Reflow oven ~$5k recommendations and experience?

[RAndres24]

My use case is prototype work. I try to stay at 0603 passives and bigger and avoid BGAs. Biggest board I've run is about 5 x 8 inches. Usually more like 2 x 3 inches. I don't anticipate needing to make runs of more than 10 boards at a time, maybe twice a month.

I've used a number of 110V powered benchtop IR ovens, and would like to get something better. While I've gotten decent results from a modified 962A, I've had issues. It doesn't have to power to hit the temperature ramps called out, and I've had discolored (overheated) connectors, for instance. I can get 220 supply, and I'd like to go with convection heat. I'd like to be able to add a fume filter.

Contenders so far are the Manncorp MC-301, and the Bomir/Bokar X-Reflow306 LF-AC. Both of these a bit more than the 5k I'd like to stay under. I've just seen the Neoden IN6, and am curious how it compares. Anyone have experience with these, or a recommendation for something I've missed?

[jduncan]

For prototype work, why bother worrying about temperature ramps? A $40 toaster oven works fine.

Also, low temp solder (tin/silver/bismuth) = easy mode.

[RAndres24]

Lots of ways to get a proto to work, no doubt. I'd like to aim a little higher. Some of these will be in the hands of customers. I want to have a solid process and get repeatable results I can stand behind.

[Alicelllly2020]

Hi RAndres24,

Greetings, this is Alice from Neoden.

I'd like to introduce our reflow oven IN6 for your reference, it is a hot air type oven, with 6 zones.
~Small-size desktop soldering machine with multiple functions.
~With built-in soldering smoke filtering system, eco-friendly, and save more space.
~With 6 heating zones (upper3/down3), it supports most of regular components, LED and ICs.
~A power-saved soldering equipment, can be used in pcb prototype project or small batch PCBA manufacturing.

No hesitate to contact me if you have any questions.

Best regards,
Alice
Email: sales4@neodentech.com
Mob: +86-13588176839
Skype: Alice-Neoden

[Reckless]

I have a used 3 zone vitronics oven that I recommend, $1750.  I am in Chicago 220V convection.  Vitronics make the longest lasting no headache ovens in the industry.  I recommend it over neoden/manncorp any day as its industrial grade as opposed to prosumer. 

[jduncan]

Did you miss a zero or was that an ebay special?

[SMTech]

@Reckless seems to have a skill for finding old stuff very cheap.

Of course being a Vitronics it will also doubtless be chuffing enormous and drink power.

If you were attempting any level of actual production I would suggest getting a proper forced air conveyor oven or a Vapor Phase but as it is I don't think there is anything much wrong with something like the IN6 or even a T960/T961 if your work is within their limitations* and at least they are easy to tuck away in a corner.

* I doubt you'd have much fun soldering massive inductors or surface mount transformers for example.

[RAndres24]

From a quick search, I don't think I can put in something as big as the Vitronics devices I saw. I'm sure it does a great job!

I've seen the benchtop vapor phase ovens, and I find the idea intriguing. I'd prefer to avoid the expensive consumable and added complication. I'd like less limitations than the 962 I've used.

My main question about the Neoden is about the power/ramp times. Can a 110 powered oven really achieve the required slopes? Also, is a conveyor an effective trade off against a benchtop convection oven at this price level? Or is there much more maintenance, and other trade offs?

[Rat_Patrol]

I use a Controleo converted $40 toaster oven, about $350 all said and done for the setup.

Works wonderfully. I run 150mm x 200mm boards all the time. No issues, repeatable, reliable.

[jduncan]

Yeah seriously give the toaster oven a shot. I've turned out hundreds of boards with mine using a Mk1 eyeball controller, and if you're used to a 962 you will see immediate improvement.

Reliability is down to your QC more than your oven.

[Reckless]

@Reckless seems to have a skill for finding old stuff very cheap.

Of course being a Vitronics it will also doubtless be chuffing enormous and drink power.

If you were attempting any level of actual production I would suggest getting a proper forced air conveyor oven or a Vapor Phase but as it is I don't think there is anything much wrong with something like the IN6 or even a T960/T961 if your work is within their limitations* and at least they are easy to tuck away in a corner.

* I doubt you'd have much fun soldering massive inductors or surface mount transformers for example.

My two issues is that Neodens are expensive and they are prosumer not industrial grade.  They may be good for prototyping but why spend more for something that is less.  Maybe I am old fashioned and don't like wasting money on a new car.  I'd rather spend the money on a nicer pick place machine or stencil printer than on an oven. 

[Reckless]

Did you miss a zero or was that an ebay special?

No its legit.  Machine is running in my factory. 

[RAndres24]

Reckless, I generally agree with your line of reasoning. But, I'm going to have an easier time getting a new, modern machine with warranty support in the door here because of optics, and some other similar factors involved in the decision. I like the idea of integrated fume filtration in the Neoden. My main misgivings about it are the low power, and the added complexity of the conveyor.

I think the advantage of the Controleo over the 962 is in the convection vs IR, correct? Based on what I've read, that's a big advantage, and the reason I'm looking at the convection ovens. Toaster oven won't fly here.

