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Electronics => Manufacturing & Assembly => Topic started by: revenue_controls on April 18, 2019, 09:52:44 am

Title: SmallSMT PNP adventure, learning and documenting
Post by: revenue_controls on April 18, 2019, 09:52:44 am
Greetings to all,
I am starting on a learning adventure with my soon to be delivered PNP machine. It is a SmallSMT VP-2500HP-CL32. https://www.smallsmt.biz/vp2500hpcl32-pnp-machine/ (https://www.smallsmt.biz/vp2500hpcl32-pnp-machine/)

My goal is to document my experiences (videos and this forum) with the machine; learning, setup, quality of build, usage and maintaining. Additionally I will give you my experiences with the manufacture, sales support,warranty...

I'm not an expert, so don't jump down my throat and nit-pick terms I use and other options I should have taken. This is just the adventure in real time.

It is my hope that this will help the EEVblog community and the manufacture, SmallSMT.

The story so far...
I have been hand assembling surface mount boards for several years and have found that I am tired if it. Also my need to produce greater quantities of boards (200/month). Another big reason is the fact that I just wanted a new toy to play with. I have 5 different designs each with around 50 parts.

Speed and a conveyor system are not important to me, however maximum part height capability, number of feeders and precision is. I did also want to buy from a US based company.  And of course, cost was a factor. I was trying to keep the cost under $15k.

I checked out several companies websites, called some and requested quotations from a few.
neoden, SMTmax and others I cant remember, both US and China.

The neoden4 looked good, cost wise and it has the neat feeder option but I was not happy with the part height spec. The SMTmax machine, which I received a quote for, looks like it is made out of extruded aluminum pieces. Which I know will start to get loose at some point.
 
I first starting looking for a machine around November of 2018 and was drawn to SmallSMT because of the built in feeders, which I thought would be a good way to save the cost of the cartridges. And the large part height spec (20mm or 22mm, I'm not sure witch of their spec sheets is correct)

More to come... Steve
Title: Re: SmallSMT PNP adventure, learning and documenting
Post by: mrpackethead on April 18, 2019, 10:31:09 am
   Not to be too discouraging but we've heard lots of promise from Small SMT for many years, but  nobodys of the supposabdly hundreds of people who have bought them have ever come back to do a review of it.  This will be awesome.   We've also learned to be cautious of first time posters, as we never can be sure if they are sockpuppet accounts.. ( sigh, the pcb fabs are the worst! (.

I belive that the SMT machines are manufactured by a chinese company and are rebadged for SmallSMT. Or at least they used to be.  (http://www.yushengtech.com/index.php?lang=en (http://www.yushengtech.com/index.php?lang=en))  If you look on taobao and ali, you can often find them listed, ( at significnatly lower cost than smallSMTs price ).   I did seriously look at SMallSMT a few years ago, but was troubled by their business structure, which set off alarm bells to me.    That may have changed of course.

All that said, really looking forward to hearing from a genuine end user.
Title: Re: SmallSMT PNP adventure, learning and documenting
Post by: revenue_controls on April 18, 2019, 11:09:03 am
Well, glad to see you have a positive attitude.
I received 3 tracking numbers from Germany this morning, so something is coming.
Title: Re: SmallSMT PNP adventure, learning and documenting
Post by: mrpackethead on April 18, 2019, 11:12:23 am
Is your device shipping from Germany?
Title: Re: SmallSMT PNP adventure, learning and documenting
Post by: revenue_controls on April 18, 2019, 11:27:20 am
I'm not sure. There is more to the "story so far" I have not told you yet. Stay tuned. I don't want to jump around in the adventure. I will post another episode tomorrow.

Title: Re: SmallSMT PNP adventure, learning and documenting
Post by: mrpackethead on April 18, 2019, 11:40:10 am
I'm not sure. There is more to the "story so far" I have not told you yet. Stay tuned. I don't want to jump around in the adventure. I will post another episode tomorrow.

If you do a search on the tracking numbers, you'll be able to see where it came from.  Did you pay SmallSMT to a chinese / HK bank account or to a european one?
Title: Re: SmallSMT PNP adventure, learning and documenting
Post by: revenue_controls on April 18, 2019, 08:58:53 pm
more back story...
it turns out that the built in feeders (push feeders) have a part height limit of 5.6mm and I was told that they were not as dependable as the cartridge feeders. So I would still need a machine with the cartridge (CL) feeders. I selected the VP-2500HP-CL32, and some CL feeders which pushed me to my budget limit. $2000 of it is shipping!

I had many pre-sales questions about the machine and its capabilities and it took me several emails to Michael (of SmallSMT) to figure out what were the important things I needed to know. I think there was a small language barrier, and a few times I needed to ask a question again to get clarification (also due to my learning curve). I sent Michael my BOM to make sure the machine could do what I wanted. Its should be able to do about 90% of the placement of my parts. Additionally I requested from SmallSMT an existing customer contact that I could talk to and get their thoughts on SmallSMT and their machine. This went well and the customer was happy with the machine and did not have any major problems. I requested a copy of the manual and a software demo download. They gave me a password to their site download area. The manual is ok. There are a lot of configuration settings! I could not get a copy of the software which is very disappointing, I hope its not shit! I believe the software is protected with a hardware key.

I'm not sure of the history/ownership of the SmallSMT company but I think Michael is in Germany and handles technical support questions and may have designed parts of the machine??? Sunny is somewhere in China and it looks like she is involved in generating quotes and maybe production/shipping schedule. They were both very responsive during the pre-sales stage. We will see what the after sales support is like...

After understanding the capabilities of the machine, I was now ready to place the order (now mid February). I requested a new quotation that included the machine, CL feeders and a stand. The quote stated that the machine and feeders would ship from China and the stand would ship from Germany.

They wanted 50% with the order and 50% before shipping. I went to my bank and wired the
full payment (to avoid the additional bank fees). It takes a lot of faith and courage to wire $15K to a company in China! They acknowledged the payment on Feb 21, 2019 and told me the machine went into production an it would ship in 6 weeks...

Stay tuned for more...

Title: Re: SmallSMT PNP adventure, learning and documenting
Post by: TJ232 on April 19, 2019, 02:13:54 am
Do you mean you wired the money to someone personal account not a company account? Brrr, scary and strange enough these days...
Looking forward to read the entire saga  :popcorn:

I am asking because I still have a dream about a small and versatile PNP machine that can fit in the office for small pre-production testing runs.
We have some CHMT36VA and a working OpenPNP for now, but I need to close the gap between them and the Essemtec production line that obviously doesn't fit in the Office :)
Title: Re: SmallSMT PNP adventure, learning and documenting
Post by: OwO on April 19, 2019, 02:40:40 am
Do you mean you wired the money to someone personal account not a company account? Brrr, scary and strange enough these days...
Looking forward to read the entire saga  :popcorn:
That is completely normal here, it's done to avoid bureaucracy. However you must confirm the account details in an email with the company's public contact address cc'd, so that a rouge employee can't embezzle the funds (allegedly this has happened before).
Title: Re: SmallSMT PNP adventure, learning and documenting
Post by: SMTech on April 19, 2019, 07:25:49 am
Do you mean you wired the money to someone personal account not a company account? Brrr, scary and strange enough these days...
Looking forward to read the entire saga  :popcorn:

I am asking because I still have a dream about a small and versatile PNP machine that can fit in the office for small pre-production testing runs.
We have some CHMT36VA and a working OpenPNP for now, but I need to close the gap between them and the Essemtec production line that obviously doesn't fit in the Office :)
This would bridge the gap.. (although an ATOZ would be even better)
However as an Essemtec user I wouldn't put them on too high a pedestal, ePlace is nice pretty software and makes for a very straightforwards workflow but they are a niche machine in many ways and some of the advantages machines like this have get eaten away at by the bigger boys as time goes by. 
Title: Re: SmallSMT PNP adventure, learning and documenting
Post by: mrpackethead on April 19, 2019, 07:53:08 am
more back story...
it turns out that the built in feeders (push feeders) have a part height limit of 5.6mm and I was told that they were not as dependable as the cartridge feeders. So I would still need a machine with the cartridge (CL) feeders. I selected the VP-2500HP-CL32, and some CL feeders which pushed me to my budget limit. $2000 of it is shipping!
8mm CL feeders ( clones but good ) should cost you about $USD60-$65.     How much did you pay for them.   I am yet to see a push feeder that is relialbe, and will keep working reel after reel of part.  But its a cheap way to make it.

Quote
Additionally I requested from SmallSMT an existing customer contact that I could talk to and get their thoughts on SmallSMT and their machine.
We've been hoping a bonafide customer does come and do a review.  Just still waiting for one.   The only person i know who had  bought a a Jushengtech machine and dealt with Sunny,    had an absolutely terrible result, the machine was virtually unusable.   That was however in a previous incarnation, ( cna't remmber what Sunny used to call her self then ).   

 This went well and the customer was happy with the machine and did not have any major problems. I requested a copy of the manual and a software demo download. They gave me a password to their site download area. The manual is ok. There are a lot of configuration settings! I could not get a copy of the software which is very disappointing, I hope its not shit! I believe the software is protected with a hardware key.

Quote
I'm not sure of the history/ownership of the SmallSMT company but I think Michael is in Germany and handles technical support questions and may have designed parts of the machine???
Follow the money.   It did not make sense back then and it still seems odd now.  Its not a typical chinese setup either.

Quote
Sunny is somewhere in China and it looks like he
"She"

Quote
Stay tuned for more...

I hope this works out well for you.
Title: Re: SmallSMT PNP adventure, learning and documenting
Post by: revenue_controls on April 19, 2019, 08:33:07 am
Continuing the adventure...

In our last episode we made the full payment and waited six weeks to check on the progress of the order...

Note: I am going to tell the whole story, I think and am hoping they will come through with excellent customer service. Again, my goal here is to document my experiences with the PNP machine and the manufactures service and support to help the EEVblog community and provide honest feedback to the manufacture.

Michael sent me email that day and said they will ship the machine in one week. He also offered to Skype with me to discuss further if I wanted to. But I did not. I was OK to wait another week.

Thank you, Michael.

Yesterday (April, 17 2019) I received shipping notifications via email. Three packages sent from Germany. I was curious to know if the machine was part of this shipment, I was expecting it to come from China. Michael told me no, it is just the stand.

The three packages are due to get here (Virginia, USA) tomorrow (Friday)! Two day shipping! Nice.

I will video the unboxing and the build! Break out your popcorn...






Title: Re: SmallSMT PNP adventure, learning and documenting
Post by: mrpackethead on April 19, 2019, 09:14:58 am
I would be interested to know the breakdown of pricing if you want to share it?
Title: Re: SmallSMT PNP adventure, learning and documenting
Post by: revenue_controls on April 19, 2019, 09:21:39 am
all their pricing is on their site.
Title: Re: SmallSMT PNP adventure, learning and documenting
Post by: mrpackethead on April 19, 2019, 03:17:17 pm
Do you mean you wired the money to someone personal account not a company account? Brrr, scary and strange enough these days...
Looking forward to read the entire saga  :popcorn:
That is completely normal here, it's done to avoid bureaucracy. However you must confirm the account details in an email with the company's public contact address cc'd, so that a rouge employee can't embezzle the funds (allegedly this has happened before).

Maybe your normal, but not mine.  I've been trading with chinese companys since 2006 and I have not paid into personal bank accounts at all.   In this case, i would ask smallSMT for its chinese business licence number.       

Title: Re: SmallSMT PNP adventure, learning and documenting
Post by: TJ232 on April 19, 2019, 04:08:15 pm
Do you mean you wired the money to someone personal account not a company account? Brrr, scary and strange enough these days...
Looking forward to read the entire saga  :popcorn:
That is completely normal here, it's done to avoid bureaucracy. However you must confirm the account details in an email with the company's public contact address cc'd, so that a rouge employee can't embezzle the funds (allegedly this has happened before).

I know quite well how the system works out there. I was located in HK for a while, worked and still working with a lot of Chinese companies and I fully understand a lot of things, including Chinese bureaucracy and the big Chinese appetite on tricking the system and tax evasion as national sport. Actually is not even seen as tax evasion, it's just considered a "smart" way to do business out there, I am right or not?

How do you consider this type of payment, avoiding bureaucracy or tax evasion?:)

 
Title: Re: SmallSMT PNP adventure, learning and documenting
Post by: TJ232 on April 19, 2019, 04:35:10 pm
Do you mean you wired the money to someone personal account not a company account? Brrr, scary and strange enough these days...
Looking forward to read the entire saga  :popcorn:

I am asking because I still have a dream about a small and versatile PNP machine that can fit in the office for small pre-production testing runs.
We have some CHMT36VA and a working OpenPNP for now, but I need to close the gap between them and the Essemtec production line that obviously doesn't fit in the Office :)
This would bridge the gap.. (although an ATOZ would be even better)
However as an Essemtec user I wouldn't put them on too high a pedestal, ePlace is nice pretty software and makes for a very straightforwards workflow but they are a niche machine in many ways and some of the advantages machines like this have get eaten away at by the bigger boys as time goes by.

