What is happening with JLCPB?

[IconicPCB]

is this a  lets piss off Murphy and see just how tightly we can close the process window and then bitch about a third party kind of situation?

[cgroen]

is this a  lets piss off Murphy and see just how tightly we can close the process window and then bitch about a third party kind of situation?

Was this a comment about my BGA layout in the post before yours (or to the thread in general) ?

[IconicPCB]

A general comment on expectations from a prototyping service.

You know... people give nothing for nothing and what JLCPCB are charging is essentially ... almost nothing.

[cgroen]

A general comment on expectations from a prototyping service.

You know... people give nothing for nothing and what JLCPCB are charging is essentially ... almost nothing.

Totally agree. On top of that, people get angry when they submit a multidesign with multiple boards in the same file and JLC asks for extra payment.

[Munyua44]

hello! after such troubles with JLPCB i shifted my production center to PCBWAY and am doing so well. Try it too and thank me later:
https://www.pcbway.com/project/

[cgroen]

hello! after such troubles with JLPCB i shifted my production center to PCBWAY and am doing so well. Try it too and thank me later:
https://www.pcbway.com/project/

What are the boards you have been doing that gave you troubles ?
The only reference I see to boards from you is in this thread (just wondering if your "Valentines gift card PCBs" is where the experience is, or if there is some more substantial evidence ?)
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/beginners/valentine-card/msg3946393/#msg3946393

[Yuto]

This notion of offering a coupon for a discount on the next order is bullshit.

Certainly a handful of pennies won't pay to reorder a damaged board.

if you don't like the quality, you should try your local board company for a year and then decide if *for you* the extra cost is worth it and if the local company is better...

I made my first pcb back in the 70's and since then I have had some experience, even prior to the existence of JLCPCB and I know the prices and quality that can be expected from many other manufacturers.

I feel compelled to repeat that this is not a case of problems after a first order (or after a bunch of orders). Here I am talking about a progressive deterioration in many aspects that has been noticed after many previous orders placed over the years in which, in practice, the few problems were minor. When you have been placing orders for years, you naturally end up thinking that you know what to expect, if suddenly overnight relevant changes appear that are persistently repeated with excessive and frequent annoyance, they surprise you and that is why I am talking about it now.

people get angry when they submit a multidesign with multiple boards in the same file and JLC asks for extra payment.

And they get angrier when there is no such multi-design and they have to waste time (sometimes days) proving it; but, most especially, when after agreeing to pay that extra cost, they receive the boards with inexplicable defects.

hello! after such troubles with JLPCB i shifted my production center to PCBWAY and am doing so well. Try it too and thank me later:
https://www.pcbway.com/project/

Thank you for sharing.

I also considered switching to another manufacturer, in fact depending on which project I use one or the other, but I prefer to share these problems and check their real capabilities for the improvement of these problems. At the end of the day I ask no more than that they deliver the next orders in the same conditions as years ago. If they could do it then, they should be able to do it now.

[jancumps]

hello! after such troubles with JLPCB i shifted my production center to PCBWAY and am doing so well. Try it too and thank me later:
https://www.pcbway.com/project/

In one post you say you are investigating the first CAD program to use. In this one you sound like a manufacturing decision maker giving expert opinion on a pcb house (and dissing another).
Is this real?

[rox77]

(previous message)

day 32?: as you know from my previous updates on this blog, one of the boards in my order went wrong, had to be remade, went wrong again and so on up to 3 times. then it was shipped but as the delivery date had passed i checked the tracking information and, as i noticed that it had been "on hold" in the same chinese city where it was picked up for more than a week. i checked with jlcpcb support and they sent me this message: "Due to the corona , the parcel are pending in Shenzhen now . The government do not allow to arrange shipment temporary.Sorry for that . Once resume, we will arrange it for you priority.Hope your kindly understanding ."

i know they are not to blame for whatever is happening with the corona but i think that if the board had been done right the first time, i wouldn't be in this situation

[Yuto]

they sent me this message: "Due to the corona , the parcel are pending in Shenzhen now . The government do not allow to arrange shipment temporary.Sorry for that . Once resume, we will arrange it for you priority.Hope your kindly understanding ."