[Reckless]

OPM (Other Peoples Money) aka opium

[asmi]

My main question about the Neoden is about the power/ramp times. Can a 110 powered oven really achieve the required slopes? Also, is a conveyor an effective trade off against a benchtop convection oven at this price level? Or is there much more maintenance, and other trade offs?

IN6 is a convection oven which preheats before you start the reflow, so sure it might take a while for it to heat up and be ready for the job, but once it's there, it only needs to maintain temperature. This is a nice thing about conveyor ovens - they don't need to start from the room temperature every time you load a new board. Besides, Neoden has US reseller, so maybe it's possible to arrange your visit to their office/warehouse so that you can see this oven in action. If they want your business and are confident about their products, I'm sure they would welcome such a visit. At least that's what I'do in their shoes.

[gman76]

What's a ballpark price for the Neoden IN6?  Manncorp 301?  X-Reflow306?

[almaz1c]

Seems I need to save money for mekhatronika m10 like machine to really enjoy work on it)

[sam512bb]

I used a converted toaster oven for years.  It was fine, but was a pain when I had to run through 10 or 20 PCBs that would not all fit into the oven.  I looked around and bought a Puhui T-960 (http://puhuit.com/main/page_products_t960_reflow_oven.html) and I have never looked back nor have I used by old converted toaster oven.  Basic specs are:

- 5 Zone comprised of 3 up and 2 down
- Just over 3 feet in length weighing about 200 lbs
- Needs 220VAC single phase or can be wired for higher 3-phase voltages
- I paid about $1200 for the unit with about $600 shipping... about $2K by the time I had it in my hands.

For the table, I welded one out of metal so that there would be no issues with regards to supporting the weight or residual temp issues.  Also I added ducting to exhaust any fumes that might result.

The only real caveat is that it takes about 10 minutes to come up to temp, but it works fantastic and allows me to continually run as many PCBs I like.  I have used it with 2/4/6 layer PCBs with fine pitch (0.5mm) LQFP/QFN, BGA (0.65mm), and 0603/0402 parts with no issues.  If anything I may tweak the various zone temps or conveyor speeds depending upon the solder paste, etc.  Overall I am very pleased with the unit and it certainly addresses my PCB needs from 1 to 50 at a time.

Cheers,

Sam

[ar__systems]

I have a used 3 zone vitronics oven that I recommend, $1750.  I am in Chicago 220V convection.  Vitronics make the longest lasting no headache ovens in the industry.  I recommend it over neoden/manncorp any day as its industrial grade as opposed to prosumer.

What's wrong with mancorp?
I have a used mancorp oven, it very much industrial. Heavy gauge steel. All made from replaceable electronics - relays, temp controllers etc. It can last forever.

[Reckless]

They buy from others and rebadge them.  If you need tiny little help or simple part they want $5000+ registeration fee on $1000 Torch brand ovens (ive had a couple).  They are the butt of jokes for the various smt salesmen as they dont make anything on their own but pretend.  Once you need a custom part you are screwed.  I almost bought one of their ovens used and it needed a blower fan.  They refused to help or even point where they sourced their equipment.  Since they buy from different vendors some of their stuff is decent chinese grade.  Some companies try to make their money after sales, some want to solve your problem as efficiently as possible.  I imagine their equipment works but my smt guys have no respect for them. 

[ar__systems]

that's the thing, mine does not have anything custom, aside from the enclosure. Ok fine there are aluminum gears that drive the belt, but they are not going to fail in the next 20 years.

[dirtcooker]

... I looked around and bought a Puhui T-960 (http://puhuit.com/main/page_products_t960_reflow_oven.html) and I have never looked back
Cheers,
Sam

Amazon is selling the t-960E for $300: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07T1JB4HJ
They must be overstocked or clearing inventory to sell them basically for what it costs to ship, or maybe its an Amazon mispricing. I just ordered one, so we'll see. I only do prototypes, and was looking for a small desktop reflow oven, when my search landed on this. I have a small shop, and this is a bit large, but for $300 I couldn't pass it up.

[Chad.Wagner]

Neoden IN6 Seems to be working great for me!

[Reckless]

... I looked around and bought a Puhui T-960 (http://puhuit.com/main/page_products_t960_reflow_oven.html) and I have never looked back
Cheers,
Sam

Amazon is selling the t-960E for $300: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07T1JB4HJ
They must be overstocked or clearing inventory to sell them basically for what it costs to ship, or maybe its an Amazon mispricing. I just ordered one, so we'll see. I only do prototypes, and was looking for a small desktop reflow oven, when my search landed on this. I have a small shop, and this is a bit large, but for $300 I couldn't pass it up.

If it was covnection heating I might have been interested.  Infrared is uneven heat in my experience. 

[dirtcooker]

If it was covnection heating I might have been interested.  Infrared is uneven heat in my experience.

according to the manufacturer, it is a combination of infrared and hot air:
" This machine selects the intelligent level sirocco and rapid infrared heating technology controlling, equipped with special design wind wheel"
https://www.puhuit.com/main/page_products_t960e_reflow_oven.html
The vendor has shipped it, I had my doubts as I only paid $300. They sold out shortly after I posted about it, did anyone else here buy one off Amazon?