The Reality of a Pick and Place Lifestyle

[rx8pilot]

For 0402/0201 placement.....which Yamaha feeders are the best?

I wonder if it is possible to make an adapter or modification for my Quad. The precision Quad feeders are hard to find and very expensive.

[rx8pilot]

We have discussed this a lot on the AmpHour and also many places scattered across the forum.
The general consensus is that there is a quite narrow windows of usefulness for a personal PnP machine.

Mike's Electric Stuff is a classic example. He does short-ish runs of boards in short lead times that very often use thousands of LED's and other parts repeated on the board, so he derived great benefit from having his own PnP for those uses. Most people will not fit into that category though.

Yep - here and there. I am curious how many people have small systems, how many people think they need a small system, why they think they need a small system, what kind of learning curves and issues do people face in reality, etc, etc.

I think my operation (or hopeful operation) is a good fit for having a system in-house. I will freely admit that I was very, very naive about what it actually would take to pull it off. Even after many hours of reading and a decade of owning/operating a CNC machine shop - nothing really prepared me for the avalanche of details. At this moment, I don't regret it - but that has not always been the case. There have been many times that I was kicking myself. At the same time, I could never figure out how to finish my work any other way.

If I did not get the P&P, I think I would have needed to totally re-think my small biz. When I first began to look for machines - I started at the bottom. I had little to no money so the cheap Chinese no-vision machines were on my radar. I could easily see the limitations right away but at the time - my boards were almost all 0805 passives, SOIC-8's, and other easy parts. I was thinking that for $5k I could get the machine, printer, and cheap oven and it would at least be a step up from 100% manual assembly. At this time, I had pretty much maxed out my manual assembly setup as much as possible without buying some new hardware. I forgot the model number, but I was only a few days away from ordering one of the ultra-low-cost machines from China.

That was when I had a conversation here on the EEVBlog about used machines including the Quad IV-C. I had scoured the internet for information about them and generally informed myself about the system. 1990's design, multiple ownerships, big, heavy, reliable, were all take-aways from the initial look. The scary part was that they were sn MS-DOS machine made with parts and software that was long ago obsolete and discontinued. Then I learned that a company in PA had purchased the Quad business and refurbished them with Windows 7 and all new software around 2009/10 or so. I called them and got a quote - the machine and a modest batch of feeders was MSRP $50k. Maybe haggling could get me to $40k-ish.

Not possible. I did not have the $$. Back to the Chinese hobby machine.....until.......eBay. A listing popped up with very little details. Quad IV-C with Feeders BUY IT NOW $5,000 about 60 miles from my house. I was in bed about to fall asleep and scanning eBay. I saw this and asked my wife what she thinks...she said go for it. So I clicked the button with zero understanding of what I was committing myself to. I used two credit cards to cover it, rented a trailer and went to pick it up. It was extremely dirty with junk piled all over. The PC had broken off it's rack rails. But I noticed real fast that this was one with the Windows 7 upgrade. There were about 50 feeders. All the parts were there.

Another machine that was the MS-DOS version was sitting next to it. The guy that purchased that one was asking if he could also buy the one that I just purchased. I answered no and loaded it on the trailer and took it home. There is a thread (I will try to get the link) of the disaster I just purchased, but for this conversation, it is important to know that it took about 6 months and another few $k to get the first part placed.

It was, perhaps, the most difficult possible entry into pick and place. I am trying to forget that part of the experience.

Skip to present day - I am VERY happy I never had to mess with the limited use desktop hobby machines but with that said - the used Quad has not been a picnic in any way. It fights me at every opportunity even if I win every time. I have been able to go from 0805 to 0603 to 0402 and I already have my sights set on 0201 (which the machine technically has the capability of doing if everything is completely perfect). Total cash in the machine is about the same as a Neoden 4, total time invested.....too much time.

If the N4 was available when I got my machine - It would have been high on the list of consideration.

Type5 is called AGS or AF5  from Multicore usually sold in syringes AFAIK because the syringe needles require the smallest particle size to pass.
But they should be sold in jars as well, can not find the leaded type 1,2,3 seems like the entire industry went Rohs.

Yep - the market for leaded solder is probably shrinking. That may be especially true for a type 5 ball that is usually on the finer and fancier PCB's. Still looking.

[jonnod]

Referring to rx8pilot’s original post - what a great post and topic.   In fact it has prompted me to make my first ever post.  I don’t post things because of time pressure – why – because I too have set up my own small in-house smt line so don’t have any time!  But I can feel rx8pilots pain and I share it! 
Hey, looking over my post, I see it is very long – but it is a difficult subject and I hope it helps others who may be considering setting up their own SMT line?

