Author Topic: Neoden YY1 issues  (Read 2587 times)

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Offline Michael_NTopic starter

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Neoden YY1 issues
« on: January 06, 2023, 12:39:04 pm »
Hi,
I have now had the YY1 for some months now. Am I the only one who is really challenged by the feeders? The mechanism for peeling the tape is so unreliable... it is almost hard to find the words to explain how bad it is.
Just the fact that you potentionally for each project have to adjust the peeling force is one thing... a bad thing. But the peeling force varies over the day so I find myself adjusting the peelers more than I actually produce.

What is your experince with it and have anyone thought of a mod to make the peelers work?

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Michael
 
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Offline newto

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Re: Neoden YY1 issues
« Reply #1 on: January 06, 2023, 03:03:53 pm »
There's some discussion over in this thread: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/manufacture/neoden-yy1-pick-and-place-machine-with-under-$3k-price-for-hobbiestlow-vol-usag/

One thing I've noticed a lot is that if you leave it for a few hours or days, the rubber will start to stick to the rod. Turning the wheel in reverse a small amount will "break" the extra friction, and let the unit run better. I've also noticed that some positions work better than others for tricky tapes. Thin plastic tapes seem to cause me the most grief, but I improved the reliability a lot by moving them to a position close to the motor, they were getting pulled a lot by the peeler when they were at the very front.

At the end of the day, it's a machine that works best when setup, and the let run on one design, or sets of designs that share components. Are you adjusting both the wheels, and the tension bar in the feeder?
 

Online jmelson

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Re: Neoden YY1 issues
« Reply #2 on: January 06, 2023, 11:00:53 pm »
Well, a few years ago I had a Philips CSM84 (made by Yamaha) with mechanical feeders that were advanced by an air cylinder on the head.  The biggest problem with those feeders was cover tape pull mechanism.  In general, it was too weak, but it was worst on 0.1 uF 0805 caps. I eventually found that the cover tape glue was VERY irregular.  one foot of tape would come off almost if you shook the tape hard, the next foot would be glued so strongly that it would rip the paper tape apart.  A fix I used was to put a C clamp on the empty component tape coming out the back of the feeder to give it some extra pull.  I upgraded to a Quad QSA30A (made by Samsung) machine to get better placement accuracy.  But the Quad feeders are "electronic" with motors in them, and have MUCH stronger pull on the cover tape.  I occasionally have other issues with these feeders, but they do seem to work better than the Yamaha style ones.  I'm not sure this helps you much, but even the high-end machines had some peel issues.  (My 2 machines were both over $100K new.)
Jon
 
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Offline Michael_NTopic starter

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Re: Neoden YY1 issues
« Reply #3 on: January 09, 2023, 02:23:47 pm »
I have followed the other thread and its quite interesting. There just not so much talk about the peeling issues.

I'm also aware of the problem with the peeling wheels sticking after it has been sitting. Each morning I roll them by hand just to make them "break free"
I just got really frustrated last week, spening so much time on adjusting the feeders... it's really not a good design, and it should never have been released.

I have also tried to adjust the tension spring below the tape... but it does not solve all problems.

I also have a Neoden3V, that machine has a different peeling system. It does not rely on friction and it only peels the reel that is avanced. It is a much better machine overall. For me it has been a machine I just start and "almost" walk-a-way from.
Sometimes a reel can act up and make problems. But I would say the machine is pretty solid.
I is sad that they haven't used the same peeling system on the YY1. 
 

Offline tomgat

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Re: Neoden YY1 issues
« Reply #4 on: January 09, 2023, 08:37:33 pm »
I dont have a YY1, but used to have the exact same issue on my Charmhigh CHMT36VB (ie. a less functional NeoDen YY1).  I was constantly adjusting the film wheel on individual components.  I guess what I am saying is that I feel your pain as it was extremely frustrating.  I still ran hundreds of boards on that little machine, though.  It would get the job done, but was a full-time job just managing its quirks.  Im guessing the YY1 is similar.

