Tronstol E1 experience

[lamabrew]

It's good to know that at least they provide support for such situations.
Did they change the broken parts?

yes, they sent replacement boards via DHL (two different shipments, first board did not fix the bad feeder problem)

It is working with 2 or 3 fiducials recognition?

It uses two. You also locate the board edge, as well as a what I would call a reference part.  That part of the setup is pretty easy.  For some things you just need to get close (i.e. the mark near the center of the camera) and you can hit an align button and the software figures it out.

How is repeatability? How many total boards did you made in one session

I have not had issues but I have not made many boards at once. 10 was the most.

Regarding feeder banks, is it possible to change them on-the-fly or PNP machide need to be fully shutdown before change.

For me, I find it's faster if doing more than one reel to pull the feeder bank out.  That requires shutting down the machine as the claim is my bank failure was because I unplugged it from the system while powered up.  Maybe someone with small hands would find loading reels in the feeder while on the machine easier.

When you take the feeder bank out you will need to realign it when you put it back in, again it's semi-automatic to do that.  You'll also need to get the new reel's feed/pick location into the machine.  Again this is now semi-automated.  The thing to watch out for is to not distrub any other reels, if you move the parts tape then you need to tell the machine where to feed/pick from again for that component. This is a tradeoff for any pin feed system vs. normal feeders.

A have a number of components (big caps, connectors) that I do as cut tape strips on the bed.  Also some ICs as for a short piece of cut tape attaching an extender for the peeler and getting it in to the machine is slower vs. putting it on the bed.  I need to make up some cut tape holders, for now I've been using plexiglass strips with double sided tape and it works well for me.  But I'm not doing big builds where swapping out stips like that would be annoying.

[MR]

No hotplugging on single feeders ... how cool is that..

[lamabrew]

SYNCHRONIZE FAILED!

Is a message you can get after updating a part (File->Material->Synchronize->Synchronize to library in E1-speak) and wanting to write the updated information back the library so that it will be what you want in the future.  These are things like Stack (pick location), speeds, offsets, etc.

Placing this here in case someone else has seen this and/or sees in this in the future and I can get an answer from Tronstol on what's wrong.

Going through each part to get it set up and the software just started giving this message.  There's no details of why it can't update, what's needeed to fix it, etc.  It's just broken. 

Sometimes the file:
/opt/easy/AppMain/bin/log.txt
has entries in it but it's blank now and there doesn't seem to be any other logging happening (nothing I can see in /var/log).

[PCBprototyping]

Seems like your SW version is not compatible with version of library.db file(some versions needed a separate upgrade file to add entries to db file as  Tronstol added some additional parameters) or you accidentaly left some parameter value empty(or O instead of 0), it happened to me before. Latest SW warns you if cell is empty.

[TJ232]

SYNCHRONIZE FAILED!

Is a message you can get after updating a part (File->Material->Synchronize->Synchronize to library in E1-speak) and wanting to write the updated information back the library so that it will be what you want in the future.  These are things like Stack (pick location), speeds, offsets, etc.

Placing this here in case someone else has seen this and/or sees in this in the future and I can get an answer from Tronstol on what's wrong.

Going through each part to get it set up and the software just started giving this message.  There's no details of why it can't update, what's needeed to fix it, etc.  It's just broken. 

Sometimes the file:
/opt/easy/AppMain/bin/log.txt
has entries in it but it's blank now and there doesn't seem to be any other logging happening (nothing I can see in /var/log).

This one doesn't sound good at all.
We were close to buy a Neoden YY1 machine but as it has ZERO software update availability it's more than a no, no for many, I'm definitely sure about that. I really don't understant their approach.
I really hope that at least for E1 they will offer a more decent way to do software/firmware upgrade to better approach these kind of issues.

[TJ232]

For me, I find it's faster if doing more than one reel to pull the feeder bank out.  That requires shutting down the machine as the claim is my bank failure was because I unplugged it from the system while powered up.  Maybe someone with small hands would find loading reels in the feeder while on the machine easier.

When you take the feeder bank out you will need to realign it when you put it back in, again it's semi-automatic to do that.  You'll also need to get the new reel's feed/pick location into the machine.  Again this is now semi-automated.  The thing to watch out for is to not distrub any other reels, if you move the parts tape then you need to tell the machine where to feed/pick from again for that component. This is a tradeoff for any pin feed system vs. normal feeders.

