regarding available components.
5. It being a guitar amp, the circuit has flexible options. This means working and reworking. People, especially novices, can be heavy handed when adding or removing components. Thinner boards or copper will not be forgiving. I don't want extra headaches because the board wasn't durable enough.
Thanks,
Josh
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I think you are just blowing this way out of proportion. You will have component failures due to bends waaay before the board's breaking point. Also - have you actually tried breaking 1.6 mm board with your bare hands? As someone who did, I will tell you it's not very easy unless the board's geometry is conducive to that (long and narrow), or it's mechanical design is particularly bad (long lines of large holes, odd shape with obvious weak points).
Finally - if you are so sure that they are going to wrestle with PCB, why don't you also assume they will just break parts, which usually are much easier to break than PCB itself?
You proved my point. If the boards flex too much, things on them can break. I never said anything about the boards themselves breaking, that would take some intentional effort. Unless the manufacturer super sucks.
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You proved my point. If the boards flex too much, things on them can break. I never said anything about the boards themselves breaking, that would take some intentional effort. Unless the manufacturer super sucks.
Flexing will only break SMD parts. I doubt there are many people who can solder SMD yet are dumb enough to start bending the board.
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You proved my point. If the boards flex too much, things on them can break. I never said anything about the boards themselves breaking, that would take some intentional effort. Unless the manufacturer super sucks.
Flexing will only break SMD parts. I doubt there are many people who can solder SMD yet are dumb enough to start bending the board.
Your opinion holds a lot of faith in the manufacturers. Traces can lift. Pads can lift. Shit happens, and I'd like to avoid it.
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1. Boards are flexible, thinner boards are more flexible.
Even 5 mm boards will still flex. You just can't eliminate it no matter how think your board is. So if you design you "rigid" boards to be flexible, you designing in the failure.
2. This is a GUITAR AMP project. The 2 layer board is 308mm x 96mm. It will be suspended inside a guitar amp chassis.
Here is a big mistake in system design. Your device should always be designed to eliminate the flex of PCB as much as possible. Design the case to have supports under all buttons, knobs, pedals and any other things that users are going to be interacting with, or - much better solution - use off-PCB case-mounted controls. This will completely alleviate the problem, and actually will give you more flexibility for your case design, as board can be very small (typically user interface controls and connectors take a big chunk of space on modern PCBs) and so you can fit it just about anywhere in the case.
Besides - what the hell do you have in that amp to have such insanely large board? You can fit entire computer on a board half that size!
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Here is a big mistake in system design. Your device should always be designed to eliminate the flex of PCB as much as possible. Design the case to have supports under all buttons, knobs, pedals and any other things that users are going to be interacting with, or - much better solution - use off-PCB case-mounted controls. This will completely alleviate the problem, and actually will give you more flexibility for your case design, as board can be very small (typically user interface controls and connectors take a big chunk of space on modern PCBs) and so you can fit it just about anywhere in the case.
Besides - what the hell do you have in that amp to have such insanely large board? You can fit entire computer on a board half that size!
There's nothing wrong with my design, and it is well supported. That doesn't mean I need to take risks with the board itself. By your response I can tell you don't understand guitar circuits, and that's fine. Please stay on topic instead.
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By your response I can tell you don't understand guitar circuits, and that's fine. Please stay on topic instead.
Of course I understand by the virtue of being an ex-guitar player myself, and having built several myself. It's the usual audiophoolery for the most part - 99% of marketing BS and 1% of reality.
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They both have valid points, you are making some pretty arbitrary and unnecessary requirements for your PCB and then applying further arbitrary properties to your potential suppliers, based on some random comments you have seen in some forums. Buy your boards from the sources that are interested in making one to your specifications, as you have seen plenty of the low price high volume online frontend suppliers only do very standard requirements and thicknesses.
At work one of the things we make high end is£££ HiFi, so high power A/B amps using 1.6mm FR4 from PCBWay. If your traces or pads are pulling off the PCB either the PCB is ghetto terrible (rare) or your mechanical design SUCKS and your're doing it wrong.
