Author Topic: SMALLSMT Vision Placer Pick & Place machines  (Read 202822 times)

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Offline Styno

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Re: SMALLSMT Vision Placer Pick & Place machines
« Reply #650 on: September 24, 2021, 06:55:36 am »
So I guess what most regulars on this forum are curious about: how's the software? We see countless topics about Chinese machines that are pretty good hardware-wise but where software is (seriously) lacking. How is this different with this machine?
 

Offline SmallsmtTopic starter

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Re: SMALLSMT Vision Placer Pick & Place machines
« Reply #651 on: September 24, 2021, 08:25:28 am »
So I guess what most regulars on this forum are curious about: how's the software? We see countless topics about Chinese machines that are pretty good hardware-wise but where software is (seriously) lacking. How is this different with this machine?

Our software is under continous development since 2014 we add functionality and for sure we need to fix bugs too.
But I know that our software is the most powerful on the market with excellent support.
We offer own support forum too! http://www.smallsmt.net/

Quote
We see countless topics about Chinese machines that are pretty good hardware-wise
A big problem is that these assessments are mainly made by laymen and are not accurate!
If we only look at the design of the placement heads, there are already very big differences in quality and precision.
The use of inferior bearings and guides can only be recognised when the machine has been working under production conditions for a longer period of time.
A machine price is composed of the use of its components!

Other Chinese providers also have good software solutions now, but they still lag behind ours in terms of functionality. If production planning is also required, our PNPCreator software is used, which allows the PNP data to be managed and the feeder assignments to be programmed offline. Of course, other features such as the management of variants and the creation of documentation are also integrated. We offer a comprehensive software solution for our machines. https://www.smallsmt.biz/pnpcreator/

This new machine has new V3 controller concept installed. Head and feeder have own controller communicating over CAN bus with main unit which has Network connection to PC. This results in reduced wiring in the drag chains and increased reliability.

The machine is perfect for LED lamp production and it is precise to build high density boards too.





« Last Edit: September 24, 2021, 08:37:55 am by Smallsmt »
 

Offline Styno

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Re: SMALLSMT Vision Placer Pick & Place machines
« Reply #652 on: September 24, 2021, 08:53:55 pm »
Our software is under continous development since 2014 we add functionality and for sure we need to fix bugs too.
But I know that our software is the most powerful on the market with excellent support.
We offer own support forum too! http://www.smallsmt.net/
Even compared to the big guns, like Essemtec? A forum for support is great.

Quote
A big problem is that these assessments are mainly made by laymen and are not accurate!
Fair enough, most will not have the experience of both operating a high end machine and a low cost Chinese.
Quote
If we only look at the design of the placement heads, there are already very big differences in quality and precision.
It’s difficult to find statistical numbers (sigma) for positional accuracy for these cheap machines. Perhaps that says enough, but maybe they are good enough for their stated accuracy.
The use of inferior bearings and guides can only be recognised when the machine has been working under production conditions for a longer period of time.
Quote
A machine price is composed of the use of its components!
I can agree with that only when PnP’s are a mass produced product, which they aren’t. I don’t think the component cost of an Essemtec Puma is the -say- €100k they ask it, much of the price will be determined by e.g. development cost.

But, do I hear you sayi that smallsmt’s machines have better bearings, motors and guides than e.g. the ones from Huawei or YX?
Quote
Chinese providers also have good software solutions now, but they still lag behind ours in terms of functionality. If production planning is also required, our PNPCreator software is used, which allows the PNP data to be managed and the feeder assignments to be programmed offline. Of course, other features such as the management of variants and the creation of documentation are also integrated. We offer a comprehensive software solution for our machines. https://www.smallsmt.biz/pnpcreator/
Fine, I’ll take your word on that.

Quote
This new machine has new V3 controller concept installed. Head and feeder have own controller communicating over CAN bus with main unit which has Network connection to PC. This results in reduced wiring in the drag chains and increased reliability.
This means this PnP doesn’t use the CL type of feeder then? Is it a custom/new intelligent design?

Quote
The machine is perfect for LED lamp production and it is precise to build high density boards too.
LED lamps often are larger than the available placement area so this means the machine is able to move the board during a placement job?
If these feeders are ‘intelligent’ that would be a good start for high-mix scenario’s. Is it targeted for that use case as well?
« Last Edit: September 24, 2021, 08:58:24 pm by Styno »
 

Offline SmallsmtTopic starter

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Re: SMALLSMT Vision Placer Pick & Place machines
« Reply #653 on: September 24, 2021, 10:01:03 pm »
Quote
Even compared to the big guns, like Essemtec?
I was talking clearly about chinese machines we can't compete with essemtec's software!

