Soldering station - Hakko, JBC, or Pace??

[nctnico]

With due all respect, but I can roughly tell soldering temperature by how fast flux burns. At 310°C it is vastly different than at 370°C where it burns and oxidizes almost immediately. But even 370-380°C shouldn't damage board immediately, unless you heat it too long and apply mechanical force, i.e. not doing it right.

Yep. 400 degrees or more is no good. It shows people use tips which are too small or tips that needed to be replaced a long time ago. I usually use 330 degrees C which also gives nice joints when using lead free solder.

JBC is overpriced crap IMHO; the tips burn up way too quick becoming useless because they won't wet (pick up solder evenly across the tip) at all. Same goes for Weller. I have been using Ersa for decades and never needed to replace a tip because it wouldn't wet any more.

I can't comment on Hakko & Pace as I have no extensive experience with these brands.

[thm_w]

Regardless, using the wrong tips and ruining $2K worth of product is entirely on user error. How awful a technician must one be to not realize the tip is running way hotter than expected? (I notice tip temperature readily.) And then to not notice it yet continue working in a way that causes catastrophic damage? Not Pace’s fault if you hire staff with IQs lower than their ages.

I agree completely but, are there any other name brand stations where you can plug the wrong tip in and the temperature will be incorrect?

Shock kindly pointed out the WJS 100 to me. If you had two of these beside on the bench, and a handful of tips in the middle, I just assume its compatible.
OK the end of the tip is yellow instead of blue, if you have the tips sitting upright you wont see that.

Of course, they are a smaller company so its a lot more expensive to make changes, which puts them at a disadvantage.

[Arhigos]

Ok. I'm working in production and i used all of them and here is my experience:

Hakko has great quality. Well built and well designed. Ergonomics is ok. Not best not terrible. Performance is ok for most cases. Tips life is ok and also tips is not very expensive. I would say this is great choice for production line.

Pace recently introduced the new ADS2000. They make tips with same design as previous intelliheat generation but with different specs. That means if you try to use older tips in a new station you will get crazy high temperature. And if you put new tips in older station you will get very low temperature. We damaged couple very expensive PCB due to that (over $2000 was scrapped). Also three button menu is absolutely terrible and not user-friendly. You have to download user manual and read it every time you need to change something in settings. Sleeping stand is also stupid and requires proprietary cable. (for example hakko uses 3.5mm jack). I do not recommend pace for any type of production. Only for home or hobby use. I think pace could win gold medal in /r/assholedesign/ subreddit

If you think Hakko’s interface is better than in the ADS200, then I can only conclude you’re insane!

Regardless, using the wrong tips and ruining $2K worth of product is entirely on user error. How awful a technician must one be to not realize the tip is running way hotter than expected? (I notice tip temperature readily.) And then to not notice it yet continue working in a way that causes catastrophic damage? Not Pace’s fault if you hire staff with IQs lower than their ages.

The instant standby connector is a standard DIN socket. (Amphenol C091B series if you want to get the exact parts, but any bayonet or non-latching DIN plug works.) Nothing proprietary about it. It’s a simple switch contact, no proprietary communication.

Pace is the exact opposite of a hobbyist product. They’re used widely in production and repair, especially in military and aerospace. So if you can’t get good results with it, that’s on you.

Their stations also let you program password-protected maximum temperatures.

You probably never worked at high volume manufacturing in US if you think that all employees should feel temperature on the tip of soldering iron lol.

For the sleeping connector - I'm talking about just grabbing one from surplus bin when needed. Of course you can reverse engineer the sleeping stand and order connector from mouser. But that's way more time consuming than using standard 3.5mm connector

[Arhigos]

With due all respect, but I can roughly tell soldering temperature by how fast flux burns. At 310°C it is vastly different than at 370°C where it burns and oxidizes almost immediately. But even 370-380°C shouldn't damage board immediately, unless you heat it too long and apply mechanical force, i.e. not doing it right.

And also, what do you change all the time on the menu? In production, you sometimes LOCK the station, so operator cannot change even temperature....

And then you talk about how you lock JBC so operator cannot change anything ??

As they say in that meme "I am confusion, Ameriga egsplain"

I saw a lot of guys trying to set temperature as high as possible. In most cases 850 F. Which is 450c.

Even that temperature will not damage anything, but will make tip life shorter and may cause overheat on some gentle components.

