Pick and Place Machine TVM802A / TVM802B

[FreezeSSC]

I have 76 different components per board.  The majority are smd 0603 with some 1206.

TVm802B has 48 feeders. Even if you manage to use them all and put some components in trays, you'll have to load the machine twice with such a board. Maybe you can get away by placing the less used components by hand. That depends on the number of boards of course. You'll have this problem with every machine and it is probably the reason your assembly house charges so much.
Usually it is possible to reduce the number of components: A pullup does not have to be 100k for example.

I do small runs (50 boards a year or less)

Hard to see how it would make sense doing that few in-house

have 76 different components per board.  The majority are smd 0603 with some 1206.

The first thing to look at is whether you can reduce that BOM. That would also save costs on subcontract assembly.

Thank you both, essentially my BOM is high because my PCB has a 16 channel analog front end.  I dont mind taking 2 passes to do the board I'm just hesitant because I have no experience in the assembly side of things, so I don't know if I'd be buying something with tons of issues or is not reliable. 

[AndyBig]

I dont mind taking 2 passes to do the board

Replacing almost all tapes in feeders is a rather long and boring procedure.

[rx8pilot]

I dont mind taking 2 passes to do the board

Replacing almost all tapes in feeders is a rather long and boring procedure.

It is a profit destroyer......

[coppice]

You only say:

I don't mind taking 2 passes to do the board

Because of the following:

I'm just hesitant because I have no experience in the assembly side of things, so I don't know if I'd be buying something with tons of issues or is not reliable.

When you have tried changing the feeders even a little more than is absolutely necessary you will probably think differently. It combines tedium, long hours, and a significant crushing of the soul.

[FreezeSSC]

Thank you all, I currently pay well over $100 per board so I was hoping this could maybe be a solution for me but I see i have more research to do. 

[jmelson]

Thank you all, I currently pay well over $100 per board so I was hoping this could maybe be a solution for me but I see i have more research to do.

At the cost of these machines, it COULD make sense to buy two of them, and have each one set up for half the parts.  That, of course, doubles the expense, but at $100/board X 50 boards, that could pay for itself in a couple years.  You are kind of on the dividing line about whether this is financially sensible, though.  I do about 15 different boards, some all digital, some largely analog, so just change over the machine for each job.  I run anywhere from 20 to 60 boards at one time, and many of these have parts on both sides, mostly decoupling caps on the back.  So, that is sort of two setups/board.  In my case, the full setup for one of my boards can take an hour or a little more, depending on number of different parts.  I have several boxes of passive component reels sorted by value, and just load up the feeders as needed, then set up the special parts (chips and semis).    My Philps CSM84 can theoretically hold 84 feeders, but due to a vibratory feeder in front and a large component aligner in back, it can only hold about 70 8mm feeders, and less when larger sizes are used.  I've never run out of feeder slots on that machine, but I have had to put some feeders on the back rail for some boards.

Jon

[Corporate666]

People have a very naive/misunderstood idea of what the problems and benefits of a pick and place machine are.

As others said, changing parts from feeders is a HUGE hassle.  Think of it like changing the hard drive in your computer.  It's not really that big of a deal, but if you had to do it 20 times per day (each time you wanted to run a new program), you would very quickly become tired of it.  You would do anything to find a solution which let you not change the hard drive.  That's about the same amount of hassle/tedium as changing parts in feeders. 

It is most definitely not just sticking the tape in and you are good.  It's a mechanism where you need to peel back the cover, feed the tape in, manually move it forward until the component appears, wrap the tape cover on whatever take-up mechanism the feeder has, etc.  When removing a tape from a feeder, you inevitably lose anywhere from a dozen to several dozen parts.  Then you have a cut tape which will lose the same number of parts again when you re-load that into a feeder.  Beyond that, you have to tweak the feeders on the machine... adjust the pick-up height, the placement height, the pickup location, the rotation, the air vacuum and various other parameters.  That can take as long (or much longer) than actually changing out the tape.  You would be lucky to achieve 20-30 minutes per feeder for new parts, and 5+ minutes for existing parts which are already programmed.  And it's not 5 minutes of enjoyable work.  It's tedious, repetitive, boring, and error prone. 