I have had a very similar experience to rx8pilot.  I decided to install my own smt line after terrible experiences with local board loaders. Also I didn’t want to get my boards done in China due to risks of IP loss and part substitution.   20 months on and I still can’t say if it was a good idea or not. 

I also totally underestimated the huge learning curve, yeah, by a factor of 1,000 I think!
I purchased brand new items.  Stencil printer, SmallSMT P&P VP2800HP, Reflow Oven Puhui T-937.   Each item represents a continual source of frustration and difficulty, but of course the P&P is the most complex item and therefore the biggest hassle.

I also had to modify my entire design process from the schematic up to match the smt line.  A great deal of time and effort is required to ensure that the P&P file is correct for the particular P&P machine.   

Fine pitch parts like the hideous DFN/QFN, VSOP, leadless 0402, BGA present great difficulty for manual stencil printing & placement.   It can take hours to align the stencil printer and check the print quality.   Solder choice is vital for print quality.  I have to use leadfree solder and after a great deal of research chose the very expensive GC10 paste.  Even so, the solder needs to be at the right temperature, squeegee pressure & angle “just right” to print properly and I often have to readjust the stencil alignment which is a difficult and time consuming process (only req’d if fine pitch parts are used).

The oven was a major hassle.  Leadfree means it is very easy to burn the boards & kill parts!  There is far less margin than with leaded soldering.   The oven’s own temperature measurement is wildly inaccurate and it takes days of careful checking and calibration to get the solder profile correct.  This must be done using the target PCB and adjusted for each different PCB if the size and thermal load changes.   Fortunately I did chose an oven that allowed custom temperature profiles to be created on a PC and uploaded.  (The software supplied is not good!)  My first new purchase would be a better oven but I’m now wary of manufacturers claims.  I also only have single phase power available.

I have learnt that the choice of component package and the packaging – tape & reel vs. tube vs. tray is vital, plus one is often faced with huge MOQ’s that can be very expensive.
Cut tapes and loose parts are a major hassle and to be avoided.

Then there is the the biggest problem of them all that dwarf’s all the other problems.   The Pick and Place machine itself.   What a nightmare.   
Firstly the good bits:  Not long ago, P&P machines were way to expensive to contemplate for small business.  Modern software, imaging and manufacturing have reduced the price to a reasonable level.   
The software supplied with my machine is surprisingly good  - despite the rather obtuse menus due to language and translation issues.   The support from the manufacturer is also very good, but here again language is a big barrier.  (I need to learn Chinese and German!).  It can place most standard parts accurately and consistently but even this takes continual monitoring and adjustment.
Now the not so good bits that keep me awake at night and want me to just grab it an throw the machine into the Pacific Ocean right on top of rx8pilot’s machine… It took about 9 months to get the machine working to an acceptable level to place my first board.  There were a number of manufacturing faults and breakdowns.  (yes, you get what you pay for).   The initial set-up was very difficult, a very steep learning curve, it took months.    Sure, one could place a few 0603 chip resistors pretty quickly on the demo board but my boards use a lot of different parts and it is this that is still an issue, almost 2 years later.

The feeders are a nightmare on the machine I have.  Each one has to be hand adjusted via fiddly springs and if the tape changes, it has to be done again.  The 8mm wide tape feeders only took weeks to get working, but the 12, 16 and 24mm tape feeders are a huge problem.
The single biggest problem is that the feeders on each bank interact.  Get one feeder working and others stop working.   Months go by working on this.   Cassette type feeders probably work  better but they are more expensive.
Tall parts are a problem for most of the entry level P&P machines.  Anything over 7mm presents a collision risk and involves time consuming work-arounds and P&P file manipulation.
Forget about speed and claimed parts-per-hour. in practice these are rubbish.  Continual stoppages and breakdowns are the ultimate arbiter of machine performance.  (I have only placed a handful of PCB’s without the machine stopping and requiring intervention, approx 0.01%).  I have to stand and operate the machine continually, or employ someone to do so, including hand manipulation of the wider tapes to try to prevent stoppages.   This is not something I had ever considered in my original decision to go “in house smt”.   I had not factored the cost paying a wage for an operator to stand by the machine while it ran just to produce 2-3 boards per hour.  (180 parts per board).

*Sigh*  Would I do it all over again?  Probably not.  I would spend a fraction of the time vetting and working closely with a local board loader who has a “real” SMT line.   But now, I’ve put about $30k into my line and for now, I need to recoup some of that money by making boards.