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At work one of the things we make high end is£££ HiFi, so high power A/B amps using 1.6mm FR4 from PCBWay. If your traces or pads are pulling off the PCB either the PCB is ghetto terrible (rare) or your mechanical design SUCKS and your're doing it wrong.
That was the point I was trying to get across. I can't remember ever hearing of mechanical strength as a hard requirement for any of my boards, even those who were meant to work in rather aggressive environments. Mech guys always went an extra mile to make sure as little stress as possible ever reaches PCB.
That said, guitar gear is often operated by foot, so I kind of get where OP is coming from, but like I said, this is a problem for mech guys, not PCB engineers.
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this is a problem for mech guys, not PCB engineers.
The only thing that matters to me is that it doesn't become a problem for me.
BTW- I'm very likely to go with wellpcb as they do 2.4mm, and that's close enough for this at their pricing. It's not as thick as I wanted, but the pricing on their website was really good. I've been waiting for an email back with 2oz copper on the quote.
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BTW- I'm very likely to go with wellpcb as they do 2.4mm, and that's close enough for this at their pricing. It's not as thick as I wanted, but the pricing on their website was really good. I've been waiting for an email back with 2oz copper on the quote.
You can select 2oz option in their online quote ("2oz for all layers" in "Finished copper:" section), it seems to add a $10 to final price. Or you asked quote for larger batch than what their quoting system provides?
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BTW- I'm very likely to go with wellpcb as they do 2.4mm, and that's close enough for this at their pricing. It's not as thick as I wanted, but the pricing on their website was really good. I've been waiting for an email back with 2oz copper on the quote.
You can select 2oz option in their online quote ("2oz for all layers" in "Finished copper:" section), it seems to add a $10 to final price. Or you asked quote for larger batch than what their quoting system provides?
I don't know what it is about either the browsers I tried, or the spec combinations I've tried, but their website won't quote me with 2oz Cu. It keeps farting an error about needing the TG170 or halogen free boards, even when I preselect those. $10 more would be fine obviously. ;)
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I don't know what it is about either the browsers I tried, or the spec combinations I've tried, but their website won't quote me with 2oz Cu. It keeps farting an error about needing the TG170 or halogen free boards, even when I preselect those. $10 more would be fine obviously. ;)
This is what I got (see in attachment). I use Chrome Version 87.0.4280.88 (Official Build) (64-bit). Sorry, I got your numbers for size slightly wrong, but the final price should be in a ballpark.
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I don't know what it is about either the browsers I tried, or the spec combinations I've tried, but their website won't quote me with 2oz Cu. It keeps farting an error about needing the TG170 or halogen free boards, even when I preselect those. $10 more would be fine obviously. ;)
This is what I got (see in attachment). I use Chrome Version 87.0.4280.88 (Official Build) (64-bit). Sorry, I got your numbers for size slightly wrong, but the final price should be in a ballpark.
Oh, sweet! I'm also using Chrome. They must have fixed it, I complained a couple days ago. $184 for 20 or $234 for 30. Not bad!
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Oh, sweet! I'm also using Chrome. They must have fixed it, I complained a couple days ago.
They rolled out a new quote system just recently, so it's not a surprise that it broke down at some point. BTW I liked their old system better because it also provided shipping cost estimates at the same time as PCB cost, which was more convenient as the number you get was closer to "out-the-door" price you will actually have to pay (there will still be a sales tax and possibly brokerage fees to pay before you get a full landed cost).
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They rolled out a new quote system just recently, so it's not a surprise that it broke down at some point. BTW I liked their old system better because it also provided shipping cost estimates at the same time as PCB cost, which was more convenient as the number you get was closer to "out-the-door" price you will actually have to pay (there will still be a sales tax and possibly brokerage fees to pay before you get a full landed cost).
