EEVblog Electronics Community Forum
Electronics => Manufacturing & Assembly => Topic started by: alexaraujo on August 31, 2021, 01:54:05 am
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Goodnight.
I have a company in Brazil that manufactures industrial equipment and this equipment uses 7 models of electrical boards. For ten years these plates have been assembled by contracted assemblers. My annual demand is 4000 - 6000 boards per year and I'm planning to mount this in-house.
I have been studying two models SMT660 or Kayo 1706 plus a 6-zone oven. For the assembly of this line I have a tight budget of US$20k.
I am more inclined to buy SMT660 due to the price but I am concerned about the difficulties John Plocher had with his SMT550 and also whether the kayo and XY models will be able to do a good job with some components like LQFP-144 with 0.5mm LQFP spacing 128 with 0.4mm. I would like you to share your experiences
tks Alex
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i just did the same 'study' for some company i worked 10 days :) and i run away
they had 20k euros envelope, with that amount at limit you can buy smt660, stencil printer (cheapest one, manual) and some cheap oven.
let's not forget compressed air, vacuum (the chinese don't specify if that's included in the machine or not, the description for 13keuros machine on aliexpress is ridiculous, my tv set has a better manual; i supposed it is but leaved the company before talking with the chinese company yingxing seller)
other money amounts will go into customs taxes, transportation, start-up materials, extra feeders etacaetera (i suppose you already count what feeders you need regarding your bom, does the smt660 fill your demand?)
the result will be lot of work from your part and the final result, a hobby-like proto
tbo, without 100keuros for start, you're dead
concurrence is fierce, the company i mentioned had some 'market' politically-addressed, so 100% safe, no concurrence, the bids are already win by them :) so you can afford a shitty product, but on the open market i don't know...
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Quite a number of guys here own a SMT660 (HW-T6-64F) or SMT550 (HW-T4-50F), I personally own a HW-T4-50F and I am absolutely loving it. @Mangozac owns a KAYO-1706-3DSG and @glenenglish owns 2 or 3 A4 (I lost count!) too. These machines are not that hard to use despite the little manual that comes with it. Both companies has similar but some small differences on their machines as their owners used to work for another P&P machine companies many many years ago. Both software are totally different but I believe both are usable despite some untranslated part.
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The 1706 is a good entry-level machine. Ours has had its little issues but we've now run about 20k boards on it and it runs mostly very smoothly. If you can I would recommend stretching the budget to the S600 though. It's the next generation of Kayo machines and is quite impressive.
The 0.5mm pitch LQFP-144 should be no problem on the Kayo machines. We've done smaller QFNs in 0.4mm pitch and again they were fine but you may have to do a bit of tweaking of the cameras to get them working nicely for the larger fine pitch parts. The most likely problem will be picking up reflections at the outer areas of the camera on a large part like that.
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I read the blog about your trip to china, it was very good information. I'm thinking about building my line since 2017 when I paid the assembler approximately US$25k. Would you like to buy direct HWGC P&P machines can you send me their contact details?
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Kayo's Brazil representative pass the price and I think it's a little high without shipping and no fees.
Here are the quotes I have from XY and Kayo.
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Do you think that LQFP 144 pin with 0.5mm I can't produce on a manual printer to start production and next year I'll buy an automatic one?
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I know taxes in Brazil is very high for importing electronics. But does the Kayo representative factored that in already in the quoted price? The feeders are very high priced although less with YX. If you shop around without trying very hard you can get 8mm pneumatic CL for $50 and 12/16mm for $70. 24mm can be had for $210. Vibrating feeder for $100. If try very hard, you will be surprise you could even get lower than those. But of course it's best if you buy with the machine to save you cost on the shipping as they could easily sit inside the machine and occupy no extra volume in the shipment. Does Kayo allow you to purchase directly without Brazil agent? Kayo China sales person themselves speak good English like Jenny and Jack. Also allocate the shipping price into your cost as generally they are not cheap.
Depending on your batch size, 0.5mm pitch LQFP solder paste application can be easily done manually if done properly.
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I received the price from HWGCC
below are the values.
The price of the oven was too low so I asked the manufacturer for more information.