Quote
But, do I hear you sayi that smallsmt’s machines have better bearings, motors and guides than e.g. the ones from Huawei or YX?
Yes we use original HIWIN products and check if anyone of them have 3x Y-axis guidelines too!

Quote
This means this PnP doesn’t use the CL type of feeder then? Is it a custom/new intelligent design?
I was talking about feeder controller! We still use CL feeders there is no reason for us to change to electric feeders.

Quote
LED lamps often are larger than the available placement area so this means the machine is able to move the board during a placement job?
If these feeders are ‘intelligent’ that would be a good start for high-mix scenario’s. Is it targeted for that use case as well?

You can use up to 600mm width if you don't use the parking zones.
We will not support intelligent feeders they are too expensive and you receive only few advantages.

In some month we will add a software module to identify the CL feeder using the top camera and QR code stickers.

 

Offline JURP

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Re: SMALLSMT Vision Placer Pick & Place machines
« Reply #654 on: October 03, 2021, 06:40:03 pm »
Drawn from Chinese sources
Raptor - technical data

Max size PCB: 280*630mm (without conveyor)
Axis shift: X560mm, Y660mm
Z shift: 60mm
Z rotation: 0-360°
Heads: 8
Nozzle changer: 19pcs
Placing: 8000cp/h
Position accuracy: 0.01mm
Placing components: 0402,0603,0805,1206, or higher
Servo drivers: Zhejiang Hechuan Technology (HCFA) 1000W
Rails+ball screw:  Hiwin + TBI Motion
Pneumatic CL feeders: 8, 12, 16, 24mm
Number CL feeders: 64
Components test: visual control and vacuum test
Vacuum generator: internal electric pump
Compressed air: external source
Size: 1385*1260*1310mm
Weight: 600kg
SW: "standard for the whole product family" Vision Placer


I'll be ugly, as always.
And from now on, Michael won't talk to me. Sorry.

Original name: Lisheng LS960SF
Price on China: ~60000Juan or ~$18000 without transport
 

Offline SmallsmtTopic starter

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Re: SMALLSMT Vision Placer Pick & Place machines
« Reply #655 on: October 04, 2021, 09:37:11 am »
Quote
I'll be ugly, as always.
And from now on, Michael won't talk to me. Sorry.

Why should i not talk to you?

Our exclusive right is selling on international market and chinese market is done by our partner.

We offer support and warranty only for our machines not on chinese market!

If international customers want to buy they are directly send to us.




 

Offline JURP

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Re: SMALLSMT Vision Placer Pick & Place machines
« Reply #656 on: October 04, 2021, 05:42:37 pm »
But will they buy?
What will be the price at Smallsmt?
She'll decide.
There's been a lot of change in the P&P market in the last 2 years.
We have VP-2500HP-CL32 from you.

As planned:
1) initial enthusiasm
2) realization sobering up
3) search for culprits
4) punishing the innocent

i am in phase 2). Fortunately, phases 3) and 4) are out of the question for me.
After 2 years the enthusiasm wearing off, and I know I want a machine with only CL feeders and 4-8 heads.
Now I would have a dilemma what to buy.
VP-2800HP-CL64-4RCV ? (~$21500)
Raptor ? ($??)
Rival?  for example K1830 (>$20000)

What do I get-against the competition?
Z-axis probe (great, I want that one now)
19-nozzle changer (with 8 heads I'll skip it)
SW? Here's a discussion.
 

Offline SmallsmtTopic starter

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Re: SMALLSMT Vision Placer Pick & Place machines
« Reply #657 on: October 04, 2021, 06:43:47 pm »
Quote
SW? Here's a discussion.
I think you need a training.
We have a lot of customers using these machines in daily production!

Quote
19-nozzle changer (with 8 heads I'll skip it)
Nozzle changer is needed and always included!

