EEVblog® Electronics Community Forum
Electronics => Manufacturing & Assembly => Topic started by: RAndres24 on July 15, 2020, 02:58:54 pm
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My use case is prototype work. I try to stay at 0603 passives and bigger and avoid BGAs. Biggest board I've run is about 5 x 8 inches. Usually more like 2 x 3 inches. I don't anticipate needing to make runs of more than 10 boards at a time, maybe twice a month.
I've used a number of 110V powered benchtop IR ovens, and would like to get something better. While I've gotten decent results from a modified 962A, I've had issues. It doesn't have to power to hit the temperature ramps called out, and I've had discolored (overheated) connectors, for instance. I can get 220 supply, and I'd like to go with convection heat. I'd like to be able to add a fume filter.
Contenders so far are the Manncorp MC-301, and the Bomir/Bokar X-Reflow306 LF-AC. Both of these a bit more than the 5k I'd like to stay under. I've just seen the Neoden IN6, and am curious how it compares. Anyone have experience with these, or a recommendation for something I've missed?
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For prototype work, why bother worrying about temperature ramps? A $40 toaster oven works fine.
Also, low temp solder (tin/silver/bismuth) = easy mode.
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Lots of ways to get a proto to work, no doubt. I'd like to aim a little higher. Some of these will be in the hands of customers. I want to have a solid process and get repeatable results I can stand behind.
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Hi RAndres24,
Greetings, this is Alice from Neoden.
I'd like to introduce our reflow oven IN6 for your reference, it is a hot air type oven, with 6 zones.
~Small-size desktop soldering machine with multiple functions.
~With built-in soldering smoke filtering system, eco-friendly, and save more space.
~With 6 heating zones (upper3/down3), it supports most of regular components, LED and ICs.
~A power-saved soldering equipment, can be used in pcb prototype project or small batch PCBA manufacturing.
No hesitate to contact me if you have any questions.
Best regards,
Alice
Email: sales4@neodentech.com
Mob: +86-13588176839
Skype: Alice-Neoden
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I have a used 3 zone vitronics oven that I recommend, $1750. I am in Chicago 220V convection. Vitronics make the longest lasting no headache ovens in the industry. I recommend it over neoden/manncorp any day as its industrial grade as opposed to prosumer.
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Did you miss a zero or was that an ebay special?
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@Reckless seems to have a skill for finding old stuff very cheap.
Of course being a Vitronics it will also doubtless be chuffing enormous and drink power.
If you were attempting any level of actual production I would suggest getting a proper forced air conveyor oven or a Vapor Phase but as it is I don't think there is anything much wrong with something like the IN6 or even a T960/T961 if your work is within their limitations* and at least they are easy to tuck away in a corner.
* I doubt you'd have much fun soldering massive inductors or surface mount transformers for example.
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From a quick search, I don't think I can put in something as big as the Vitronics devices I saw. I'm sure it does a great job!
I've seen the benchtop vapor phase ovens, and I find the idea intriguing. I'd prefer to avoid the expensive consumable and added complication. I'd like less limitations than the 962 I've used.
My main question about the Neoden is about the power/ramp times. Can a 110 powered oven really achieve the required slopes? Also, is a conveyor an effective trade off against a benchtop convection oven at this price level? Or is there much more maintenance, and other trade offs?
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I use a Controleo converted $40 toaster oven, about $350 all said and done for the setup.
Works wonderfully. I run 150mm x 200mm boards all the time. No issues, repeatable, reliable.
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Yeah seriously give the toaster oven a shot. I've turned out hundreds of boards with mine using a Mk1 eyeball controller, and if you're used to a 962 you will see immediate improvement.
Reliability is down to your QC more than your oven.
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@Reckless seems to have a skill for finding old stuff very cheap.
Of course being a Vitronics it will also doubtless be chuffing enormous and drink power.
If you were attempting any level of actual production I would suggest getting a proper forced air conveyor oven or a Vapor Phase but as it is I don't think there is anything much wrong with something like the IN6 or even a T960/T961 if your work is within their limitations* and at least they are easy to tuck away in a corner.
* I doubt you'd have much fun soldering massive inductors or surface mount transformers for example.