Hope this is of some assistance.

[Dubbie]

This is fascinating reading. Someone a couple of years ago asked my advice about buying their own pick and place. I said “no way, don’t do it”. They did it. I’m not sure they have ever made a single successful run of boards from the thing. This thread vindicates my advice somewhat. Thanks to those who have honestly documented their experiences here.

[Kjelt]

IMO, I think it would be very helpfull for anyone wanting to setup his own SMT line to spent one day in an actual SMT assembly house from scratch to final product.
I have done this for my work a couple of times and I will never forget the panic when the fastest flying probe tester went down. They had to deliver 20000 boards the end of the week and this tester was essential for guaranteeing quality. The same evening an engineer was flown in from the manufacturer from another country, he repaired the tester at nightime and at 7.00 production could continue. I don't know what the bill was they sent but it was high 4 figures for sure.
The manager told me they would not make much profit on that run that week.

Just looking at all the people working there from the logistics planning to the operational persons, to people manually inserting some large components, the different type of machines from stencil, P&P, reflowovens, testers, flowsoldering baths, programmers and stickering.
Still 4 persons that work full time to correct boards manually or try to find why some defects occurr.
It was an ant hill, beautifull but I can not understand someone would really think he could do this all by himself esp. under time pressure.

 

[mikeselectricstuff]

Something to note is that having your own P&P for only your own jobs is a very different situation from being a subcontract manufacturer doing work for multiple clients, all with their own systems, requirements, quirks etc.

Something that you absiolutely must not even consider is paying for the machine by running jobs for other people. That;s a whole different ballgame.
 
For people regularly doing small runs of different boards, doing it in-house with a low-cost (<$20K) setup is definitely worth considering.

If you regularly do runs of the same job, or have higher volumes,where placement time is a significant limiting factor,a subcontractor will almost certainly be a better option.   

[rx8pilot]

This is fascinating reading. Someone a couple of years ago asked my advice about buying their own pick and place. I said “no way, don’t do it”. They did it. I’m not sure they have ever made a single successful run of boards from the thing. This thread vindicates my advice somewhat. Thanks to those who have honestly documented their experiences here.

With all the pain and suffering....I still don't think I could have what I have today without the P&P. The more I use it, the better I get. The better I get, the more my little business grows. I REALLY REALLY REALLY wish it was easier....but no pain no gain I guess. My direct competitors all have slower time to market and higher costs overall. The difficult learning curve has earned me a competitive advantage in the end.

Something to note is that having your own P&P for only your own jobs is a very different situation from being a subcontract manufacturer doing work for multiple clients, all with their own systems, requirements, quirks etc.

Something that you absiolutely must not even consider is paying for the machine by running jobs for other people. That;s a whole different ballgame.

 

Seriously correct. A few people have asked if I can help them assemble. The answer is so easy.....NO. No way. Impossible. Unless they buy out my entire business.
It is, like Mike stated, a totally different universe trying to make boards for other people. I have my little internal system that closely matches my designs - and even that is a very big challenge.

I would rather have my machine sit powered down for months than try to 'keep it busy'.

IMO, I think it would be very helpfull for anyone wanting to setup his own SMT line to spent one day in an actual SMT assembly house from scratch to final product.

There is some wisdom there, but only if you are setting up a commercial operation. A small in-house system that only does in-house designs is at least a more simplified task. Manual printing is fine, no need for AOI or flying probes, etc. I am not sure I know of any good ways to gain an understanding of the PCB assembly reality without actually doing it. That is the majority reason for this thread. Hopefully not a depository of complaints, but something that will paint a realistic picture of what it is like. There are a lot of discussions that focus on machines and specification when the most important thing to focus on is the WHOLE process.


My personal progression into to P&P:
Started with Weller WES51 soldering station, manual solder paste syringe. Manually placed with tweezers, soldered each joint with the iron.
EFFECTIVENESS: Totally F'ing stupid

Found a small batch oven and started ordering prototype stencils. Still placing with tweezers from a box full of parts.
EFFECTIVENESS: Got through some simple prototypes

Added a vacuum pen and fabricated some cut tape holders to organize parts. The vacuum pen is still in use today and I love it. Tweezers are rotten. Also got an Amscope stereo microscope.
EFFECTIVENESS: This really sped up the process and reduced the mental anguish. Now I could do pilot runs of small designs. 10-20 pcs before I went crazy. The microscope immediately revealed tiny bridges and other flaws that were causing problems.

