The Reality of a Pick and Place Lifestyle

[D3f1ant]

Don't discount the usefulness of using a machine in combination with hand placing for prototypes. Let the machine do all or the majority of the caps and resisitors and any hard to place fine pitch parts, have machine loaded with common value parts and jellybean transistors and diodes.
For low volume and prototypes you want a machine that is easy to setup for new parts or odd parts, and that don't need everything on feeders, ie it can pick from strips double sided taped to the placement deck

[mrpackethead]

This is an excellent process. But how about feeders jamming, moving out of place, tapes not moving or moving too fast losing parts, parts falling from the nozzle or sticking to it. All those horrible problems that other people encounter. Do they affect you not?

Yes, i do have some of those problems. however not nearly as many as the folks that are using the $3-5k machines.  teh amount of engineering in these machines is quite amazing. and i have a regular maintaince schedule where i go and check the alignments,   make adjustments etc.      Usint the right nozzles for parts is critical.  Knowing how to configure the pick up and drop is really important.   DId i say it took a LOT of time to learn all this stuff...  but its about solving those problems learnign what caused them and avoiding them in the future. 

[mrpackethead]

Don't discount the usefulness of using a machine in combination with hand placing for prototypes. Let the machine do all or the majority of the caps and resisitors and any hard to place fine pitch parts, have machine loaded with common value parts and jellybean transistors and diodes.
For low volume and prototypes you want a machine that is easy to setup for new parts or odd parts, and that don't need everything on feeders, ie it can pick from strips double sided taped to the placement deck

This is very sage advice.    I have some oddball parts that just are too hard to place,   ( a huge inductor for example ).. It easy to hand place..    I sometimes have some paste in pin Connectors.   they only add a few seconds per part to put on.

[Kean]

I have a TM240A.  I almost certainly wouldn't have purchased it, but it kind of came as a bonus along with a manual stencil printer, when I moved into new business premises.  Long story...

I had been considering getting a Neoden 4 or something around that price range, but I really don't do enough volume to justify it.  I would often hand assemble small batches of boards for my clients - never more than 10 at a time.  Many of these are quite small and tightly packed PCBs (0603, 0402, but no BGA), and the small ones are often a double sided load.

After acquiring the TM240A it sat in a corner for 6 months, until I had a job worth running - five panels of 6 PCBs.  It took a long day to get familiar with the machine, mostly finding the right way to load tapes and formatting the data file, but also making sense of the controls, and correct setting of part rotation.  Training a staff member on the basics took a few hours, including him generating the data file for his design.

I had no one to show me anything, other than some YT videos, but I do have many years of experience with CNC equipment and manual assembly.  Surprisingly I found handling a 3x2 panel was easy, but the instructions were lacking on how to restart at a particular component on a PCB in the panel other than the first.  That was the one time I reached out for support from Neoden.

I do have the usual issues, like too few "feeders", and mispicks with components getting dropped around the tape handling area.  Most issues I've found to be due to tapes getting jammed due to leader tape splices, or poor handling of the cut tape from the supplier.  Cut tape is one of those things you just have to deal with when using "expensive" parts in low volume manufacture.  I now buy as many parts that I can in full reels.

I certainly don't try to place every part with the machine, just the majority of small & cheap parts.  It isn't much hassle to hand place a large capacitor or inductor during inspection before reflow.  Usually a few of the placed parts need a bit of a nudge into position, but the reflow is the bottleneck in the process anyway.

I think I've only run about 6 different designs on it in the last 8 months, and I don't imagine using it more than one day a month on average, if that.  For that first design in a panel of 6, I've run about 30 panels, and the only real issue was reworking the first couple of panels where I had a DC/DC converter chip rotated 180.  Didn't show up in my initial low voltage tests, but blew most of the components when powered from 24V!  That was a pain to rework, as it was a TSSOP-8 package and up tight against a large diode and inductor.