[knotlogic]

I saw a lot of guys trying to set temperature as high as possible. In most cases 850 F. Which is 450c.

Even that temperature will not damage anything, but will make tip life shorter and may cause overheat on some gentle components.

450c??  I think even the least experienced tech at a past workplace would have had strong words if they caught someone setting the temp that high.

[Arhigos]

I saw a lot of guys trying to set temperature as high as possible. In most cases 850 F. Which is 450c.

Even that temperature will not damage anything, but will make tip life shorter and may cause overheat on some gentle components.

450c??  I think even the least experienced tech at a past workplace would have had strong words if they caught someone setting the temp that high.

Yes a lot of people simply trying to set temp as high as station allows them. Including people with IPC certification renewable every two years

[Hydrawerk]

I work at a small company. There are two old JBC AM-2A rework stations, about ten PACE ST50, about four PACE ADS200, about six BAKON BK2000 and even about two ERSA ANALOG 60, that is shit and should be avoided. ERSA is hardly used. I do not even use it.

BAKON BK2000 is probably induction and is OK for basic THT soldering. But the user interface is crap. It is locked by a password. To enable temperature setting, you must press all the three buttons and power on the station. Then it is unlocked.   

There is no Hakko. I have seen an old 50W Weller, probably WS51, but now it is gone and no longer used.
I use the JBC AM-2A mostly. Sometimes I use the PACE ST50.
I have a JBC hot tweezer AT420. It delivers 160W. Better than a hot tweezer made by PACE.

[Hydrawerk]

Go for JBC if you want the best user comfort and best range of tips and handles. But it will cost you a lot of money. I love the fast cartridge change.


You might prefer PACE, if you want a simple but powerful soldering station. Only some PACE soldering cartridges are cheaper than JBC. The PACE cartridges are fixed in the handle and cannot be turned around. I am not happy with that. The cartridges have a plastic end with contacts. They can theoretically be broken. For menu setting you need an user manual. PACE hot tweezer is bloody expensive.

[Hydrawerk]

I like the internal construction of ADS200. It looks like it is easy to repair if ever needed. There is a transformer with a safety partition and one voltage on the secondary side, maybe 28V? Keys on the pcb can be replaced when broken.
https://youtu.be/WXL-pWD44pc?t=622

[Hydrawerk]

I do not like the internal construction of this JBC much. That is what I call overengineering. There is a transformer with two voltages on the secondary side. Probably 12V and 24V. There are no replaceable button keys and the flat cables can hardly be bought when broken. But this soldering station will probably last at least 10 years. It might be OK for you. The user comfort is better than JBC.
I am not sure, is the JBC station made of plastic or aluminium??
https://youtu.be/PjEYI5WsLBI?t=336

[tooki]

...and even about two ERSA ANALOG 60, that is shit and should be avoided. ERSA is hardly used. I do not even use it.

That's an ancient model, nobody cares about that. The relevant models today (since around 2008, I think) have been the i-CON line, which performs quite well IMHO.

I have a JBC hot tweezer AT420. It delivers 160W. Better than a hot tweezer made by PACE.

Pace makes several, completely different tweezer models. You need to specify which one you mean, and maybe say why.

You might prefer PACE, if you want a simple but powerful soldering station. Only some PACE soldering cartridges are cheaper than JBC.

I think it's fair to say that the vast majority of Pace tips are cheaper.

The PACE cartridges are fixed in the handle and cannot be turned around. I am not happy with that. The cartridges have a plastic end with contacts. They can theoretically be broken.

Are you saying that as a bad thing, or as a good thing (that you could break off the plastic to let the tip rotate freely)?

[Bud]

JBC handpiece is delicate, sometimes i am afraid to breathe on it, it can just snap in half if you accidentally hit it or drop the stand. With Pace I can throw it at an elefant and kill the poor creature, then go back to soldering with it.

[Hydrawerk]

Bud
PACE TD-100 can be broken, I have seen it once. It is made of plastic. https://paceworldwide.com/td-100-tip-heater-cartridge-soldering-iron
TD-100A and TD-200 are made of aluminium, they can hardly break.
https://paceworldwide.com/td-200-soldering-iron
JBC T245-A is made of plastic, but it is not that bad. I use it for three years and no problems. It was not new when I started using it.
https://www.jbctools.com/t245-a-general-purpose-handle-product-45.html

[Hydrawerk]

The PACE cartridges are fixed in the handle and cannot be turned around. I am not happy with that. The cartridges have a plastic end with contacts. They can theoretically be broken.