Do you mean the PP-050 one?
I've seen one working about 5-6 years ago, pretty decent for that time, I remember that the owner said that the full price was about 60-70K, including some feeders and the second camera for the large components. It was a 1 nozzle only with tool changer. Another thing that I remember was that to be able to import any data from any CAD package you had to pay some extra money just for that.

Is this still available as new/refurb from manufacturer or just on the second hand market? Are they still doing active support on it? I count at least 50% of the long-term value of a PNP machine in the manufacturer after-sale, parts and maintenance support. I'm sure you know very well why :)

I am not putting Essemtec on any pedestal, they are just some decent built machines, with decent software and they are doing the right job in the right place.
Of course they have their own quirks but it looks like to be less annoying than other PNP machines have. So I would say decent level babysitting.
No machine breakdown incident to report, and this is something to count about. Maintenance at very basic level and that's it.

I don't consider Essemtec to be build for speed, for that I would look at dedicated turret style chipshooters from Universal, EuroPlacer, etc.
For those who like engineering porn this is how is looking a high speed machine head: http://www.uic.com/the-anatomy-of-a-superior-placement-head/ (http://www.uic.com/the-anatomy-of-a-superior-placement-head/)


 
Title: Re: SmallSMT PNP adventure, learning and documenting
Post by: SMTech on April 19, 2019, 05:22:49 pm
ooops, in my haste I meant to paste a link to a Dima HP110 thats currently on the UK 2nd user market. https://www.grovesales.co.uk/dima-hybrid-hp-110-pick-place/ (https://www.grovesales.co.uk/dima-hybrid-hp-110-pick-place/)

I'm not sure what support looks like but presumably the NordsonDima  dispensing machines share quite a lot of technology between the two. However I'm not sure I would be happy with the level of support Styno has managed to rustle up for his older optimat machine. There didn't seem to be many installed in the UK when we were shopping which was one of the things that put me off buying new but I did see both an HP and MP in action with very satisfied customers. I quite liked their compact feeder that didn't try an integrate a reel holder, seemed like a good idea as was the compact tray changer.

Also worth pointing out most manufacturers charge extra for "CAD import" without getting hands on the software its hard to know exactly what it does, some packages really can read CAD data others are just giving you tools to manipulate a centroid file from its raw format into what the machine wants & matching up package and component names with the machine libraries (which is what Essemtec does). Other tools out there can do the same job like (Aegis CircuitCam PCBSynergy) and in some cases that is what they are selling you. In my historic quotes, iPulse wanted £7k for software and Dima wanted £1500 for the Cad4Dima package as did Essemtec although in the case of the last two this was very specifically covering being able to run that software on a different PC, I' not sure you can separate/disable the centroid import tools in Essemtecs ePlace program.

I think it is a shame companies don't release special versions of their software for people to get a feel of how the machine works or even get to work on some of their CAD data while the machine is in production/shipping.
Title: Re: SmallSMT PNP adventure, learning and documenting
Post by: SMTech on April 19, 2019, 06:25:15 pm


How do you consider this type of payment, avoiding bureaucracy or tax evasion?:)

Its got to be at least a little bit dodgy, wonder what number goes on the customs value paperwork.
Title: Re: SmallSMT PNP adventure, learning and documenting
Post by: mrpackethead on April 19, 2019, 06:31:55 pm

How do you consider this type of payment, avoiding bureaucracy or tax evasion?:)

I see that Wenzhou SMALL Technology co. ltd is now listed as a a company in China, with a licence. Thats an improvement.   Its owner is listed as Wu Xiao Juan..  Given that Juan (隽) is a womans name, its unlikely to be Micheal.    I'm sure that Micheal told me that he owned it. Maybe i'm wrong.
Title: Re: SmallSMT PNP adventure, learning and documenting
Post by: Smallsmt on April 20, 2019, 06:49:33 am

How do you consider this type of payment, avoiding bureaucracy or tax evasion?:)

I see that Wenzhou SMALL Technology co. ltd is now listed as a a company in China, with a licence. Thats an improvement.   Its owner is listed as Wu Xiao Juan..  Given that Juan (隽) is a womans name, its unlikely to be Micheal.    I'm sure that Micheal told me that he owned it. Maybe i'm wrong.

I am impressed!
You can find easily on our website https://www.smallsmt.biz/about-1/ (https://www.smallsmt.biz/about-1/)
Title: Re: SmallSMT PNP adventure, learning and documenting
Post by: ebastler on April 20, 2019, 07:07:17 am
I see that Wenzhou SMALL Technology co. ltd is now listed as a a company in China, with a licence. Thats an improvement.   Its owner is listed as Wu Xiao Juan..  Given that Juan (隽) is a womans name, its unlikely to be Micheal.    I'm sure that Micheal told me that he owned it. Maybe i'm wrong.
I am impressed!
You can find easily on our website https://www.smallsmt.biz/about-1/ (https://www.smallsmt.biz/about-1/)

And you can see the folks here:
https://www.smallsmt.biz/home/contact/ (https://www.smallsmt.biz/home/contact/)

Sunny = Wu = Juan, it seems.  :)
Title: Re: SmallSMT PNP adventure, learning and documenting
Post by: mrpackethead on April 20, 2019, 10:53:24 am
Sunny = Wu = Juan, it seems.  :)

In deed, and a 70% shareholder.  there is another party listed as a 30% shareholder.   

@Micheal, who owns SmallSMT?
Title: Re: SmallSMT PNP adventure, learning and documenting
Post by: Smallsmt on April 21, 2019, 01:07:02 am
Xiaojuan Wu is the owner (sunny) easier to remind for western people;)
Title: Re: SmallSMT PNP adventure, learning and documenting
Post by: revenue_controls on April 21, 2019, 06:25:49 am
Continuing...

I received the stand via UPS in three boxes/foam rapping. All were in good condition and wrapped well. I started to video the unboxing and assembly but it got tedious very quickly. I will include some completed pictures. 

As I removed the items from the packaging, I was impressed by the top quality. The extruded rails and the assembly hardware are all heavy duty. Not stamped steel, but cast aluminum right angle mounting brackets with M8 1.25 bolts. The nut rail inserts were also of high quality and have a spring loaded ball bearing on them which keeps them in position during assembly!

The included manual has pictures but can use more assembly notes. I did not know at the time that by popping off some tabs on the angle brackets they can be used in different assembly connections. I emailed Michael and he filled me in quickly. Also note the rail nuts can be popped into the rail at any point in the rail, they do not need to be slid in from the end of the rail.

Assembly takes several hours, there are a lot of bolts. I left most of them loose until finishing to allow for repositioning. When done, I checked every bolt and really cranked down on it. I known around here for stripping bolts on a regular basis, but I did not strip any of these bolts and nuts! These are not cheep crap. I'm glad to pay for something of quality, Its paying for disappointing crap that will give the manufacture a bad reputation.

However, I did make some improvements to the caster mounting, adjustable leveling feet and the parts reel holders (Will upload pictures soon).

Modification to the caster mounting. I added a bushing to the bolt because the hole in the caster is too big.

Added lock nuts to the leveling feet

Added some rubber washers to the reel mounting rods

a good tool to have; the metal part of a file folder hanger


This stand is very nice, top quality and very strong. Nice job SmallSMT!
Title: Re: SmallSMT PNP adventure, learning and documenting
Post by: revenue_controls on April 21, 2019, 06:56:52 am
pictures...
Title: Re: SmallSMT PNP adventure, learning and documenting
Post by: revenue_controls on April 21, 2019, 06:57:55 am
pictures...
Title: Re: SmallSMT PNP adventure, learning and documenting
Post by: revenue_controls on April 21, 2019, 06:58:54 am
pics
Title: Re: SmallSMT PNP adventure, learning and documenting
Post by: revenue_controls on April 21, 2019, 06:59:35 am
pics
Title: Re: SmallSMT PNP adventure, learning and documenting
Post by: revenue_controls on April 21, 2019, 07:01:12 am
pics
Title: Re: SmallSMT PNP adventure, learning and documenting
Post by: IconicPCB on April 21, 2019, 08:38:02 pm
Seems like Mr Packethead is looking to place an order. Ibet he is waiting for the forthcoming exhibition to purchase the show machine at a decent discount.
Title: Re: SmallSMT PNP adventure, learning and documenting
Post by: revenue_controls on April 21, 2019, 09:16:32 pm
Michael, send my commission check to my same shipping address!
Title: Re: SmallSMT PNP adventure, learning and documenting
Post by: Kjelt on April 21, 2019, 10:22:00 pm
Looks good :)

Quote
The nut rail inserts were also of high quality and have a spring loaded ball bearing on them which keeps them in position during assembly!
Those cost € 0.18 vs €0,12 without the ball, but they work nice , used them also on my CNC build  ;)
https://www.smt-montagetechnik.de/produkte/44.htm (https://www.smt-montagetechnik.de/produkte/44.htm)

Title: Re: SmallSMT PNP adventure, learning and documenting
Post by: mrpackethead on April 22, 2019, 05:32:33 am
Michael, send my commission check to my same shipping address!

You'll probably need to ask Sunny for that.
Title: Re: SmallSMT PNP adventure, learning and documenting
Post by: Smallsmt on April 22, 2019, 05:42:50 am
Good news you assembled the kit well.
It's a big puzzle.
Title: Re: SmallSMT PNP adventure, learning and documenting
Post by: revenue_controls on April 22, 2019, 06:51:22 am
Thanks, it was fun.
I Added platform to the bottom.

Is one needed on the top for the machine?
Or does it mount directly to the top rails?
Title: Re: SmallSMT PNP adventure, learning and documenting
Post by: mrpackethead on April 23, 2019, 08:47:40 am
When is the PNP machine arriving?
Title: Re: SmallSMT PNP adventure, learning and documenting
Post by: revenue_controls on April 23, 2019, 09:15:51 am
Sunny confirmed the CL feeders order quantities this morning, so I hope they will ship it soon. However I hope they are not rushing it out because of my posts.  I would not want them to jeopardize the build quality.
Title: Re: SmallSMT PNP adventure, learning and documenting
Post by: IconicPCB on April 23, 2019, 11:24:40 am
Looking at the images i guess the platform on the side of the frame is support for reels on the push feeder side.

Seems like You have a variety of push feeder widths in Your machine setup.

How did You decide on the mix of feeder widths?
Title: Re: SmallSMT PNP adventure, learning and documenting
Post by: revenue_controls on April 23, 2019, 12:11:09 pm
The spacing of the push feeder reel separators in the pictures is completely random at this point. However, to determine the feeder widths, you need to know what size (height mostly) parts the machine is capable of dispensing, how many slots the machine has, how many feeders the machine has and of each type, the availability of packaging for each part in your BOM, and your BOM. 
Title: Re: SmallSMT PNP adventure, learning and documenting
Post by: revenue_controls on April 23, 2019, 12:18:25 pm
There is a lot of trading off, and different ways to get it configured. I think (hope) what I ordered will be close to what I need. It will depend a lot on the machines actual performance. I may end up getting different feeders to dial in the best feeder configuration for my BOM.
Title: Re: SmallSMT PNP adventure, learning and documenting
Post by: Smallsmt on April 23, 2019, 10:22:01 pm
Thanks, it was fun.
I Added platform to the bottom.

Is one needed on the top for the machine?
Or does it mount directly to the top rails?

There is no plate needed on top of table the machine screws on the rails.
Title: Re: SmallSMT PNP adventure, learning and documenting
Post by: Smallsmt on April 23, 2019, 10:26:45 pm
When is the PNP machine arriving?
I think within the next 7 days it need one week shipping time.
Title: Re: SmallSMT PNP adventure, learning and documenting
Post by: SWR on April 25, 2019, 07:21:02 am
My VP-2500DP WNE just arrived today, so now it's time for unboxing and final assembly.
The box was very solid and there doesn't seem to be any transportation damage by the first inspection.

It's got 79 reels, 18 strips, 7 sticks, 68 alu tray squares and 300x300mm area that is shared between PCB and plastic component trays. I'm looking forward to trying it out and reading about your experiences with the VP machines.
Title: Re: SmallSMT PNP adventure, learning and documenting
Post by: revenue_controls on April 25, 2019, 07:59:45 am
I'm looking forward to it as well. I think they just shipped my machine. How long did you wait for your machine? 
Title: Re: SmallSMT PNP adventure, learning and documenting
Post by: SWR on April 25, 2019, 05:55:35 pm
About 10 days shipping. :-+

This is my fist P&P so I have a rather long list of tasks ahead of me before I'm ready to roll with it:
-Assembling the optional extras (two extra feeder drivers, vibration feeder, strip feeder, large tray and dispenser)
-Installing moisture trap
-Connecting air compressor
-Wall mounting above table to allow room for reels and reduce table shake
-Design and 3D print individual reel holders
    The 3 trays included with the machine with 28 7" reel slots have the following issues:
    -Takes up more room (height) if you want to change reels individually
    -Have higher drag resistance than reels rotating on a center hub (not sure if this is a problem?)
-Installing software
-Interfacing to DesignSpark PCB
-Structuring P&P friendly component library
-Building P&P friendly component library
-Finishing schematic & layout
-Ordering components
-Ordering PCB with stencil
-Test run with double side tape

Title: Re: SmallSMT PNP adventure, learning and documenting
Post by: Smallsmt on April 26, 2019, 04:42:01 am
Steve,

the reason was part shortage first and we are sorry for the delay.