Yeah, I went to the checkout screen to see the real prices. Not toooo bad. $22 bs fee, and about $97 shipping I think it was, for 30 of those big boards, and 100 of a different small board...total was under $500, which is better than a lot of the quotes I got for just the 30 boards.
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USA PCB Manufacturers
https://www.pcbdirectory.com/manufacturers?country=United%20States&order_by=reviews&sort_order=desc (https://www.pcbdirectory.com/manufacturers?country=United%20States&order_by=reviews&sort_order=desc)
http://www.electronicsandyou.com/blog/top-pcb-manufacturers-in-usa.html (http://www.electronicsandyou.com/blog/top-pcb-manufacturers-in-usa.html)
https://www.thomasnet.com/articles/top-suppliers/pcb-manufacturers-suppliers/ (https://www.thomasnet.com/articles/top-suppliers/pcb-manufacturers-suppliers/)
https://camptechii.com/2019-top-4-printed-circuit-board-manufacturers-north-america/ (https://camptechii.com/2019-top-4-printed-circuit-board-manufacturers-north-america/)
https://www.sfcircuits.com/pcb-production-capabilities (https://www.sfcircuits.com/pcb-production-capabilities)
https://www.4pcb.com/pcb-capabilities.html (https://www.4pcb.com/pcb-capabilities.html)
https://www.pcbunlimited.com/capabilities (https://www.pcbunlimited.com/capabilities)
http://www.synergisepcb.com/capabilities/ (http://www.synergisepcb.com/capabilities/)
https://www.zaxis.net/manufacturing/ (https://www.zaxis.net/manufacturing/)
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They rolled out a new quote system just recently, so it's not a surprise that it broke down at some point.
Wellpcb can do 3.2mm also. I don't know why it's not on their quote system. It was about $38 more for 30 boards compared to 2.4mm...but of course the shipping got more expensive, though that didn't seem very proportional.
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Vinatronic has a network of shops they can see which one fits your needs
https://vinatronic.com/
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This isn't very inspiring for wellpcb:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-EjxoT-Dt8A&t=4230s (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-EjxoT-Dt8A&t=4230s)
Edit: I asked my sales rep about this and she said "We already solved this problem from last year. If our PCB has any quality issues, we are willing to make the new PCBs for you and ship them to you for free."
I think I'm going to try them out. They're about $130 less shipped compared to 7pcb, and they have matte blue which looks nice, and doesn't seem to have the contrast issues regular blue has.
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There was a bit of a wait due to a manufacturer error, but I finally got the boards, and they look great.
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/manufacture/pcb-manufacturer-recommendations/?action=dlattach;attach=1147414;image)
Thanks,
Josh
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The boards look nice, but there's a tolerance issue. .6mm leads won't fit in .8mm holes.
The goofy thing is that they want me to photograph this phenomenon. Here's a photo of a capacitor NOT attached to the board. Here it is not attached to 5 more locations. ::)
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I'm really disappointed with this order so far. They're really inconsistent with the hole sizes. Some of the .8mm holes look like they're half as big as they should be. I emailed my rep, I'll see what she says. Right now, I don't recommend them.
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Oddly enough, since I can't get 2oz Cu to work, they're actually the cheapest. On a smaller PCB I designed, they're about the same as JLC but I can get the (I assume) slightly thicker ENIG from wellpcb. Interesting!
Sorry, but it's not even close. JLCPCB's soldermask burns off when you touch it with a soldering iron, while the one used by WellPCB is the toughest one I've ever seen. I had to scrape off a bit of it to bodge some wires in, and it turns out to be much harder than I expected.
What are you soldering with, a red hot scalpel? At work, we've had hundreds of boards made by JLCPCB, and solder mask durability has not been an issue at all — and this is at a vocational training center, where some of the apprentices are, well, less skilled than others and end up being a bit rough...
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What are you soldering with, a red hot scalpel? At work, we've had hundreds of boards made by JLCPCB, and solder mask durability has not been an issue at all — and this is at a vocational training center, where some of the apprentices are, well, less skilled than others and end up being a bit rough...