I definitely haven't got the process streamlined to the point where it is economical compared to my local assembly house, but it makes a lot of sense for the small runs of prototypes or low-volume designs.

My local assembler requires me to kit parts for any runs, but at least he is pretty flexible about cut tape and using my 300x400 stencils.  Most other assemblers I've dealt with require large unframed stencils and charge $600+ each for them.

[PartialDischarge]

What about a semiautomated pick and place, like the LPKF Protoplace, haven't seen them discussed here, and make better sense for small runs. However the prices may not be that far apart

[Kjelt]

They are discussed, but indeed pricewise probably something you want to build yourself.
Still the biggest issue remains parts storage/sourcing/feeding.
The LPKF IIRC has a circular rotating storage unit, but that only covers what 100 parts?
R's and C's alone in different sizes would take 600 trays.

[mikeselectricstuff]

The very fact that there are hardly any manual P&P systems on the market, and none AFAIK from China, where labour is cheap, suggests to me that few people think they are worthwhile.

[rx8pilot]

The very fact that there are hardly any manual P&P systems on the market, and none AFAIK from China, where labour is cheap, suggests to me that few people think they are worthwhile.

The problem I saw with the manual machines is that by the time they were good enough to be useful....they had become very expensive, big, and complicated. I made a brief attempt to design and build a small machine to assist me. Essentially a dampened steady rest for my hand with a camera and lights. A fairly simple concept, but still a lot of work to bring it to reality. After machining a few pieces - I put it off to the side.

By the time it would have been useful - I would have been barely 1 step away from adding full motion control to it.

[rx8pilot]

I should add that if money and space were less of an issue - I would like to have a really nice manual machine.

[NorthGuy]

What about a semiautomated pick and place, like the LPKF Protoplace, haven't seen them discussed here, and make better sense for small runs. However the prices may not be that far apart

I don't have a PnP machine. I was thinking about getting a PnP machine for prototyping. It seems that the manual machines would target people like me. But I don't think they are useful for me. What I want is inserting a board, pressing a button, and returning back after some time to a whole placed board - this would save me lots of time.

An automated machine would do this for me, but even $10K machines don't seem to be reliable enough for this (based on this and other threads) - they're designed for speed, not for reliability or ease of use.

Manual machines have a potential to save me some time (assuming the machine is very reliable), but the benefit wouldn't be big enough to worth considering. I liked how they can place big ICs, BGAs etc., but it's very few of these I need to place, and I can rework later if something goes wrong. For such a small benefit, the manual machines are extremely overpriced.

Long story short, I will not be getting any PnP machine. The technology is not there yet.

[Kjelt]

Long story short, I will not be getting any PnP machine. The technology is not there yet.

Ah c'mon technology is not the issue, the issue is price. As Mike already said the XY gantry is a small part of the puzzle. Feeders at a price of >€100 a piece and needing at least 50 of them will set you back high four to five figures.
So what you want is a "slow" reliable machine that can pick components visually assisted in a random position from small containers or any other container then place them on the pcb and visually check the result. It does not matter if it takes 30 minutes for one pcb as long as it is ok. This is possible with openpnp I think but indeed not ready as is sold.

[rx8pilot]

What I want is inserting a board, pressing a button, and returning back after some time to a whole placed board - this would save me lots of time.

That process is called "Send the job to an assembly house"
ALL P&P systems, regardless of price, require a lot of work to build the skills and then do the job. Obviously, the newer, fancier, and more expensive machines will more reliably pickup and place overall - but they still need skilled labor in abundance. Skills and monitoring take time. Troubleshooting takes time.

I had a call with the Europlacer rep last week. The smallest machine they offer with the same number of feeders that I have for my old-school machine is about $180,000 or so. My guess is that it is easier and better in just about every way......but still a lot of work. Let us pretend it is half the time to setup (being generous), it would still take a lot of time to recover the $180k. Maybe it can go for a full day without much attention, I don't know for sure. Even if there are no mis-picks - it will still run out of parts, trays and cut tapes are part of my reality. So even when my machine is tip-top shape - there is always a part that needs to be replenished.