Are you saying that as a bad thing, or as a good thing (that you could break off the plastic to let the tip rotate freely)?

As a bad thing. The blue end with gold contacts can theoretically break. There is no way to let the tip rotate freely. Contacts do not allow this!

[Hydrawerk]

I have a JBC hot tweezer AT420. It delivers 160W. Better than a hot tweezer made by PACE.

Pace makes several, completely different tweezer models. You need to specify which one you mean, and maybe say why.

PACE MT-200 delivers only 120W and it is expensive.
https://paceworldwide.com/mt-200-minitweez-thermal-tweezer#compatibletips
But it might be more precise than my JBC AT420A.

https://www.tequipment.net/Pace/MT-200-6010-0169-P1/Soldering-Tweezers/
https://www.tequipment.net/JBC/AT420-A/Soldering-Tweezers/

[Shock]

The JBC tweezers though need a more expensive station or one specifically for the tweezers. The Pace you can use the existing ADS200 station or any future Accudrive station. I've mentioned this all before when looking at the price. The Pace tweezers are also aluminum which makes them more expensive to manufacture.

The other thing which is a bit of a fallacy is required power past around 100W. If it was anything significant you would be using additional heating either hot air or a pcb preheater. If I was doing some smd rework that needed that much power I wouldn't even risk it without using some preheating, it's like turning on desoldering easy mode.

[loguej]

Hello your post caught my eye especially the fact you mentioned the hakko   fm2030 I have never seen anyone talk about using this handpiece almost like it doesn't exist I am thinking of getting a soldering statione upgrade to the FM203 that I have and that handle and tip combination may work, or jumping to the same JBC unit you are speaking of So my question is If you compare similar high thermal mass tip say the T-22 C6 that hakko offers to a large 245  bevel 6mm size tip of the same thermal mass which one is better in your opinion esp on  4+ multilayer boards  that have thick ground planes commenly found  in high power Silver Box SMPS supplys any info you can give me what great be greatly appreciated as I've spent a lot of time trying to decide which one but have never been able to come up with a proper decision and you cant just try before you buy

And again kudos to you for actually mentioning using a 2030 style handpiece there's no reviews for those at all that I have found on the internet other than the stupid eye on hakko videos in which they do not show the use of the units at all just talk of what they do

[thm_w]

Hello your post caught my eye especially the fact you mentioned the hakko   fm2030 I have never seen anyone talk about using this handpiece almost like it doesn't exist I am thinking of getting a soldering statione upgrade to the FM203 that I have and that handle and tip combination may work, or jumping to the same JBC unit you are speaking of So my question is If you compare similar high thermal mass tip say the T-22 C6 that hakko offers to a large 245  bevel 6mm size tip of the same thermal mass which one is better in your opinion esp on  4+ multilayer boards  that have thick ground planes commenly found  in high power Silver Box SMPS supplys any info you can give me what great be greatly appreciated as I've spent a lot of time trying to decide which one but have never been able to come up with a proper decision and you cant just try before you buy

And again kudos to you for actually mentioning using a 2030 style handpiece there's no reviews for those at all that I have found on the internet other than the stupid eye on hakko videos in which they do not show the use of the units at all just talk of what they do

If you already have the FM203, its ~$140 for a 2030 handle, base, and a tip.

Hakko has a few good products, but I agree their videos are useless at actually demonstrating anything relevant. Marketing for Hakko/Metcal is a joke.

[vstrulev]

Good day everyone. My two cents here. I have few soldering stations including two Hakko stations, one of which mentioned in this thread. No one of them satisfied my needs and I was moving up and up until I pulled the plug and got a good one. I end up buying the Weller WX2020, which is two channel station, with two soldering irons: 120W and 200W and later I've bought the Weller tweezers as well. If I start from very beginning, I would just buy that Weller with all the above mentioned irons/tweezers and forget the rest (an old saying: buy once, cry once). I'm totally satisfied and able to do anything with it. Sometimes I solder heavy gauge wires (4GA) and shank terminals to the 2.4mm pcb with large copper polygons. The Weller is able to handle it all. I understand this is an expensive tool, but if you do work/rework/assemby, good tool is a must. So final thought: all my soldering stations together cost about the same if not more than that Weller and instead of having the table filled with all different station, have just one capable of anything. 