My two issues is that Neodens are expensive and they are prosumer not industrial grade. They may be good for prototyping but why spend more for something that is less. Maybe I am old fashioned and don't like wasting money on a new car. I'd rather spend the money on a nicer pick place machine or stencil printer than on an oven.
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Did you miss a zero or was that an ebay special?
No its legit. Machine is running in my factory.
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Reckless, I generally agree with your line of reasoning. But, I'm going to have an easier time getting a new, modern machine with warranty support in the door here because of optics, and some other similar factors involved in the decision. I like the idea of integrated fume filtration in the Neoden. My main misgivings about it are the low power, and the added complexity of the conveyor.
I think the advantage of the Controleo over the 962 is in the convection vs IR, correct? Based on what I've read, that's a big advantage, and the reason I'm looking at the convection ovens. Toaster oven won't fly here.
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OPM (Other Peoples Money) aka opium
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My main question about the Neoden is about the power/ramp times. Can a 110 powered oven really achieve the required slopes? Also, is a conveyor an effective trade off against a benchtop convection oven at this price level? Or is there much more maintenance, and other trade offs?
IN6 is a convection oven which preheats before you start the reflow, so sure it might take a while for it to heat up and be ready for the job, but once it's there, it only needs to maintain temperature. This is a nice thing about conveyor ovens - they don't need to start from the room temperature every time you load a new board. Besides, Neoden has US reseller, so maybe it's possible to arrange your visit to their office/warehouse so that you can see this oven in action. If they want your business and are confident about their products, I'm sure they would welcome such a visit. At least that's what I'do in their shoes.
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What's a ballpark price for the Neoden IN6? Manncorp 301? X-Reflow306?
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Seems I need to save money for mekhatronika m10 like machine to really enjoy work on it)
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I used a converted toaster oven for years. It was fine, but was a pain when I had to run through 10 or 20 PCBs that would not all fit into the oven. I looked around and bought a Puhui T-960 (http://puhuit.com/main/page_products_t960_reflow_oven.html (http://puhuit.com/main/page_products_t960_reflow_oven.html)) and I have never looked back nor have I used by old converted toaster oven. Basic specs are:
- 5 Zone comprised of 3 up and 2 down
- Just over 3 feet in length weighing about 200 lbs
- Needs 220VAC single phase or can be wired for higher 3-phase voltages
- I paid about $1200 for the unit with about $600 shipping... about $2K by the time I had it in my hands.
For the table, I welded one out of metal so that there would be no issues with regards to supporting the weight or residual temp issues. Also I added ducting to exhaust any fumes that might result.
The only real caveat is that it takes about 10 minutes to come up to temp, but it works fantastic and allows me to continually run as many PCBs I like. I have used it with 2/4/6 layer PCBs with fine pitch (0.5mm) LQFP/QFN, BGA (0.65mm), and 0603/0402 parts with no issues. If anything I may tweak the various zone temps or conveyor speeds depending upon the solder paste, etc. Overall I am very pleased with the unit and it certainly addresses my PCB needs from 1 to 50 at a time.
Cheers,
Sam
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I have a used 3 zone vitronics oven that I recommend, $1750. I am in Chicago 220V convection. Vitronics make the longest lasting no headache ovens in the industry. I recommend it over neoden/manncorp any day as its industrial grade as opposed to prosumer.
What's wrong with mancorp?
I have a used mancorp oven, it very much industrial. Heavy gauge steel. All made from replaceable electronics - relays, temp controllers etc. It can last forever.
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They buy from others and rebadge them. If you need tiny little help or simple part they want $5000+ registeration fee on $1000 Torch brand ovens (ive had a couple). They are the butt of jokes for the various smt salesmen as they dont make anything on their own but pretend. Once you need a custom part you are screwed. I almost bought one of their ovens used and it needed a blower fan. They refused to help or even point where they sourced their equipment. Since they buy from different vendors some of their stuff is decent chinese grade. Some companies try to make their money after sales, some want to solve your problem as efficiently as possible. I imagine their equipment works but my smt guys have no respect for them.