The used/refurbished machine I have now was about $10k by the time it was being used for the first time and it slashed my assembly efforts overall. Still a pain in the neck - but far better than manual assembly. [GUESSING] I have a couple of hundred hours total fiddling, fixing, and learning on top of the effort to just setup and run the system. If I had to guess, I would say I have probably got that time back and I am getting faster and better every time I assemble a batch of boards.

I have no expectation of 'push a button and come back later' performance from any machine. At least not anything like I experience with CNC machining. In the CNC world, the machines just make parts over and over with very little fuss once they are setup. Very little monitoring and tweaking needed if you are configured well.

When I hear assembly lead times that on the order of a month or more....my eyes get really big. The challenge of an in-house assembly system seems like the lesser evil.

[NorthGuy]

So what you want is a "slow" reliable machine that can pick components visually assisted in a random position from small containers or any other container then place them on the pcb and visually check the result. It does not matter if it takes 30 minutes for one pcb as long as it is ok. This is possible with openpnp I think but indeed not ready as is sold.

Yes, such thing would be ideal for me. I did think about DIY machine, but it would not be easy to design/make feeders. Picking from the containers has problems to solve too - parts may sit on top of each other, may lay on a side, or may need to be flipped, the nozzle may not be able reach places close to the container wall or in the corner (especially if you make walls tall). The worst, if a part falls from the nozzle into a different container, you're doomed. So, it'll take considerable time and effort to design too. In the end, even though the use of containers avoid feeders, it might not be very reliable neither.

[rx8pilot]

So, it'll take considerable time and effort to design too. In the end, even though the use of containers avoid feeders, it might not be very reliable neither.

Shortcuts are indeed hard to find in this space.
If I was looking for a hobby project - it would be a ton of fun to attack the challenge [with zero expectation of making it 'worth the effort]. Every time I struggle with some detail of assembly - it reminds me why countless engineers over the course of decades have arrived at the extremely complex solutions we see in the professional environments.

Lot's of effort to reduce cost and complexity and they all quickly throw capability, reliability, and usability out the window as they chase a low price tag.

With all of that said....the commercial machines have a huge focus on raw speed. It the focus was for a slow-ish or modestly fast machine that was VERY easy and VERY reliable while capable of placing 0201 and BGA - I feel like that would lower the cost enough to be practical for small businesses. I can be totally successful with a precise and reliable process that is slow by commercial standards. New machine placement rates are out of this world......but I only need 1000-1500CPH to be completely satisfied.

Single nozzle, single gantry, slow pitch ball screws, lighter weight chassis - not a problem.

[khs]

I have no expectation of 'push a button and come back later' performance from any machine. At least not anything like I experience with CNC machining. In the CNC world, the machines just make parts over and over with very little fuss once they are setup. Very little monitoring and tweaking needed if you are configured well.

This is excactly my experience.

My old cnc mill runs alone.
Running my pnp, one finger is always on the stop button ready to press.

The reason may be a mill uses quite large and heavy tools and work pieces,
a pnp handles tiny parts and small pc boards.

Additional a pnp is much faster. As a rule of thumb my milling jobs take about half a hour to one hour, so I can go into another room and make some development work. (For me there is no way to work in the garage, because it's a common basement garage  )

The time my boards are in the pnp is about two minutes (70 parts). This is 10 times shorter (or faster) compared to my mill jobs.

Making a prototype with my pnp over all takes about two hours from the layout software to the soldered board.

If I would send the boards to an assembly house it would not save much time. The parts must be ordered, the orders must be placed, the parcel must be received, opened  and inspected and the invoice must be paid.

At the end of the day, it was one of my best investments to pay about 5K€ for a CSM60 with 50 feeders including a (new) low noise compressor and move it all (in parts) one stair down.

[mrpackethead]

I have a DIMA FP600 manual PNP.  Once everythign is setup a good operator can place 900 parts per hour.     Its the setup time that will kill you.