[Hydrawerk]

Weller WX2020 is probably good but I have never seen it personally. It is not discussed much on this forum. Are you happy with the RT tips range? https://weller-tools.com/nocompromise/media/pdf/en/RT_Active_Tip_Brochure_GB_en.pdf
Is there a Weller mini spoon tip available? Like these JBC tips? https://www.jbctools.com/cartridges-category-4-design-Spoon-menu-4.html
It is called miniwave by PACE.
https://paceworldwide.com/angled-miniwave-tip_1130-0035-P1

[vstrulev]

Weller WX2020 is probably good but I have never seen it personally. It is not discussed much on this forum. Are you happy with the RT tips range? https://weller-tools.com/nocompromise/media/pdf/en/RT_Active_Tip_Brochure_GB_en.pdf
Is there a Weller mini spoon tip available? Like these JBC tips? https://www.jbctools.com/cartridges-category-4-design-Spoon-menu-4.html
It is called miniwave by PACE.
https://paceworldwide.com/angled-miniwave-tip_1130-0035-P1

I own a PnP; a couple of ovens; and hot base/air tool and most of my soldering done on those tools. The Weller 200W is used for large TH components, such as shank terminals and heavy gauge wires. Tweezers I use it for replacing and fixing SMD parts and so far I was able to handle everything I needed. The 120W used for everything else. The Weller reaches the temps super fast, which is important for me. The other nice feature: I have three tools: 200W/120W/and tweezers and I swap them occasionally. All the settings are kept in those irons itself. Even if you change the Weller station and plug your iron in it, it has your profile without you setting this up. Love the Weller. This is very subjective thing as both stations are great. This is why I mention my two cents only ;-)

[Hydrawerk]

Well, PACE does not offer any high power soldering station. JBC has the HDE with 250W peak (??) power.
https://www.jbctools.com/hde-heavy-duty-product-933.html
No such station from PACE there. :-(((

[jonpaul]

bonjour à tous, just joining this intéressant thread now.
First used soldering irons in 1950s, was Ungar.

As an Engineer and consultant, 1970s..1990s,   TH  prototypes, power supplies, analog, 

1/Préfère  vintage Hakko analog   926, 936,  (photo 1) workhorses, no failures in decades, good temp régulation and safety. Used only genuine Hakko tips
Good cable, great tips, comfortable handle design.
I had not used the newer digital Hakko yellow..blue.

2/ Wellers, were OK, but nothing special, 
No opinion on Pace or   desolder stations.

3/ 1990..1993 I consulted for Raychem/Metcal, to design the 500 kHz resonant current drive SP-200 station for their SmartHeat (tm) system tips.
photo 2

The Metcal patent uses  induction heating in the tip material rather than a separate heater and thermostat or thermocouple.
Very long lasting tips and handles, my 1993 versions are  still in service!

The Metcal tip  temperature is tightly regulated,  fixed by a controlled curie point of tip material.
Design goal similar performance as the original 13.5 MHz  versions, without the issues of the coax cable, connector and less chance of RF interference.
We had to achieve fast warmup, 20 second max from cold to 90% temp,
Temp at tip was tested for the temp/time curve with  a special  thermocouple implanted inside the solder tip
 

4/ Metcal has the Best control of temperature even for massive ground plane or thick Power supply leads and wires. Great for power and SMD rework
My design for  Metcal SP-200 became a classic, 100s k units sold,  licensed to  OK industry and Tech Tool. 
 
photo 3


5/The older 13.5 MHz  versions   coax connectors  can be mismated.  I think the   performance is similar to the 500 kHz., which  used a  4 pin DIN connector.

 
I am now happily retired, I still have my SP-200 prototypes   and   Metcal stations and tips. The alternative is Hakko 936.
Just the ramblings of an old retired EE...
happy soldering...

Bon courage


Jon

[thm_w]

5/ Beware of the older 13.5 MHz ISO versions with coax connector. The connection is flaky. no idea their performance.  My  500 kHz design used a  4 pin DIN connector.

The coax works OK, but its not self evident how the connection works and some may have been abused.
13MHz performance is a bit better than 500kHz models.

[loki42]

I haven't ever tried the 500 kHz options but my Metcal has never had a problem with connections over many 1000 of joints and use by 5 different employees.  I also got it very second hand... if the 500 kHz versions are better I'd he interested to see,  I always assumed they were just the budget end.