Author Topic: PnP Machine for House Garage  (Read 5670 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline mrpackethead

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2831
  • Country: nz
  • D Size Cell
Re: PnP Machine for House Garage
« Reply #25 on: June 07, 2019, 10:16:33 am »
In the end, they just bought a decent one :p

Its what everyone who's serious eventualy does.      First you try to make a screwdriver out of a bit of steel at home,  but its not the right shape.. You then buy one at the $2.. it works a couple of times,  burrs screws and then you slip with it, and hurt yourself.  you then get a $10 one from the hardware sthpp, and it works, but its still a bit meh!   Eventually you go and get a decent tool from an engineering supply and it works really well, and will last you a lifetime.
On a quest to find increasingly complicated ways to blink things
 

Offline Ribster

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 207
  • Country: be
  • Electronics prototyper. Design. Prototype. Consult
    • Ash Labs
Re: PnP Machine for House Garage
« Reply #26 on: June 07, 2019, 10:55:54 am »
Quote
I know at the school in belgium where i was it, they bought a PnP kit from a german guy

https://www.vbesmens.de/de/bestueckungsautomat.html

Exactly that one !
It was very nicely designed. But the hand assembly of the main PCB was a nightmare i remember.
It used a few PIC's IIRC. The power stage for the three-phase motors gave them a hard time.
The parts blew up a few times. They wasted a lot of time with that. But the support of the creator was actually pretty good on that part. So no negative things.
It's a part of doing stuff yourself. Issues everywhere. It's not a problem if you account this in, just don't expect 'kits' to work without any failure.
www.ashlabs.be
Design of hardware, software with stm32 and prototyping.
 

Offline Ribster

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 207
  • Country: be
  • Electronics prototyper. Design. Prototype. Consult
    • Ash Labs
Re: PnP Machine for House Garage
« Reply #27 on: June 07, 2019, 11:00:18 am »
In the end, they just bought a decent one :p

Its what everyone who's serious eventualy does.      First you try to make a screwdriver out of a bit of steel at home,  but its not the right shape.. You then buy one at the $2.. it works a couple of times,  burrs screws and then you slip with it, and hurt yourself.  you then get a $10 one from the hardware sthpp, and it works, but its still a bit meh!   Eventually you go and get a decent tool from an engineering supply and it works really well, and will last you a lifetime.

If you look back from the point where you bought the decent tool, you think: what did i do.
But knowing you need a decent thing is something that grows. If you are getting into screwdrivers (bad analogy, but you get the point), you might not know if you need the top notch thing and/if you are going to need it daily or once in a blue moon.
The learning process and identifying what you need is also a part. Going for the best thing each time might sets you back more if you just don't use it.
www.ashlabs.be
Design of hardware, software with stm32 and prototyping.
 

Offline mendez

  • Contributor
  • Posts: 45
  • Country: us
Re: PnP Machine for House Garage
« Reply #28 on: June 07, 2019, 01:55:42 pm »
I decided to make this instead; I might blog the build. I know it might be slow (500-100cph) but it will be a fun learning experience.

Is that a kit (which one?) or your own design? What are you planning to use for control and software?

No, this is a OpenPnP CAD file. However, I'm modifying a few files (ex. double shear belt tensioner, exterior dimensions, and head). The software will be OpenPnP with a Smoothie V5.x Board
 

Offline mendez

  • Contributor
  • Posts: 45
  • Country: us
Re: PnP Machine for House Garage
« Reply #29 on: June 07, 2019, 02:05:04 pm »
In the end, they just bought a decent one :p

Its what everyone who's serious eventualy does.      First you try to make a screwdriver out of a bit of steel at home,  but its not the right shape.. You then buy one at the $2.. it works a couple of times,  burrs screws and then you slip with it, and hurt yourself.  you then get a $10 one from the hardware sthpp, and it works, but its still a bit meh!   Eventually you go and get a decent tool from an engineering supply and it works really well, and will last you a lifetime.