[JPlocher]

> What I want is inserting a board, pressing a button, and returning back after some time to a whole placed board - this would save me lots of time.

So would we all...

Assume the machine works perfectly - you still run out of parts, have board/solder paste issues, inventory management and physics to get in the way...

As with any precision machine (anything that slaps around 0402's and 0603's at a "thousands per hour" rate *is* a precision system, or it is garbage), routine maintenance and recalibration is required.  Feeders wear out or get bumped, springs get sprung, cameras collect smudges, waste tape curls around and finds its way back into the moving parts, and - even after tweaking everything, something will get out of alignment as soon as you turn your back.  Google, Facebook and Apple have nothing on these machine's level of (malevolent) AI technology...

With all that, 6 months in, after several hundred boards and a dozen designs, I'm still happy with my CHMT48.  The friction tape cover takeups and the pin-pulling part advance are not nearly as convenient as swappable Yamaha pneumatic feeders, and I'm still improving my workflow from board design to machine (AMEN! to the posts discussing parts management processes, they are an absolute must-have!), but it makes prototyping and short run production possible for the hobby work I do (model train electronics).  My hobby time is my scarce resource, and the PnP system pays itself back at a 10x to 20x rate (1-2 hours on the machine -vs- 2-3 weekends mixing board assembly with family time...); granted, I could do the same with a fab service (and have...); from a time perspective, I spent almost as much time kitting parts, creating assembly and test instructions and doing the running around as I did hand assembling things in the first place - sigh.

From a financial-only perspective, if you need to ask, the answer is "send it to a fab service".  At the going rates here for PTH and SMT hand assembly services, you could get a 500 or 1000 boards built for just the capital cost of a low end machine, not counting stencil printers, ovens, solder stencils, solder, the space used for all the above and the time out of your life it will consume.

• Lesson #1:  Reels are much better than cut-tape segments
• Lesson #1A:   The parts you really need to place won't fit into your machine because <perversity>
  
• Lesson #2:  Reels look like they hold an infinite quantity of parts - but they run out when least expected!
  
• Lesson #3:  When loading a reel of new parts, be sure to sample and store sufficient loose pieces so that you can rework/repair PnP failures during board inspection - it is a PITA to extract single components from a reel after it has been loaded into the machine/cassette!
  
• Lesson #4:  The dandruff that falls out of a PnP machine is only salvageable if you don't value your time.
  

[rx8pilot]

After going it alone for a couple of years..... I no longer feel alone. The good and bad I have experienced seem to be rather similar to others that have chimed in.

Really nice to read all these experiences and insights.

Short and misplld from my mobile......

[Kjelt]

I have no expectation of 'push a button and come back later' performance from any machine. At least not anything like I experience with CNC machining. In the CNC world, the machines just make parts over and over with very little fuss once they are setup. Very little monitoring and tweaking needed if you are configured well.

This is excactly my experience.
My old cnc mill runs alone.
Running my pnp, one finger is always on the stop button ready to press. 

Weird comparisson but if you want to make it my thoughts about this are different:

- a cnc needs each and every workpiece mounted manually over and over again unless you have a $1M workcenter with workpiece library where you can pre-install 6 or so workpieces. Tools can break, motors can loose steps when feed is too high and stop so a cnc machine can stop now and then and you have to clean clearances, change the tool and restart where you left off. I never saw a full automated cnc line where aluminium blocks are clamped by robots and the finished product is unloaded in boxes without human handling, have you?