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that's the thing, mine does not have anything custom, aside from the enclosure. Ok fine there are aluminum gears that drive the belt, but they are not going to fail in the next 20 years.
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... I looked around and bought a Puhui T-960 (http://puhuit.com/main/page_products_t960_reflow_oven.html (http://puhuit.com/main/page_products_t960_reflow_oven.html)) and I have never looked back
Cheers,
Sam
Amazon is selling the t-960E for $300: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07T1JB4HJ (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07T1JB4HJ)
They must be overstocked or clearing inventory to sell them basically for what it costs to ship, or maybe its an Amazon mispricing. I just ordered one, so we'll see. I only do prototypes, and was looking for a small desktop reflow oven, when my search landed on this. I have a small shop, and this is a bit large, but for $300 I couldn't pass it up.
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Neoden IN6 Seems to be working great for me!
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... I looked around and bought a Puhui T-960 (http://puhuit.com/main/page_products_t960_reflow_oven.html (http://puhuit.com/main/page_products_t960_reflow_oven.html)) and I have never looked back
Cheers,
Sam
Amazon is selling the t-960E for $300: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07T1JB4HJ (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07T1JB4HJ)
They must be overstocked or clearing inventory to sell them basically for what it costs to ship, or maybe its an Amazon mispricing. I just ordered one, so we'll see. I only do prototypes, and was looking for a small desktop reflow oven, when my search landed on this. I have a small shop, and this is a bit large, but for $300 I couldn't pass it up.
If it was covnection heating I might have been interested. Infrared is uneven heat in my experience.
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If it was covnection heating I might have been interested. Infrared is uneven heat in my experience.
according to the manufacturer, it is a combination of infrared and hot air:
" This machine selects the intelligent level sirocco and rapid infrared heating technology controlling, equipped with special design wind wheel"
https://www.puhuit.com/main/page_products_t960e_reflow_oven.html (https://www.puhuit.com/main/page_products_t960e_reflow_oven.html)
The vendor has shipped it, I had my doubts as I only paid $300. They sold out shortly after I posted about it, did anyone else here buy one off Amazon?
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If it was covnection heating I might have been interested. Infrared is uneven heat in my experience.
according to the manufacturer, it is a combination of infrared and hot air:
" This machine selects the intelligent level sirocco and rapid infrared heating technology controlling, equipped with special design wind wheel"
https://www.puhuit.com/main/page_products_t960e_reflow_oven.html (https://www.puhuit.com/main/page_products_t960e_reflow_oven.html)
The vendor has shipped it, I had my doubts as I only paid $300. They sold out shortly after I posted about it, did anyone else here buy one off Amazon?
I bought two the next day for a heat curing application. Should be arriving today. If we have time we may test/profile it for smt reflow.
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anyone get their T960E from the amazon deal?
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Yes, I got mine. Haven't had a chance to use it. Did you get one?
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shipping delayed, but fingers crossed
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It will come but be prepared for a 40 amp 110V outlet. It has a huge thick cord with a monstrous plug. I thought they would have put a 20 amp cord and setup a delay not to turn on all heaters at once to keep peak current low. If you don't get it I have extras in chicago. It won't work for my curing application as opening is a hair to small. May end up returning one.
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It will come but be prepared for a 40 amp 110V outlet. It has a huge thick cord with a monstrous plug. I thought they would have put a 20 amp cord and setup a delay not to turn on all heaters at once to keep peak current low. If you don't get it I have extras in chicago. It won't work for my curing application as opening is a hair to small. May end up returning one.
Hmmm... something is a bit odd here. My 960 (ordered directly from Puhui) was wired for 3-phase power and so I had to modify things to accommodate single phase 220VAC... and I believe I have a 30A breaker. If the unit you have is setup for 110/120VAC 40A... then your site wiring is going to need attention, as wire needed to accommodate 40A is going to be rather beefy...
Also, my T960 can draw as much as 4500W... so at 120VAC this would require a minimum current of 37.5A or... 20A with 220V (single phase). So your comment about a timed delay of the turn on of the elements may not trip the breaker, but is electrically risky and would not be a wise or insurance-safe option/solution.