 

Offline JURP

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Re: SMALLSMT Vision Placer Pick & Place machines
« Reply #658 on: October 04, 2021, 07:57:11 pm »
I've already gotten used to SW.
So a few observations from my private list of features:

2) blocking SW during pause-sometimes
E.g. the clear cover tape breaks, I pause the assembly with the Pause button, the machine stops - O.K.
I peel off the tape, insert a new one, etc., press Regain and NOTHING. From this point on, there is no way to start ...the placing process.
The only help is to exit SW, pull the nozzles out of the heads, (reset the CPU board) and restart SW.

3) Optical alignment sometimes rotates 90°
Sometimes it aligns, e.g. resistor 1206, goes over the camera, aligns, aligns, and then suddenly rotates the component 90°, drives off and puts it down.
However, the image appears to be fine.

4) Non-optimised nozzle change

5) I miss PCB rotation in panellization
I have a panelized PCB so that the boards in even rows are rotated 180° and shifted.
For this there must be 2 projects with different PCB positions on the panel.

6) Partially lowered head-motion
Several times (3-4) it has happened to me that for some reason the head has remained partially lowered.
On at least 2 occasions, I noticed it when going to the nozzle changer.
Bump, inverter spring displaced. After the reset, all O.K.
Wheel on engine axis tightened.

7) Feeders database corruption
2* when I quit and saved the project, it happened to save a corrupted
feeders database. When I restarted the software, it did not load.

I repeat that I'm used to SW, but it's not 100%.
 

Offline SmallsmtTopic starter

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Re: SMALLSMT Vision Placer Pick & Place machines
« Reply #659 on: October 04, 2021, 09:08:58 pm »
Quote
2) blocking SW during pause-sometimes
E.g. the clear cover tape breaks, I pause the assembly with the Pause button, the machine stops - O.K.
I peel off the tape, insert a new one, etc., press Regain and NOTHING. From this point on, there is no way to start ...the placing process.
The only help is to exit SW, pull the nozzles out of the heads, (reset the CPU board) and restart SW.

If there is a bug why don't you report to our forum and we fix this?
Normally you stop PNP job fix the problem and continue using start from Line command.
To prevent cover tape break:
By the way did you checked the winder calibration values? (Manual chapter 4.7.5)
Did you adjust the cover tape a little diagonal to keep the cover tape away from push needles?

Quote
3) Optical alignment sometimes rotates 90°
Sometimes it aligns, e.g. resistor 1206, goes over the camera, aligns, aligns, and then suddenly rotates the component 90°, drives off and puts it down.
However, the image appears to be fine.
Use high brightness setting and adjust contrast this case could only happen in 3 cases:
- poor adjusted vision parameters
- Pickup height not well adjusted and part jumps under nozzle during pickup
- Precision settings wrong! (0/0) is not allowed! ( you can enable the log file and check the problem reported or send to me and i help!)

Quote
4) Non-optimised nozzle change
Use strategy sort by nozzle and nozzle changes minimized

Quote
5) I miss PCB rotation in panellization
I have a panelized PCB so that the boards in even rows are rotated 180° and shifted.
For this there must be 2 projects with different PCB positions on the panel.
Useless function if you rotate PCB inside a panel create a PNP file over complete panel!
The panel function is step and repeat!

Quote
6) Partially lowered head-motion
Several times (3-4) it has happened to me that for some reason the head has remained partially lowered.
On at least 2 occasions, I noticed it when going to the nozzle changer.
Bump, inverter spring displaced. After the reset, all O.K.
Wheel on engine axis tightened.
This happened if you hit a surface and z-axis loose position.
You need to adjust  nozzle changer slot positions or check nozzles inserted into changer well to prevent such cases.

Quote
7) Feeders database corruption
2* when I quit and saved the project, it happened to save a corrupted
feeders database. When I restarted the software, it did not load.
It maybe depends on you computer file system corrupted or SSD caching problem!


In any case you know Jiri, if you have any problem or question ask me, post in our support forum as you did before, or ask for a web meeting to do a training.

Quote
I repeat that I'm used to SW, but it's not 100%.
I don't know any software that is 100%







 

Offline JURP

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Re: SMALLSMT Vision Placer Pick & Place machines
« Reply #660 on: October 10, 2021, 02:21:02 pm »
I'll send answers and comments directly to Michael so I don't bother others.
It's just gonna take me a while to write it up and "translate" it.

Otherwise, congratulations to Michael for posting the Raptor price.
Compared to the VP-2800HP-CL64-4RCV, it is very interesting and quite cannibalizing.
 