- a P&P machine when installed properly and maintained can run 100s of boards sequential without stop. The last line I visited begin of this year had shifts of 10 persons personell monitoring 7 pcb lines and most they had to do is visually inspecting the output (more monitoring), putting new reels/feeders on the machine before the parts were running out (orange light). In the two hours I visited them, no red light occurred (full stop due to placing failure or obstruction or whatever) and the 7 lines produced over I believe 1500 boards. There were no persons with their hands over the ES button

[rx8pilot]

Weird comparisson but if you want to make it my thoughts about this are different:

- a cnc needs each and every workpiece mounted manually over and over again unless you have a $1M workcenter with workpiece library where you can pre-install 6 or so workpieces. Tools can break, motors can loose steps when feed is too high and stop so a cnc machine can stop now and then and you have to clean clearances, change the tool and restart where you left off. I never saw a full automated cnc line where aluminium blocks are clamped by robots and the finished product is unloaded in boxes without human handling, have you?

- a P&P machine when installed properly and maintained can run 100s of boards sequential without stop. The last line I visited begin of this year had shifts of 10 persons personell monitoring 7 pcb lines and most they had to do is visually inspecting the output (more monitoring), putting new reels/feeders on the machine before the parts were running out (orange light). In the two hours I visited them, no red light occurred (full stop due to placing failure or obstruction or whatever) and the 7 lines produced over I believe 1500 boards. There were no persons with their hands over the ES button

The comparison to CNC is indeed imperfect. They are very different in so many ways. My comparison is just the relative 'fiddliness' of each one. Based on your comments, it appears your perception of the CNC process is limited. As for your example..... a full-time line making the same board 1500 times with a few $million in equipment (AOI, spare feeders, etc) is a different animal compared to a small business with an in-house line. If you visit the HAAS factory you will see about 1 operator per 10-15 CNC machines.

After 10 years owning/operating a CNC shop and the last few years getting up to speed in PCB assembly.....I can positively, without the slightest hesitation, say that the CNC process is a fraction of the learning curve and has a far higher process reliability overall. As an example....my first CNC machine arrived before I even knew how to load a tool in it. In fact, I did not even know how to turn it on. A week later, I was making parts that were ready for release. It was a long week.......but I was making parts. My capability in terms of complexity, precision, and efficiency rapidly improved from there. After about a year, the learning curve transitioned to a more nuanced level where I am splitting hairs over speed, surface finishes, process efficiency and such.

I learned CNC/machining from the ground up and it was not easy and it is not simple in any way. It is a constant challenge and a never-ending learning curve. PCB assembly, in my experience so far, has more moving parts, more variables, and requires far more inspections and handholding from end to end. PCBA requires me to manage hundreds of unique raw materials and deal with extreme precision distributed over hundreds of feeders. 2 years after getting my machine commissioned and 'ready' - I still struggle with each job in some way. There is always something that is not as good as it should be - and it only takes one problem to eat a lot of time.

In my CNC world - it is not without problems but they are much easier to see issues from a mile away. I have broken one tool in the last 8 months. One tool was broken during setup - not while running. The majority of the parts I make pass inspection on the first try. It never mis-picks a tool.

Perhaps if I spent $500k+ on all new SMT equipment - automated printer with inspection, modern P&P, feeders for every imaginable part, slick process control software, AOI, oven, and electrical test.......I would expect far fewer error rates and higher productivity (After a very long year of learning). That would also require a big investment in part management and storage along with purchasing and inventory control.

[Kjelt]

Yes my cnc experience is limited but I found it also a steap learning curve.

I am guessing here but probably because you have the CNC experience you think differently, if

After 10 years owning/operating a CNC shop

Was
"After 10 years owning/operating a SMT line"
It was the other way around, I dunno. 

Modern 3D cam software that generate code with tool simulation possibilities is miles away from the past.
The modern CNC machines that then get their G code directly fed from a PC with look ahead etc are completely different beasts from the 80s Haidenhahn machines.

I wonder how much easier a modern P&P machine would be compared to your DOS based oldie.

If the smt board shops would have so much problems with running series they would have a tough business case. They ask big $ yes but they get the job done repeatedly, consistent and in time.

[rx8pilot]

"After 10 years owning/operating a SMT line"
It was the other way around, I dunno. 