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I changed the model of the remelting oven. HWGC's price quote was 1600mm, so I change to another model with 2100mm. Soon the price of the oven now is US$2,650
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I changed the model of the remelting oven. HWGC's price quote will be 1600mm I change to 2100mm. Soon the price of the oven was US$2,650
You need to see the full specs on the oven - that sounds way too cheap for me. I can't believe that Kayo can do the RF-630 for as low a price as they do!
Kayo's Brazil representative pass the price and I think it's a little high without shipping and no fees.
Yes, it does seem high but does it include all local taxes and duties? The price of a CL 8mm feeder should be around USD50.00 when buying in a large quantity like that.
The thing is that there is a big timezone difference between China and Brazil, so communication with Kayo will be difficult. If the local distributor is going to provide support it may be worth the price premium.
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The price of the Kayo representative is excluding tax and shipping costs. That's why I found it very expensive
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Today I emailed kayo if they could quote me directly. We Brazilians have the custom of working with very high profit margins even if it costs us to lose customers.
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The cheapest remelting furnace was from HWGC (USD1,150 with 1600mm long and six zones). Their second oven is USD 2,650.00 HW-R612E with six top and bottom zones and 2,100mm length of hot zones, both with temperature controllers without using PCs. Kayo oven cost ~USD5,150.00
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Really because of the time difference I will suffer to keep my future line running.
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I paid about USD12k FOB for the 1706, which makes the $18k you were quoted crazy if it doesn't include shipping or taxes!
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In brazil, the internal transport cost tends to be double the cost of a ship between Brazil and China.
My agent is already quoting the cost.
Believe it or not, I think I'll end up paying the cost of a second machine by adding up the cost of internal freight, fees and storage at the port for clearance that I'll have to pay to have the machine in my company.
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if it were 12k I would have already closed the purchase with kayo. I find more youtube videos on how to configure XY's SMT550 models than the Kayo and HWGC models this worries me a little because the manuals sent to me have little setup information
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In brazil, the internal transport cost tends to be double the cost of a ship between Brazil and China.
My agent is already quoting the cost.
Believe it or not, I think I'll end up paying the cost of a second machine by adding up the cost of internal freight, fees and storage at the port for clearance that I'll have to pay to have the machine in my company.
I think you can try to get a freight forwarder company or agent in China that is well versed with Brazil and has a well cooperated local company in Brazil. This usually ended up with a cheaper cost as most of the time they already have frequent shipments to your country. This is what I did with 2 machine purchase of mine from China to Malaysia. I know it's a lot nearer than to Brazil but it save a lot of money and hassle as I only pay once. There's no tax on manufacturing machine in Malaysia fortunately as it generate income for the country. But the location of the P&P company might play a role here as you might need to ship it to a port not near to them. For example, for HWGC they are based in Beijing but I used a Guangzhou port down at the south. So I land freight the machine from the north to the south but this is usually very cheap. Do some homework and you'll be surprise what you will find.
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In brazil, the internal transport cost tends to be double the cost of a ship between Brazil and China.
My agent is already quoting the cost.
Believe it or not, I think I'll end up paying the cost of a second machine by adding up the cost of internal freight, fees and storage at the port for clearance that I'll have to pay to have the machine in my company.
I think you can try to get a freight forwarder company or agent in China that is well versed with Brazil and has a well cooperated local company in Brazil. This usually ended up with a cheaper cost as most of the time they already have frequent shipments to your country. This is what I did with 2 machine purchase of mine from China to Malaysia. I know it's a lot nearer than to Brazil but it save a lot of money and hassle as I only pay once. There's no tax on manufacturing machine in Malaysia fortunately as it generate income for the country. But the location of the P&P company might play a role here as you might need to ship it to a port not near to them. For example, for HWGC they are based in Beijing but I used a Guangzhou port down at the south. So I land freight the machine from the north to the south but this is usually very cheap. Do some homework and you'll be surprise what you will find.
I'll find out more about this, thank you very much for the tip.
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I changed the model of the remelting oven. HWGC's price quote will be 1600mm I change to 2100mm. Soon the price of the oven was US$2,650
You need to see the full specs on the oven - that sounds way too cheap for me. I can't believe that Kayo can do the RF-630 for as low a price as they do!
Kayo's Brazil representative pass the price and I think it's a little high without shipping and no fees.
Yes, it does seem high but does it include all local taxes and duties? The price of a CL 8mm feeder should be around USD50.00 when buying in a large quantity like that.