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May I ask how much you paid for your unit? I remember these used to run almost $4000 shipped 3-4 years ago.
Im pretty sure it can be rewired to 220V easily. It comes with a huge thick whip which we used to test our machine at 110V.
If I was manufacturer I would have programmed the micro to turn on one heat zone at a time and then used a regular 15A or 20A plug. 4500W divide by 5 900W per heat zone peak. I would have made it 3-4 heat zones all on top (no bottom) using 15A plug so more people in USA will want to use it. The only drawback would be it would take awhile to warm up. I think Neoden did something like this and called it a smart oven.
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anyone get their T960E from the amazon deal?
Mine arrived. It's set up for 120vac single phase (or 3-phase). I wired it to a 40A breaker. With switches 1, 2, and 3 on, it pulls 45A. I'd like to power it from 240vac, but that does not appear to be an option.
I may take it apart to see if the heaters can be rewired in series for 240vac operation. If not, I'll have to use a transformer.
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You got different results than me but we didn't measure current. heat zones 1,2,3,4 worked on 30 amp 110V circuit. My electrician was over yesterday he said we can switch to 230V 3 phase. He could tell it was chinese by how power was not properly locked down and mounted inside panel in one part of the oven. He will be back in a week, he is helping install a 480V electrical heater.
Anybody looking for one of these in chicago I have two extra for sale.
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My electrician was over yesterday he said we can switch to 230V 3 phase.
If you can offer any more info on that I would be grateful. I have written to support@puhuit.com, and will post their response here, if any.
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I will ask next time he is over. He comes randomly every few weeks as a side job.
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Does anyone have a T960 reflow working are they worth $1500?
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It depends. It does work for prototype level and has very basic construction. I personally wouldnt pay $1500 for it but it does work for my application. The most I'd pay is $300 as that what it feels like its worth. It has a smaller opening 0.5" or so.
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A business will get less customer returns reflowing PCBs in a toaster oven which are then inspected by an engineer, verses a business paying someone in asia to reflow PCBs using high end professional equipment but then inspected by someone on minimum wage.
Note: if a toaster oven is too small, a small commercial pizza oven can be a good upgrade.
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Yea I have a convection oven I was going to convert to 220V and use for reflow, however if I can buy something for around $2k that works I would save my time.
As far as speed goes, most of my boards are so dense with parts the pick and place takes longer than the reflow for a panel. So I do not need a conveyor system.
I do have a T962A which I have spent days reworking and tweaking and I still can not get it work reasonably well. My conclusion was IR is not good for reflow, as that board color, component color, etc all make a difference. Soldering a tin color USB connector is just out of the question, will burn rest of board before it gets heat to reflow.
On the oven upgrade, I have been putting it off as one of my requirements is external vent. Hence I have been putting off cutting holes and installing vent system.
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I do have a T962A which I have spent days reworking and tweaking and I still can not get it work reasonably well. My conclusion was IR is not good for reflow, as that board color, component color, etc all make a difference. Soldering a tin color USB connector is just out of the question, will burn rest of board before it gets heat to reflow.
IR is certainly not ideal for reflow but its the T962 itself that's the issue here, we ran a conveyor based IR reflow oven for years, a significant proportion of heat transfer is not from IR the oven just needs to take advantage of that. Of course it will still have it limitations compared to forced air or vapor phase, small DIY reflow toaster ovens can also have a significant amount of emissive IR heat transfer too.
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I purchased ZB2520HL oven about half a year ago, and so far very happy with results. I don't know exactly how they do it, but so far I had absolutely no issues with plastic melting, even Mini-Circuits ADP-2-1+ parts which became darker after reflow in my previous oven (modified T962), in new oven were just fine. On the product description they say it uses a combination of IR and hot air, but I don't really know as I didn't disassemble the oven. One thing I will say is that out-of-box firmware is MUCH better than what it was in T962, so much so that I use it with no problems to report (other than they have a rather weird way of configuring reflow profile).
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My electrician was over yesterday he said we can switch to 230V 3 phase.
If you can offer any more info on that I would be grateful. I have written to support@puhuit.com, and will post their response here, if any.