 :-DD I won't consider the screw driver analogy an Apples to Apples comparison; however, I understand your point. I know where I'm getting my self into; I will purchase a production level PnP as soon I moved; that is why I will try to keep this under budget. I looked into getting a Manual PnP but I decided to give this a try.

Here is my "PLAN":
1. Budget : Less than $1500 (Already spent $1000)
2. Time to finish the project: Before June 30th
3. Use modular trays dedicated for each project file; this helps me reduce setup time. I don't plan to use Feeders (but I might make 1 or 2 just in case);

Yesterday I purchased 80% of the parts required for the built; including the Aluminum Frames, pre-made head, HIWIN Linear Rails, controller board and steppers; so  23 days to go.
 

Offline NorthGuy

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1898
  • Country: ca
Re: PnP Machine for House Garage
« Reply #30 on: June 07, 2019, 03:05:18 pm »
Its what everyone who's serious eventualy does.      First you try to make a screwdriver out of a bit of steel at home,  but its not the right shape.. You then buy one at the $2.. it works a couple of times,  burrs screws and then you slip with it, and hurt yourself.  you then get a $10 one from the hardware sthpp, and it works, but its still a bit meh!   Eventually you go and get a decent tool from an engineering supply and it works really well, and will last you a lifetime.

Or, perhaps, as you go through screwdrivers you hone your driving (or screwing if you wish) skills, and by the time you get to the most expensive screwdriver you finally know how to screw (or drive). You swear by your new super screwdriver, but in fact, with your newly-acquired skills, the initial $0.50 screwdriver would work just as well.
 

Offline Kjelt

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 5760
  • Country: nl
Re: PnP Machine for House Garage
« Reply #31 on: June 07, 2019, 07:03:08 pm »
Always nice  to see a build so yes please do start a topic.
Two things that trigger me on your picture.
- the base plate covers the entire X-Y area so it looks more like a cnc machine than a pnp machine.
look at real pnp machines for inspiration
- the two X axis are connected and driven by belt. For p&p not really needed since the head gets no counterforces , so if one of the x ax is is driven the other will follow.
 

Offline djacobow

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1061
  • Country: us
  • takin' it apart since the 70's
Re: PnP Machine for House Garage
« Reply #32 on: June 08, 2019, 02:55:13 am »
Also worth looking into is JLC SMT: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/manufacture/jlc-pcb-prototype-assembly-incredibly-cheap/

This is only available within China for now. But it looks like it could be very interesting.

I've been getting some boards done by PCBWay. It's not as cheap as I'd like. I mean, the PCBs are cheap, but on a per pin basis, they are charging me what I think is a lot. Plus, there will be the tariff, and the last couple of orders I have made from them have not "slipped by customs." I think any order over $500 will get the noticed.

Anyhow, I have thought about doing my own PCBA for my own projects. Boards for my current product have about 115 components on them, but only 24 unique and only a few smaller than 0805. I can hammer out a few an hour even with a soldering iron, though there will usually be a bit of rework.  But I do want to make a few hundred this year and it just doesn't seem like a great way to spend my time.

I dunno. Cost-effective PCBA for a small business still seems "unsolved", at least unless your boards go into something with a healthy margin.
 

Offline 1276-2449-1-ND

  • Contributor
  • Posts: 44
  • Country: ca
Re: PnP Machine for House Garage
« Reply #33 on: June 09, 2019, 01:10:41 am »
Last year I bought a little CHMT32VA for my business and it was the best decision ever. I only need to make a couple hundred or so boards a month (for just over a dozen designs), and standardized my components so just about everything can be done with the machine. The workflow is so tight now that I can do an entire run in a day, instead of a week the first few months. The last run I got so caught up in it that now I'm overflowing with PCBs. Did I just go through an entire reel of TL072s? :palm:

I'm still using a hacked toaster-oven and a DIY laser-cut paste spreader with stencils cut on a hobby stencil-cutter. These work great and are fast so there hasn't been much of an incentive to change.

I can produce things for much, much less than getting them done in China (still get PCBs made there though), and the savings get passed on to my customers. Who would have thought that it's cheaper to get things made locally than in China? Less hassle too.
 
