SMT Production Line: Manual vs Automatic

[Reckless]

I don't know anything about the Phillips line of products.  How do they compare to the Jukis?  What about aftermarket support for parts/service?  My biggest chip is 5mmx5mm so not a problem there.  The machines look big, remind me of the Universal machines.  I don't mind big if it makes sense.  If I can fit 2 Juki machines running 4000 cph in a place where one other machine is doing 5000 cph doesn't make sense to me unless the 5000 never goes down. 

[jmelson]

I don't know anything about the Phillips line of products.  How do they compare to the Jukis?  What about aftermarket support for parts/service?  My biggest chip is 5mmx5mm so not a problem there.  The machines look big, remind me of the Universal machines.  I don't mind big if it makes sense.  If I can fit 2 Juki machines running 4000 cph in a place where one other machine is doing 5000 cph doesn't make sense to me unless the 5000 never goes down.

My experience is VERY narrow.  The only machine I've ever run is my Philips CSM84 (Made by Yamaha, they sell the same machine as, I think, the YM84.)
The CSM84 and others of its vintage were truly built like army tanks.  The nozzles are simple steel tubes, I made my own with a lathe.  Some other machines have very fragile nozzles with complex shapes that would be harder to make.  The up-down is driven by air cylinders, although there was a Z-axis option available.  The CSM84 is 5 x 7 feet, but seems like about the size of many other machines in that class.  Some Mydata and Universal machines are really LONG!  Well, you would not want to commission a CSM84 NOW!  They are just too old.  (I've been running my used machine for slightly over 10 years, now.)  I broke a few of the air cylinder extension rods that trip the feeders when I changed some timings.  I just made replacements on my lathe.  It seems that some Chinese outfits have EVERY part you might need to keep one of these machines running, but you have a bunch of issues getting parts from there.  I have gotten several electromechanical parts and sensors from PLC Supply, and hoses and such from eBay.  I most CERTAINLY do not have a service guy come out when something breaks.  I have to fix it myself.  The most recent issue was built-up commutator dust shorting out the rotation motor.  That took a while to diagnose.

The big machines have space to hold more feeders.  You will be surprised how many feeders you need on one board.  Now that chips are getting hard to find in tubes, you have to get them on tape, and they put them SIDEWAYS in the tapes.  So, instead of the SOICs all lined up the long way in  a tube, they are the wide way in the tape, requiring a wider feeder.  At least on my CSM, anything wider than 8mm tape takes up TWO feeder slots! 

Jon

[Reckless]

Just for my knowledge, does anyone know how the older Juki 760 machines compare to the Phillips Assembleon? 

The guy who was trying to sell me Universal Instrument GSM equipment admitted that Juki's are a really good product and couldn't say anything bad about them. 

[nisma]

Do you know the limits of the machine ? as example on the mentioned juki you cannot have more then 2000 placement and not more then 100 different components and the nominal speed is from memory 3600 cph, calculate 3100cph including nozzle change and pcb change.
In this case, this probably mean, that one pcb must be assembled on two different machines and you must split the assembly and assembly time between two
machines.
Depending on solder paste used, you could stencil pcb for 2 days, in your case 50 pcb. I don't know how long you want work, in 8 hours you maybe do 8 boards,
16 with two machines.
I suggest doing a dry run of 4 boards and check including timing everything what is the effective cph you archive including nozzle changes and pcb changes.
In case you need to do 25 pcb/day and archive 16-20 boards / day this could be a problem. In this case you need a third machine.
Further probably on that numbers, when doing 8h runs, your are busy 4h keeping assembly running, this all as guess.

 

[jmelson]

Yes, until you have RUN a P&P yourself, you really have no idea of what is involved.  Maybe some other machines work better than what I have, but I kind of doubt it.  0.1uF caps give me the WORST fits!  Resistors are all fine, 100 pF and 1000 pF never a problem, but 0.1 uF from 5 different vendors ALL have the same feeding problems.  Crazy! The cover tape glue is applied with some kind of roller, and the glue application is uneven.  So, every foot or so, it goes from practically zero adhesion to so much glue that it rips the top layer off the paper tape!  It is really HARD to adjust  a feeder to handle this variation.

I run a very small scale operation, so I have reels that are several years old.  (How many places do you use a 39.2K Ohm resistor?)  So, some of the tapes go bad over time.  On some of them the cover tape gets harder to pull, or so brittle it snaps, on others the glue fails completely, and all the parts spill on the floor.  (This is mostly ICs and inductors, never resistors.  Yes, the more expensive the part, the worse it gets.)

So, the machine works great, if only I could get tapes with consistent glue.

Just wanted to mention that you have to factor all this into your manufacturing time calculations.  I can't just let my P&P sit there and run, I have to be right on top of it to keep up with this feeder stuff.

Jon

[coppice]

Yes, until you have RUN a P&P yourself, you really have no idea of what is involved.

True. I suspect some people think its like buying a printer for their PC. 

[mikeselectricstuff]

Yes, until you have RUN a P&P yourself, you really have no idea of what is involved. 

Absolutely.
P&P is not one big problem, it's lots and lots of small and subtle ones, any one of which can bite you in the arse, often in unexpected ways.

[Reckless]

I'm sure pick n place machines have alot of issues and a long learning curve.  Lucky for me I have few parts, small boards, and mostly standard components.  I do have 3 thru hole components per board but worst case I hand solder them.

I do hope to get nicer pick and place machines eventually that don't give me any real headaches even if I have to spend $20k extra for them. 

[DerekG]

So, some of the tapes go bad over time.

Yes, I know what you are going through. Try & store the tapes in a cool dark place. The optimum humidity seems to vary with the glue used. Some glues "fall apart" in humid environments (it is like the moisture in the air breaks them down) & other glues either fall apart or set rock hard under low humidity conditions.

All I can advise is that if the glue falls apart in humid environments, place the component roll firstly in an anti-static bag (do not seal this bag), then place this in a second double thickness (200 micron) plastic bag with a packet of silica gel in it. We store the silica gel in the fridge which over about 10 days sucks out most of the moisture in it. It is important to immediately wrap the silica gel in a thick plastic bag when taking it out of the fridge to prevent it absorbing moisture from the air (remember it is cold). Once it is up to room temperature, remove it from the plastic bag & place it in the 200 micron bag above.

You can keep using the silica gel indefinitely using this method.