Our production time is normally 5 to 6 weeeks.
Thew DP machine is simpler to produce need 4 weeks only.

Your machine has free dispenser unit installed I hope this could be nice for you.

Best regards
Michael
Title: Re: SmallSMT PNP adventure, learning and documenting
Post by: SWR on April 26, 2019, 05:06:01 am
WTF, I have been waiting 9 weeks. Are you saying 10 days of actual shipping time or total of 10 days from ordering the machine?
It was 10 days of actual shipping excluding the time to build the machine.
Title: Re: SmallSMT PNP adventure, learning and documenting
Post by: mrpackethead on April 26, 2019, 05:50:49 am
Your machine has free dispenser unit installed I hope this could be nice for you.

Social media / forums are powerful motivaters.   
Title: Re: SmallSMT PNP adventure, learning and documenting
Post by: mrpackethead on April 26, 2019, 06:49:09 pm
They wanted 50% with the order and 50% before shipping. I went to my bank and wired the
full payment (to avoid the additional bank fees). It takes a lot of faith and courage to wire $15K to a company in China! Not only that they wanted the payment to be deposited in some unknown Chinese guys account (the real owner???). They acknowledged the payment on Feb 21, 2019 and told me the machine went into production an it would ship in 6 weeks...

Alibaba provides a great service with its trade assurance.  Its only a few percent of cost and provides a good level of assurance.  The vendor knows they will get paid, and the buyer knows that if the vendor doe'st deliver that they won't be stung.  It also means you dont' need to worry about all the hassles of checking out who the company is, as alibaba does all that.     I have used this many times with a lot of companies, and it just makes it work.


Title: Re: SmallSMT PNP adventure, learning and documenting
Post by: Kjelt on April 26, 2019, 07:59:05 pm
Alibaba provides a great service with its trade assurance.  Its only a few percent of cost and provides a good level of assurance.  The vendor knows they will get paid, and the buyer knows that if the vendor doe'st deliver that they won't be stung.  It also means you dont' need to worry about all the hassles of checking out who the company is, as alibaba does all that.     I have used this many times with a lot of companies, and it just makes it work. 
I do agree that the dispute option is good for the buyer.
None the less they don't take any action towards the seller afterwards. I purchased $400 of drivers and motors and got rebranded fake ones.
The dispute was in my favor but that seller is still active, so still people get ripped off.
Title: Re: SmallSMT PNP adventure, learning and documenting
Post by: revenue_controls on April 26, 2019, 10:19:31 pm
Just received the machine shipping and tracking info!
Title: Re: SmallSMT PNP adventure, learning and documenting
Post by: SWR on April 26, 2019, 10:54:14 pm
I just replied to an old post about DIY AOI in another subforum and realized that it would propably be more relevant here:
Quote
Quote from: Smallsmt on March 31, 2016, 06:10:07 am

Some months before I thought about to add this function to our PNP machine.
But there are some more complicated things to solve.
You need to add more than one camera from minimum 2 directions and light from different directions if you want to inspect the solder points too.
It's easy to detect if there is a part or not but solder point inspection is more complicated.
I think it's a very good idea. :-+

Instead of multiple cameras couldn't the first step be to use the camera that is already there and change the position to get different angles?
The idea is to use the aperture angle of the camera to create different viewing angles.
In the center is is straight down and in the four corners you have the maximum viewing angle.
Example with 2 90° angles: position below left of pad and use upper right of picture, position upper left of pad and use lower right of picture.
Example with 3 90° angles: position below pad and use upper picture, position left of pad and use right of picture, position above pad and use lower picture.

It should be possible to define inspection points for each footprint type in the library and offset them with the P&P file X, Y and rotation.

That would be a cool feature to have.  8)
Title: Re: SmallSMT PNP adventure, learning and documenting
Post by: Smallsmt on April 27, 2019, 06:10:22 am
Your machine has free dispenser unit installed I hope this could be nice for you.

Social media / forums are powerful motivaters.

You're wrong we already discussed before.
And it doesn't depend on forum trolls!
Title: Re: SmallSMT PNP adventure, learning and documenting
Post by: Smallsmt on April 27, 2019, 06:12:10 am
They wanted 50% with the order and 50% before shipping. I went to my bank and wired the
full payment (to avoid the additional bank fees). It takes a lot of faith and courage to wire $15K to a company in China! Not only that they wanted the payment to be deposited in some unknown Chinese guys account (the real owner???). They acknowledged the payment on Feb 21, 2019 and told me the machine went into production an it would ship in 6 weeks...

Alibaba provides a great service with its trade assurance.  Its only a few percent of cost and provides a good level of assurance.  The vendor knows they will get paid, and the buyer knows that if the vendor doe'st deliver that they won't be stung.  It also means you dont' need to worry about all the hassles of checking out who the company is, as alibaba does all that.     I have used this many times with a lot of companies, and it just makes it work.

You're so clever and takes more than 5% from seller for this plus a high member fee.


Title: Re: SmallSMT PNP adventure, learning and documenting
Post by: Smallsmt on April 27, 2019, 06:16:15 am
I just replied to an old post about DIY AOI in another subforum and realized that it would propably be more relevant here:
Quote
Quote from: Smallsmt on March 31, 2016, 06:10:07 am

Some months before I thought about to add this function to our PNP machine.
But there are some more complicated things to solve.
You need to add more than one camera from minimum 2 directions and light from different directions if you want to inspect the solder points too.
It's easy to detect if there is a part or not but solder point inspection is more complicated.
I think it's a very good idea. :-+

Instead of multiple cameras couldn't the first step be to use the camera that is already there and change the position to get different angles?
The idea is to use the aperture angle of the camera to create different viewing angles.
In the center is is straight down and in the four corners you have the maximum viewing angle.
Example with 2 90° angles: position below left of pad and use upper right of picture, position upper left of pad and use lower right of picture.
Example with 3 90° angles: position below pad and use upper picture, position left of pad and use right of picture, position above pad and use lower picture.

It should be possible to define inspection points for each footprint type in the library and offset them with the P&P file X, Y and rotation.

That would be a cool feature to have.  8)

This was a total different context.
It's a function of a dedicated AOI and we need the cameras from different angles to calculate 3D information for solder points.
We need multiple cameras to increase the speed too.
The simple top camera can only check if a part is on position but we want to know if it's soldered well too.

Title: Re: SmallSMT PNP adventure, learning and documenting
Post by: mrpackethead on April 27, 2019, 06:36:58 am
Your machine has free dispenser unit installed I hope this could be nice for you.

Social media / forums are powerful motivaters.

You're wrong we already discussed before.
And it doesn't depend on forum trolls!


The only person who i've been able to verify as a bonafinde customer of Sunny  was only able to get some satisfaction after they posted about their troubles on this very forum.  Seems this person is only getting some action after posting on this forum.   Just an observation.
Title: Re: SmallSMT PNP adventure, learning and documenting
Post by: mrpackethead on April 27, 2019, 06:43:23 am
You're so clever and takes more than 5% from seller for this plus a high member fee.

https://service.alibaba.com/buyer/faq_detail/20111762.htm


2) Service fee on seller when payment be received
a. For order amount≤USD5000: seller needs to pay 5% for wholesale products; 1% or 2% for custom products (1% -order must be shipped via Alibaba logistics service,2% -order is not shipped via Alibaba logistics service);
b. For order amount>USD5000: no service fee on seller, and order must be exported via One Touch.

Alibaba do undertake compliance and auditing activity of company who use its services, so they can minimize their risks.     Hard to argue with US$478.6 billion of trade ( 2016 ) each year. They must be doing something right.

Title: Re: SmallSMT PNP adventure, learning and documenting
Post by: revenue_controls on April 27, 2019, 07:10:19 am

The only person who i've been able to verify as a bonafide

I'm glad I'm a bonafide person now! Thanks.
Title: Re: SmallSMT PNP adventure, learning and documenting
Post by: mrpackethead on April 27, 2019, 08:56:13 am

The only person who i've been able to verify as a bonafide

I'm glad I'm a bonafide person now! Thanks.

While i have no reason to doubt you are for real,  Your not the person I am refering to.   

Title: Re: SmallSMT PNP adventure, learning and documenting
Post by: revenue_controls on April 27, 2019, 11:15:30 am

The only person who i've been able to verify as a bonafide

I'm glad I'm a bonafide person now! Thanks.

While i have no reason to doubt you are for real,  Your not the person I am refering to.

 ??? :-//
Title: Re: SmallSMT PNP adventure, learning and documenting
Post by: IconicPCB on April 27, 2019, 05:11:41 pm
Revenue,

Don't worry... I await Your review with baited breath.

Title: Re: SmallSMT PNP adventure, learning and documenting
Post by: mrpackethead on April 27, 2019, 05:30:15 pm
Revenue,

Don't worry... I await Your review with baited breath.

We all do.  :-) 
Title: Re: SmallSMT PNP adventure, learning and documenting
Post by: IconicPCB on April 27, 2019, 05:33:37 pm
Ahh ... yes but how ripe is Your bait?
Title: Re: SmallSMT PNP adventure, learning and documenting
Post by: mrpackethead on April 27, 2019, 09:13:16 pm
I certainly can't talk cause my nickname is a bit weird, but I'd love to know how you came to be 'Revenue_controls"
Title: Re: SmallSMT PNP adventure, learning and documenting
Post by: SWR on April 28, 2019, 07:54:10 am
It's a function of a dedicated AOI and we need the cameras from different angles to calculate 3D information for solder points.
Yes, I totally get that. You need different angles to build a 3D point cloud. Normally 18° angle difference is enough to create a depth perspective.
Quote
We need multiple cameras to increase the speed too.
I agree that 3 cameras are quicker than taking 3 pictures with one camera.
But to many hobby customers - myself included - a slow AOI would be a valuable tool and certainly better than no AOI.
Quote
The simple top camera can only check if a part is on position but we want to know if it's soldered well too.
This is the interesting question that I wanted to check.
Do you need different cameras to get different viewing angles?

On my VP-2500DP machine the top camera is about 50mm above the PCB surface.
To create 18° angle coverage you need a center distance of 50mm*tan(9°) = 7,9mm.
That is a 15,8mm wide view for full circular 18° angle difference.
If you just use the corners it's sqrt(7,9²/2) = 5,6mm.
That is a 11,2mm wide view for corner to corner 18° angle difference.

Large angles will increase the depth resolution of the point cloud, but maybe it's good enough to use for AOI.
How wide & tall is the view area from the top camera on the VP-2500DP?
Title: Re: SmallSMT PNP adventure, learning and documenting
Post by: mrpackethead on April 28, 2019, 05:15:39 pm
I think smallsmt said he was going to have this working 'in a few weeks' back in 2016. How did it go Micheal?
Title: Re: SmallSMT PNP adventure, learning and documenting
Post by: revenue_controls on April 30, 2019, 07:48:33 am
Feeders should be here tomorrow (Tuesday) However the machine seems to be stuck in Hong Kong....
Title: Re: SmallSMT PNP adventure, learning and documenting
Post by: IconicPCB on April 30, 2019, 08:28:14 am
At the risk of starting the ugly...why the constant acrimony?
Title: Re: SmallSMT PNP adventure, learning and documenting
Post by: mrpackethead on April 30, 2019, 02:06:12 pm
Feeders should be here tomorrow (Tuesday) However the machine seems to be stuck in Hong Kong....

whats the duty going to cost on this? Last time i looked PNP machines out of China were being slamed with a 25% tarriff
Title: Re: SmallSMT PNP adventure, learning and documenting
Post by: revenue_controls on April 30, 2019, 09:46:18 pm
At the risk of starting the ugly...why the constant acrimony?

To whom are you referring to?

Title: Re: SmallSMT PNP adventure, learning and documenting
Post by: Kjelt on April 30, 2019, 11:33:44 pm
If that is true...I'M SCREWED! 
sent the bill to the white house  ;)
Title: Re: SmallSMT PNP adventure, learning and documenting
Post by: revenue_controls on May 01, 2019, 12:07:11 am
sent the bill to the white house  ;)

https://tradingeconomics.com/netherlands/personal-income-tax-rate (https://tradingeconomics.com/netherlands/personal-income-tax-rate)
Read it and weep.
Title: Re: SmallSMT PNP adventure, learning and documenting
Post by: Kjelt on May 01, 2019, 12:19:36 am
 :-//
Title: Re: SmallSMT PNP adventure, learning and documenting
Post by: ebastler on May 01, 2019, 12:25:22 am
:-//

I think revenue_controls meant to say that the White House is doing great, never mind the China tariffs.  ::)

And he implied that foreigners should not criticize the US government, lest their own government gets criticized in return.