Anyone who has gone down this road will quickly want to amass a library of feeders with a specific part dedicated to a feeder.  But that gets expensive, but even so, the cost of a feeder quickly eclipses the tedium and hassle of changing out a tape.  As does the tedium of programming a new part eclipse the hassle/cost of re-using what you already have programmed (serializing/paralleling existing parts rather than loading new ones, etc).

PnP is ideal for long runs of boards with the smallest number of unique parts.  As soon as you start PnP'ing, you will VERY quickly start to design your boards to be as much like that as possible, because the hassle of PnP is huge and you need to run a lot of boards or have the right kind of boards/BOM's to make it worthwhile.

[mgrossm1@yahoo.com]

Amen brother.

[rx8pilot]

Thank you all, I currently pay well over $100 per board so I was hoping this could maybe be a solution for me but I see i have more research to do.

I was faced with a similar cost on 3 PCB's I was producing a few years ago when I decided to dive into a P&P system.

Soon, I learned why the cost was so high - the whole process is a laborious pain in the butt with a huge and steep learning curve. The Pick and place machine WILL NOT solve your problem, it is just a hammer in the context of building a house. It is important, but if all you have is a hammer, you will never build a whole house.

However much you think P&P will cost, it will cost more. However long you think it will take to learn the process, it will take longer.

If you stick with it and shed some blood and have the business volume.....it is great. If you believe it will ride in like unicorn to sprinkle magic on your assembly efforts - that unfortunately will not happen. I am personally still shell-shocked with the learning curve that continues a few years into it. I also got a commercial system with a giant pile of feeders so I was able to skip the problems that plague the small/low cost machines.

When anyone thinks of Pick and Place:
IT IS NOT A MACHINE. IT IS A COMPLEX PROCESS CONSISTING OF MACHINES, SKILLS, SOFTWARE, AND ORGANIZATION

[48X24X48X]

If you don't limit yourself to the TVM802B, there are some machines in similar or slightly more price bracket that could accommodate your 70 line BOM (depend on how many is on 8mm, 12mm, 16mm, etc tape width). SmallSMT has some model (their DP machine range I believe) that could fit. Others model from QiHe, Charmhigh or Neoden most probably didn't have that high count feeder machine available.

[pl116]

I added a few feeders as IC stacks - look at picture ...  +15

If someone need it I can send stl files to print it .

[AndyBig]

Unfortunately, these are actually not feeders, but SMD trays

[TIOUK]

Unfortunately, these are actually not feeders, but SMD trays

robotdigg have drag feeder parts that you may be able to retrofit.

[pl116]

Unfortunately, these are actually not feeders, but SMD trays

"SMD Tray" - is a feeder but with a manual drive ))) anyway it helps me ... 

[paulfish]

@qihe_kim I tried emailing sales1@qihekj.com, I've not received a response in 2 days? What is the best way to procure one of these machines? Thanks Paul

[bverstee]

Offtopic:
Hey guys, good evening.
I'm new here but have been reading through this topic a lot, and some others in the past as well.
I'm owner of the retrocomputer company ByteDelight, and after assembling a couple of thousand add-on devices by hand, it's finally time to have a pick and place machine do it.
I selected the TVM802A because of its speed and the camera.
Since I do a lot of pcb designing myself, I have no problem at all selecting parts for the reels and adapting my designs to use a smaller number of different components, so I'm really looking forward to adding this to my production line.

Ontopic:
I'm currently looking at AliExpress for the TVM802A, but there are so many offers (514!!) at this moment.
I would just order the cheapest one since I thought they are all equal, but just discovered that there are some differences, like the integrated PC in the more expensive ones.