A have a number of components (big caps, connectors) that I do as cut tape strips on the bed.  Also some ICs as for a short piece of cut tape attaching an extender for the peeler and getting it in to the machine is slower vs. putting it on the bed.  I need to make up some cut tape holders, for now I've been using plexiglass strips with double sided tape and it works well for me.  But I'm not doing big builds where swapping out stips like that would be annoying.

A good idea very bad implemented.
To be able to change Feeders Bank on-the-fly can be one of the best selling points for their machine and can justify the increased price for it's class but it's not working as it should be. To shut down the machine, realign, etc, etc sound like more pain waiting you around the corner.

[lamabrew]

Seems like your SW version is not compatible with version of library.db file(some versions needed a separate upgrade file to add entries to db file as  Tronstol added some additional parameters) or you accidentaly left some parameter value empty(or O instead of 0), it happened to me before. Latest SW warns you if cell is empty.

Support at Tronstol sent me an update over the weekend - I was not expecting a reply so fast as it was Dragon Boat holiday. I will try it out tomorrow.  I suspect you are right about some "bad" data as it was working and then stopped while in the process of adding a boatload of new components.  Will report back once I try it out.

UPDATE:   The software update solved the problem.  I don't get any warnings about bad data, but I can update the library now.

[lamabrew]

To be able to change Feeders Bank on-the-fly can be one of the best selling points for their machine and can justify the increased price for it's class but it's not working as it should be. To shut down the machine, realign, etc, etc sound like more pain waiting you around the corner.

I have not run out of something while building as I'm only doing small prototype batches; replacing one reel isn't really a problem.  My comment was more about swapping out "a lot" of parts; it's defintely faster to take the feeder bank out. I do agree that it would be much better than powering down  to have some sort of program option to place the feeder bank in a safe state in terms of pausing things and unplugging.

I have some boards where I've got more part types than feeders.  Some of that I worked around by just placing cut tape in the tray area.  This is actually preferred when I'm already starting with very small cut tape - like when I have maybe a strip of 20 ICs and don't want to lose a few to getting them in to the feeders.  The machine very kindly puts parts back in the cut strip when you're adjusting/testing the pickup.

After speaking with another E1 user (they actually just bought a 2nd E1 and commented the new one is better than his 1+ year old one) he said purchasing some extra feeder banks is the best way to go in terms of change overs. Somewhere on DHL plane coming to me are 3 new feeder banks.  One I ordered with the "special" high feeders for handling SMT electrolytic caps, connectors, etc.    I am using BOMIST to manage parts and I put in to its inventory location field the feeder bank and number for parts that are on the machine. That gives me a good way to plan/report what goes where. What I have not tried to do is automate getting that info in to the E1.

I'll let you know how it goes with the multiple feeder banks, etc.  I feel like I still have a lot to learn about using the E1. 

On the Neoden YY - I have been peeking in on that thread and I agree something is not adding up in terms of software updates.

[TJ232]

Hi,

Did you manged to solve all the problems with feeders and software errors
Do you have any update regarding daily usage, how is running it thru a 10-50pcs batch for example.

It's anybody from inside EU using this type of machine and can share their own experience about?
It looks like the related website it's not working anymore: https://www.tronstolsmt.eu/

Thank you.

[lamabrew]

I could probably write several pages about what I've learned about the E1 in the past 6 months. I'll try and just give a short summary here:

• Get the latest software that use the camera to see what's in the nozzle changer/holder.  When things go wrong the machine will pound itself in to the ground...what turned out to be a nozzle with an oversized flange (I didn't know it at the time, this nozzle did not come from Tronstol) got jammed and caused the placement head to smash every nozzle holder, as well as bent up the head assembly again. There's apparently no error checking looking at what the motors are telling the gantry/head to do and what actually is reported back.  This also led to an earlier episode where a tape/feeder jam bent the needle and caused the pickup head to crash in to things.
  
