Author Topic: SMALLSMT Vision Placer Pick & Place machines  (Read 111718 times)

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Offline mrpackethead

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Re: SMALLSMT Vision Placer Pick & Place machines
« Reply #375 on: October 09, 2018, 12:17:13 am »
I fopund a short German review for a VP-2800HP.
The customer bought machine in summer.

https://www.mikrocontroller.net/topic/456193#new

To me, that seems like a few sentences. Not really a review.

How much does it cost to ship to USA, Los Angeles?

also very interested to know you are avoiding US Tarriffs on entry.   What hack do you know that everyone else doe'snt. 
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Offline Smallsmt

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Re: SMALLSMT Vision Placer Pick & Place machines
« Reply #376 on: October 09, 2018, 06:20:41 am »
I fopund a short German review for a VP-2800HP.
The customer bought machine in summer.

https://www.mikrocontroller.net/topic/456193#new

To me, that seems like a few sentences. Not really a review.

How much does it cost to ship to USA, Los Angeles?

For the VP2800HP / VP-2800HP-CL22-4H / VP-2800HP-CL22-2H you need to pay 980usd for shipping to US
 

Offline Smallsmt

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Re: SMALLSMT Vision Placer Pick & Place machines
« Reply #377 on: October 09, 2018, 06:22:22 am »
Quote
also very interested to know you are avoiding US Tarriffs on entry.   What hack do you know that everyone else doe'snt. 

Using the right HS code will help ;)
Other companies know too!
 

Online rx8pilot

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Re: SMALLSMT Vision Placer Pick & Place machines
« Reply #378 on: October 09, 2018, 07:03:55 am »
I don't think that electronics assembly equipment is part of the tariff....... yet.

Is there any way to see or demo a machine here in the US?

Short and misplld from my mobile......

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Offline mrpackethead

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Re: SMALLSMT Vision Placer Pick & Place machines
« Reply #379 on: October 09, 2018, 07:21:43 am »
Quote
also very interested to know you are avoiding US Tarriffs on entry.   What hack do you know that everyone else doe'snt. 

Using the right HS code will help ;)
Other companies know too!

https://circuitsassembly.com/ca/editorial/menu-news/29579-pending-us-tariffs-to-effect-host-of-pcb-equipment-components.html

What tarrif code are you proposing to use?

A PNP Machine very much sounds like  " Automated electronic component placement machines for making printed circuit
assemblies "    ( 8479.89.92 )   which is included.

If your going to specify it as something else,  then think again.  US customs is looking very closely at stuff from the USA right now for this exact reason.  Get caught once and every consignmetn you ever send in will get the 'Full rubber glove' treatment.
« Last Edit: October 09, 2018, 07:23:59 am by mrpackethead »
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Offline Smallsmt

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Re: SMALLSMT Vision Placer Pick & Place machines
« Reply #380 on: October 09, 2018, 07:42:18 am »
You find pick and place machines in different sections so don’t ask me about the code.
We don’t want to destroy this option for our US customers.
 

Offline mrpackethead

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Re: SMALLSMT Vision Placer Pick & Place machines
« Reply #381 on: October 09, 2018, 08:15:09 am »
Confusing your note on your web page, says Ask...

Though its a big red flag for US-customs. 

The Professional Machine providers in the US are not too worried, as their machines are made in Japan / South Korea and Europe.   I'm not sure if there are too many high end machines coming out of china at all.

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Offline mrpackethead

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Re: SMALLSMT Vision Placer Pick & Place machines
« Reply #382 on: October 09, 2018, 08:21:36 am »
84798962 is a code for "Machines and mechanical appliances having individual functions not specified or included elsewhere in this chapter".  So you can't use it.  Becuase in that chapter is 8479.89.92 which is " Automated electronic component placement machines for making printed circuit assemblies"

ANd that code is subject to the new tarrifs.

I see Neoden are also trying that stunt.   Its not going to fly. US customs are smarter than that.


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Offline SMTech

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Re: SMALLSMT Vision Placer Pick & Place machines
« Reply #383 on: October 09, 2018, 08:40:54 am »
Confusing your note on your web page, says Ask...