The following users thanked this post: Ribster

Offline revenue_controls

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • !
  • Posts: 80
  • Country: us
Re: PnP Machine for House Garage
« Reply #34 on: June 09, 2019, 11:18:07 pm »
check out https://www.eevblog.com/forum/manufacture/smallsmt-pnp-adventure-learning-and-documenting/50/

I have looked at the $10k to $20k US machines (because I did want to buy US) But decided on a SmallSMT machine. I am very happy with it and I think it was actually less expensive than the US machine (SMTmax) I was looking at, even with the added tariff! Additionally the SmallSMT machine is built very rigid, the US machine does not.

I do about 400 production boards / year and prototyping but mostly I bought it to play with! I moved the machine into my work shop (5 steps up) by shear will power.

are you on the east cost? Contact me if you would like the details.
 

Offline mrpackethead

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2831
  • Country: nz
  • D Size Cell
Re: PnP Machine for House Garage
« Reply #35 on: June 10, 2019, 02:00:16 am »
even with the added tariff!

Was it 25%?
On a quest to find increasingly complicated ways to blink things
 

Offline mrpackethead

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2831
  • Country: nz
  • D Size Cell
Re: PnP Machine for House Garage
« Reply #36 on: June 10, 2019, 02:30:42 am »
What i did, was buy some good 2nd hand machines.  I make about 300-1000 panels per month.    I have 150 Slots for CL feeders, and a big tray. That has almost been neough to allow me to keep all my parts on the machines full time.

I'm able to switch between items with about 10 minutes effort.  ( changing supports, rail widths, etc ).     This is only possibel becuase i dont' have to strip down the machine.  Its not optimal placement and moving components around would speed it up, but I get abetween 12,000-14,000 pph actual placement rates.

Would i suggest others to do this.  Yes. but theres a proviso.  Only if you either have some solid experience with the machines you are going to buy, Or you have someone who can help you out.   Or be prepared for a long learning curve.

Also spend as much effort on Paste applicaiton and ovens as you do on teh PNP. They are not afterthoughts.
On a quest to find increasingly complicated ways to blink things
 
The following users thanked this post: Ribster

Offline Smallsmt

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 529
  • Country: de
Re: PnP Machine for House Garage
« Reply #37 on: June 10, 2019, 02:01:58 pm »
What i did, was buy some good 2nd hand machines.  I make about 300-1000 panels per month.    I have 150 Slots for CL feeders, and a big tray. That has almost been neough to allow me to keep all my parts on the machines full time.

I'm able to switch between items with about 10 minutes effort.  ( changing supports, rail widths, etc ).     This is only possibel becuase i dont' have to strip down the machine.  Its not optimal placement and moving components around would speed it up, but I get abetween 12,000-14,000 pph actual placement rates.

Would i suggest others to do this.  Yes. but theres a proviso.  Only if you either have some solid experience with the machines you are going to buy, Or you have someone who can help you out.   Or be prepared for a long learning curve.

Also spend as much effort on Paste applicaiton and ovens as you do on teh PNP. They are not afterthoughts.

You went on the big way and it's nice to see you got it working.
Some customer are on tight space and need smaller solutions.
I agree your machines are more reliable working and maybe more fast too.

 

Offline jmelson

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1341
  • Country: us
Re: PnP Machine for House Garage
« Reply #38 on: June 10, 2019, 07:25:25 pm »

You went on the big way and it's nice to see you got it working.
Some customer are on tight space and need smaller solutions.
I agree your machines are more reliable working and maybe more fast too.
I bought a Philips CSM84 in 2007.  Yes, it is BIG, and heavy.  Those are actually not bad things in highly dynamic machines.
Mine has 3 nozzles, which I have set up for 3 different part sizes.  My machine has no vision, which is a definite drawback for use with fine-pitch ICs,
but uses centering jaws for the smaller parts.  It has had a few breakdowns over the years, but I have been able to fix all of them.