Added a stencil printer, color-coded part trays, and color-coded assembly guides that I printed and had as PDF on a computer monitor.
EFFECTIVENESS: This allowed more complicated designs to be hand assembled. The stencil printer is a piece of junk, but far better than the loose prototype stencil taped to my bench. The parts organization was a huge boost for speed and accuracy. This is where I achieved my max speed assembling manually. At the time, I had (3) double-sided boards that needed to be assembled. I did them in batches of 5-8 at a time

NOTES: Other important gear I picked up along the way that was important - pneumatic syringe dispenser for solder paste and SMD adhesives, hot air machine, upgraded the Weller WES51 to a JBC (life changer), a solid variety of vacuum pen heads.

This is when I purchased the P&P machine but continued to manually assemble PCB for many months (right next to the machine). As the machine slowly came to life.....it was clear I had to take all my previous tools and knowledge and create a system of sorts. I was now in a position where I was more process/skills limited than hardware/tools limited. I did not log the time it took to fix and modify the machine. I also have no real idea how much learning curve I have put into all of this. I do know that I would fail miserably trying to manually assemble my current designs even with my low volumes. I have too many small and fine pitch parts.


Becuase of the path I chose, I have very little experience sending boards out for assembly. The limited experience I do have showed me that it is not easy or fast or cheap.

[Dubbie]

These guys had none of the aspects that made the endeavour worthwhile in the end for you.

They made very short runs. Maybe 6 boards in total of a design. They had simple boards, maybe 30 components each. And lastly they only had the budget for the crappiest Chinese PnP with useless feeders.

This is fascinating reading. Someone a couple of years ago asked my advice about buying their own pick and place. I said “no way, don’t do it”. They did it. I’m not sure they have ever made a single successful run of boards from the thing. This thread vindicates my advice somewhat. Thanks to those who have honestly documented their experiences here.

With all the pain and suffering....I still don't think I could have what I have today without the P&P. The more I use it, the better I get. The better I get, the more my little business grows. I REALLY REALLY REALLY wish it was easier....but no pain no gain I guess. My direct competitors all have slower time to market and higher costs overall. The difficult learning curve has earned me a competitive advantage in the end.

[jmelson]

Yep - here and there. I am curious how many people have small systems, how many people think they need a small system, why they think they need a small system, what kind of learning curves and issues do people face in reality, etc, etc.

Well, I got my Philips CSM84 in 2007, and was using it in production in less than 2 weeks.  I have never even SEEN a P&P machine before, but I had retrofitted CNC to a manual mill.  There was some learning curve, but not real bad.  There were a few error messages that were not in the book, so I have to invent what the cause was and what to do about it.  The biggest part of the learning curve was coming up with how to size solder paste apertures to get good soldering with minimal bridging.  I have that pretty well figured out now.

I have done over 1000 boards on my machine.  I do small batches of some fairly complicated boards.  By small batches, I'm talking about anywhere from 10 to 60 boards at a time.  Contract manufacturers will charge a LOT for such short runs, as their setup time is the same for 1 or 1000.  Most of my boards have parts on both sides, and can have up to a few hundred parts/board.

My Philips CSM84 is not a "small system", it is 5 x 7 feet and weights 700+ kg.  It cost the previous owner over $100K.  We have about 15 different board designs we do on it.  My machine was running production less than 2 weeks before it was shipped to me.  The seller was getting 2 brand-new machines, and had to get the old ones off his floor.  So, I didn't have anything to fix when I got it.

Jon

[jmelson]

I also had to modify my entire design process from the schematic up to match the smt line.  A great deal of time and effort is required to ensure that the P&P file is correct for the particular P&P machine.   

strangely, I did not have to do this.  The first boards I built on the P&P were designed for manual assembly, and were fairly low-density.  So, I went straight from manual assembly to P&P on the very same designs.  As time went on, I did a few things differently to accommodate the P&P better, but it was not a big deal.

Fine pitch parts like the hideous DFN/QFN, VSOP, leadless 0402, BGA present great difficulty for manual stencil printing & placement.

Yes, the leadless chip-scale parts are a nightmare!  I did ONE board with some CSP components and had dozens of shorts/board.
I will stay with lead-ed parts from now on, so I can inspect and rework any shorts.

  It can take hours to align the stencil printer and check the print quality.   Solder choice is vital for print quality.  I have to use leadfree solder and after a great deal of research chose the very expensive GC10 paste.  Even so, the solder needs to be at the right temperature, squeegee pressure & angle “just right” to print properly and I often have to readjust the stencil alignment which is a difficult and time consuming process (only req’d if fine pitch parts are used).