Could you guys help me finding answers to these questions (still investigating some of them myself, hope I'm not too much of a trouble)?
1. I planned on using my own separate W10 machine to control the TVM802A (have a Core2 Duo laptop standing by for that), so is it ok to go with the cheapest model without integrated PC?
2. Could some of the machines offered be older versions, before major updates?
3. Not all descriptions specifically mention a 'high voltage drive' - what is it and do all come with it?
4. Some offers specifically mention a guide rail (for easy pcb positioning it seems), but it seems the cheapest also has that, am I right?
5. The cheapest ones all seem to have the SMD trays, but some offers do not show it on the photos - do some indeed go without?
6. If I read it correctly, the machine has both an Ethernet and a USB port - I guess you need to use the USB port to control the machine, but what is the Ethernet port for?
7. Are there specific sellers not to buy from maybe?

Ben Versteeg

[vonnieda]

Offtopic:
Hey guys, good evening.
I'm new here but have been reading through this topic a lot, and some others in the past as well.
I'm owner of the retrocomputer company ByteDelight, and after assembling a couple of thousand add-on devices by hand, it's finally time to have a pick and place machine do it.
I selected the TVM802A because of its speed and the camera.
Since I do a lot of pcb designing myself, I have no problem at all selecting parts for the reels and adapting my designs to use a smaller number of different components, so I'm really looking forward to adding this to my production line.

Ontopic:
I'm currently looking at AliExpress for the TVM802A, but there are so many offers (514!!) at this moment.
I would just order the cheapest one since I thought they are all equal, but just discovered that there are some differences, like the integrated PC in the more expensive ones.

Could you guys help me finding answers to these questions (still investigating some of them myself, hope I'm not too much of a trouble)?
1. I planned on using my own separate W10 machine to control the TVM802A (have a Core2 Duo laptop standing by for that), so is it ok to go with the cheapest model without integrated PC?
2. Could some of the machines offered be older versions, before major updates?
3. Not all descriptions specifically mention a 'high voltage drive' - what is it and do all come with it?
4. Some offers specifically mention a guide rail (for easy pcb positioning it seems), but it seems the cheapest also has that, am I right?
5. The cheapest ones all seem to have the SMD trays, but some offers do not show it on the photos - do some indeed go without?
6. If I read it correctly, the machine has both an Ethernet and a USB port - I guess you need to use the USB port to control the machine, but what is the Ethernet port for?
7. Are there specific sellers not to buy from maybe?

Ben Versteeg

I recently bought a machine for OpenPnP development, and the TVM was one of the options I considered. Maybe my notes will be helpful:

http://www.charmhigh-tech.com/sale-7971156-economic-model-chmt36va-smt-pick-and-place-machine-top-and-bottom-camera-externel-pc.html
SparkFun's choice. They probably researched it a bit.
$2800 + $640 DHL = $3440
Juki nozzles
29 drag feeders

https://www.robotdigg.com/product/865/RDG802A-pick-and-place-machine
Clone of Qihe TVM802A
26 feeders
dual vision
$3260 shipped

https://www.robotdigg.com/product/864/RDG802B-pick-and-place-machine
Clone of Qihe TVM802B
Same as above, but with 46 feeders
$4190 shipped

https://www.robotdigg.com/product/1173/RDG802A-X-or-RDG802B-X-Embedded-PC-workbench-pick-and-place-machine
They say same as above, but includes the PC built in.
But also description says "Closed-loop Servo Stepper Motor (Flexible S deceleration, 80V high voltage drive and S curve acceleration control )"
The description on Qihe's site says the same, but doesn't for the two machines above, so maybe the X gets you faster motors.
A $3590 shipped
B $4590 shipped

https://www.robotdigg.com/product/463/Desktop-Pick-and-Place-Machine-CHMT28
No cameras
25 feeders
$2000 before shipping

https://www.robotdigg.com/product/464/Desktop-Pick-n-Place-Machine-CHMT36-or-CHMT36VA
CHMT36 is no vision, with touch screen. Looks like a clone of the TM-240
29 drag feeders
$2200 before shipping