May I suggest that we stay well away from the topic of which governmental approach is "best"? It's a debate which has proven to be a surefire way to derail any forum thread...
Title: Re: SmallSMT PNP adventure, learning and documenting
Post by: Kjelt on May 01, 2019, 12:28:00 am
Agreed, I should not have made a political hint  :)
Title: Re: SmallSMT PNP adventure, learning and documenting
Post by: mrpackethead on May 01, 2019, 05:32:00 am
If that is true...I'M SCREWED! 
sent the bill to the white house  ;)

https://tradingeconomics.com/netherlands/personal-income-tax-rate (https://tradingeconomics.com/netherlands/personal-income-tax-rate)
Read it and weep.

https://circuitsassembly.com/ca/editorial/menu-news/29579-pending-us-tariffs-to-effect-host-of-pcb-equipment-components.html

The tarrif for PNP's is based on the code 8479.89.92, which is " Automated electronic component placement machines for making printed circuitassemblies "

Tarrif wars don't help anyone!
Title: Re: SmallSMT PNP adventure, learning and documenting
Post by: Kjelt on May 01, 2019, 05:59:28 am
Others will see these posts and buy US made PNP machines so they don't get screwed. = more and better jobs.
I really can't come up with a single US made p&p brand .......
Can you name two to help refresh my memory?
Title: Re: SmallSMT PNP adventure, learning and documenting
Post by: revenue_controls on May 01, 2019, 06:04:43 am
SMTmax Chino, CA 91710
DDM Novastar   Ivyland, PA

Others I'm sure...
Title: Re: SmallSMT PNP adventure, learning and documenting
Post by: Kjelt on May 01, 2019, 06:24:49 am
Never heard of them, esp not on this forum.
Title: Re: SmallSMT PNP adventure, learning and documenting
Post by: NorthGuy on May 01, 2019, 07:00:50 am
Here we go... They help the US manufactures.

You are an US manufacturer. Do they help you?
Title: Re: SmallSMT PNP adventure, learning and documenting
Post by: revenue_controls on May 01, 2019, 07:12:12 am
Feeders are here!
Title: Re: SmallSMT PNP adventure, learning and documenting
Post by: IconicPCB on May 01, 2019, 08:54:46 am
I hope the machine follows the feeders without additional expense of a tariff.

The tariff is a painful impost on people trying to do business in an economy and can only serve to burden the small guy with unexpected taxes.
People on the other hand ought to compete on a level playing field by taking on the competition on identical terms. In a way this then acts to spread the wealth a little bit more evenly and justly without influence of other unrelated factors such as military might of neocolonial interest groups.
The value leader sets the goal and challenges others to better the goal.

In practical terms everybody gets to eat some rice and some steak.
Title: Re: SmallSMT PNP adventure, learning and documenting
Post by: mrpackethead on May 01, 2019, 09:04:53 am
I hope the machine follows the feeders without additional expense of a tariff.

The tariff is a painful impost on people trying to do business in an economy and can only serve to burden the small guy with unexpected taxes.
People on the other hand ought to compete on a level playing field by taking on the competition on identical terms. In a way this then acts to spread the wealth a little bit more evenly and justly without influence of other unrelated factors such as military might of neocolonial interest groups.
The value leader sets the goal and challenges others to better the goal.

In practical terms everybody gets to eat some rice and some steak.

Im glad i live somwhere where there are nearly zero tarrifs imposed.  Guess thats because as a country that survives on its exports we dont' want to make it any harder for ourselves!
Title: Re: SmallSMT PNP adventure, learning and documenting
Post by: revenue_controls on May 01, 2019, 09:32:57 am
continuing...
17 CL Feeders arrived today from China, in sizes 8, 16, 12, and 24 mm in two boxes. Shipping via DHL, they only took a few days to arrive. I was able to track them the whole way. The feeders were in there original manufactures form fitting packaging and then pack into larger boxes for shipping to me. The packages arrived in good condition without any damage. The boxes were completely raped in a yellowish packing tape, which seems to be a common practice from Chinese shippers. The feeders were individually boxed and inside they were wrapped in plastic wrap with some machine oil.

The feeders themselves are mechanically cool looking and seem to be quite delicate devices. They are made with mostly stamped and bent steel. The bigger sizes seem to be of a more robust construction. The mechanics are quite intricate. They are pneumatically operated. There are no electrical components or sensors on them.

   
Title: Re: SmallSMT PNP adventure, learning and documenting
Post by: revenue_controls on May 01, 2019, 09:41:31 am
Currently the machine is still sitting in Hong Kong...
Title: Re: SmallSMT PNP adventure, learning and documenting
Post by: mrpackethead on May 01, 2019, 09:53:58 am
Those CL feeders are good units and they just work.   You sometimes will need to adjust them so the calibration is correct, but i typicaly have only had to do that after 50+ reels of placement,   You can do a 'suck and see' approach to the cal, or you can get a tool to help you, its easier with the tool, but i did my first ones with the inspection microscope and a hacked together plate to hold it on!      Its amazing how closely the feeders are cloned from teh yamaha orginals.  Theres typically a few minor things.   You can also easily get all the replacement parts for them on aliexpress or somewhere like ksunsmt.      I have several hundred.    The big difference i've found between these and the orginals is that the air accuators are not nearly as good as the orginal ones, and they will wear out quicker..  Make sure your air supply is really dry and it will help you no end.   Its also work making sure that the manifold air pressures are consistent as this will help you with more consistent feeding.  The other area to be careful with is the pins on face that attaches to teh manifold. They need to be perfectly straight and its easy to damage them when you are reeling up if you are not aware of that.      Sorting out a good storage system for them is both time and money well spent :-)


Heres a link to a calibration tool ( theres lots of places to get the same thing )
http://www.ksunsmt.com/cpxx/info_34.aspx?itemid=120&lcid=64&pid=51 (http://www.ksunsmt.com/cpxx/info_34.aspx?itemid=120&lcid=64&pid=51)
Title: Re: SmallSMT PNP adventure, learning and documenting
Post by: revenue_controls on May 01, 2019, 09:57:06 am
Never heard of them, esp not on this forum.

If you never heard of them or they are not on this forum = they don't exist....   :palm:
Title: Re: SmallSMT PNP adventure, learning and documenting
Post by: revenue_controls on May 01, 2019, 10:02:05 am
Those CL feeders are good units and they just work.   You sometimes will need to adjust them so the calibration is correct, but i typicaly have only had to do that after 50+ reels of placement,   You can do a 'suck and see' approach to the cal, or you can get a tool to help you, its easier with the tool, but i did my first ones with the inspection microscope and a hacked together plate to hold it on!      Its amazing how closely the feeders are cloned from teh yamaha orginals.  Theres typically a few minor things.   You can also easily get all the replacement parts for them on aliexpress or somewhere like ksunsmt.      I have several hundred.    The big difference i've found between these and the orginals is that the air accuators are not nearly as good as the orginal ones, and they will wear out quicker..  Make sure your air supply is really dry and it will help you no end.   Its also work making sure that the manifold air pressures are consistent as this will help you with more consistent feeding.  The other area to be careful with is the pins on face that attaches to teh manifold. They need to be perfectly straight and its easy to damage them when you are reeling up if you are not aware of that.      Sorting out a good storage system for them is both time and money well spent :-)


Heres a link to a calibration tool ( theres lots of places to get the same thing )
http://www.ksunsmt.com/cpxx/info_34.aspx?itemid=120&lcid=64&pid=51 (http://www.ksunsmt.com/cpxx/info_34.aspx?itemid=120&lcid=64&pid=51)


Thanks for the info!
Title: Re: SmallSMT PNP adventure, learning and documenting
Post by: SMTech on May 01, 2019, 06:15:53 pm
DDM certainly crops up on here and before the very cheap Chinese & Polish machines cropped up, were probably the de-facto entry level machines unless you count the horrible Japanese MDCs. That said they are in many ways outclassed by Autotronik, while Essemtecs older machines and Dima (while they existed) also made a better more capable package.
SMTMax and Maddell are/were both very questionably American, and sell garbage so far as I can tell.

Universal is a very large US manufacturer of placement machines, they make very nice machines, however their European presence today seems weaker than it has been historically. This probably has more to do with how their machines fit in the market as it changes than anything else.

Versatec is a US manufacturer that makes a pick and place (although I'm not sure anyone buys it) previous models were fairly common to see 2nd user until quite recently but the C5 was/is in no way competitive.

ITW might not make pick and place but it has extremely strong global brands in reflow, printing and dispensing/coating (some of them being a somewhat European in flavour).

And on the same trend BTU and Heller, the other major reflow brands, also American.
Title: Re: SmallSMT PNP adventure, learning and documenting
Post by: revenue_controls on May 01, 2019, 08:47:06 pm
Good info SMtech.

A lot of you guys know the pnp machine and pcb manufacturing equipment market very well, I am just a beginner. It would be great if you guys could collaborate and compile a list of pnp machines (and other equipment). You can include for example; manufacture, model, cost, country of origin, reputation, service and support notes, software notes, usability notes, etc... It could be a sticky.
Title: Re: SmallSMT PNP adventure, learning and documenting
Post by: SMTech on May 01, 2019, 10:55:16 pm
The trouble with doing that is unless someone curates it you just end up with one of those unreadable threads full of contradictory information. Its like trying to follow something on XDAdevelopers about flashing your phone, it can take some serious work to establish if the ROM you think is interesting actually works, if the people who say it doesn't are idiots, it they are even talking about the ROM linked in the first post or if there is a later version on page 132...
also as this thread demonstrates this forum loves to get sidetracked. Currently you could create quite a list just about Chinese machines that come under $20k including feeders & taxes.
Title: Re: SmallSMT PNP adventure, learning and documenting
Post by: mrpackethead on May 02, 2019, 06:43:21 pm
The trouble with doing that is unless someone curates it you just end up with one of those unreadable threads full of contradictory information. Its like trying to follow something on XDAdevelopers about flashing your phone, it can take some serious work to establish if the ROM you think is interesting actually works, if the people who say it doesn't are idiots, it they are even talking about the ROM linked in the first post or if there is a later version on page 132...
also as this thread demonstrates this forum loves to get sidetracked. Currently you could create quite a list just about Chinese machines that come under $20k including feeders & taxes.

This is why forums are a BAD thing for being a repostory of info.  A forum is just a long conversation that is written rather than spoken.
Title: Re: SmallSMT PNP adventure, learning and documenting
Post by: SMTech on May 02, 2019, 06:57:36 pm
Yeah it needs a wiki
Title: Re: SmallSMT PNP adventure, learning and documenting
Post by: mrpackethead on May 02, 2019, 07:36:13 pm
Ahh ... yes but how ripe is Your bait?

its gone stale now, waiting for this machine to arrive.  Got an ETA Revenue_control?    I'm guessing at a few hundred kgs, its coming on air-freight rather than a express courier service.   
Title: Re: SmallSMT PNP adventure, learning and documenting
Post by: revenue_controls on May 02, 2019, 08:49:17 pm
Its in MEMPHIS, TN.

Scheduled delivery:
Monday 5/06/2019 by 12:00 pm

I think you guys should still compile a list of what is currently available as of this date. There could be a few lists, each of you with your own opinions and experiences. If others bitch about it, to hell with them.
Title: Re: SmallSMT PNP adventure, learning and documenting
Post by: revenue_controls on May 08, 2019, 06:23:45 am
Scheduled delivery:
Wednesday 5/08/2019 by 12:00 pm

The machine was stuck in customs for a few days.
Title: Re: SmallSMT PNP adventure, learning and documenting
Post by: mrpackethead on May 08, 2019, 10:52:30 am
Did you have to pay any tarrifs on it?  It seems hit and miss from all accounts, i guess it depends on who the customs agent is and how they feel on the day.
Title: Re: SmallSMT PNP adventure, learning and documenting
Post by: revenue_controls on May 09, 2019, 02:38:37 am
The machine is here! No problems with the packing.

I'll be uploading pictures of the packing soon...
Title: Re: SmallSMT PNP adventure, learning and documenting
Post by: IconicPCB on May 09, 2019, 06:14:50 am
Good fortune with Your efforts.  Looking forward to Your descriptions of the equipment.
Title: Re: SmallSMT PNP adventure, learning and documenting
Post by: SWR on May 09, 2019, 06:52:05 am
The machine is here!
Congratulations with your new machine!  :-+
Title: Re: SmallSMT PNP adventure, learning and documenting
Post by: joaomatos on May 09, 2019, 07:34:49 am
Congratulations, please keep us posted.  :-+

Considering a SmallSMT as well, your experience is very valuable.
Title: Re: SmallSMT PNP adventure, learning and documenting
Post by: revenue_controls on May 09, 2019, 08:48:17 am
Thank you all.

some pics of the packaging...

Title: Re: SmallSMT PNP adventure, learning and documenting
Post by: revenue_controls on May 09, 2019, 08:49:02 am
more pics
Title: Re: SmallSMT PNP adventure, learning and documenting
Post by: revenue_controls on May 09, 2019, 08:49:40 am
more
Title: Re: SmallSMT PNP adventure, learning and documenting
Post by: IconicPCB on May 09, 2019, 09:03:06 am
Looks like a tidy, well laid out machine within those hidden nether regions.
I see there are four brackets, two on each side of the machine east west sides.
Are they used to lock the machine down to the base of the transport box  and/ or to the machine table?