Sounds very strange. My old and new orders from China are being delivered as usual. So far I have not noticed even the slightest delay, nor has any seller or manufacturer sent me a notification about that issue.

[Cerebus]

It doesn't sound strange to me. The omicron variant has reached China and the authorities are responding with their usual all encompassing, some might say excessive, zeal, especially in view of the pending Winter Olympics.

A headline and lede from 10th January:

Omicron Scare: China Locks Down Tianjin After New Variant Outbreak Near Olympics Site
The Chinese government instated sweeping measures, halting commute, and suspending public transit including all the buses and trains from Tianjin to Beijing

and from the 13th:

China faces omicron test weeks ahead of Beijing Olympics

Just weeks before the Winter Olympics, China is battling multiple COVID-19 outbreaks in half a dozen cities with the one closest to Beijing driven by the highly transmissible omicron variant
...
Instead, it has sealed off several residential communities and universities, canceled almost all flights, suspended high speed train service and closed highways. People leaving the city are required to present negative COVID-19 tests and receive special permission.
...
Elsewhere, in Xi'an to the west and several cities in Henan province, the measures are far more onerous, leading to complaints that people sequestered in their apartments were running out of food.

And

The southern Chinese tech hub of Shenzhen is bracing for more Covid-19 cases after two infections from an unknown source were discovered during routine screening.
...
Shenzhen residents have been told not to leave the city unless necessary. Those wishing to leave must submit a negative Covid-19 test report from swabs taken within 48 hours of departure.
Health authorities in Zhuhai, another Guangdong city, said residents needed to report any travel history to Shenzhen since December 24.
The emergence of cases in Shenzhen is likely to complicate the reopening of its border with Hong Kong, which is itself battling a fast-growing cluster of locally transmitted Omicron cases.

Still, let's not let the facts get in the way of a good argument.

[rox77]

it does sound strange to me too, it is clear that this virus is extraordinarily selective. counting only since january 1st i have logged on to aliexpress four times to order stuff, last time was two days ago, on january 16th, about 14 orders in total. they all come from china mainland, almost all of them from shenzhen, yesterday i received the first one, today the second one and looking at the tracking information i check that of the first batches, 3 have already reached my country, many others have successfully went through customs in china and were handled to the airline, and the later ones are moving from sellers to distribution centers and airports normally

they sent me this message: "Due to the corona , the parcel are pending in Shenzhen now . The government do not allow to arrange shipment temporary.Sorry for that . Once resume, we will arrange it for you priority.Hope your kindly understanding ."

Sounds very strange. My old and new orders from China are being delivered as usual. So far I have not noticed even the slightest delay, nor has any seller or manufacturer sent me a notification about that issue.

[nigelwright7557]

This is the usual  case of someone wanting top quality items but are not prepared to pay for it.
They want a Rolls Royce for Ford money.

In the UK I got a quote of £220 for some pcb's.
The same order from JLCPCB was £50 and that included p+p from China.

For that I got perfectly usable PCB's.

In around 200 orders  I have had one bad pcb which they told me about but I didnt expect it to be sent in with my order !
In 10 years of designing PCB's for me no one beats JLCPCB on price.

The OP to me just sounds like sour grapes.

[Yuto]

it does sound strange to me too, it is clear that this virus is extraordinarily selective. counting only since january 1st i have logged on to aliexpress four times to order stuff, last time was two days ago, on january 16th, about 14 orders in total. they all come from china mainland, almost all of them from shenzhen, yesterday i received the first one, today the second one and looking at the tracking information i check that of the first batches, 3 have already reached my country, many others have successfully went through customs in china and were handled to the airline, and the later ones are moving from sellers to distribution centers and airports normally

Obviously these are very selective actions, perhaps the Chinese government has quarantined only shipments from this company? It is possible and they may have their reasons but that is too local information that is not easy for us to access. Perhaps JLCPCB can clarify or confirm this.