The thing is that there is a big timezone difference between China and Brazil, so communication with Kayo will be difficult. If the local distributor is going to provide support it may be worth the price premium.
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What do you think about me removing the costs of feeders and nozzles and quoting them out? You have already bought it without being from the machine manufacturer and the prices presented here on these parts can generate good savings, but I have to see the cost of freight.
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Haven't read through the entire thread, pushed for time right now, but, after lots of initial problems with my SMT550 its placed around 15,000 parts now fairly trouble free. Its dropped about 200 parts and misplaced about 60. Its all in the set up and yes, the documentation is worse than terrible. It does still have issues with LQFP-176 parts that I cannot for the life of me fix but with my low volume production, it places the parts close enough that I can manually nudge them into position and reflow the board without solder bridges and cold joints. At your volume though, it would not be ideal.
My biggest issue currently is that 12mm and 16mm feeders struggle with keeping the pins on the drive wheel in the holes in the tape and it stops advancing the tape after a random number of parts. That said, if I needed a bigger machine, I would consider the SMT660 now that I am more familiar with the software and the hardware nuances.
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Haven't read through the entire thread, pushed for time right now, but, after lots of initial problems with my SMT550 its placed around 15,000 parts now fairly trouble free. Its dropped about 200 parts and misplaced about 60. Its all in the set up and yes, the documentation is worse than terrible. It does still have issues with LQFP-176 parts that I cannot for the life of me fix but with my low volume production, it places the parts close enough that I can manually nudge them into position and reflow the board without solder bridges and cold joints. At your volume though, it would not be ideal.
My biggest issue currently is that 12mm and 16mm feeders struggle with keeping the pins on the drive wheel in the holes in the tape and it stops advancing the tape after a random number of parts. That said, if I needed a bigger machine, I would consider the SMT660 now that I am more familiar with the software and the hardware nuances.
Thanks for sharing your experience I was thinking about saving USD 3,000.00 and getting the SMT550 model. Apparently I'm actually going from smt660.
I would like to buy Kayo but the factory informed me that I can only buy it through the representative in Brazil. But with your testimonials, I'm coming to the conseço and as soon as I have to close this purchase
My main boards go LCP1768 of LQFP-100 picth 0.5mm and I use an SSD1963 LQFP-128 graphics controller with pitch 0.4mm. My biggest fear is not mounting these boards because of the PNP limitation.
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Yesterday at dawn I talked to a HWGC seller
I am in doubt whether the chosen oven would be ideal.
My biggest board has 180mmx75mm with 276 SMD inserts, so I plan to work with leed free soldering.
The oven indicated by HWGG is from the link below. Do you think I will have problems?
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1RljZQCfhDVDO2XYFJZkCfYB6J9Pme8J1/view?usp=sharing
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Yesterday at dawn I talked to a HWGC seller
I am in doubt whether the chosen oven would be ideal.
My biggest board has 180mmx75mm with 276 SMD inserts, so I plan to work with leed free soldering.
The oven indicated by HWGG is from the link below. Do you think I will have problems?
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1RljZQCfhDVDO2XYFJZkCfYB6J9Pme8J1/view?usp=sharing
It looks very similar to the FR-630 so should be fine for lead free. As I said earlier though I just don't know how they can do it for the price!
What do you think about me removing the costs of feeders and nozzles and quoting them out? You have already bought it without being from the machine manufacturer and the prices presented here on these parts can generate good savings, but I have to see the cost of freight.
By the time you pay for a separate freight consignment it's probably not worthwhile. I would tell the distributor that you are interested but the feeder price is far too high. Ask if they will improve their price.
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Haven't read through the entire thread, pushed for time right now, but, after lots of initial problems with my SMT550 its placed around 15,000 parts now fairly trouble free. Its dropped about 200 parts and misplaced about 60. Its all in the set up and yes, the documentation is worse than terrible. It does still have issues with LQFP-176 parts that I cannot for the life of me fix but with my low volume production, it places the parts close enough that I can manually nudge them into position and reflow the board without solder bridges and cold joints. At your volume though, it would not be ideal.
My biggest issue currently is that 12mm and 16mm feeders struggle with keeping the pins on the drive wheel in the holes in the tape and it stops advancing the tape after a random number of parts. That said, if I needed a bigger machine, I would consider the SMT660 now that I am more familiar with the software and the hardware nuances.