• The new software has support for multiple feeder banks, but you still need to check all feeders as the tapes can move around taking them on/off the machine.  I'm also not sure it actually restores things quite right 100% of the time. However there's nothing in the library to tell you what feeder bank a part is on, you have to manage that outside of the machine. Which also means you need to split you PnP in to more than one file. If you have a 2 sided board then you definitely want to think through what parts go where to minimize feeder bank changes
• It is still annoying to have to power down the machine to swap feeder banks
• I have their old style stand and it really is too wobbly.  Lashing the stand to a support column made a huge difference as I think the parts were getting shaken off of the board.  They have a new stand, maybe this isn't an issue anymore
  
• Some ICs sometimes end up rotated a few degrees. QFNs and SOT-23x type parts. It seems consistent on certain parts but I have not figured out why. In part because I'm not building a lot of boards and so far it's easy to just give the component a small tap if needed.  If I was building 100s of boards I would go figure out why.
  
• I use the tray area a lot for cut tape as when you have just 5 boards to build it's not practical to get cut tape in to the feeders.  However the tray algorithm can't handle cut tape that isn't parallel to the machine horizontal axis.  This is annoying but not that difficult to deal with.  There could be some improvements to the UI for this.
  
• The auto align for the needle and pick work really well as long as the parts aren't on clear plastic tape.  This is another reason to get the newer software.
  
• The camera head still picks up things from the bottom of the head that cause the edge detection algorithm to go south.  Adjusting ROI has helped solve that, and I get the feeling the software maybe has had some improvements.  Occasionally I still have to cover the machine top (or turn out the lights). But it's gone from 90% failure to maybe 2% failure.

I've probably forgotten a lot of other things.

I've been dealing directly with the factory as the US distri dropped Tronstol.  They have been a great in answering questions and getting software updates out.  If I had a complaint it's that the software guide is way out of date and they've added a lot of new things that it's not clear what they do. 

For my needs - small 5 to 20 piece prototype batches every few weeks - it is working out and I don't have any regrets.  Of course I don't have anything to directly compare against. 

I was hoping a couple other users of the E-1 would find this thread and add their experiences/we could ask questions but that hasn't happened.  Not sure why.

[TJ232]

Thank you for your feedback, highly appreciated 

I was hoping that maybe we have also other E1 users that can share their thoughts about.

It's a pity that it was so much potential due to the better solution chosen for the part recognition and also the XY linear encoder closed-loop control.

[Jemma.zhang]

Hi，
You can contact Peter.Oelen,he'll give you the support in EU.This is his email: Peter.Oelen@tooltronics.nl

[Jemma.zhang]

Here is the document for the latest software for E1:https://www.tronstol.com/document-download/
You can download it from this link to update the software directly. Tronstol is constantly striving in the iterative process of E1.  We actively listen to user feedback and constantly upgrade the product.This link only for the SN code start from 1007 and 1008.If your machine's SN code is 1005 and 1006,you need email directly to ask the software.
Our R&D team is the startup team of Neoden. Tronstol focuses more on product quality and user experience.
E1 has many unique advantages in hardware and software:
For the hardware:
1.3D flying camera: laser camera flying shooting, greatly improving the accuracy and speed of desktop machines; It has three main features: 1. flying photography, 2. recognition of footprint with micrometer-level accuracy, 3. recognition of online nozzle size;
2. XY-axis linear encoder full closed-loop motion control to avoid component step loss, this patent is only available from Tronstol;
3. The machine body uses square steel frame to ensure its stability;
4.5-million-pixel high-precision IC camera, which can be selected as a large or small camera according to your IC size;
5. The detachable feeder bank greatly reduces the time you need to change materials when mounting different boards. For example, if you need to mount 2 different boards, one side of the feeder bank can install materials shared by 2 boards, while the other side of the feeder bank can install with different materials.  The three feeder banks can finish the placement of 2 boards. Because our software has a concept of material library, it greatly reduces the time for file editing. When you have more types of boards, the richer the information in the material library, and the shorter the time needed for marginal file editing...

For the software:
1. We continue to iterate and upgrade our software based on customer needs;
2. The software interface has been designed for industrial use, making it easy to operate;
3. Various functions, including 99 ICs and 99 bulk material placement settings;
4. Library function,the same material in the different PCB only need edit once;
5. Automatic correction of picking position;
6.Prototype with small quantity can mount without the file...

[danielm]

I was hoping a couple other users of the E-1 would find this thread and add their experiences/we could ask questions but that hasn't happened.  Not sure why.

Would you recommend buying Tronstol E1 at this point for prototyping use?