Title: Re: SmallSMT PNP adventure, learning and documenting
Post by: revenue_controls on May 09, 2019, 09:34:05 am
Looks like a tidy, well laid out machine within those hidden nether regions.
I see there are four brackets, two on each side of the machine east west sides.
Are they used to lock the machine down to the base of the transport box  and/ or to the machine table?

yes to both.
Title: Re: SmallSMT PNP adventure, learning and documenting
Post by: revenue_controls on May 09, 2019, 09:56:08 am
The machine was well packed and in perfect condition. All accessories were individually wrapped. Paint is in good condition. The machine structure is very solid.

The machine is very heavy and would take 3 guys to lift it.
Title: Re: SmallSMT PNP adventure, learning and documenting
Post by: mrpackethead on May 09, 2019, 10:10:17 am

I was not asked to pay any tariff at this time, but maybe the IRS or Customs will send me a bill. I don't know.

More to come...

If you look in this thread, (below)  Small SMT claimed they had found a way to 'avoid the 25% tarrif'.   One can only assume that they actually knew that the tarrif applies.   Using a code for 'vacum sweepers' is an interesting way to avoid it..  As fedex points out its not a good nor clever way, and i guess you are lucky that they picked it up rather than US customs.      The code that you've reclassified it, is subject to the tarrif.


https://www.eevblog.com/forum/manufacture/smallsmt-vision-placer-pick-place-machines/msg1880435/#msg1880435 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/manufacture/smallsmt-vision-placer-pick-place-machines/msg1880435/#msg1880435)

The image was snap shotted of their web page last year.   

I hope this doe'snt come to byte you more than just the tarrrifs. 

Title: Re: SmallSMT PNP adventure, learning and documenting
Post by: revenue_controls on May 09, 2019, 10:18:23 am
Now the fun really starts!
I will continue to give my impressions of the machine components and build quality, operation, support, and software usability.

Title: Re: SmallSMT PNP adventure, learning and documenting
Post by: revenue_controls on May 09, 2019, 10:29:55 am
the only things that matter to me now is the performance of the machine and the factory support!
Title: Re: SmallSMT PNP adventure, learning and documenting
Post by: mrpackethead on May 09, 2019, 10:41:19 am
the only things that matter to me now is the performance of the machine and the factory support!

Well, hopefully it doe'snt do what its decription "carpet sweeper" suggests :-)

Looknig forward to seeing how it goes for you.
Title: Re: SmallSMT PNP adventure, learning and documenting
Post by: mrpackethead on May 09, 2019, 01:30:04 pm
Hey Revenue, what are you using for reflow and paste?
Title: Re: SmallSMT PNP adventure, learning and documenting
Post by: Smallsmt on May 09, 2019, 02:27:43 pm
Really interested to see US customs don't use harmonized HS codes?

http://www.datamyne.com/hts/84/8479899200 (http://www.datamyne.com/hts/84/8479899200)

HTS Code: 8479.89.9200
Automated Electronic Component Placement Machines Of A Kind Used Solely Or Principally For The Manufacture Of Printed Circuit Assemblies

But it's always in the same manner of some person writing stupid things thank you.
Title: Re: SmallSMT PNP adventure, learning and documenting
Post by: mrpackethead on May 09, 2019, 02:40:16 pm
Really interested to see US customs don't use harmonized HS codes?

http://www.datamyne.com/hts/84/8479899200 (http://www.datamyne.com/hts/84/8479899200)

HTS Code: 8479.89.9200
Automated Electronic Component Placement Machines Of A Kind Used Solely Or Principally For The Manufacture Of Printed Circuit Assemblies

But it's always in the same manner of some person writing stupid things thank you.


Revenue Controls says that the documentatation from SmallSMT listed it as "8479897000"..  Not 8479.89.9200       Really interested to know how you use a carpet sweeper for doing pnp.  Wonder why that happend.


Title: Re: SmallSMT PNP adventure, learning and documenting
Post by: Smallsmt on May 09, 2019, 02:53:40 pm
Really interested to see US customs don't use harmonized HS codes?

http://www.datamyne.com/hts/84/8479899200 (http://www.datamyne.com/hts/84/8479899200)

HTS Code: 8479.89.9200
Automated Electronic Component Placement Machines Of A Kind Used Solely Or Principally For The Manufacture Of Printed Circuit Assemblies

But it's always in the same manner of some person writing stupid things thank you.


Revenue Controls says that the documentatation from SmallSMT listed it as "8479897000"..  Not 8479.89.9200       Really interested to know how you use a carpet sweeper for doing pnp.  Wonder why that happend.

I think even if you try to check this code it's fitting too

8479 8970 00
Automated electronic component placement machines of a kind used solely or principally for the manufacture of printed circuit assemblies
https://www.taricsupport.com/nomenclatuur/8479897000.html (https://www.taricsupport.com/nomenclatuur/8479897000.html)
Title: Re: SmallSMT PNP adventure, learning and documenting
Post by: mrpackethead on May 09, 2019, 03:48:04 pm
you can't use that code. Its not how harmonised codes work. Look up, and you'll see the parent classification, " for things not covered elsehwere".. Theres a classification for pnp. ( which revenue_controls has now had to use ).    Its subject to the 25% tarrifs.

At least for me, i'd never try to avoid paying tarrifs or trying to help my cusotmers avoid them..   The good thing is that you'll know for next time. :-)    Maybe you shoud make the machiens in Germany, then they wouldtn be subject to the tarrif
Title: Re: SmallSMT PNP adventure, learning and documenting
Post by: IconicPCB on May 09, 2019, 04:44:52 pm
Right now it seems everybody is in loud agreement.
Neither MrPackethead nor aptly named revenue_control would stoop to not paying taxes and smallsmt and MrPackethead both claim a position in the code listing whihch seem to address the same issue... machines used in pcb assembly process.
If two line items cover the same material.... why?
Title: Re: SmallSMT PNP adventure, learning and documenting
Post by: SMTech on May 09, 2019, 06:18:26 pm
Right now it seems everybody is in loud agreement.
Neither MrPackethead nor aptly named revenue_control would stoop to not paying taxes and smallsmt and MrPackethead both claim a position in the code listing whihch seem to address the same issue... machines used in pcb assembly process.
If two line items cover the same material.... why?

If you search the UK/EU tariff databases the 9200 code doesn't seem to exist and smallsmt's code is correct, there doesn't seem to be a dedicated code for "carpet sweepers" either (presumably vacuum cleaner is close enough). However only the first 6 digits are harmonised / valid worldwide and they match, so clearly more care is needed for orders outside the EU
Title: Re: SmallSMT PNP adventure, learning and documenting
Post by: mrpackethead on May 09, 2019, 06:29:31 pm
Right now it seems everybody is in loud agreement.
Neither MrPackethead nor aptly named revenue_control would stoop to not paying taxes and smallsmt and MrPackethead both claim a position in the code listing whihch seem to address the same issue... machines used in pcb assembly process.
If two line items cover the same material.... why?

Not at all in agreement.   Using the code 8479.x.x in the us, is only to be used for items that are not listed elsehwere.  You have to start at the top of the codes and work through the sections.      Its very clear.   There is a code for PNP machines elsewhere.  Its odd that under 8479. there are codes for placemnet machines..      ( which are not subject to tarrifs )..       AS Fedex pointed out, ( quite correctly ) the 8479 code is wrong, and you can't use it. 

Title: Re: SmallSMT PNP adventure, learning and documenting
Post by: SMTech on May 09, 2019, 06:37:31 pm
both these codes are under 8479.... Presumably placement machines appear twice in the US list because they started with an older/3rd party list and then extended it by adding a lot of extra codes and then whoever audited that work missed the duplication.
Title: Re: SmallSMT PNP adventure, learning and documenting
Post by: IconicPCB on May 09, 2019, 08:41:57 pm
Ommm Om padmi padmi oooommmmmm
Title: Re: SmallSMT PNP adventure, learning and documenting
Post by: revenue_controls on May 09, 2019, 08:50:40 pm
Ommm Om padmi padmi oooommmmmm

What does this mean?
Title: Re: SmallSMT PNP adventure, learning and documenting
Post by: revenue_controls on May 09, 2019, 09:19:53 pm
Hey Revenue, what are you using for reflow and paste?

T-962a, If Michael is nice to me I may buy a smallsmt oven.
chipquick ts391ax250
Title: Re: SmallSMT PNP adventure, learning and documenting
Post by: IconicPCB on May 09, 2019, 10:41:20 pm
It ought to read om mani pedme om a budhist prayer

"... Thus the six syllables, om mani padme hum, mean that in dependence on the practice of a path which is an indivisible union of method and wisdom, you can transform your impure body, speech, and mind into the pure exalted body, speech, and mind of a Buddha[...]"

In reference to the confusio n/resolution residual terseness over the code

A bit of levity
Title: Re: SmallSMT PNP adventure, learning and documenting
Post by: revenue_controls on May 09, 2019, 10:50:57 pm
OK...way over my head...
Title: Re: SmallSMT PNP adventure, learning and documenting
Post by: ebastler on May 09, 2019, 11:53:31 pm
I think even if you try to check this code it's fitting too
8479 8970 00
Automated electronic component placement machines of a kind used solely or principally for the manufacture of printed circuit assemblies
https://www.taricsupport.com/nomenclatuur/8479897000.html (https://www.taricsupport.com/nomenclatuur/8479897000.html)

That source seems to be incorrect. I would recommend that you refer to the official US government source:
https://hts.usitc.gov/?query=8479.89.92 (https://hts.usitc.gov/?query=8479.89.92)

While this class of equipment is normally tariff-free, there is a hard-to-see reference in the "general" duty column to code 9903.88.01, which states the 25% tariff for products from China.
Title: Re: SmallSMT PNP adventure, learning and documenting
Post by: mrpackethead on May 10, 2019, 05:46:17 am
Quote
I do not think smallsmt was trying to get around the tariff issue (??), I just think the source of their number is incorrect.

They had a note on their web site that said they knew how to avoid the Tarif. When quizzed SmallSMT replied that they didn’t want to spoil it for others by saying what code they were going to use.  You can draw your own conclusions as to what SmallSMT was trying to acheice.

The machines might be awesome but all the odd things wrapped around SmallSMTs operations means I could never consider purchasing from them. 
I hope things work out well for revenue controls. 
Title: Re: SmallSMT PNP adventure, learning and documenting
Post by: revenue_controls on May 10, 2019, 06:20:34 am
I'm sure this will not happen in the future. Lets move on to the equipment...

I am currently bolting the machine on to the base and going through the accessories. I will see the software for the first time later tonight.
So far I am imprest with the build quality of the machine!
Title: Re: SmallSMT PNP adventure, learning and documenting
Post by: TJ232 on May 10, 2019, 03:41:56 pm
"mrpackethead" can you please let at least this SmallSMT thread going on without hijack it again ?

Can we please keep this thread on the subject and move on please? Enough about the Customs Tariffs, Thank you.

I really appreciate "revenue_controls" willingness to share with us his full experience about.
I also consider to buy a machine that size to fit in the Office but until now despite the fact that on paper SmallSMT PNP's are looking good the lack of any detailed information's and reviews and the small user base about kept us away from this brand.

Another drawback for us, been in EU, is the way how the machines can be ordered and payments are done. I still don't understand why Michael doesn't sell the machines from inside the EU as his company is located in Germany. This thing will greatly boost trust in his products and will quickly bring more customers. Neoden has made the move, they have already a foot in EU, thru a NL Company: https://www.neodentech.eu/contents/en-uk/contactus.html (https://www.neodentech.eu/contents/en-uk/contactus.html)


Quote
I do not think smallsmt was trying to get around the tariff issue (??), I just think the source of their number is incorrect.

They had a note on their web site that said they knew how to avoid the Tarif. When quizzed SmallSMT replied that they didn’t want to spoil it for others by saying what code they were going to use.  You can draw your own conclusions as to what SmallSMT was trying to acheice.

The machines might be awesome but all the odd things wrapped around SmallSMTs operations means I could never consider purchasing from them. 
I hope things work out well for revenue controls.
Title: Re: SmallSMT PNP adventure, learning and documenting
Post by: Kjelt on May 10, 2019, 04:53:13 pm
Another drawback for us, been in EU, is the way how the machines can be ordered and payments are done. I still don't understand why Michael doesn't sell the machines from inside the EU as his company is located in Germany. This thing will greatly boost trust in his products and will quickly bring more customers.
That is something I am curious about also.
Up to now it sounds to me like Michael is just a single sales person based in Germany not really a "company" but I can be mistaken.
If only he would stock repair supplies and do service work to the machines that would be a great added value service to customers IMO, so far I don't hear anything related to this.
So if you are a company and bought a machine and something breaks down they refer you to the far east, swap modules or how does this work?