Check your air supply. It seems to be struggling to provide enough air consistently to push the larger feeders. You can experiment this by spreading out the sequence of picking from the larger feeder for the entire process. Also how tall is the components for the 12mm/16mm? The pocket might be too tall for the feeder could also be a cause but I believe is the former. I don't face this issue though.
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Air supply is fine at 95psi into the machine and calculated 6.9cfm available, it is definitely a mechanical issue. The tape just pushes up and the pins on the drive wheel pop out of the holes in the tape and spin without moving the tape forward. It would seem that either longer pins or some downward pressure on the tape would fix this.
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Air supply is fine at 95psi into the machine and calculated 6.9cfm available, it is definitely a mechanical issue. The tape just pushes up and the pins on the drive wheel pop out of the holes in the tape and spin without moving the tape forward. It would seem that either longer pins or some downward pressure on the tape would fix this.
Are they Yamaha CL style feeders? There is an adjustment on the side to set the height that the part that covers the top of the tape sits at once locked into the machine. We found that we had to adjust this on all of our larger feeders. If you set it too tightly the tape has too much friction. Too loose and the sprocket will skip.
Edit: Sorry guys I realised that this adjustment only exists on the 24mm feeders.
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Yesterday I asked HGWC for a discount to close at USD 16,900 the feeders, PNP and reflow oven. I am waiting the answer.
In Brazil there is a 14% exemption of one of the tax rates until 12/31/2021 for PnP machines, that is, even with exemption I must pay something around 20% of taxes.
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Air supply is fine at 95psi into the machine and calculated 6.9cfm available, it is definitely a mechanical issue. The tape just pushes up and the pins on the drive wheel pop out of the holes in the tape and spin without moving the tape forward. It would seem that either longer pins or some downward pressure on the tape would fix this.
Are they Yamaha CL style feeders? There is an adjustment on the side to set the height that the part that covers the top of the tape sits at once locked into the machine. We found that we had to adjust this on all of our larger feeders. If you set it too tightly the tape has too much friction. Too loose and the sprocket will skip.
Do you have a video of this procedure? I was wondering how to adjust components high by going through a feeder.
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Do you have a video of this procedure? I was wondering how to adjust components high by going through a feeder.
It doesn't set the component height. It's to account for the tape thickness.
I've attached a photo showing the adjustment screw and the spot that gets adjusted. Edit: note that this is a 24mm feeder only.
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Do you have a video of this procedure? I was wondering how to adjust components high by going through a feeder.
It doesn't set the component height. It's to account for the tape thickness.
I've attached a photo showing the adjustment screw and the spot that gets adjusted.
Thank you for sharing but I believe this part only exist on 24 mm and larger feeder. For the 12 mm and 16 mm, it is the cover I believe that is a lot harder to take out.
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Thank you for sharing but I believe this part only exist on 24 mm and larger feeder. For the 12 mm and 16 mm, it is the cover I believe that is a lot harder to take out.
Yes you're right. I edited my first post to add that comment but didn't also state it in my post with the photo. I'll edit that post too.
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Do you have a video of this procedure? I was wondering how to adjust components high by going through a feeder.
It doesn't set the component height. It's to account for the tape thickness.
I've attached a photo showing the adjustment screw and the spot that gets adjusted. Edit: note that this is a 24mm feeder only.
Good night, Thanks for sharing.
Today complete trading with HWGC, we closed the total amount at USD 17,700.00 all. They will have to change the reflow oven to 220v three-phase because in my company it's all 220v
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My import agent is finalizing the documentation and if everything works out within 50 days, my Pnp will be inside my company.
Now I have to make the structure of the compressor. At the company I have a 250 liter and 175 PSI. Today it feeds two machining centers, pneumatic screwdrivers. Will it be enough?
From the comments in other threads I will have to install a filter and a dryer before the PnP input, right?
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Air to a pick & place should always be clean and dry. The compressors supplying the air should ideally be running at 30-50% capacity max to give them a good life and you a good supply. If you have other appliances using that same supply I would think you at least need an extra tank to buffer the air supply, once you have one of those keep an aye on the compressor, if its running non-stop you're working it too hard. I would also fit your air receiver tanks with an auto-drain if they don't have one, its so much less hassle than doing it by hand, I got a really cheap one off eBay and its been doing a very convincing job for the last 7 years.