The oven was a major hassle.  Leadfree means it is very easy to burn the boards & kill parts!  There is far less margin than with leaded soldering.   The oven’s own temperature measurement is wildly inaccurate and it takes days of careful checking and calibration to get the solder profile correct.

I print by hand, with a hand-aligned stencil, and it works pretty well.  Yes, there are good and bad solders.  I have to get some of this magic GC10 stuff.  The Indium Corp. solder I got recently does not perform well, the paste just smears out a couple minutes after printing and causes shorts.

As for the oven, I use a converted GE toaster oven, but the trick is to poke the thermocouple into a PTH on the board, so the controller measures ACTUAL board temperature.  This works great, but I still get a darkening of the silkscreen, and sometimes even a slight darkening of the whole board.

Cut tapes and loose parts are a major hassle and to be avoided.

I buy whole reels of generic R's and C's, but for specialty parts (big value or HV caps, for instance) and expensive ICs I buy cut tape.  The Yamaha feeders on the Philips really handle cut tape very well.  You only lose a couple parts at the beginning, and can use all parts right to the end of the tape.

  It can place most standard parts accurately and consistently but even this takes continual monitoring and adjustment.

I have had to make some adjustments to the nozzle offsets and other alignment values on my machine.  But, after that, I have never "adjusted" my placement files to correct for the machine.  I run a program that I wrote that pulls the XYR from the CAD file and formats it for the P&P machine, and load that file into the machine.

When I went to doing a board with 0603 parts, I had to set up a crosshair and adjust the feeders so that the pick-up location was more accurate and consistent.  I found that dome-top LEDs and 0603 LEDs would not pick up well.  But, 0805 LEDs and up, as long as they have a flat top, work fine.  Yes, feeders are "fiddly", but I do not have to ADJUST them for each tape.  I do have a problem where 0.1uF caps have thicker tape, and that tends to stick a bit and not advance.  I put a couple C-clamps on the tail of the tape and that helps it pull through the feeder.

The Philips CSM84 can only handle parts up to 6.5 mm height, so that is a limitation.  I have had a few breakdowns with it, but I managed to fix them all.  A sensor went out and it would randomly throw completed boards off the end of the conveyor onto the floor!  The rotation motor's commutator was packed with copper dust and shorting out, causing faults.  Sometimes the vacuum generator/valves get contaminated with oil and you get weak vacuum, and you have to tear them down for cleaning.

But, all in all, I can't IMAGINE running my business at the level it is now without this machine!  I've built 1000+ boards, and mounted well over 100K parts with it.

Jon

[DerekG]

I have too many small and fine pitch parts.

Yes, I learnt this very early on when using contract SMD assembly shops.

Each component loaded costs money & fine pitch parts cost more to load than non-fine pitch.

Working with the assembly shop during the design process can save a lot of money. This includes optimal pad apertures & solder paste stencil thickness & even ensuring larger SMD components do not shade the smaller ones.

Oh ......... and reducing the parts count by designing in micros etc can save you lots.

With the continual drive for more miniaturisation from the component manufacturers themselves, part footprint selection becomes more challenging as each month goes on.

[grimmjaw]

Interesting thread..

Never owned/operate P&P myself but being struggling with the process.
Typically I have a board with >800 parts, >90 unique part, and always have subcon the assembly . Cost about 1500 USD and 3-4 weeks lead time.
Always wonder if cheaper & faster to buy a P&P,, at least for prototype



 

[rx8pilot]

Interesting thread..

Never owned/operate P&P myself but being struggling with the process.
Typically I have a board with >800 parts, >90 unique part, and always have subcon the assembly . Cost about 1500 USD and 3-4 weeks lead time.
Always wonder if cheaper & faster to buy a P&P,, at least for prototype

$1,500 for a single prototype?
Do you have to kit the parts for the assembler or do they source the parts?

When my work was dominated by prototypes - I seriously considered one of the manual machines. Some of the ones I saw were pretty clever and would make a board like yours a practical effort. Perhaps not something that you are excited about, but something you could do in 4 hours instead of 4 weeks. I was able to sustain about 400-500CPH average when I was organized and had all the parts laid out nicely in holders and bins. In your case - factor in the prep work, paste printing, restroom breaks, etc....4hrs is reasonable. 5 hours would be safe.

Of course, if you needed 10.....yikes. A P&P may be helpful if the learning curve has not scared you away.

The 3-4 week lead time for outsourcing would have me looking for a very tall bridge. I have never had that much time for a prototype.

[xaxaxa]

I generally outsource production runs and hand assemble prototypes; the last board I did has ~350 parts, ~1200 pads, and 56 BOM lines. The assembly for 50pcs costed $800 total, which is $16 per board. Lead time is about 1 month.