Quote
Neoden has made the move, they have already a foot in EU, thru a NL Company: https://www.neodentech.eu/contents/en-uk/contactus.html (https://www.neodentech.eu/contents/en-uk/contactus.html)
Not sure about this, I think it is only a distributor, a saleschannel, without the service or spare parts. So you only pay more without the benefits, but I might be mistaken.
The sale itself is actually IMO the least of a companies worries when buying such a machine.
Reliability, quick local service, spare parts, repairs and get back up and running within 24 hours is the important thing if your business depends on the output.
Title: Re: SmallSMT PNP adventure, learning and documenting
Post by: SMTech on May 10, 2019, 07:20:52 pm
You would expect a distributor to train both its sales and service staff to be familiar with the machine as well as to have better lines of communication with the manufacturer than you. Theoretically getting you better service and the ability to communicate in your own language. Spares might be a stretch tho'. That said quite a few "distributors" of Chinese kit seem to have odd arrangements, exclusivity seems by no means a given (and normally you expect something resembling it). In the UK I have had a rep for a manufacturer of much more expensive machines say they have sold a customer a Neoden, the fact they can do this appears nowhere on their website although they do list other Chinese kit like BGA rework stations. In that instance the stations they sell don't quite line up with the manufacturers website or Ali listings and several other companies also claim to "distribute"at either the national or continental level, the markup seems large too (like double) compared to Ali.
Title: Re: SmallSMT PNP adventure, learning and documenting
Post by: ebastler on May 10, 2019, 07:42:53 pm
Can we please keep this thread on the subject and move on please? Enough about the Customs Tariffs, Thank you.
[...]
Another drawback for us, been in EU, is the way how the machines can be ordered and payments are done. I still don't understand why Michael doesn't sell the machines from inside the EU as his company is located in Germany. This thing will greatly boost trust in his products and will quickly bring more customers.

You seem a bit inconsistent here. On one hand, you are concerned about the inconvenience of importing the machines yourself. On the other hand, you don't want tariffs discussed in this thread -- which are a major part of this inconvenience, especially in countries which apply significant tariffs. What's up?

Why doesn't Michael set up a company in Germany which acts as the importer and distributor? I would assume that he wants to avoid the significant overhead and liability which would come with that. That company would be responsible for paying the correct import duties, guaranteeing CE compliance, registering with the WEEE electronic waste system, providing warranty, accepting product returns if the end customer is a consumer (which should be rare), and maybe most significantly taking on liability for product safety.

Michael would incur extra labor cost, insurance premiums, warranty accruals, and probably the cost of additional safety and compliance testing (if he still wants to sleep well). As a customer, how much would you be willing to pay extra for the convenience of dealing with a European vendor?
Title: Re: SmallSMT PNP adventure, learning and documenting
Post by: OwO on May 10, 2019, 07:43:40 pm
Well distributors always add a fairly sizable markup, that's the norm. I do have a problem with exclusivity though because that's the source of evil of most western distributors IMO. I get that distributors add value, but I also should be able to buy direct from manufacturer at a price decided by the manufacturer without contractual obligations with distributors messing with how the manufacturer can price their goods.
Title: Re: SmallSMT PNP adventure, learning and documenting
Post by: Kjelt on May 10, 2019, 08:11:43 pm
Well distributors always add a fairly sizable markup, that's the norm.
If they add value and as SMTech states have trained staff to assist with problems and brings quick solutions that would be normal and not a big problem.
In the past (not with P&P machines) I have experienced that many distributors do not have such trained personnel.
They were a small time two or three man company , busy selling and ordering, shoving boxes and their technical knowledge was limited.
In those cases it adds no value IMO.
Title: Re: SmallSMT PNP adventure, learning and documenting
Post by: SMTech on May 10, 2019, 08:20:06 pm
It can cause real friction when there is overlap tho',
"how am I supposed to sell anything when you undercut me?"
"you sold them this unit and now they expect me to support them for nothing"
etc.

The exclusivity, or appearance of it, is a way for the distributor and manufacturer alike to avoid these arguments as they both have clear roles.

With the products we manufacture and sell we far prefer not to have to deal with the end user, dealing with the end user is expensive that what a distributor & their engineers get their cut for (but not 100% markup). On the rare occasions we do sell direct, they get the RRP that trade users are quite free to undercut, however we don't do true exclusivity, any engineering / service business in our niche sector even if they deal with our rivals is quite free to buy our kit. End users can be very demanding, client facing roles require an entire different skillset to manufacture, far better to let those best placed and local deal with it.

Title: Re: SmallSMT PNP adventure, learning and documenting
Post by: mrpackethead on May 10, 2019, 10:03:51 pm

You seem a bit inconsistent here. On one hand, you are concerned about the inconvenience of importing the machines yourself. On the other hand, you don't want tariffs discussed in this thread -- which are a major part of this inconvenience, especially in countries which apply significant tariffs. What's up?

Why doesn't Michael set up a company in Germany which acts as the importer and distributor? I would assume that he wants to avoid the significant overhead and liability which would come with that. That company would be responsible for paying the correct import duties, guaranteeing CE compliance, registering with the WEEE electronic waste system, providing warranty, accepting product returns if the end customer is a consumer (which should be rare), and maybe most significantly taking on liability for product safety.

Michael would incur extra labor cost, insurance premiums, warranty accruals, and probably the cost of additional safety and compliance testing (if he still wants to sleep well). As a customer, how much would you be willing to pay extra for the convenience of dealing with a European vendor?

One of the best things about eevblog is that as a community we are really good at keeping each other informed of the good, bad and ugly.   We collectively pour lots of 'light' onto everything,.    How many busted videos has Dave done?  Must be quite a few.  The questions you ask are all good ones.     

There is a SmallSMT Limited registered in the UK.    Curiously with a director called "MICHAEL HEINZ BRUCH"    what woudl be the chance of that.   Its located in Manchester.  I found a pic of it on google maps. Wonder if they have a show room there.   Pending what happens with Brexit that might be great for the UK.





Title: Re: SmallSMT PNP adventure, learning and documenting
Post by: SMTech on May 10, 2019, 10:41:32 pm
In what way could one small business in a  niche be good for the UK after a Brexit?
Brexit is a hot mess of xenophobic crap mixed with some rose tinted spectacles imagining Britain is and could once again be a Victorian colonial superpower as if that was a good thing, instead of something build on the backs of exploited people, resources and nations that one would hope nobody would ever try to replicate. Britain did some impressive things with that wealth and power but they came at a cost and left a damaging legacy that may never be healed in some cases.

If we leave without a deal the UK has managed at the last count 6 or 7 "deals" that maintain the status quo with other nations, this is far from promising progress and doesn't include what is currently our most important market. Some nations will seek to exploit that, others are worried about the kind of economy Britain might try to foster in that environment, how it uses it taxation powers, state aid and rules and rules governing such. The most likely outcome it is suggested if this happens is zero tarriffs, that automatically means any negotiations after that point come from a point of weakness and also threatens some industries like agriculture that could and should be protected form lower quality products we're more than capable of growing/making ourselves. Tarriffs are bad except when they aren't, the world ain't black and white.

Title: Re: SmallSMT PNP adventure, learning and documenting
Post by: revenue_controls on May 10, 2019, 11:30:46 pm
powered up!
Title: Re: SmallSMT PNP adventure, learning and documenting
Post by: TJ232 on May 11, 2019, 02:03:25 am
Can we please keep this thread on the subject and move on please? Enough about the Customs Tariffs, Thank you.
[...]
Another drawback for us, been in EU, is the way how the machines can be ordered and payments are done. I still don't understand why Michael doesn't sell the machines from inside the EU as his company is located in Germany. This thing will greatly boost trust in his products and will quickly bring more customers.

You seem a bit inconsistent here. On one hand, you are concerned about the inconvenience of importing the machines yourself. On the other hand, you don't want tariffs discussed in this thread -- which are a major part of this inconvenience, especially in countries which apply significant tariffs. What's up?

Not at all, I was just saying that from my personal point of view was enough talk about Customs tariffs. It's not rocket science, for EU, just check TARIC website, As a good practice all the time be sure that all the papers are proper prepared BEFORE goods departure, and that's it. And yes, we have done it many times, including for PNP's, it takes some time, you need to be very patient with the involved bureaucracy, asking for Invoice on real value sounds strange sometime for some people around the World,  etc.
 
Quote
Why doesn't Michael set up a company in Germany which acts as the importer and distributor? I would assume that he wants to avoid the significant overhead and liability which would come with that. That company would be responsible for paying the correct import duties, guaranteeing CE compliance, registering with the WEEE electronic waste system, providing warranty, accepting product returns if the end customer is a consumer (which should be rare), and maybe most significantly taking on liability for product safety.

And why not? Is anything above that is not normal for a business to provide? Why is that bad for me, as a customer?

Quote
Michael would incur extra labor cost, insurance premiums, warranty accruals, and probably the cost of additional safety and compliance testing (if he still wants to sleep well). As a customer, how much would you be willing to pay extra for the convenience of dealing with a European vendor?

Because he is on the both ends of the whole chain and actually controlling it from product design, to production, import and distribution, I think he is the only one that can decide where and how is better to balance incomes for a better fiscal optimization. If you ask me in cases like that the expected extra cost is on the 8%-25%, depending on the volume and whole product margin rate.
I would pay this extra to be able to buy from inside EU, to be able to pay to a EU company, not in some personal Chinese bank account and to have to explain to the fiscal authorities why I'm doing such a thing, to have better support in English, etc.

But really, let's let this thread to be what's intended to be, a full review of a very interesting PNP machine that "revenue_controls" kindly will do for us all.
With zillions of pictures, videos, software presentation and even more details if possible, Thank you. :popcorn:


Title: Re: SmallSMT PNP adventure, learning and documenting
Post by: ebastler on May 11, 2019, 02:17:35 am
Quote
Why doesn't Michael set up a company in Germany which acts as the importer and distributor? I would assume that he wants to avoid the significant overhead and liability which would come with that. That company would be responsible for paying the correct import duties, guaranteeing CE compliance, registering with the WEEE electronic waste system, providing warranty, accepting product returns if the end customer is a consumer (which should be rare), and maybe most significantly taking on liability for product safety.

And why not? Is anything above that is not normal for a business to provide? Why is that bad for me, as a customer?

It's not a bad thing, of course. All I wanted to point out is that it does not come for free (for the vendor, and hence for you as a customer).

To put it another way: SmallSMT are currently cutting some corners, you might even say evading some responsibilities, by selling direct from China. That saves them money, and enables the attractive prices. They have made a choice in favor of that business model; customers can make a choice and buy elsewhere if they prefer a different model.
Title: Re: SmallSMT PNP adventure, learning and documenting
Post by: mrpackethead on May 11, 2019, 04:25:00 am
.... you need to be very patient with the involved bureaucracy, asking for Invoice on real value sounds strange sometime for some people around the World,  etc.

Now Curious, to know if the Commercial Invoice with the machine the machine where consistent with the payment.
 
This so far has been an adventure....
Title: Re: SmallSMT PNP adventure, learning and documenting
Post by: revenue_controls on May 11, 2019, 05:25:16 am
yes
Title: Re: SmallSMT PNP adventure, learning and documenting
Post by: IconicPCB on May 11, 2019, 08:23:11 am
MrPackethead,

Why dont You purchase a machine and finaly give Your self and the rest of us a break from well meaning belligerence.
Else start a topic all Your own where You can rightly and justifiably steer discussion the way you want it to go.

Let revenue control  do his thing, this is why he started this topic.
Title: Re: SmallSMT PNP adventure, learning and documenting
Post by: mrpackethead on May 11, 2019, 09:00:02 am
powered up!

Is that tape on the base?


Title: Re: SmallSMT PNP adventure, learning and documenting
Post by: revenue_controls on May 11, 2019, 09:08:58 am
yes...
Title: Re: SmallSMT PNP adventure, learning and documenting
Post by: mrpackethead on May 11, 2019, 10:23:05 am
was it just for shipping a test pcb or something.   that wont' be how you use it?
Title: Re: SmallSMT PNP adventure, learning and documenting
Post by: revenue_controls on May 11, 2019, 10:42:56 am
yes, just for shipping. It has very nice pcb mounting system with registration channels and spring loaded stops. I will be up loading more pics soon.
I am currently playing with the software. and manually controlling the machine.
Title: Re: SmallSMT PNP adventure, learning and documenting
Post by: mrpackethead on May 11, 2019, 01:06:53 pm
What are you going to make?
Title: Re: SmallSMT PNP adventure, learning and documenting
Post by: cgroen on May 11, 2019, 05:38:03 pm
The "Packet noise" is high on this thread (one could even hope for "Packet loss")....  |O

I'm extremely looking forward to hear about the results and experience on this machine, thanks to "revenue" for taking the time to do this!
Title: Re: SmallSMT PNP adventure, learning and documenting
Post by: mrpackethead on May 12, 2019, 08:51:41 am
Revenue, are you going to be distributing these machines in the USA?
Title: Re: SmallSMT PNP adventure, learning and documenting
Post by: revenue_controls on May 13, 2019, 09:10:15 pm
I haven't forgot about you guys... I have been playing with the machine, loading feeders and learning the software. It's all starting to make sense.