It definitely is faster than some of the machines I've seen videos of, it can do about 3000 parts/hour.  If you set up the feeder placements and placement order carefully, it can mount 2 or 3 parts each time the head moves over to the feeders.  I don't bother with that optimization.

Jon
 

Offline Kjelt

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 5760
  • Country: nl
Re: PnP Machine for House Garage
« Reply #39 on: June 10, 2019, 08:33:09 pm »
I bought a Philips CSM84 in 2007.  Yes, it is BIG, and heavy.  Those are actually not bad things in highly dynamic machines.
Mine has 3 nozzles, which I have set up for 3 different part sizes.  My machine has no vision, which is a definite drawback for use with fine-pitch ICs,
but uses centering jaws for the smaller parts.  It has had a few breakdowns over the years, but I have been able to fix all of them.

It definitely is faster than some of the machines I've seen videos of, it can do about 3000 parts/hour.
Use it for the majority of jellybean parts and use a second cheap machine with vision for the few delicate parts. Perhaps build the second one yourself with open pnp
 

Offline jmelson

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1341
  • Country: us
Re: PnP Machine for House Garage
« Reply #40 on: June 11, 2019, 07:12:15 pm »
Use it for the majority of jellybean parts and use a second cheap machine with vision for the few delicate parts. Perhaps build the second one yourself with open pnp
Hmmm, an interesting thought!  But, what I do now is have the CSM84 mount all the parts, then I inspect placement and nudge the fine-pitch parts to better alignment.  Kind of tedious, and if I forget to nudge one that needs it, then I have some rework to do.

Thanks for the idea,

Jon
 

Offline Kean

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 926
  • Country: au
  • Embedded systems & IT consultant
    • Kean Electronics
Re: PnP Machine for House Garage
« Reply #41 on: June 11, 2019, 08:06:40 pm »
Use it for the majority of jellybean parts and use a second cheap machine with vision for the few delicate parts. Perhaps build the second one yourself with open pnp
Hmmm, an interesting thought!  But, what I do now is have the CSM84 mount all the parts, then I inspect placement and nudge the fine-pitch parts to better alignment.  Kind of tedious, and if I forget to nudge one that needs it, then I have some rework to do.

Thanks for the idea,

Jon

This is what I do with my TM240A (no vision, drag feeders).  I mostly do 0603 and 0.65mm pitch or larger, but sometimes I do 0402 and 0.5mm pitch.  Placement accuracy isn't great but I just need to do quick manual inspection and a little careful nudging.

Using the PnP saves me time over hand placement, but I'm typically only doing batches of 20 to 50 boards, and only about once a month.  A significant reel swap (which is typical as my designs are for different clients and have few common parts) can lead to almost no time improvement in small batches.  I do have a reasonably decent "3040" manual stencil printer.

If building 10 or less boards I'll usually do hand placement.  Larger runs get outsourced, as well as the occasional non-rush smaller runs of a proven design.
 

Offline mendez

  • Contributor
  • Posts: 45
  • Country: us
Re: PnP Machine for House Garage
« Reply #42 on: June 12, 2019, 01:05:12 am »
I started the pnp build; the only parts missing are the Head Unit Assy that will be available by the end of the month. I got Juky and CP40 nozzles for testing. I will start a new topic soon.
 

Offline Ribster

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 207
  • Country: be
  • Electronics prototyper. Design. Prototype. Consult
    • Ash Labs
Re: PnP Machine for House Garage
« Reply #43 on: June 12, 2019, 08:18:18 am »
Where did you buy the kit from? Or are they individually sourced components ?
Looks like a lot of fun! For the hywin (or knockoff) lineair rails, look it up on youtube how to clean them.
I had a delta 3d printer with those rails and they clogged up fairly quickly.
De assembling them and cleaning them will make them more robust.
Something to consider doing!
www.ashlabs.be
Design of hardware, software with stm32 and prototyping.
 