The same design takes me about half a day to assemble using stencil + paste and tweezer for pick and place. I have custom software that will display one BOM line at a time and a picture of the pcb with all the locations for that component highlighted which makes it much easier; most of the time is spent gathering the parts rather than PnP, so a manual PnP machine wouldn't really give me any benefit.

Nowadays for prototypes I use a low volume PCBA service that will solder just the passives, so I only need to solder the chips and connectors. The cost is about $60 for the design I mentioned earlier for 5pcs and this includes PCB fabrication (10x10 cm, 4 layers), PCBA, and parts (passives). With this there is no reason for me to consider getting a PnP system.

[Gary.M]

Tell me more about your custom software?

I have custom software that will display one BOM line at a time and a picture of the pcb with all the locations for that component highlighted which makes it much easier; most of the time is spent gathering the parts rather than PnP, so a manual PnP machine wouldn't really give me any benefit.

[rx8pilot]

I generally outsource production runs and hand assemble prototypes; the last board I did has ~350 parts, ~1200 pads, and 56 BOM lines. The assembly for 50pcs costed $800 total, which is $16 per board. Lead time is about 1 month.

That is pretty good pricing. Do you trust the house to source parts - or do you prepare and send kits?

Since you are able to tolerate the lead-time - it sounds excellent. Maybe I should consider using my pick and place machine to build the immediate needs so that I can outsource the rest. Overall - that may be a great way for me to maximize my time and still accomplish the quick delivery of the product.

[mrpackethead]

Having my own PNP line has transformed how i cna do things, but it was not just a matter of getting some machines and seeing things transform overnight!

two years ago i bought two 2nd hand Yamaha YV100-ii pnp machines at Auction.         These are seriously well engineered machines, but older.    They are good for placing down to .4mm pitched QFN's and 0402's.  ( can do 0201 but i dont' need to ).      I wont' commetn much on the amount of time it took to learn what i needed to know, but it was a lot of time.  Its not just the PNP machine, is the solder paste application and the reflow.

However after a lot of work, its transformed what we do, and means its economic for us to to low volume, quick turn boards.. I can run 6-8 different jobs in a single day if need be. The key was building an end to end systm to manage parts and libarys.   we are an altium Shop.   

Firstly we transformed all our Altium librarys, to use an online DBLIB.    If its not in the company Dblib you are not allowed to use the part in your design.   If you want to add a part you have to submit it into the database.  This means that you collect all the info about that part, like who sells it and were we can order it from.    Yes, its quite a bit of work.  So theres a big incenttive to use parts that are already in teh libary.  As it turns out we can make an awful lot of thigns with a library of only about 300 differnet items.     This is the key to our sucess.   We've been able to minimize the actual inventory of parts to an absolute minimum.

As stock is received, we inventory it into our stock control systme ( same database that contains the altium library ) so we know were it is.  We actually print a QR code that tracks the parts through our warehouse. So we can just put reels in the next avaible bin space.. Habing a hand held scanner has solved lots of problems.

We have a custom PNP, and BOM job that is exported out of altium..  That gets processed by some python scripts to create a Picking List, and also the Yamaha VIOS files.. It splits it up across the two machines and top and bottom. It also lets me set up panels etc.   Specific compoent information is set up in the PNP machines about the compoentns..  and we use the parts match functions there.
For most of the jobs we do, we probably only need to swap a few feeders of specialist parts over..   Most of my generic jelly bean parts never get swapped out untill they get run out of parts.

Sometimes if i have a large complex part that i only need to place a few of, i'll do it by hand at the end of the run before I reflow it. Its sometimes not worth the effort to set up.

Before i had my own PNP line, it simply was'nt economic to run 2 panels of somethign.. Now its almost press print.


The attached file is a Picking list i just ran against a new design; this one has quite a few new parts in it, but i'm building a lot of them, so Its ok.

the sections are quite explantory..     A list of parts that are alrady on the PNP,   Were they are location   NICK_15 is the 15th slot on machine "NICK",  the  2nd nubmer is the total needed, the last nubmer is the number we have in stock

In stock, is the same, but they are on the shelf.       NP_C3_3     Northpoint - Shelf C3, bin 3        Bin-B is a special bin :-)     

And a list of items to order.

When i place an order of items,   through the web interface,  we'll get another section that tells me that they are ordered, and were they are comign from.

The custom database and reports will never end. but being able to ask a question like " how many ABC's can i make with the stock i have on hand " is helpful.

As time peromits i add new modules to speed thigns up.

