Author Topic: Pick and place machines and nozzle changes?  (Read 764 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline pasimasi2

  • Newbie
  • Posts: 4
  • Country: at
Pick and place machines and nozzle changes?
« on: January 25, 2023, 11:00:49 pm »
I am planning to order a pick and place machine from China.
There is a solid need to make some boards monthly, placing around 150 000 components monthly.
I see the lower cost machines have 4 nozzle heads, so i started to think, is it possible to use them efficiently when our board has a lot of 0603 passives, but also some QFN32, QFN16, Dpak-transistors, smd POT, bigger diodes, switch and USB connector.

I was thinking, it would slow down the machine if there was many different nozzles needed all time, and for example just one of the nozzles could place the 0603 parts which are the most numerous components on board. Is the changing of nozzle during the operation some easy and well integrated option, or how it works? Or should boards be run for example first with all nozzles for 0603 to make many panels ready with these parts as quickly as possible, and then change nozzles and program, and place the other components?

Offline Mangozac

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 454
  • Country: au
Re: Pick and place machines and nozzle changes?
« Reply #1 on: January 26, 2023, 01:26:16 am »
Yes, you could do that but it would be painful. You would have to store the boards between each set of parts being placed, so more manual handling. Plus the solder paste would be out in the air for way longer, which isn't ideal.

On our 6 head Kayo we generally had 3 heads placing chip parts and SOT23, two heads for placing ICs and the last head set with a larger Z axis and larger nozzle so it could place modules and electrolytic capacitors. There were sometimes variations, depending on the board.

Offline 48X24X48X

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 485
  • Country: my
    • Rocket Scream
Re: Pick and place machines and nozzle changes?
« Reply #2 on: January 26, 2023, 02:36:55 am »
I have a 4-head machine. I would way go for a minimum 6-head or 8-head if speed if what you are looking for. The more passive and smaller components it can take at 1 go, the faster your CPH will be.

Offline pasimasi2

  • Newbie
  • Posts: 4
  • Country: at
Re: Pick and place machines and nozzle changes?
« Reply #3 on: January 26, 2023, 07:20:45 am »
Thank you very much, I will then go the original route, just to get what is needed, anyway just one order from the customer should pay back the investment anyway and more.

The Kayo 6 head machine and their semi automatic stencil printer and rf630 reflow oven. Just concerned what they mean when saying the starting power 24 kW, 380V, working power 5 kW.
This 3 phase 380V we would have, but I think very few places have fuses to handle then 24kW, it is over 60 Amps.

Other thought was, since we will be manufacturing just one specific board, to make a custom hot plate with custom holders to keep the board pressed against the hot plate etc. but it sounds so much more easy just to get a ready reflow oven but the starting power requirements make me worried if it can be started or not at all.

Offline JURP

  • Contributor
  • Posts: 13
  • Country: cz
Re: Pick and place machines and nozzle changes?
« Reply #4 on: January 26, 2023, 07:53:36 am »
But she (RF630) really has 24kw.
When it heats up, it has an AVERAGE consumption of 5kW.
According to the photo:
1)  there are 12 SSD, so about 1 SSD=2kW
2) one SSD = 2 power+2 control wire => 1 phase 230V
Just a minor correction:
24000W / 3 phase / 230V = 34.8A

Offline loki42

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 199
  • Country: au
Re: Pick and place machines and nozzle changes?
« Reply #5 on: January 26, 2023, 01:54:00 pm »
There's a thread on here about my machines one 30 spindle one 11 but check the height of your parts as well.  My 11 can nozzle change mid panel. My 30 only between panels.  Both have around  140 nozzles.  Full set of nozzles can get pricey especially for 0402 metric or other tiny stuff that needs Ceramic.  My 11 can take grippers as well for parts you can't vacuum pick. 

Offline jmelson

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2637
  • Country: us
Re: Pick and place machines and nozzle changes?
« Reply #6 on: January 26, 2023, 05:02:50 pm »
My first P&P machine had no ANC capability, I kept 3 different size nozzles on the 3 heads and never changed them.  My CAM-P&P converter program assigned the right head for the specific part.
I now have a newer machine with an ANC and the machine's optimizer software decides what order of placement to use to get fastest assembly time, taking into account XY motion and nozzle change time.  It only takes a couple seconds to swap nozzles.  The optimizer groups parts that can be picked with the same nozzles to minimize time taken for nozzle changes.
Making wild assumptions, 150K components/Mo, divided by 3600 parts/hour gives 42 hours of actual placement!  So, I really don't think you  are in any sort of a bind.  3600 parts/Hr is REALLY not very hard to do, only the VERY bottom of the line machines can't go that fast.
If you don't have ANC capability on the machine, then presetting with different nozzles is reasonable.  But, if the machine has changeable nozzles, why not get automatic nozzle changing?  That can't add that much to the cost of the machine.  I've seen some videos of really low-end machines with ANC's.


Offline PCBprototyping

  • Contributor
  • Posts: 43
  • Country: si
Re: Pick and place machines and nozzle changes?
« Reply #7 on: March 04, 2023, 02:04:12 pm »
150000 components monthly is not a problem for 4 head machine with nozzle exchanger.
Check this one, it has smart feeders, ballscrew, very intuitive and clean design of SW, pocket recognition, bulk recognition, flying vision, 35x35 max component size, reliable 0201 placement, conveyor, removable feeder banks, etc.

Share me

Digg  Facebook  SlashDot  Delicious  Technorati  Twitter  Google  Yahoo