I got this response from Puhuit:
Sorry you can not converted to 240V
What can you do is that you buy a converter to convert your 240V to 110V
that is the easiest way
> I purchased the 110vac version of the T960E.
> Is there a way to wire it for 240 vac single phase?
> Can the machine be converted to 240 vac single phase?
> I would be grateful if you could send me a schematic diagram for this machine.
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Yay, the T960E finally came --for whatever reason they had a difficult time getting the shipper / pickup at warehouse coordinated. anyway, a month later and it showed, and its awesome for the price. I looked at the elements to see if I could wire them in series to get 240 operation, but its almost like they welded in the sections. Its a weird design for sure. Not sure why they cheaped out there --the rest of the oven is reasonably fabricated, just when you take off the heater covers do you see the warts. Not sure what you would do when you have to service the elements, guess its disposable?
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They buy from others and rebadge them. If you need tiny little help or simple part they want $5000+ registeration fee on $1000 Torch brand ovens (ive had a couple). They are the butt of jokes for the various smt salesmen as they dont make anything on their own but pretend. Once you need a custom part you are screwed. I almost bought one of their ovens used and it needed a blower fan. They refused to help or even point where they sourced their equipment. Since they buy from different vendors some of their stuff is decent chinese grade. Some companies try to make their money after sales, some want to solve your problem as efficiently as possible. I imagine their equipment works but my smt guys have no respect for them.
I found this thread looking while looking around for a reflow oven and am curious to know more about this statement. I have been looking at a Manncorp MC-301. Is this a re-branded unit and if so, who is the original manufacturer?
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They buy from others and rebadge them. If you need tiny little help or simple part they want $5000+ registeration fee on $1000 Torch brand ovens (ive had a couple). They are the butt of jokes for the various smt salesmen as they dont make anything on their own but pretend. Once you need a custom part you are screwed. I almost bought one of their ovens used and it needed a blower fan. They refused to help or even point where they sourced their equipment. Since they buy from different vendors some of their stuff is decent chinese grade. Some companies try to make their money after sales, some want to solve your problem as efficiently as possible. I imagine their equipment works but my smt guys have no respect for them.
I found this thread looking while looking around for a reflow oven and am curious to know more about this statement. I have been looking at a Manncorp MC-301. Is this a re-branded unit and if so, who is the original manufacturer?
Torch
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I ordered another owen:
https://www.esdshop.eu/pretavovacia-pec-hr-10-industry-4.0/ (https://www.esdshop.eu/pretavovacia-pec-hr-10-industry-4.0/)
First one works just perfect and precisesly.I have version with exhaust unit and automatic door opening.
I don't know about 110V version.
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I have the Torch T200C+, which seems to be the Torch version of the Manncorp MC-301.
Its OK.
I have a lot of trouble with it Torching my connectors.
It does say it is a convection oven, and it does have convection fans but all 6 heating elements are on the top and when they fire up they really like to melt connectors (Molex PicoClasp series) on a lead-free profile.
I wound up making a baffle shield out of an upside down aluminium BBQ tray, with some holes poked and cut out of it.
That works a bit better, but I still get some yellowing of the connectors.
Note the Torch does not have the side 'boost' elements that the Manncorp seems to have.
The control interface of the Torch was beyond garbage and I wound up replacing all the control electronics and interface with a Controleo3.
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I've had discolored (overheated) connectors
I don't think that issue was fully solved until vapour reflow came in, but it does depend on the connectors.
I use that $200 chinese oven (probably called T962) which has various threads here and is all over Ebay etc (in both original and counterfeit versions) and bought that $150 replacement controller for it, modded the fan to point outwards, added a flexible duct to go to a window, all the usual mods you find online, has two sensors so I attach the controlling one to a piece of PCB of same colour, and for prototyping is works perfectly.
But it does a bit of damage (only borderline) to SMT connectors like these
(https://peter-ftp.co.uk/screenshots/202307235017594609.jpg)
I use 60/40 solder paste of course; much better soldering and the temp is lower. Unleaded (SAC305) solder is another big factor driving vapour reflow. But nobody needs unleaded for prototyping.
Convection would of course help but is a complicated modification. But with large connectors only vapour reflow does it properly.