[lamabrew]

The answer to that simple question isn't clear cut for me because what I have is the "old" E1 model, last year they came out with the "new" E1 that upgraded the controller (from RPi to Intel) and electronics.  However that also means the "new" software won't run on the "old" platform.

I would assume the "new" E1 started where the "old" model was and has only improved things since.  I just don't have any experience with the "new" model that you would receive.

I will say I have my machine dialed in to where it's reliable for what I need, which is prototype and low volume (typically < 50) builds.  Mostly I can place a blank in it, hit run, and walk away. It took a while to get to that point but from talking with others this seems to be the case with any pick & place. There are some quirks but in a pragmatic sense I know how to work around those.   My complaint would be that the initial software was more in beta form and that soured my initial experience.  Things like the camera consistently getting the parts outline wrong or not enough error checking resulting in it trying to smash itself in to the ground.

Support from the factory, which I have not needed in a while, was good. I think that's really important regardless of how good the machine is supposed to be because these things are complex and stuff will go wrong.

If I had need, I would have no issue buying a "new" E1.

----------------------

Some other info: I bought a couple of extra feeder assemblies, this allows setting up parts without disturbing what's on the machine.  I sometimes do a run where I swap feeder assemblies part way through instead of redoing them all for a specific run.  Just have to pay attention to how long the pasted boards have been sitting out but for a few protos it works out ok. 

I have one bank that's my common parts and always in the machine, and the other bank becomes the job specific bank.  I use the tray area for big ICs, tall components and short cut tape where losing the first few components from the front of the tape wouldn't be desirable.

I use the stick on cover tape extender for cut tape that's going in the feeder; the distance from the pickup point to where the  tape is pulled is pretty big.  Likewise I wind longer cut tape (like 1000 0603 parts on paper tape) onto blank reels as otherwise it tends to curl up in the feeder area

[danielm]

Thanks a lot for extensive answer.

Have you ever encountered issues related to belt drive used on the machine (instead of ball screws)? Is this an issue for low volume production?

Could you swap RPi of your OG unit with Intel based PC to be able to use latest software?

Do you know of any other public online forum related to E1 experience?

I like the approach with one common feeder bank. I tend to re-use component types across all boards I design if possible. I think I will do it the same way.

Do you currently see any other alternative pnp at this price point? In another forum thread SMT220 was mentioned. It has ball screws but there is no nozzle changer.

[lamabrew]

I haven't noticed anything I would attribute to the drive system.  There's optical gratings on both axes for position measurement and it appears to me (with my limited knowledge of such systems) the resolution and control software works as advertised.

I asked Tronstrol about upgrading, and I'll summarize that: the controller changed so they have to design new driver boards (i.e. mapping the computer connections to the things that run all of the hardware) and as part of that redesign they also changed some of the electromechanical aspects of the machine.  With the need to replace so much purchasing a new one made more sense.  IMHO they should have called the new one the E2 or whatever to make it clear it was different from the E1, though I get that functionally and appearance wise it's pretty much the same machine.

As to other machines: I haven't followed things since making the purchase 2+ years back.  This category of machine is kind of an odd price point: below it you have the hobbyist machines that are totally cost driven at what appeared to me to be expense and ease of use (I know someone with one of those and he rarely uses it because it's such a PITA).

Next step up you get in to the cartridge feed system, which when you take the cost of the machine plus all of the feeders you will need puts the starting price point at about 2X the E1.  If you're a production house that needs some small machines for odd jobs then you probably wouldn't consider the E1 due to the change over times of a pin feed system, as well as you would probably want all your feeders to be of the same type.

My guess is that this leaves the E1 in an odd position in the market between people that make do with the cheapest ones and people that go with machines with cartridge feeders.

For me it's the right balance of features, ease of use, and cost.  I couldn't justify going to feeders, nor did I want to waste time coaxing a low end machine in to being useful.  From the lack of others on this forum it seems like there's not as many people in this category as I would have guessed.

I would not consider a machine that does not include a nozzle changer.  For a short time my nozzle changer was broken and I had to do it manually. Had to sit there and be ready for the change as otherwise throughput got really low.  I would look for something with "the most" feeders; a bit less of an issue for cartridge feeders but I keep wishing there was a way to attach a 3rd bank to the E1...