Though its a big red flag for US-customs. 

The Professional Machine providers in the US are not too worried, as their machines are made in Japan / South Korea and Europe.   I'm not sure if there are too many high end machines coming out of china at all.

I think it is indeed none, perhaps the most significant pick and place out of China is Autotronik which probably hurts both them and Manncorp who must be their biggest reseller, weirdly China make X-Ray, AOI, SPI, printers and Reflow ovens all of which appear to rival machines made elsewhere, and indeed often fill out the lineup of products offered by bigger names. But no native pick and place of any note..
 
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Offline Smallsmt

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Re: SMALLSMT Vision Placer Pick & Place machines
« Reply #384 on: October 25, 2018, 08:25:33 pm »
Here is an interesting customer video from russian customer.
He used a VP-2500DP https://www.smallsmt.biz/midrange-machines/ machine to place 0201 components.
It need to move slow but the result looks good.

https://youtu.be/h8SXJoLXr6U

« Last Edit: October 25, 2018, 08:27:24 pm by Smallsmt »
 

Online rx8pilot

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Re: SMALLSMT Vision Placer Pick & Place machines
« Reply #385 on: October 25, 2018, 08:38:42 pm »
Pretty good placement but not so sure about the economics of that slow speed. Brutally slow.

Do you suppose the speed could be improved with a tighter servo drive system and linear encoders? 4x that speed would still be considered slow even by small-business expectations.
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Offline Kjelt

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Re: SMALLSMT Vision Placer Pick & Place machines
« Reply #386 on: October 25, 2018, 09:07:50 pm »
Place the pcb closer to the camera that would be 2x faster
 

Offline Smallsmt

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Re: SMALLSMT Vision Placer Pick & Place machines
« Reply #387 on: October 25, 2018, 09:19:57 pm »
Pretty good placement but not so sure about the economics of that slow speed. Brutally slow.

Do you suppose the speed could be improved with a tighter servo drive system and linear encoders? 4x that speed would still be considered slow even by small-business expectations.

I think you should understand this machine doesn't handle this small parts normally, so speed is no reason.
The important thing is this russian customer final solved this placement job!
We advice to use HP machines for this small parts.
 

Offline mrpackethead

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Re: SMALLSMT Vision Placer Pick & Place machines
« Reply #388 on: October 26, 2018, 12:30:30 am »
coudl place them by hand faster than that?
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Online rx8pilot

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Re: SMALLSMT Vision Placer Pick & Place machines
« Reply #389 on: October 26, 2018, 12:50:38 am »
coudl place them by hand faster than that?

To be fair.... I would rather have a machine place them slowly than for me to place them slowly by hand. 0201 is brutal. I am steady, have great hand placing gear, good eyesight, stereo microscope, etc..... 0201 is a major PITA.
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Offline Smallsmt

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Re: SMALLSMT Vision Placer Pick & Place machines
« Reply #390 on: October 26, 2018, 05:53:45 am »
coudl place them by hand faster than that?

He could use VP-2500HP (AC servo ball screw spindle machine) to place fast but this VP-2500DP (belt drive) machine is not rated to be able to place 0201!
But it works because the mechanical precision is good.
 

Offline Kjelt

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Re: SMALLSMT Vision Placer Pick & Place machines
« Reply #391 on: October 26, 2018, 07:19:10 am »
He could use VP-2500HP (AC servo ball screw spindle machine) to place fast but this VP-2500DP (belt drive) machine is not rated to be able to place 0201!
But it works because the mechanical precision is good.
Does any of your machines have an absolute linear encoder rail or only rotary encoders or both ?
 

Offline Smallsmt

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Re: SMALLSMT Vision Placer Pick & Place machines
« Reply #392 on: October 26, 2018, 07:40:55 am »
He could use VP-2500HP (AC servo ball screw spindle machine) to place fast but this VP-2500DP (belt drive) machine is not rated to be able to place 0201!
But it works because the mechanical precision is good.
Does any of your machines have an absolute linear encoder rail or only rotary encoders or both ?