Offline SmallsmtTopic starter

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Re: SMALLSMT Vision Placer Pick & Place machines
« Reply #661 on: October 10, 2021, 07:46:38 pm »
Quote
Compared to the VP-2800HP-CL64-4RCV, it is very interesting and quite cannibalizing.

Yes this is right but:

There are some reasons for the VP-2800HP-CL64-RCV.
It has mostly the same components like the RAPTOR inside a tight space.
If you need to move the PNP machine through a 90cm office door this is the right choice.

The Raptor is a big machine and placement speed need high weight to reduce vibrations. (600Kg vs 185Kg)
Our first 3 Raptor orders receive an introductional discount of 10% in Oktober.

We offer 10% discount on our machines in Black Friday Week from 22 to 26 November 2021.
 
 

Offline SmallsmtTopic starter

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Re: SMALLSMT Vision Placer Pick & Place machines
« Reply #662 on: November 07, 2021, 10:35:00 pm »

Raptor final design finished.


We are happy 2 machines sold to Australia.




https://www.smallsmt.biz/raptor/
« Last Edit: November 10, 2021, 06:33:34 pm by Smallsmt »
 

Offline SmallsmtTopic starter

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Re: SMALLSMT Vision Placer Pick & Place machines
« Reply #663 on: November 19, 2021, 02:06:55 pm »
We offer a special discount of 10% for all Machines ordered during BLACK Friday week.
The discount is valid from 22.11.2021 to 28.11.2021.




https://www.smallsmt.biz/
« Last Edit: November 30, 2021, 06:06:06 pm by Smallsmt »
 

Offline SmallsmtTopic starter

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Re: SMALLSMT Vision Placer Pick & Place machines
« Reply #664 on: December 22, 2021, 10:13:09 pm »
First customer video online for our new RAPTOR PNP Machine

https://youtu.be/ZXkqkAUq5RI



 

Offline Sie

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Re: SMALLSMT Vision Placer Pick & Place machines
« Reply #665 on: April 21, 2022, 10:52:49 am »
I had been making everything by hand with a magnifying glass and tweezers but the quantity was getting too high for that now.
I was fortunate enough to pick up a second hand VP-2500HP last autumn at an amazing low price.
It had a few issue and I needed to spend some money (more than I paid for the machine) to get it working well.
The support I received from Michael in Germany and Sunny in China has been nothing short of amazing.
I've been in the electronics industry for over 30 years and have never known such attentive support.
I have even sent messages to the support on a Sunday evening, expecting a reply sometime on Monday and then receiving a reply a few minutes later...amazing!

The machine is not trivial to set up (of course, it's a fairly complex process due to the accuracy required) but the documentation is very good and the support is excellent and fast.
The support helped me to identify which parts needed to be upgraded and which parts needed to be replaced and once that was done, the machine now works very well.

The software is very good and intuitive to use, and again with very good documentation.
Over the last 6 months or so I have produced hundreds of boards on the VP-2500HP machine and would definitely recommend SmallSMT to anyone that is looking for a machine and only need to produce a few hundred boards every now and then.
My boards use parts down to 0402 (imp). The machine will handle parts down to 0201 but I do not use such small parts at the moment.

Feel free to ask any questions about this machine and/or the software if you want an answer from a normal actual engineer that uses a SmallSMT machine on a regular basis.

When I get chance, I'll post a video of my VP-2500HP placing components.
 
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Offline SmallsmtTopic starter

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Re: SMALLSMT Vision Placer Pick & Place machines
« Reply #666 on: April 30, 2022, 08:58:50 pm »
We are on SMTCONNECT in NUERNBERG

You will find us in hall 5 booth 314

Send message to sunny@smallsmt.biz if you need entrance coupon.

We invite you to visit us at our stand for coffee and snacks .

The new PNP machine PECKER will be shown.
This machine use our new HS V3 controller increasing resolution (0.01mm) and speed. New machine electronics design using integrated PNP head controller and CAN bus communication.
The RAPTOR design downsized.



https://www.smallsmt.biz/pecker/
 

Offline IconicPCB

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Re: SMALLSMT Vision Placer Pick & Place machines
« Reply #667 on: May 02, 2022, 06:32:08 am »
Can the older machines be upgraded to the V3 controller?
 