The film peeling issue was the sole reason why I finally took the plunge and upgraded to a larger cheap chinese PNP machine that uses Yamaha feeders, and I have never looked back.  If you are doing more than a couple boards, real feeders are an extremely nice feature to have, and saves an enormous amount of time loading/unloading even when doing small quantities.
 

Online 48X24X48X

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Re: Neoden YY1 issues
« Reply #5 on: January 10, 2023, 01:15:32 am »
I used to have a push-drag feeder based machine. It is just not consistent enough to be used. Even the tape feeling mechanism is too strong at the lowest setting resulting in continuous tape snapping off. Sold the machine off just after few months to another chap and got myself a CL feeder based machine. The chap that bought my machine too ended up buying the same CL based model as mine as he too got tired of the earlier machine I sold him. All these lower end feeder system is just too fiddly to work with and you waste time adjusting and baby sit them all the time.

Offline Michael_NTopic starter

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Re: Neoden YY1 issues
« Reply #6 on: January 12, 2023, 06:47:48 am »
I'm running a business, so I'm doing batches from a few boards to several thousands. So yeah babysitting a machine is not viable. I'm looking at buying used Juki or a new Neoden K1850 machine. My solution right now is that I have board a second Neoden3V Adv, So I have 2 now and then I will use the YY1 for only big/tall components. For me using the YY1 for other compoents is not possible unless you have plenty of time and patience on hand. which I don't:)
 

Offline sinewave

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Re: Neoden YY1 issues
« Reply #7 on: January 26, 2023, 06:26:04 am »
I haven't had any issues so far on the YY1, places 0402s perfectly and 0201s are a struggle but doable, feeder issues are non-existent, so I can just hit play and walk away. The only minor issue that I have is occasionally the needle for the feeder will hit the tape and lose some components but they are only passives so no issues with that (no I do not own a NeoDen YY1 but I have access to one, and yes I am still Josh from the mailbag video)
 

Offline HallMark

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Re: Neoden YY1 issues
« Reply #8 on: June 05, 2023, 05:50:39 am »
I have been facing Feeder issues. Right now feeder is moving Reel when it goes to move other so that eventually goes off on pick and needel position.
 

Offline Smallsmt

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Re: Neoden YY1 issues
« Reply #9 on: June 06, 2023, 11:54:51 am »
I used to have a push-drag feeder based machine. It is just not consistent enough to be used. Even the tape feeling mechanism is too strong at the lowest setting resulting in continuous tape snapping off. Sold the machine off just after few months to another chap and got myself a CL feeder based machine. The chap that bought my machine too ended up buying the same CL based model as mine as he too got tired of the earlier machine I sold him. All these lower end feeder system is just too fiddly to work with and you waste time adjusting and baby sit them all the time.

The reason is you never adjusted well and there are many satisfied users operating these kind of feeders.
Even the person bought your old machine was able to operate it well.

Drag feeder based machine have additional problems and clear tape peeling depends on so many different factors.
The simplest way is to use it for paper tapes because there are no problems.
Plastic tapes can cause problems if they are old or cover tape is too sticky.

Best option is to use a mix of automatic feeders for often used components and plastic tapes and cost effective feeder solutions for paper tapes and rarely used components.

These discussions always mix the demands of hobby users and professional machines.
When someone buys a NEODEN YY, not much can be expected at this price. Here you have to do some work, but it is a cost-effective solution.
If I then work with CL feeders or electric feeders the price difference quickly becomes clear.
Another aspect is the service quality and support from the manufacturer which also costs money.
And finally the long term availability of the components and modularity of the construction to keep the machine in operation over a longer period of time.

 

Online 48X24X48X

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Re: Neoden YY1 issues
« Reply #10 on: June 07, 2023, 05:18:36 am »
Not going to derail this YY1 discussion here but the gentlemen who bought the machine from me eventually moved on from that machine. 😅  and bought a new one just like my current machine.


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