I like JLC also. I got some smaller boards from them that didn't need to be thicker than 1.6mm. They were very fast, and I like their ordering process / status updates. It was a much better experience than what I'm going through with wellpcb right now. Much better quality control too. Muuuuuuuuuuch better.
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What are you soldering with, a red hot scalpel? At work, we've had hundreds of boards made by JLCPCB, and solder mask durability has not been an issue at all — and this is at a vocational training center, where some of the apprentices are, well, less skilled than others and end up being a bit rough...
I like JLC also. I got some smaller boards from them that didn't need to be thicker than 1.6mm. They were very fast, and I like their ordering process / status updates. It was a much better experience than what I'm going through with wellpcb right now. Much better quality control too. Muuuuuuuuuuch better.
Sorry, but it's a complete nonsense and BS. JLC quality control sucks. I often see scratches or fingerprints embedded in solder mask. Had PCB with several tracks broken too. Solderability sucks for both Lead-free HASL and ENIG, the worst I've seen. Not every good solder wire or solder paste works on them acceptably, needs to contain quite active flux to decently cover pads and flow into holes. Probably you'll be fine with leaded solder paste and solder wire as they flow way better than lead-free. From wellpcb the only bad thing I've seen were occasional scratches.
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Sorry, but it's a complete nonsense and BS. JLC quality control sucks. I often see scratches or fingerprints embedded in solder mask. Had PCB with several tracks broken too. Solderability sucks for both Lead-free HASL and ENIG, the worst I've seen. Not every good solder wire or solder paste works on them acceptably, needs to contain quite active flux to decently cover pads and flow into holes. Probably you'll be fine with leaded solder paste and solder wire as they flow way better than lead-free. From wellpcb the only bad thing I've seen were occasional scratches.
No, not nonsense or BS, a very different experience than yours. My boards from JLC were excellent. Great solder mask (I tried burning it, I couldn't within any reasonable amount of time). Great ENIG solderability, great hole tolerances, symmetry, etc...
Solderability on the boards I got from wellpcb seems fine, but the quality of craftsmanship is mediocre. The holes aren't ROUND, they're not symmetrical, they're not the same sizes on the same components, the holes aren't even centered on half the pads! .6mm and .54mm leads won't fit into .8mm holes. +/-0.075mm is their tolerance. Last I checked, that's still bigger than those leads.
I'm going to give them a chance to make it right, but so far I have little confidence in seeing that happen. I hope they do.
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What are you soldering with, a red hot scalpel? At work, we've had hundreds of boards made by JLCPCB, and solder mask durability has not been an issue at all — and this is at a vocational training center, where some of the apprentices are, well, less skilled than others and end up being a bit rough...
I suggest you reduce you temper a bit. I solder with Pace ADS200, one the best soldering irons out there. And JLCPCB quality has always been a lottery for me - sometimes it more-or-less good, other times it totally sucks. And that is with 4 layer boards as it's been a while since I used 2 layer boards.
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No, not nonsense or BS, a very different experience than yours. My boards from JLC were excellent. Great solder mask (I tried burning it, I couldn't within any reasonable amount of time). Great ENIG solderability, great hole tolerances, symmetry, etc...
Yes it is BS. Non-uniform quality is worse than constantly-mediocre one because you never know what are you gonna get.
Solderability on the boards I got from wellpcb seems fine, but the quality of craftsmanship is mediocre. The holes aren't ROUND, they're not symmetrical, they're not the same sizes on the same components, the holes aren't even centered on half the pads! .6mm and .54mm leads won't fit into .8mm holes. +/-0.075mm is their tolerance. Last I checked, that's still bigger than those leads.
I'm going to give them a chance to make it right, but so far I have little confidence in seeing that happen. I hope they do.
I've done well over 50 orders with WellPCB, 2, 4 and 6 layer ones, and every single one so far has been perfect. And we're talking about the boards with DDR3, 1.5 Gpbs HDMI and 5 Gbps USB 3.0 interfaces, which are very picky about the quality of the board (and require controlled impedance). So I don't know what happened in your case, but the story sounds very suspect as it goes contrary to my own experience over last 3 years.