CHMT36VA is the Sparkfun machine
Same as above with vision, no touch screen, PC required
$2980 before shipping
Probably better to buy direct from CharmHigh tho

https://www.robotdigg.com/product/465/Desktop-Pick-and-Place-Machine-CHMT48VA
48 feeder with vision
$4100


https://www.robotdigg.com/product/1099/Benchtop-CHMT48VB-pick-and-place-machine
56 feeder with vision
$4550

https://www.robotdigg.com/product/730/2-or-4-head-Pick-n-Place-Machine-CHMT528-or-CHMT530P4
Looks like the TVM920 base
Embedded Linux
Uses Yamaha CL feeders but doesn't include any
T528P 2 nozzles, 28 feeders $3998 before shipping
T530P4 4 nozzles, 30 feeders $4998 before shipping
not a lot of details, but clearly dual vision

Good luck!

Jason

[AndyBig]

1. I planned on using my own separate W10 machine to control the TVM802A (have a Core2 Duo laptop standing by for that), so is it ok to go with the cheapest model without integrated PC?
2. Could some of the machines offered be older versions, before major updates?
3. Not all descriptions specifically mention a 'high voltage drive' - what is it and do all come with it?
4. Some offers specifically mention a guide rail (for easy pcb positioning it seems), but it seems the cheapest also has that, am I right?
5. The cheapest ones all seem to have the SMD trays, but some offers do not show it on the photos - do some indeed go without?
6. If I read it correctly, the machine has both an Ethernet and a USB port - I guess you need to use the USB port to control the machine, but what is the Ethernet port for?
7. Are there specific sellers not to buy from maybe?

From my experience:
1. Should work fine. The integrated computer is very weak (Intel Atom D2550, 2 GB of RAM, 32 GB SSD), but it works successfully.
2. I do not think that there were any significant changes in hardware.
3. A high-voltage driver means a higher voltage supply for motor drivers, this gives higher accelerations and speeds of movement of the axes. It seems that they are only available in X-versions (802AX and 802BX). Additionally, in these versions there is a feedback between the motors and drivers, which also improves the speed and accuracy of work. In fact, there are stepper servomotors there.
4. Yes, guide rails for PCB are available in all versions.
5. SMD trays should be bundled in all versions. But in any case it is best to make your own trays (3D printing or milling).
6. In the 802BX version, the machine controller is connected to the embedded computer via Ethernet. How is the connection in 802A - I'm not sure, but it is possible that two ports at once - Ethernet for controlling the machine and USB for receiving images from cameras.

I myself bought an 802BX machine on the Taobao site from this seller - https://item.taobao.com/item.htm?id=525680982287

[bverstee]

Thanks for the replies to my questions.

I just ordered the TVM802A from "Desh Woo's store" on AliExpress.

[pl116]

Thanks for the replies to my questions.

I just ordered the TVM802A from "Desh Woo's store" on AliExpress.

What version of software comes with your machine ? 2.xx or 3.xx ?

[maheed]

hi folks, if in my CSV file I have a rotation of the component 180 degree, so when i load this csv file from computer to software the angle becomes 90 automatically same for every component on PCB, can anybody help me in this,,what should i do.

[AndyBig]

hi folks, if in my CSV file I have a rotation of the component 180 degree, so when i load this csv file from computer to software the angle becomes 90 automatically same for every component on PCB, can anybody help me in this,,what should i do.

Show here the original .csv file.

[maheed]

here I am sharing the pic of the .csv file, here you can see the angle of the first component is 270(R46-1), but when I upload this for placement it becomes 180, and same for all the other components. I have checked many aspects but still failed.

[AndyBig]

I meant to attach the file itself so that we can try to open it in the PnP software

[maheed]

I am unable to upload Csv file here, but let me tell you it is the same file that came with TVM802B, (as an example).