Offline Kjelt

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 5760
  • Country: nl
Re: PnP Machine for House Garage
« Reply #44 on: June 12, 2019, 03:39:52 pm »
Where did you buy the kit from? Or are they individually sourced components ?
Looks like a lot of fun! For the hywin (or knockoff) lineair rails, look it up on youtube how to clean them.
I had a delta 3d printer with those rails and they clogged up fairly quickly.
De assembling them and cleaning them will make them more robust.
Something to consider doing!
If they are genuine HiWin do NOT clean them, they are pre greased and they should not run as an oily bobsled, they are made to have zero tolerance on 3 axis so they should be sturdy, mistake many beginners make. They are made for cnc machining to withstand big powers on all axis during milling, they are not really made for low powered 3D printers or p&p machines, then you need to beef up you're motors.
 
The following users thanked this post: Ribster

Offline Harvs

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1163
  • Country: au
Re: PnP Machine for House Garage
« Reply #45 on: June 12, 2019, 10:51:21 pm »
I've started building basically the same thing, using those same plans as a baseline.

For me, it's more about the interest in toying around with some different CNC stuff. I've worked with and built routers, lots of steel and heavy components. I'm very interested to see how well the small rails, belts and ally extrusion works for positioning something without significant load. If I can make boards with it at the end, then all the better.

I don't have high hopes given the amount of effort that normally goes into the mounting surface precision rails normally bolt to, but I think it's a worthwhile exercise.

Building one of these is more or less "building by shopping" from what I can see so far.
 

Offline Kjelt

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 5760
  • Country: nl
Re: PnP Machine for House Garage
« Reply #46 on: June 13, 2019, 06:33:33 am »
If you build yourself you can always upgrade later. For instance replace the belts with spindles , replace the steppers with closed loop steppers or servos, perhaps even add a glassrail sensor to get a few um position accuracy.
 

Offline mendez

  • Contributor
  • Posts: 45
  • Country: us
Re: PnP Machine for House Garage
« Reply #47 on: June 13, 2019, 07:15:19 pm »
Where did you buy the kit from? Or are they individually sourced components ?
Looks like a lot of fun! For the hywin (or knockoff) lineair rails, look it up on youtube how to clean them.
I had a delta 3d printer with those rails and they clogged up fairly quickly.
De assembling them and cleaning them will make them more robust.
Something to consider doing!

I individually purchase the parts. Thanks for the feedback; I purchase HYWIN Brand and I will look at the videos; thanks!
 

Offline wilhe_jo

  • Contributor
  • Posts: 41
  • Country: at
Re: PnP Machine for House Garage
« Reply #48 on: June 15, 2019, 04:55:09 pm »
 

Offline Harvs

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1163
  • Country: au
Re: PnP Machine for House Garage
« Reply #49 on: June 16, 2019, 10:36:36 pm »
Why not using a cheap laser engraver for XY?

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/miniUSB-DVP-3830-Laser-A3-Desktop-USB-CNC-Laser-Engraving-Engraver-Cutting-Machine-Without-Laser-Head/33037159213.html

should be plenty accurate for the positioning part.

73

I have my personal doubts about it being plenty accurate, but I've never worked with any CNC hardware using plastic wheels instead of precision rails so I have no evidence to back those doubts up.

But maybe more importantly, it doesn't really gain you anything.  The XY stage is a simple and cheap part of the whole build.

As a basis it looks like we're both working off the design from Anthony Webb over at https://hackaday.io/project/9319/logs

All the aluminium extrusion, brackets and hardware for the base and gantry came to ~$100AU.  Linear rails ~$100AU for the knock offs, or about 3.5x that if you get genuine HIWINs.  Once you add motors, smoothieboard clone, belts, etc you can probably add another $100AU.  So it's maybe ~$100AU more than that laser xy stage, but it's the size and shape that's needed to complete the rest of the design.

There's a lot of parts and details required to have a truly neat finished build for a pnp, of which the base and xy stage is only maybe only 1/4 - 1/3 of the cost.  So to me it doesn't make sense to scrounge for savings in this area.
 


Share me

Digg  Facebook  SlashDot  Delicious  Technorati  Twitter  Google  Yahoo
Smf