Title: Re: SmallSMT PNP adventure, learning and documenting
Post by: revenue_controls on May 13, 2019, 10:23:47 pm
is it possible to upload videos to the forum or do I have to link it to youtube?
Title: Re: SmallSMT PNP adventure, learning and documenting
Post by: Ice-Tea on May 13, 2019, 10:39:39 pm
Link to YT.
Title: Re: SmallSMT PNP adventure, learning and documenting
Post by: revenue_controls on May 15, 2019, 10:36:21 am
my son just came home from college for the summer and he figured out the machine in 10 minutes!
Title: Re: SmallSMT PNP adventure, learning and documenting
Post by: IconicPCB on May 15, 2019, 05:11:49 pm
Revenue,

What PC are You using ?
Title: Re: SmallSMT PNP adventure, learning and documenting
Post by: revenue_controls on May 15, 2019, 08:43:48 pm
Revenue,

What PC are You using ?

Just an average windows 7 machine.

I now have 95% of the software figured out. Next step is to load all of the feeders and get them calibrated.
I will post a video later today.   
Title: Re: SmallSMT PNP adventure, learning and documenting
Post by: revenue_controls on May 16, 2019, 09:22:50 am
Check out the walk around video...
https://youtu.be/nh9W4Trp_8w (https://youtu.be/nh9W4Trp_8w)
Title: Re: SmallSMT PNP adventure, learning and documenting
Post by: IconicPCB on May 16, 2019, 02:16:14 pm
Thanks revenue,

I am expecting my machine to arrive sometime in first week of June. A  VP-2800HP-CL64-4R minus the conveyor system with a bunch of pushfeeders and a mix of CL feeders.
We decided on this machine due to the number of available feeders.
The 4R head was selected in order to improve on optical fly by characteristics of the in line design of the head.
I had spoken to Michael about the PC ( hence my question ) with the view to minimising vision processing time.Michael's advice an i5 core machine.

Presently most of my machines are older generation.I have a collection of sun work stations i use to run linuxCNC to control the milling machine and laser exposure machines.
Presently investigating ryzen5 and intel core5 machines.

I am following Your exploits with considerable interest; thank You.
Title: Re: SmallSMT PNP adventure, learning and documenting
Post by: SMTech on May 16, 2019, 06:18:24 pm
I find it fairly unlikely these machines use software that is heavily optimized to use multiple cores&threads and its worth bearing in mind that p&p machines have been running vision at speed for quite some time. Admittedly Cognex or the dedicated teams serving some of the established players might be highly skilled in writing optimised code but I would doubt there is actually any advantage in picking CPUs with extra cores, but extra Hz/IPC certainly certainly wouldn't hurt. You can get some bargain 2nd user machines but big name desktop PCs often run funny motherboards & power supplies or have power limits that mean the CPU you pay for can never or barely run at its rated speed. I'd be tempted to find  something like a z400/420 for a system designed to be rocksolid.

Our 2012 Essemtec runs on an i3 with 2GB of RAM and the vision system of that reads processes 4 devices at once from a single camera quick enough you can't really see it pause at the camera.
Our decidedly less clever 2002 Versatronics ran on a 733Mhz P3, you could sort of see it pause but its vision routines were interesting at best and the camera FOV so narrow it used multiple fields of view for quite a few things.
Title: Re: SmallSMT PNP adventure, learning and documenting
Post by: IconicPCB on May 16, 2019, 07:07:18 pm
A link to my local second hand dealer...


http://www.australiancomputertraders.com.au/Refurbished-Desktops-s/1818.htm (http://www.australiancomputertraders.com.au/Refurbished-Desktops-s/1818.htm)
Title: Re: SmallSMT PNP adventure, learning and documenting
Post by: SWR on May 16, 2019, 07:13:07 pm
I'm using my laptop to run my VP-2500DP and it runs very smooth.
It's an Acer Aspire with a Core i7-7700HQ and a GeForce GTX 1060 graphics card.
I think it's what they call a budget gaming machine (< $1000).
Title: Re: SmallSMT PNP adventure, learning and documenting
Post by: revenue_controls on May 16, 2019, 08:01:56 pm
Thanks revenue,

I am expecting my machine to arrive sometime in first week of June. A  VP-2800HP-CL64-4R minus the conveyor system with a bunch of pushfeeders and a mix of CL feeders.
We decided on this machine due to the number of available feeders.
The 4R head was selected in order to improve on optical fly by characteristics of the in line design of the head.
I had spoken to Michael about the PC ( hence my question ) with the view to minimising vision processing time.Michael's advice an i5 core machine.

Presently most of my machines are older generation.I have a collection of sun work stations i use to run linuxCNC to control the milling machine and laser exposure machines.
Presently investigating ryzen5 and intel core5 machines.

I am following Your exploits with considerable interest; thank You.

Looks like you went all out on the machine 8) ;D :P :-+

my PC is an i7 2700k CPU @ 3.8GHz
NVIDIA GeForce GTX 450 SE video card

Cameras look real time to me.
Title: Re: SmallSMT PNP adventure, learning and documenting
Post by: Kjelt on May 16, 2019, 08:39:02 pm
Check out the walk around video...   
Looks great for that money, quite impressed.
Only thing except for the loose cabling (they could be placed in cableducts) that looks what can be improved are the placer heads.
That looks a bit plastick toyish. If they can do CNC aluminium they could have made that a bit more robust.
Like these for instance: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/tear-down-of-an-assembleonphilips-pp-head/msg1287990/#msg1287990 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/tear-down-of-an-assembleonphilips-pp-head/msg1287990/#msg1287990)

Do they have top down camera in the head or do they have linear encoders mouted or solely rely on the steppermotor encoders ?

If it works, it works ofcourse  :-+
Title: Re: SmallSMT PNP adventure, learning and documenting
Post by: revenue_controls on May 16, 2019, 08:53:20 pm
Check out the walk around video...   
Looks great for that money, quite impressed.
Only thing except for the loose cabling (they could be placed in cableducts) that looks what can be improved are the placer heads.
That looks a bit plastick toyish. If they can do CNC aluminium they could have made that a bit more robust.
Like these for instance: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/tear-down-of-an-assembleonphilips-pp-head/msg1287990/#msg1287990 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/tear-down-of-an-assembleonphilips-pp-head/msg1287990/#msg1287990)

Do they have top down camera in the head or do they have linear encoders mouted or solely rely on the steppermotor encoders ?

If it works, it works ofcourse  :-+

To be fair, you are comparing it with a $100,000. machine...

There is a camera in the head and 2 on the bed. Additionally there are linear encoders built into the x and y screw servos.

Title: Re: SmallSMT PNP adventure, learning and documenting
Post by: Smallsmt on May 16, 2019, 09:13:28 pm
Check out the walk around video...   
Looks great for that money, quite impressed.
Only thing except for the loose cabling (they could be placed in cableducts) that looks what can be improved are the placer heads.
That looks a bit plastick toyish. If they can do CNC aluminium they could have made that a bit more robust.
Like these for instance: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/tear-down-of-an-assembleonphilips-pp-head/msg1287990/#msg1287990 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/tear-down-of-an-assembleonphilips-pp-head/msg1287990/#msg1287990)

Do they have top down camera in the head or do they have linear encoders mouted or solely rely on the steppermotor encoders ?

If it works, it works ofcourse  :-+

Our heads made from aluminium plus linear guide lines from steel.
We use AC Servo motors on X and Y axis using rotary encoder on the ball screw shaft!

Sure we have one top camera and 2 bottom cameras.

Title: Re: SmallSMT PNP adventure, learning and documenting
Post by: IconicPCB on May 16, 2019, 09:16:22 pm
I expect You will find the nozzles are metal not plastic.

I do not think plastic nozzles could be expected to perform at 0402 level of miniaturisation.
'
Nozzles are of Samsung provenance.
Title: Re: SmallSMT PNP adventure, learning and documenting
Post by: revenue_controls on May 19, 2019, 11:56:52 am
first placements!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z6rL--em7zM (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z6rL--em7zM)
Title: Re: SmallSMT PNP adventure, learning and documenting
Post by: Kjelt on May 19, 2019, 11:04:27 pm
When you get the chance I like to see a close up of that reel feedforward mechanism in action to the right  :)
Title: Re: SmallSMT PNP adventure, learning and documenting
Post by: IconicPCB on May 19, 2019, 11:14:11 pm
You mean push feeder?

Just as a point of interest the push feeder can be programed to drive the tape in multiples of a  4mm push for larger pitch components.

On the other hand the pick up nozzle can be programed to pick up components from two adjacent spots 2mm apart on the push feeder so that 2mm pitch components can be handled.This means single push allows two 2mm pitch components to be fed.

 
Title: Re: SmallSMT PNP adventure, learning and documenting
Post by: revenue_controls on May 20, 2019, 10:42:55 am
When you get the chance I like to see a close up of that reel feedforward mechanism in action to the right  :)

I'll get you that soon.

Push feeders done. And with paper and plastic tapes. we'll see how the plastic tapes do???
currently working with the tube feeder (vibration).
Title: Re: SmallSMT PNP adventure, learning and documenting
Post by: revenue_controls on May 24, 2019, 02:38:11 pm
Sorry for the delay in information and updates, but i am currently busy with other projects. I will continue with the PNP machine next week. I still plan to do an in-depth review and hopefully video tutorials.
Title: Re: SmallSMT PNP adventure, learning and documenting
Post by: revenue_controls on June 10, 2019, 08:42:19 am
After using the machine for a few weeks now, and getting everything dialed in, I think I have a much better understanding of its abilities. There was much to learn and I have learned a lot! I have made some mistakes and have asked some stupid questions. Michael has been very patient with me. But the machine is working great and is very accurate and fast. I believe the machine will be a great asset to my business.

At first the "Vision Placer" software seemed very complex, but now it all makes sense. I am completely comfortable with it now and can configure new parts easily.

I am supersized by the versatility of the machines configuration options when it comes to feeder types; cl, push, tray, tube and cut tape.

There is much to tell you about, but for now check out the latest video.... more to come ....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4hxIRsbjNdY (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4hxIRsbjNdY)
Title: Re: SmallSMT PNP adventure, learning and documenting
Post by: IconicPCB on June 10, 2019, 02:53:21 pm
Good to have Your point of view.
Our feeders are due to arrive by end of this week and the machine shortly after.

And then the fun starts... with a ...why...??
Title: Re: SmallSMT PNP adventure, learning and documenting
Post by: revenue_controls on June 10, 2019, 08:35:33 pm
Good to have Your point of view.
Our feeders are due to arrive by end of this week and the machine shortly after.

And then the fun starts... with a ...why...??

In the USA saying "why" means you are very happy with a result...

no.. it's obvious "the lights not on"...

feel free to contact me with any questions.
Title: Re: SmallSMT PNP adventure, learning and documenting
Post by: NorthGuy on June 10, 2019, 11:22:25 pm
There is much to tell you about, but for now check out the latest video....

What's that sound when it does vision?
Title: Re: SmallSMT PNP adventure, learning and documenting
Post by: Smallsmt on June 10, 2019, 11:52:28 pm
Quote
What's that sound when it does vision?

Working vacuum generators produce this sound!
Title: Re: SmallSMT PNP adventure, learning and documenting
Post by: IconicPCB on June 12, 2019, 05:47:48 pm
Our machine is on its way.

Feeders expected to get here by end of week, machine due to land in about 4 days.
Title: Re: SmallSMT PNP adventure, learning and documenting
Post by: revenue_controls on June 13, 2019, 01:14:21 am
Big announcement...

My company, Revenue Control Systems, here in the United States is now the official east cost distributor for the complete line of SmallSMT pick and place machines!

We will provide fast and direct sales and customer support from Williamsburg Virginia, USA. We will also provide additional services like installation, training and others to come.

www.RCSpnp.com (http://www.RCSpnp.com) (under construction)

sorry for the ad, but I think the forum should know.


BTW, this was not my original intention when I first decided to purchase the machine ( I have an existing manufacturing and installation company that the machine was purchased for). After successfully using the machine I purchased for about a month, we decided to pursue the opportunity of becoming a distributor for SmallSMT. We think the products are well engineered and manufactured and all that was needed was direct US based support. I  have over 30 years of eletro-machanical system integration, installation and service experience which I believe to be a great asset to the SmallSMT product line.
Title: Re: SmallSMT PNP adventure, learning and documenting
Post by: ebastler on June 13, 2019, 01:54:13 am
My company, Revenue Control Systems, here in the United States is now the official east cost distributor for the complete line of SmallSMT pick and place machines!

Just curious, and only mildly off-topic: How did a company which makes access control systems end up with the name "revenue control systems"?
A "revenue control system" sounds like something my employer, a NYSE listed company, would be interested in...  ;)
Title: Re: SmallSMT PNP adventure, learning and documenting
Post by: revenue_controls on June 13, 2019, 02:08:06 am
I was in the parking (lot) control systems industry for 10 years. The systems to issue time stamped tickets and collect the parking fees is know as revenue controls. I stole the name. I even developed a Fee computer (like a cash register but based on time calculations to generate a parking fee). it was the first PC based system in the industry at the time, all previous systems were purpose built machines, the industry was behind the POS industry.
Title: Re: SmallSMT PNP adventure, learning and documenting
Post by: mrpackethead on June 13, 2019, 05:38:15 am
BTW, this was not my original intention when I first decided to purchase the machine ( I have an existing manufacturing and installation company that the machine was purchased for). After successfully using the machine I purchased for about a month, we decided to pursue the opportunity of becoming a distributor for SmallSMT. We think the products are well engineered and manufactured and all that was needed was direct US based support. I  have over 30 years of eletro-machanical system integration, installation and service experience which I believe to be a great asset to the SmallSMT product line.