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No, not nonsense or BS, a very different experience than yours. My boards from JLC were excellent. Great solder mask (I tried burning it, I couldn't within any reasonable amount of time). Great ENIG solderability, great hole tolerances, symmetry, etc...
Yes it is BS. Non-uniform quality is worse than constantly-mediocre one because you never know what are you gonna get.
Solderability on the boards I got from wellpcb seems fine, but the quality of craftsmanship is mediocre. The holes aren't ROUND, they're not symmetrical, they're not the same sizes on the same components, the holes aren't even centered on half the pads! .6mm and .54mm leads won't fit into .8mm holes. +/-0.075mm is their tolerance. Last I checked, that's still bigger than those leads.
I'm going to give them a chance to make it right, but so far I have little confidence in seeing that happen. I hope they do.
I've done well over 50 orders with WellPCB, 2, 4 and 6 layer ones, and every single one so far has been perfect. And we're talking about the boards with DDR3, 1.5 Gpbs HDMI and 5 Gbps USB 3.0 interfaces, which are very picky about the quality of the board (and require controlled impedance). So I don't know what happened in your case, but the story sounds very suspect as it goes contrary to my own experience over last 3 years.
Good for you?
I'm not sure if this makes sense to you or not, but you could have 1000 good orders with them, and that doesn't make my bad order with them any better. My experience with wellpcb is bad so far. I'm going to give them the opportunity to change that, as I said. But that doesn't change the fact that 1. they had to remake my order because their tech screwed up (before they ever shipped anything to me, delaying my order a couple weeks), and 2. the replacement order is still bad.
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I've used a number of vendors over they years and have yet to find one that has been 100% rock solid. Most recently, I have been using JLC - approximately 400 boards spread over about 25 orders. Their quality is definitely variable. On some boards the via annular rings were very clearly not concentric with the holes. Their solder masks are sometimes sloppy. Their plating of THs is variable, sometimes pretty darn thick. I have gotten boards where the solder mask burns off. Let us not forget the rotated octagonal pads. But on the whole I will keep using them because none of those issues have meant an unusable or unsaleable board. And the price is right.
Also, they seem to be trying to improve. I've noticed lately that their HASL quality is much better - almost mirror like.
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What are you soldering with, a red hot scalpel? At work, we've had hundreds of boards made by JLCPCB, and solder mask durability has not been an issue at all — and this is at a vocational training center, where some of the apprentices are, well, less skilled than others and end up being a bit rough...
I like JLC also. I got some smaller boards from them that didn't need to be thicker than 1.6mm. They were very fast, and I like their ordering process / status updates. It was a much better experience than what I'm going through with wellpcb right now. Much better quality control too. Muuuuuuuuuuch better.
Sorry, but it's a complete nonsense and BS. JLC quality control sucks. I often see scratches or fingerprints embedded in solder mask. Had PCB with several tracks broken too. Solderability sucks for both Lead-free HASL and ENIG, the worst I've seen. Not every good solder wire or solder paste works on them acceptably, needs to contain quite active flux to decently cover pads and flow into holes. Probably you'll be fine with leaded solder paste and solder wire as they flow way better than lead-free. From wellpcb the only bad thing I've seen were occasional scratches.
We have yet to encounter a bad PCB from JLCPCB, nor have we had any solderability issues, whether with HASL, lead-free HASL, or ENIG. We use lead free solder. No problems with low-temp lead-free (SnBi) solder paste, whose flux is less active, either.
I’m not saying your experiences didn’t happen, just that they are NOT the norm, and that it’s not “BS” when someone didn’t have the same bad experiences as you.
What are you soldering with, a red hot scalpel? At work, we've had hundreds of boards made by JLCPCB, and solder mask durability has not been an issue at all — and this is at a vocational training center, where some of the apprentices are, well, less skilled than others and end up being a bit rough...