Offline SmallsmtTopic starter

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Re: SMALLSMT Vision Placer Pick & Place machines
« Reply #668 on: May 02, 2022, 09:40:17 am »
 
Quote
Can the older machines be upgraded to the V3 controller?
It should be possible but it's a lot of work to do.
 

Offline SmallsmtTopic starter

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Re: SMALLSMT Vision Placer Pick & Place machines
« Reply #669 on: July 29, 2022, 02:20:21 pm »
We offer a promotion in summer 2022. 10% discount on all products valid from 1.08.2022 to 01.09.2022.

A good chance to receive a large discount on our newest Pick and Place machines.

  • Increased performance
  • 10um resolution
  • integrated industrial PC
  • CAN bus connected units for reduced cabling and reliability
  • Automatic calibration routines
  • Z-axis sensor tip for pickup height measurements
  • Quality parts used for longlivety
  • Life time support using email, web meeting, forum



Our current machine range



https://www.smallsmt.biz/2022/07/29/summer-sale-2022/
 

Offline SmallsmtTopic starter

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Re: SMALLSMT Vision Placer Pick & Place machines
« Reply #670 on: January 29, 2023, 11:38:44 am »

We are manufacturer for Pick & Place machines used for professional SMT assembly of pcb for prototypes and small batches.

Depending on your demands we offer simple pick and place machines up to our High Precision HP machines.

The unbeatable solution for lots of feeders in a small space with a large working area and high precision.

More than 220 machines sold worldwide in the past 5 years!

https://www.smallsmt.biz/references/
https://www.smallsmt.biz/products/

We added new autocalibration features a video will follow soon.














 

Offline SmallsmtTopic starter

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Re: SMALLSMT Vision Placer Pick & Place machines
« Reply #671 on: April 06, 2023, 06:11:34 pm »
We have some discount this week!



New support for electrical feeders too





https://www.smallsmt.biz/products/
 

Offline SmallsmtTopic starter

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Re: SMALLSMT Vision Placer Pick & Place machines
« Reply #672 on: May 10, 2023, 07:54:12 am »
I would like to show you a 0201 placement video that we published a few weeks ago.
https://youtu.be/70hZ_jeweXM

 

Offline SmallsmtTopic starter

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Re: SMALLSMT Vision Placer Pick & Place machines
« Reply #673 on: May 29, 2023, 01:52:25 pm »
New PNP Machine SMALLSMT PANDA is coming soon!

https://www.smallsmt.biz/2023/05/29/new-pnp-machine-smallsmt-panda-is-coming-soon/

 Our new pick and place machine for the entry into SMD placement is called PANDA. This machine is based on a CORE XY system and is offered in 2 versions.
In the Basic version, an external Windows PC is required for control, which is connected to it via Ethernet and USB.
The PANDA PRO variant also includes a built-in industrial PC that is supplied with Windows 10 PRO.

Both machines have Z-axis sensor for measuring the pick-up heights and 0.01mm X/Y resolution.

All feeders are created from durable aluminium rather than printed plastic. We have built in push feeders on 3 sides with 43x8mm, 19x 12mm, 9x 16mm and 2x24mm lines. Any tray can be mounted in the work area and depending on the PCB size, other software defined feeders can also be set up.

3 cameras with 640x480mm resolution are installed.
The bottom cameras have different optics that can align components up to 30x30mm.

PCB size 300x300mm possible and if JEDEC Tray installed 300x170mm left.

And now the best news the prizes!
The PANDA BASIC variant will start at 3699usd,
the PANDA PRO will cost 4199usd.





 
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Online mikeselectricstuff

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Re: SMALLSMT Vision Placer Pick & Place machines
« Reply #674 on: May 31, 2023, 08:03:08 am »
Spec and pricing looks interesting.
Does "start at" mean that not all the above-listed feeders are included as standard? Or are there other options?
What is the maximum component height?
Quote
The bottom cameras have different optics that can align components up to 30x30mm.
Different to each other? Do you mean it has one camera for larger parts & one for small?
640x480 could be marginal for getting sufficient accuracy for QFPs, unless it can image large parts in multiple sections - can it do that?
Is the software written by your company or China?
Is feeder cover-tape peel force adjustable per-feeder? - lack of this is the downfall of many cheaper machines.
Is there an option for a tube feeder?
When is it likely to be available?
« Last Edit: May 31, 2023, 08:04:52 am by mikeselectricstuff »
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