I'm never going to take on adhoc assembly work for others.  Thats a mugs game. The effort it takes to design pcbs that are manufacturable is quite big and peopel just dont' do it.
( I used to be one of them ).   My desings are massively designed for Manufacture. Its the little thigns that make SUCH A massive difference.


I did some interesting reports this week.

I've found that i have about 3x as many problems with QFP's as compared to QFNS..   QFN's are so much easier to handle, and reflow effectively.  You would think not having legs might be a problem. In fact it helps!

[julianhigginson]

Really interesting thread! Thanks for being so open with your trials and tribulations.

The first electronics company I ever worked for had its own P&P line. And a guy who ran it every day. As a junior engineer, I probably wasn't making the best designs, but he never had a problem with what I sent through. And from memory, the 5 or 6 engineers in our team had free reign to spec what we wanted, and there wasn't any database in the engineering side (though anything chucked over the fence to operations ended up in parts database) though the designs were all kind of similar, so our free choices probably weren't massively unique....

This was late 90s, so the gear was probably very solid and expensive and not so many years old at the time. I think something broke once, and he had a few days down while parts were express couriered from Europe, but normally he was just pushing out production batches and prototype runs day after day... He made it look easy.

It's interesting to think he might have had all the run to run issues you guys talk about, but just quietly made it happen. Though maybe having a bigger budget and newer gear (at the time) made a big difference?

[D3f1ant]

For me having a in house PNP meant we could turn out prototypes and low volume orders in very short time frames. I couldn't run my business without that capability now,it's possibly the best thing I ever invested in,  along with a CNC mill and a 3D printer.

The rest of the lifestyle experience is about the same as everyone else. The learning curve is steep, the support from the supplier limited to non existent even on a new machine.

[xaxaxa]

Tell me more about your custom software?

https://gist.github.com/xaxaxa/9a57705e701738ec38ea01df3699b7d2
It's just a simple script that takes a gEDA pcb file, bom file, and a png render of of the board, and generates a series of png images; this is an example image:

[grimmjaw]

$1,500 for a single prototype?
Do you have to kit the parts for the assembler or do they source the parts?

When my work was dominated by prototypes - I seriously considered one of the manual machines. Some of the ones I saw were pretty clever and would make a board like yours a practical effort. Perhaps not something that you are excited about, but something you could do in 4 hours instead of 4 weeks. I was able to sustain about 400-500CPH average when I was organized and had all the parts laid out nicely in holders and bins. In your case - factor in the prep work, paste printing, restroom breaks, etc....4hrs is reasonable. 5 hours would be safe.

Of course, if you needed 10.....yikes. A P&P may be helpful if the learning curve has not scared you away.

The 3-4 week lead time for outsourcing would have me looking for a very tall bridge. I have never had that much time for a prototype.

Is the price too high? Legit question..the range I'm getting is between 1kUSD-1k5USD.The board has  few BGA & 0402.We actually kit the part
Prototype is really a pain.Can easily spend 8h assembling board with no guarantee the prototype will work (either mistake in assembly or design) .

If not mistaken , manual P&P can cost as much as desktop P&P. I'm looking for solution since placing part with tweezer  for 8h will be the death of me.
From the sound of it, owning P&P seem to be not much better 

[NorthGuy]

Having my own PNP line has transformed how i cna do things, but it was not just a matter of getting some machines and seeing things transform overnight!

This is an excellent process. But how about feeders jamming, moving out of place, tapes not moving or moving too fast losing parts, parts falling from the nozzle or sticking to it. All those horrible problems that other people encounter. Do they affect you not?

[xaxaxa]

That is pretty good pricing. Do you trust the house to source parts - or do you prepare and send kits?

In my first production run I decided to let the board house source almost everything (there were just 3 parts they couldn't get that I had to provide);

Generally I'm not very concerned about counterfeit ICs; I think parts fall into 3 categories:
* high end/difficult to clone parts - FPGAs, high speed ADCs, high speed op-amps, RFICs, etc - these are the least concern, and any source (even aliexpress/taobao) is considered fine; most chips in my design fall into this category
* counterfeit-prone parts and jellybean parts - low speed op-amps, voltage regulators, microcontrollers (stm32/atmel/PIC), passives, nrf series, anything vintage, etc - these I would take greater cautions and develop rigorous functional tests
* connectors - these are the highest concern; a bad quality connector can be impossible to tell from the real thing and pass all tests just fine (and cause reliability problems down the road), so these would be the first candidate for supplying myself

I also provided a test jig that does functional tests and checks for RF characteristics which would catch out-of-spec parts.