Well, if I normalized for experience.....after 2 years of CNC I had already moved on to 5 axis work and had 3 machines that I was able to keep busy with 1 person. The process was not easy or simple - but it was at least predictable with 99% accuracy. Machine-related issues almost never stopped the process. The machines I had at the time were considered 'entry level' by commercial standards. Almost every limitation was based on my personal set of skills and understanding. As time marched on....I learned to push the machines faster and faster. The setup times shrunk. Scrap parts nearly disappeared. I don't see equivalent progress in my P&P efforts. It seems that to rapidly improve the process - I need to have a team and perhaps all new equipment.

After 2 years of P&P, I really struggle to anticipate issues and the process is very hard for me to schedule. To be fair, my P&P equipment is fairly old - although it is in very good condition at the moment.
I have a Skype session in a couple of weeks with a sales engineer at Europlacer. They are going to walk me through the setup and run process so I can see for myself how much different/better it is to setup and tweak on a modern machine.

Assuming that goes well.....I will visit an actual line using the same machine. That miniature education will be very interesting! It is hard for me to understand how much of my limitations and issues are directly related to the specific machine I have. The claim is that it only takes 30 seconds to load a feeder - we will see. The claim is that it can run through some enormous number of picks of an 0201 part without a mis-pick - we will see. My guess is that it is true as long as everything is completely and totally perfect. I will be trying to learn, more than anything, is what goes wrong - how often - what causes it - and what the remedies are.

I would not want to be overly reliant on service technicians or remote sessions everytime a problem pops up.

[mikeselectricstuff]

The claim is that it only takes 30 seconds to load a feeder - we will see.

Bet that's for a new reel with full leader, not a cut tape

The claim is that it can run through some enormous number of picks of an 0201 part without a mis-pick - we will see. My guess is that it is true as long as everything is completely and totally perfect.

..and the machine gets serviced every 6 months under a maintainance contract...

[khs]

I never saw a full automated cnc line where aluminum blocks are clamped by robots and the finished product is unloaded in boxes without human handling, have you?

Yes. It was a combination of a lathe and a mill. Left side a (big) rod of aluminum came in and from the middle of the machine the finished parts came out. If I'm not wrong, it was in the range of 100K€

- a P&P machine when installed properly and maintained can run 100s of boards sequential without stop.

This is true. No doubt.
But I'm quite sure, the people of an assembly house have spent a lot of time until all pcb lines are working without problems. It's is a different business. If one the feeders in a line doesn't work, it costs a lot of $$$/€€€.

If one of my feeder don't work, I place the part manually. The additional working time (cost) is minimal.
This is the difference.

But back to the simplified comparison:

A simple cnc mill has
- one workpiece
- a xyzuw head with the milling tool.

A pnp has: 
-   1 main workpiece (the pc board)
- +10 additional workpieces (the parts)
- +10 feeders
- one or more  xyr(z) heads with placing tools (nozzles).

To run a cnc mill you have to adjust two parts: The workpiece and the tool.
To run a pnp you have to adjust, the pc-board, the heads and all feeders.

So even with a small pnp there is a factor of 10 more work to do (sure, very very simplified).

My comparison is just the relative 'fiddliness' of each one.

This gives an additional factor depending on part size (1/part size).

[rx8pilot]

The claim is that it only takes 30 seconds to load a feeder - we will see.

Bet that's for a new reel with full leader, not a cut tape

Yes. I asked about cut tape handling and the promises quickly departed.....

The claim is that it can run through some enormous number of picks of an 0201 part without a mis-pick - we will see. My guess is that it is true as long as everything is completely and totally perfect.

..and the machine gets serviced every 6 months under a maintainance contract...

Yes - this an interesting point on the business end. For a dedicated assembly house, it is a fairly straightforward calculation to weigh the benefits of an expensive preventative maintenance program. For a low-use, in-house system it probably does not make any sense. Curious if the manufacturers are willing to answer your phone calls if you are not on a maintenance program. Maybe they have timers on board that can drive the maintenance effort instead of a calendar.