I suggest you reduce you temper a bit. I solder with Pace ADS200, one the best soldering irons out there. And JLCPCB quality has always been a lottery for me - sometimes it more-or-less good, other times it totally sucks. And that is with 4 layer boards as it's been a while since I used 2 layer boards.
Temper? Where’d you see anger? Sarcasm, yes. Anger, no.
Regardless, I guess you didn’t understand my comment anyway. It wasn’t a critique of your soldering iron, but rather of whether you were using a very, very high temperature.
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We have yet to encounter a bad PCB from JLCPCB, nor have we had any solderability issues, whether with HASL, lead-free HASL, or ENIG. We use lead free solder. No problems with low-temp lead-free (SnBi) solder paste, whose flux is less active, either.
Say their ENIG does not work well with Loctite GC10 solder paste. Some boards are worse than other. Solder tend not wet the whole pad but concentrate towards component terminal. Worse than what you would expect from OSP. Soldering with SnCu0.7 solder solder wire sucks as well it just does not want to flow decently. You can solder but it flows slowly. SAC305 with a bit activ-ish flux works well. The same solder worked excellently on boards from other suppliers. Lead free HASL is several times worse. Haven't seen any batch that would solder really well. Some boards okay-ish but other from the same batch really suck. Low price and production speed are the only good things about them IMHO.
No problems with low-temp lead-free (SnBi) solder paste, whose flux is less active, either.
It depends on solder alloy a lot, besides flux. Some alloys wet better/flow faster than others. I don't use SnBi so have no idea how well it flows. But SnPb runs circles around SAC, and especially SnCu in this regard.
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We have yet to encounter a bad PCB from JLCPCB, nor have we had any solderability issues, whether with HASL, lead-free HASL, or ENIG. We use lead free solder. No problems with low-temp lead-free (SnBi) solder paste, whose flux is less active, either.
Say their ENIG does not work well with Loctite GC10 solder paste. Some boards are worse than other. Solder tend not wet the whole pad but concentrate towards component terminal. Worse than what you would expect from OSP. Soldering with SnCu0.7 solder solder wire sucks as well it just does not want to flow decently. You can solder but it flows slowly. SAC305 with a bit activ-ish flux works well. The same solder worked excellently on boards from other suppliers. Lead free HASL is several times worse. Haven't seen any batch that would solder really well. Some boards okay-ish but other from the same butch really suck. Low price and production speed are the only good things about them IMHO.
Well, repeating your experiences doesn’t change that I (and gazillions of others) haven’t had any of those problems.
As I said, at work, we’ve ordered hundreds of boards from them in the past year, in leaded and Pb-free HASL as well as ENIG, and none have given us any trouble. We’ve used SAC305, SnCu0.7, Sn63Pb37, and Sn42/Bi57.6/Ag0.4. Board solderability just hasn’t been a problem whatsoever.
The only thing I’ve found JLCPCB to be somewhat unpredictable about is silkscreen sharpness. Some batches had visibly lower resolution silkscreen than other batches, even when ordered and shipped together. (I would chalk the difference up to true silkscreening vs inkjet, but I don’t think any of our board orders was big enough that it would have gotten true silkscreening.) Not a problem except for absolutely tiny text well under 1mm tall.
No problems with low-temp lead-free (SnBi) solder paste, whose flux is less active, either.
It depends on solder alloy a lot, besides flux. Some alloys wet better/flow faster than others. I don't use SnBi so have no idea how well it flows. But SnPb runs circles around SAC, and especially SnCu in this regard.
That’s all true, generally speaking. But mine wasn’t a comment about Pb-free low-temp solder in general, but about its compatibility with JLCPCB boards. In that, it performed just as well as leaded, despite the lower temperature meaning that the flux isn’t as active.
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Well, repeating your experiences doesn’t change that I (and gazillions of others) haven’t had any of those problems.
Someone had seen it as well, do not remember who. As to why people don't see this. Either they do not inspect under microscope, don't care or do not use lead-free solder.