[Selectech]

Years ago, started with tweezers and soldering iron, then got a hot air tool.

For a while had a CNC machine that put down paste, manual place with vacuum pen and a reflow oven ( toaster oven with controller ).

With low cost SS stencils now available, can't afford time & fuss to use anything else.

Got a TM220 a few years ago, largely set up with a standard set of parts ( 0603 & 0805 R & C, SOT23, 2 mm square Fets, SOD323, couple of TSSOP16 )  that are common across the roughly 20 board types I make. I have a manual p&p machine for the rest of the items that get placed, small qty per card, SOIC8,14,16 QFN20, QFN48, TQFP100 etc.

The TM220 was a bit fiddly to get set up, but has been a big help for the cards that I make in batches of 10 to 20 at a time, or new proto cards that are not yet ready for volume.

For larger qty of my main production items, I build in lots of 100 units or more with a local assembly house ( Ottawa, Canada ) using my parts kits ( 500 to 700 placements per card ) . They have been quite competitive in terms of assembly cost and assembly quality has been excellent.

I am waiting for delivery of an OpenPlacer but that is really more of an experimental aid for low volume R&D assembly rather than replacement for assembly house.

[rx8pilot]

Having my own PNP line has transformed how i cna do things, but it was not just a matter of getting some machines and seeing things transform overnight!

Nice story! Thanks for sharing....you are where I am planning to be. My progress is slow because I am still a one-man-band....but getting there.

This is an excellent process. But how about feeders jamming, moving out of place, tapes not moving or moving too fast losing parts, parts falling from the nozzle or sticking to it. All those horrible problems that other people encounter. Do they affect you not?

This is a very good question. It refers to a daily struggle in my personal experience. After everything is planned, located, programmed, and loaded.....the feeders mess up. The nozzles are sticky. Some fiddly part of the machine needs attention. It only takes ONE single feeder messing up to eat a lot of time. If you are lucky enough to have a matching spare feeder - perhaps the problem will be solved in 10 minutes. If it is the only available feeder for that type of part.....you either have to hand place that part or fix the feeder.

If you look at percentages - my system appears to be very reliable. The reality is that 99% working means 1% is not. If that 1% is a critical feeder - it takes a lot of time.
Some tapes have really sticky adhesive holding the cover film.....that can cause problems for some of my feeders but not all of them. Some feeders are more accurate than others. Some periodically don't advance. Jamming happens but quite rare with Quad feeders. I think what I need to do is spend a day or 2 going through my top feeders for maintenance and ranking. Most of the problems are easy fixes, but I do have to disassemble and inspect/measure. I have spent a lot of time calibrating and doing preventative maintenance on the machine itself....but I only mess with the feeders when they mess up. That is only noticed in the middle of a job when I am in a huge hurry so they generally just get a band-aid and thrown back into the fight.

Real feeder maintenance program....IMPORTANT. I have 300 feeders now. If each one takes 30min for evaluation and adjustments, that is nearly a month of full-time work. Yikes!!!!! Hopefully, I can average much faster and only prioritize 200 feeders.

It's interesting to think he might have had all the run to run issues you guys talk about, but just quietly made it happen. Though maybe having a bigger budget and newer gear (at the time) made a big difference?

My guess is that if I ran my machine all day, every day.....I would be MUCH better at dealing with all the quirks. It is a periodic process in my world and it takes quite a while to get back up to speed when I set up a new job. My brain has already archived what I know about P&P and I have to restore the archive to get anything done. Over time, I have made up carious cheat-sheets that help me remember little details. I have a bunch of videos that I made showing how to do infrequent tasks like calibrations, adding a new type of feeder, prgramming a new type of nozzle or whatver.

If I ever hire someone....all those notes and videos will be important in training.

If not mistaken , manual P&P can cost as much as desktop P&P. I'm looking for solution since placing part with tweezer  for 8h will be the death of me.
From the sound of it, owning P&P seem to be not much better 

In the end....it is a detailed decision based on factors that will never be prosecuted on a forum.
The really nice manual systems seem to cost as much as the entry-level  / low-capability P&P machines. For BGA-0402-prototype - a nice manual machine seems like a better option. I kinda wish I had both full-auto and manual. Manual for one-off prototypes where I am still working out values of R's and C's as I am assembling. Full auto once I have the bugs worked out.

As for tweezers......I at least doubled my placement speed when I got my cheap fish pump vacuum pen setup. With that and a good set of bent tips and a smooth rotating surface, I could place rather quick rarely having to touch the PCB itself to accomodate rotations.