 Now hoping for a independant user-review.   Also if you have big announcements it’s good if the Chinese factory who’s making it doesn’t leak that out before you annouce it. 
Title: Re: SmallSMT PNP adventure, learning and documenting
Post by: mrpackethead on June 13, 2019, 06:13:48 am
Our machine is on its way.

Feeders expected to get here by end of week, machine due to land in about 4 days.

Are you going to set up a distributorship in Australia as well?   Hope not, really hoping for an indepedant unbias end user review.
Title: Re: SmallSMT PNP adventure, learning and documenting
Post by: IconicPCB on June 13, 2019, 06:51:39 am
trpackethead,

Your bias is now plainly on display, are you not biased AGAINST something that is not what You are doing.
Are your comments and opinions BIASED in favor of Your way of doing things?

Please do not go about peddling YOUR BIAS and ascribing it to me.

MY MOTTO, IN WHAT EVER I DO DECIDE TO DO. HAS ALWAYS BEEN SINCERE EFFORT.


If You wish to have a truly acceptable independent review, put Your money where Your mouth is , purchase a machine and rip it to bits.
Only then will Your opinion and experience make a genuine unbiased contribution to the discussion otherwise marred by tendentious commentary.

Accept the diversity of opinions and solutions.
Title: Re: SmallSMT PNP adventure, learning and documenting
Post by: mrpackethead on June 13, 2019, 08:16:49 am
I’ll take that as a yes then iconic. When will I be able to place an order? Being able to order from an Australian company will remove much of the risk associated with it. 
Title: Re: SmallSMT PNP adventure, learning and documenting
Post by: revenue_controls on June 13, 2019, 09:25:57 am
Contact me for special Maker/Hacker Space pricing...
Title: Re: SmallSMT PNP adventure, learning and documenting
Post by: NorthGuy on June 13, 2019, 01:45:46 pm
Contact me for special Maker/Hacker Space pricing...

Looking back through the thread, this wasn't entirely unexpected :)
Title: Re: SmallSMT PNP adventure, learning and documenting
Post by: mrpackethead on June 13, 2019, 05:04:17 pm
Not unexpected at all.  :-)
Title: Re: SmallSMT PNP adventure, learning and documenting
Post by: revenue_controls on June 13, 2019, 08:36:56 pm
It was a completely innocent turn of events and not my original intention.
Title: Re: SmallSMT PNP adventure, learning and documenting
Post by: Kjelt on June 14, 2019, 12:22:52 am
When you get the chance I like to see a close up of that reel feedforward mechanism in action to the right  :)
;)
Title: Re: SmallSMT PNP adventure, learning and documenting
Post by: revenue_controls on June 14, 2019, 12:29:06 am
I will try to get you that today or tomorrow....
Currently working on the website...
Title: Re: SmallSMT PNP adventure, learning and documenting
Post by: revenue_controls on June 14, 2019, 06:01:38 am
push feeder demo:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T0FAR_S3n3M (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T0FAR_S3n3M)
Title: Re: SmallSMT PNP adventure, learning and documenting
Post by: Kjelt on June 14, 2019, 06:27:10 am
push feeder demo:
:-+ thanks for sharing.
So it is pneumatic cylinder with a fixed stroke of probably 4mm ?
Does the manual say you can only use the 4mm component pitch reels ?

Interesting concept also for the plastick cover tape remover.
It looks like they use one motor for the entire rack of feeders?
First give a bit more space so all plastick is loose then reverse and tighten it.
Probably some sort of play/slack so the plastick won't tear.
Very clever to cut costs  :)
Title: Re: SmallSMT PNP adventure, learning and documenting
Post by: revenue_controls on June 14, 2019, 06:38:17 am
push feeder demo:
So it is pneumatic cylinder with a fixed stroke of probably 4mm ?
Does the manual say you can only use the 4mm component pitch reels ?

Yes, the stroke is adjustable in the sw.


push feeder demo:
Interesting concept also for the plastick cover tape remover.
It looks like they use one motor for the entire rack of feeders?
First give a bit more space so all plastick is loose then reverse and tighten it.
Probably some sort of play/slack so the plastick won't tear.
Very clever to cut costs  :)

yes, the cost savings on the "push" feeders is what attracted me in the first place.
Title: Re: SmallSMT PNP adventure, learning and documenting
Post by: IconicPCB on June 14, 2019, 06:43:15 am
From what i understand the feeders can do multiple pushes to handle  larger pitch components.
The pick and place head can do sub 4 mm pick up locations such that a 2mm tape gets pushed 4mm and the heads tracks previously emptied pockets in 2 mm tape thus utilising all components in a 2 mm tape.
Title: Re: SmallSMT PNP adventure, learning and documenting
Post by: Smallsmt on June 14, 2019, 03:52:32 pm
From what i understand the feeders can do multiple pushes to handle  larger pitch components.
The pick and place head can do sub 4 mm pick up locations such that a 2mm tape gets pushed 4mm and the heads tracks previously emptied pockets in 2 mm tape thus utilising all components in a 2 mm tape.

That's right the push feeder head always move 4mm or multiples of 4 by doing multiple strokes.
For 2mm pitch the software modify the pickup position for the second part.
Title: Re: SmallSMT PNP adventure, learning and documenting
Post by: TJ232 on June 14, 2019, 06:53:44 pm
From what i understand the feeders can do multiple pushes to handle  larger pitch components.
The pick and place head can do sub 4 mm pick up locations such that a 2mm tape gets pushed 4mm and the heads tracks previously emptied pockets in 2 mm tape thus utilising all components in a 2 mm tape.

That's right the push feeder head always move 4mm or multiples of 4 by doing multiple strokes.
For 2mm pitch the software modify the pickup position for the second part.

And how do you avoid the second uncovered part to not jump around until second pick up is done? It's a shutter cover system or something like that?

Asking about because I have used in the past some feeders with similar 4mm step only, dual pick&retry style without cover for the parts, but we had a lot of jumping parts all over the place, especially 0402, so we dropped that kind of feeders.

Title: Re: SmallSMT PNP adventure, learning and documenting
Post by: Smallsmt on June 15, 2019, 06:16:52 am
From what i understand the feeders can do multiple pushes to handle  larger pitch components.
The pick and place head can do sub 4 mm pick up locations such that a 2mm tape gets pushed 4mm and the heads tracks previously emptied pockets in 2 mm tape thus utilising all components in a 2 mm tape.

That's right the push feeder head always move 4mm or multiples of 4 by doing multiple strokes.
For 2mm pitch the software modify the pickup position for the second part.

And how do you avoid the second uncovered part to not jump around until second pick up is done? It's a shutter cover system or something like that?

Asking about because I have used in the past some feeders with similar 4mm step only, dual pick&retry style without cover for the parts, but we had a lot of jumping parts all over the place, especially 0402, so we dropped that kind of feeders.

The parts are moved 4mm forward with closed pockets and then opened together. Components do not jump out when not in use. This is only critical for parts in plastic tapes. Here electrostatic forces of the masking tape can cause problems.
Title: Re: SmallSMT PNP adventure, learning and documenting
Post by: Koen on June 16, 2019, 04:11:41 am
Revenue, are you going to be distributing these machines in the USA?
Sure I had disagreements with mrpackethead over this but I have to concede that he knew it all along. Proceed with caution, I reread this topic and it clearly is a polished infomercial. Wow, my son figured it out in 10 minutes. So easy, so great, such support, who even cares about tariffs, totally didn't think about selling them until I did, just made an account to share my fascinating experience.
Title: Re: SmallSMT PNP adventure, learning and documenting
Post by: revenue_controls on June 16, 2019, 05:43:13 am
sorry, not true.
Title: Re: SmallSMT PNP adventure, learning and documenting
Post by: revenue_controls on June 16, 2019, 06:17:45 am
Its actually good old American capitalism at work, I saw an opportunity and am taking it. Its a great product, it just needs US support.
I really had no intention  to start another company. My existing business is doing very well.
The comment about my son figuring out the software/machine is just a proud father bragging. If you have a son you may know this feeling.
It was my mistake to not factor in the tariffs when making my decision to purchase the machine but in retrospect the machine still cost me less then a US made machine of the same class. I did want to buy from a US manufacture (if you knew me you would know this to be true, just check out my website) but the pickings were slim and from what I was able to compare , the smallSMT machine is better in construction, capabilities and price. my machine can place a 10mm part passing over another 10mm part. Please let me know if this a a common feature of a $10k machine? This plus the savings that the push feeders offer (don't need to buy cartage feeders) make this a great product for the US market. I just took the opportunity to get involved with selling it.

 
Title: Re: SmallSMT PNP adventure, learning and documenting
Post by: revenue_controls on June 16, 2019, 06:23:28 am
Check it out...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ItB7LsXSbk (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ItB7LsXSbk)
Title: Re: SmallSMT PNP adventure, learning and documenting
Post by: revenue_controls on June 16, 2019, 06:34:22 am
If you check out my website, you will see what I have to offer, in terms of service and support to the PnP machine/equipment industry in the US. We answer the phone virtually 24 hours a day! Every day! "Just call us". How quickly does your manufactures rep take to respond to you?
Title: Re: SmallSMT PNP adventure, learning and documenting
Post by: ebastler on June 16, 2019, 06:43:46 am
I really had no intention  to start another company. [...]

Well, we won't be able to disprove that. But the set of clues Koen has listed is quite consistent and convincing. I would say that registering a new account just for the purpose of documenting your "personal" experience with the machine is a strong indicator of your intent, with hindsight.

With your most recent posts you are not making things better, and I don't think they are adequate. Plain old advertising does not belong in this section of the forum. I would encourage you to remove those last posts.
Title: Re: SmallSMT PNP adventure, learning and documenting
Post by: revenue_controls on June 16, 2019, 06:51:22 am
WE are taking orders now...
Title: Re: SmallSMT PNP adventure, learning and documenting
Post by: revenue_controls on June 16, 2019, 06:56:03 am
I get it, the forum is only for complaining. Lets not solve anything.

Im offering a solution to the American PnP market place from a grass-root user experience.
Title: Re: SmallSMT PNP adventure, learning and documenting
Post by: revenue_controls on June 16, 2019, 07:01:08 am
I think this information is what this forum/community needs. Unless you would like to continue to listen to other characters on this site complain about everything.
Title: Re: SmallSMT PNP adventure, learning and documenting
Post by: ebastler on June 16, 2019, 07:03:45 am
I have reported this thread and will let the moderators decide. This is not about "complaining vs. solutions", but about your blunt advertising. There is a place for that in the EEVblog forum, but it is not in this section.
Title: Re: SmallSMT PNP adventure, learning and documenting
Post by: revenue_controls on June 16, 2019, 07:12:29 am
I really had no intention  to start another company. [...]

 I would say that registering a new account just for the purpose of documenting your "personal" experience with the machine is a strong indicator of your intent, with hindsight.


To be perfectly honest, The reason I registering a new account and made my initial post was just for the fun of it, for something to do. I just wanted to play with the machine and make videos of it. That's it. I only told my wife that I "needed" the machine for production. The real reason was I needed a new toy. There is no conspiracy going on here.

So then, when the opportunity presented itself to sell the machines I took it. Now this will keep be busy playing with electro-machinical machines for the next 10-20 years. Sounds like fun to me... So my initial plan has worked out great.
Title: Re: SmallSMT PNP adventure, learning and documenting
Post by: revenue_controls on June 16, 2019, 07:14:46 am
I have reported this thread and will let the moderators decide. This is not about "complaining vs. solutions", but about your blunt advertising. There is a place for that in the EEVblog forum, but it is not in this section.

I bet you are a lot of fun at parties.
Title: Re: SmallSMT PNP adventure, learning and documenting
Post by: revenue_controls on June 16, 2019, 07:16:25 am
Would you like to buy a machine before I go?
Title: Re: SmallSMT PNP adventure, learning and documenting
Post by: Kjelt on June 16, 2019, 07:33:48 am
A bit harsh to accuse someone without hard evidence ?
It could also have turned in a "bash" the machine topic if there had been many errors or faults in the machine.
Clearly he is a happy customer that just sees an opportunity, nothing wrong with that IMO.
Title: Re: SmallSMT PNP adventure, learning and documenting
Post by: revenue_controls on June 16, 2019, 07:40:27 am
Thank you, that's exactly it.
Title: Re: SmallSMT PNP adventure, learning and documenting
Post by: Koen on June 16, 2019, 07:58:17 am
You should ask Dave about advertising on the forum, on the banner at the top. It would support the forum, your future clients, prove your seriousness, introduce your company and bring you much advertisement. This is the type of mutually supportive can-do attitude this forum thrives on.
Title: Re: SmallSMT PNP adventure, learning and documenting
Post by: revenue_controls on June 16, 2019, 08:43:57 am
that sounds like a great Idea, thanks.