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In that, it performed just as well as leaded, despite the lower temperature meaning that the flux isn’t as active.
Flux is made for certain working temperature. Lower temperature does not mean less active flux or that it will work better at higher temperature.
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Well, repeating your experiences doesn’t change that I (and gazillions of others) haven’t had any of those problems.
Someone had seen it as well, do not remember who. As to why people don't see this. Either they do not inspect under microscope, don't care or do not use lead-free solder.
We do care, we do use lead-free, and we do inspect under a stereo microscope. (It’s education, so we have to inspect each student’s work.)
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Regardless, I guess you didn’t understand my comment anyway. It wasn’t a critique of your soldering iron, but rather of whether you were using a very, very high temperature.
Well the same exact iron temperature works just fine with any other board, except some from JLCPCB. WellPCB's solder mask is especially durable - it's not easy to scratch it off even when I intend to do so.
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Regardless, I guess you didn’t understand my comment anyway. It wasn’t a critique of your soldering iron, but rather of whether you were using a very, very high temperature.
Well the same exact iron temperature works just fine with any other board, except some from JLCPCB. WellPCB's solder mask is especially durable - it's not easy to scratch it off even when I intend to do so.
Well that’s the thing — that’s exactly how our JLCPCB boards have been: durable solder mask. (We have boards with intentional mistakes so students learn to do bodges, including exposing a bit of trace to solder on a bodge. If anything, they have trouble removing the solder mask!)
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We have boards with intentional mistakes so students learn to do bodges, including exposing a bit of trace to solder on a bodge.
Brilliant idea :-+
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We have boards with intentional mistakes so students learn to do bodges, including exposing a bit of trace to solder on a bodge.
Brilliant idea :-+
And sometimes we accidentally add bonus errors that need fixing, too! ;D
I work at a vocational training center. Apprentices (employed elsewhere) go to school for the theory, and to us a couple of weeks a year for hands-on training. Over the course of the 4-year apprenticeship, they do hands-on classes on assembly (soldering, crimping, wiring, rudimentary metalworking, etc), “measurement” (using meters, scopes, and generators to do things like I-V curves, Bode plots of RC filters, transistor circuits, series/parallel resistance, digital logic, etc), C programming, hardware troubleshooting, and various others.
As an American (where vocations have been neglected for decades) I continue to be impressed by the Swiss apprenticeship system. The electronics apprenticeship program is quite rigorous.
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It looks like wellpcb is going to try and make this right. I sent the design back with oversized holes so it shouldn't be an issue. Remaking the boards may get delayed by Chinese New Year, but they said they'll try and expedite them.
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I got the replacements, and so far, they look great. I've also received a second order from JLC, and I like both companies. JLC seems to cost less, and still make good stuff. I'll keep using both companies until one of them pisses me off. lol
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Thumbs down for WellPCB.
I paid the extra for 48hr express service, it's now been 10 days and the boards havent been posted yet.
Very limited communication too. Ive had to ask for updates every step of the way (I didnt even get a order confirmation email).
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China had their labor Day and Ching Ming festival holidays early in the month. If you place order around that period, pending orders will be even more.
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China had their labor Day and Ching Ming festival holidays early in the month. If you place order around that period, pending orders will be even more.
I did the same thing a few weeks ago, and they proactively contacted me to let me know the express service wasn't going to be available. The expedite fee was refunded immediately. Communication by email was immediate and professional as usual.
Just another anecdote to add to the pile, but I'm a happy camper. I've tried many low-cost Asian board houses, and WellPCB is the only one I consider worth sticking with.
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I still like both WellPCB and JLCPCB. I have ordered a bunch more boards from JLC, and I can see the inconsistency in the soldermask durability, but it's still worth it.
Thanks,
Josh
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I did the same thing a few weeks ago, and they proactively contacted me to let me know the express service wasn't going to be available. The expedite fee was refunded immediately. Communication by email was immediate and professional as usual.