All of our HP machines use rotary encoders and AC servo motors directly coupled to ball screw spindle.
Absolute encoder are expensive if you want to receive the same high resolution.
Second problem they are very sensitive against mechanical shock.
This is a huge problem for shipping.
In VP30XX machine we use magnetic linear encoders but they have only 0.02mm resolution.

 

Offline Kjelt

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Re: SMALLSMT Vision Placer Pick & Place machines
« Reply #393 on: October 26, 2018, 08:41:05 am »
So what is then the exact reason for the slow movement if it is not the achieved accuracy.
Is it that the nozzle might drop the part at higher speeds ?
If so, is the speed the problem or the acceleration/jerk ?
Because I thought AC servo control loops had all kinds of S curve and triple loops and vibration suppression filters in their control to prevent this ?
 

Offline Smallsmt

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Re: SMALLSMT Vision Placer Pick & Place machines
« Reply #394 on: October 26, 2018, 10:23:09 am »
Quote
So what is then the exact reason for the slow movement if it is not the achieved accuracy.
Is it that the nozzle might drop the part at higher speeds ?
If so, is the speed the problem or the acceleration/jerk ?
Because I thought AC servo control loops had all kinds of S curve and triple loops and vibration suppression filters in their control to prevent this ?


I don't know why it's so complicated to understand!
This is a stepper motor belt driven machine.
Has no servos.
The belt is acting like a spring if you move fast and will shoot over if movement stops.
On slow movement this will not happen.

This component has 0,4 x 0,6mm size so you need to pickup exactly and if you place it should get placed on coordinate.
That's the simple reason why it need to move slowly on belt machine.

I don't think it need to move as slow as customer adjusted speed but the message is he solved a complicated placement job on his machine.
And the parts where out of placement range we advertise for this machine. (0402 recommend)


If you use our HP machine you can move fast because they are using AC servos with position control and ball screw spindles which can't get longer / shorter when machine stop.

Our HP machines will place 0201 like this: https://www.smallsmt.biz/home/know-how/0201-placement/

 
« Last Edit: October 26, 2018, 10:25:14 am by Smallsmt »
 

Offline Kjelt

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Re: SMALLSMT Vision Placer Pick & Place machines
« Reply #395 on: October 26, 2018, 10:37:19 am »
Ah ok I did not realize that you did not use closed loop steppers. I find that strange personally.
The price difference these days is so low it wouldn't make sense to use nonclosed loop steppers for machines >$3000 IMO.
« Last Edit: October 26, 2018, 10:58:09 am by Kjelt »
 

Offline Smallsmt

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Re: SMALLSMT Vision Placer Pick & Place machines
« Reply #396 on: October 26, 2018, 11:44:11 am »
Ah ok I did not realize that you did not use closed loop steppers. I find that strange personally.
The price difference these days is so low it wouldn't make sense to use nonclosed loop steppers for machines >$3000 IMO.

We use closed loop stepper motors for DP machines but this has no influence for the precision.
You only receive the option to run at higher speeds without loosing steps.

The belt system limits the precision not the stepper motor control!
 

Offline jmelson

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Re: SMALLSMT Vision Placer Pick & Place machines
« Reply #397 on: October 26, 2018, 10:44:48 pm »
Here is an interesting customer video from russian customer.
He used a VP-2500DP https://www.smallsmt.biz/midrange-machines/ machine to place 0201 components.
It need to move slow but the result looks good.
ARRGH!  TWELVE seconds/component?  5 components/minute?  300 components/hour?  Well, that certainly is a depressing result!

Jon
 

Offline Smallsmt

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Re: SMALLSMT Vision Placer Pick & Place machines
« Reply #398 on: October 26, 2018, 10:51:13 pm »
 |
Here is an interesting customer video from russian customer.
He used a VP-2500DP https://www.smallsmt.biz/midrange-machines/ machine to place 0201 components.
It need to move slow but the result looks good.
ARRGH!  TWELVE seconds/component?  5 components/minute?  300 components/hour?  Well, that certainly is a depressing result!

Jon
|O
 

Online rx8pilot

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Re: SMALLSMT Vision Placer Pick & Place machines
« Reply #399 on: October 27, 2018, 12:45:35 am »
|O

Ha! I get it.

The video of the ballscrew machine was pretty encouraging.
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