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In mine boards I have 6mm high electrolytic capacitors, when placing the next component after the electrolytic, there is no risk of the head hitting it and removing it from its place? Is there a configuration for this?
Once all the configuration setup of the smt660 machine for a certain board is done and we produce a batch of it, in the future it will be enough to import the last production file and run the machine?
How to work with d-pak components in smt660 it has in the analysis library of this component?
Is it possible to integrate to my stock system through cvs, xml or something like that with SMT660 or Kayo?
Has anyone used label feeders on kayo or smt660?
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In mine boards I have 6mm high electrolytic capacitors, when placing the next component after the electrolytic, there is no risk of the head hitting it and removing it from its place? Is there a configuration for this?
Yes, that is a risk. You will need to tweak the placement order to ensure that collisions don't happen. These software on these low-to-medium end machines is not aware of component height for working out placement order.
Once all the configuration setup of the smt660 machine for a certain board is done and we produce a batch of it, in the future it will be enough to import the last production file and run the machine?
Theoretically yes, but in practice you always end up having to tweak something. Maybe a part previously on a reel is now in a tube.
How to work with d-pak components in smt660 it has in the analysis library of this component?
Should be no problem, there will be vision settings to tweak for it but it's really no more complex than other parts.
Is it possible to integrate to my stock system through cvs, xml or something like that with SMT660 or Kayo?
Anything is possible if you want to program it but the software doesn't do it out-of-the-box. Kayo now use an accessdb structure for their library and project files.
Has anyone used label feeders on kayo or smt660?
No but so long as they don't require a special nozzle I don't see why it wouldn't work.
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In mine boards I have 6mm high electrolytic capacitors, when placing the next component after the electrolytic, there is no risk of the head hitting it and removing it from its place? Is there a configuration for this?
Yes, that is a risk. You will need to tweak the placement order to ensure that collisions don't happen. These software on these low-to-medium end machines is not aware of component height for working out placement order.
Once all the configuration setup of the smt660 machine for a certain board is done and we produce a batch of it, in the future it will be enough to import the last production file and run the machine?
Theoretically yes, but in practice you always end up having to tweak something. Maybe a part previously on a reel is now in a tube.
How to work with d-pak components in smt660 it has in the analysis library of this component?
Should be no problem, there will be vision settings to tweak for it but it's really no more complex than other parts.
Is it possible to integrate to my stock system through cvs, xml or something like that with SMT660 or Kayo?
Anything is possible if you want to program it but the software doesn't do it out-of-the-box. Kayo now use an accessdb structure for their library and project files.
Has anyone used label feeders on kayo or smt660?
No but so long as they don't require a special nozzle I don't see why it wouldn't work.
thanks very much. With your information I'm getting deeper into the world of pnp
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Can anyone tell me what the level of loss of components that fall off the board or are normally discarded in a PNP after verification by the cameras?
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A fair amount of missing components
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The picture is poor, and how many drops do you have per 100 or 1000 components?
My opinion drops in the lower/mid quality built machines are usually the result of poor software.
Of course some manufacturers will try to tell the user they should configure it a different way but that argument just covers a poor software integration.
Optical component detection is not difficult but it needs experience and if manufacturers do not have the manpower to figure it out themselves then they will need help from customers.
I'd suggest contacting the manufacturer about that issue, if they're helpful good if not put your statement into the forum so other people know where they are.
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A fair amount of missing components
Just a video that John did during his early days of owning the machine specifically on trying to understand how to use it. I don't think a generalization like that is justified. Be patient and wait, your machine will arrive, and you will know by then how it will work out.
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A fair amount of missing components
Just a video that John did during his early days of owning the machine specifically on trying to understand how to use it. I don't think a generalization like that is justified. Be patient and wait, your machine will arrive, and you will know by then how it will work out.
thanks, i'm really looking forward to it. I believe that within 45 it will be in Brazil
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Pnp is already on its way to Brazil
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Today I received an email from Kayo comprehension of HWGC's offer.
US$18200, includes
1x KAYO-1706-3DSG
25X 8MM pneumatic feeder
7x 8MM electric feeder
4x 12mm pneumatic feeder
4x 16mm pneumatic feeder
2x 24mm pneumatic feeder
1x 44mm pneumatic feeder
1x 3-tube vibration feeder
1x KAYO-RF630
1x Kit spare parts