It's strange that my experience has been completely the opposite :rant:
Do you always deal with the same support person? Bella?
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Well, I can't talk about others, but I've been using PCBway a lot lately, and they have done a GREAT job on boards going from easy to 4-layer but with moderate line/space tolerances. We've had at least a dozen designs run by them. Some were assembled by hand, most of the larger orders were run on our P&P machine. All the P&P boards were done with SAC305 solder.
For really demanding boards (6 layer, 5 mil spaces) we have used E-Teknet in Arizona, who owns their fab in China, but has their own QC people on site. They have done hundreds of board designs for us over the last 20 years or so, with practically zero defects. We went to PCBway due to the crazy low prices they offer. We probably will still give our 6-layer boards to E-Teknet.
Jon
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It's strange that my experience has been completely the opposite :rant:
Do you always deal with the same support person? Bella?
I usually receive email confirmation notices from Emma or Wendy (who I believe works for Emma.)
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Anyone else having problems with allpcb.com recently?
They increased the price of the an order after we had paid for it (populated PCB assy). It's now over a month late, with an unclear explanation as to why.
Meanwhile we placed a second order - again, they increased the price by 20% after we had paid for it.
Now my manager has lost confidence in them (and in me for recommending them :( ), and we're $1500 down with little confidence of seeing anything.
I understand that component prices are volatile at the moment, but we paid via their web portal within a day of them quoting.
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Anyone else having problems with allpcb.com recently?
They increased the price of the an order after we had paid for it (populated PCB assy). It's now over a month late, with an unclear explanation as to why.
Meanwhile we placed a second order - again, they increased the price by 20% after we had paid for it.
Now my manager has lost confidence in them (and in me for recommending them :( ), and we're $1500 down with little confidence of seeing anything.
I understand that component prices are volatile at the moment, but we paid via their web portal within a day of them quoting.
If it's a problem, I'm guessing you can file a claim with whatever payment method you used.
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In general, the instant quote that you get from the website is an approximate price or "estimated price" this is what I used to see with some other PCB manufacturers who have online quote system, then after reviewing the design they find out some extra charges required due to some specifications on the design so I advice you to check with allpcb if they do have a list for the "extra charges" and it is not forbidden to Email them asking about an explanation for this extra payments.
I hope that I understand your question well!
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Another vote for pcbway. I don't run a ton of boards through them... mostly 4-6 layer 1/16th inch stuff... but I've never had a problem and they're fast and cheap. Recently built a small (1.5x6") 4L board with ENIG finish - 5 boards delivered to the US in 8 days for $150. Also they've caught and fixed a few design issues over the years. I like to support the domestic manufacturers when I can, but the cost delta is just so high sometimes I need to go overseas.
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I have been buying PCBs from China for 20+ years, and have got through lots... they usually go bust every few years. Or just the only English-speaking person leaves, which amounts to the same thing because the company may as well then be on Jupiter.
Before that we were using Chinese via a UK "front man" but the prices were high. Of course the mfg name was always concealed from us but we once found out it was Kam Hing Electronics whose website was infected with a nasty virus for years and they never fixed it; eventually they vanished.
Before that I was using various UK firms but the quality was crap, and BBT was usually skipped if the end of the month was near.
Currently I am using Viasion https://www.viasion.com/ (https://www.viasion.com/) (ask for Tina) and they are very good. Good prices and good boards.
Previously I used Auspi https://www.auspi.cc/ (https://www.auspi.cc/) for some years and then discovered that they destroyed the BBT tooling (some $400 per board) after 12 months of no orders for that board, which was in their small print, but was quite outrageous. When I spoke to them about it I got the typical Chinese arrogant treatment, so I stopped using them (with tooling chucked out there is zero incentive to use the same company again) but they kept phoning up and asking for more business and simply did not understand that chucking out $400 BBT tooling is not really reasonable practice in the West!
JLCPCB for prototypes but would never use them for production due to lack of communication and basically typically modern-Chinese arrogant attitude.