This is the usual  case of someone wanting top quality items but are not prepared to pay for it.
They want a Rolls Royce for Ford money.

But this is not that usual case, I'm sorry but I have to repeat that this is not a case of problems after a first order (or after a bunch of orders). Here I am talking about a progressive deterioration in many aspects that has been noticed after many previous orders placed over the years in which, in practice, the few problems were minor. When you have been placing orders for years, you naturally end up thinking that you know what to expect, if suddenly overnight relevant changes appear that are persistently repeated with excessive and frequent annoyance, they surprise you and that is why I am talking about it now.

In this thread alone there are enough cases, cases with errors that have been acknowledged by JLCPCB, with quotes from the emails, that objectively show that something is going on. But hey, it's not such a big drama, they just have to correct the source of the problems and get the same level of service they had before 2021. We know that errors are always going to happen, understandably, but it makes a huge difference when the frequency of these is way above what is reasonable.

[cgroen]

So, a few (less than 10 ?) has complained to you and in this thread of how many customers, 20.000 (I know they claim 800.000 but still...) ?

I know I'm repeating my own post, but I can't help it.....

Here we go again....
I have just received my order number 240 from JLC (95% 4 layer, the rest 2 layer). This 240th order in fact had a problem (se later on).
I started using JLC in september 2017.
Last year (2021) I had a total of 78 orders with them.

Not a SINGLE one of these 240 orders where at fault (of course I have had the "sorry sir, one of your boards are defect, would you like us to redo the order or discount you the one board?" questions (less than 5 in total), but the boards I have received has all been perfect.

I'm not saying that the silkscreen could not be "more perfect", but for the price you pay, they are more than perfect.

As I wrote, the 240th order I "received" was in error (this is first time since I started using JLC). I received "my boards" this monday, only problem was that the boards were not mine! Somehow they got swopped in shipping at JLC (the paper slip with my order number was correct, it was "just" the boards them self that was wrong. The unlucky thing was that the boards I got did not have the usual JLC internal order number on it, so I could not pass that on. Within a couple of days, JLCPCB chased down the customer that had gotten my boards (he was in Germany), I called him and we shipped each others board to the rightful owners
JLCPCB of course offered to pay for our shipping (to be expected), I'm receiving my boards in a couple of hours.

This is how my dealings with JLC has been so far.
(and I have used European producers in the past for prototypes so I do VERY well know what the cost is (been in the game for 35+ years now) !)

So, maybe, just maybe, it is very seldom that anything is wrong ? I have for sure seen nothing that implies what you are saying, that JLC should have "deteriorated" over the last year. And it is not so that I have not pushed against their limits/capabilities.

Maybe its just better for you to move to one of the many top-notch PCB producers out there, maybe your quality needs are just so much higher than the rest of their customers ?

[sleemanj]

it does sound strange to me too, it is clear that this virus is extraordinarily selective. counting only since january 1st i have logged on to aliexpress four times to order stuff, last time was two days ago, on january 16th, about 14 orders in total. they all come from china mainland, almost all of them from shenzhen, yesterday i received the first one

My JLC DHL shipments go through Hong Kong, I expect they are driven across the border.

My JLC YunExpress shipments go straight out of Dongguan

I havn't done a JLC one for a while, but I do know that Mainland DHL for one of my other suppliers is off the table for the last few weeks, they stopped accepting shipments.

[rox77]

(previous message)

day 34?: the order is still on hold at the carrier's facility in shenzhen. i got a new message from jlcpcb offering a discount coupon for the delay. at the moment i am not placing new orders with jlcpcb because i assume they would be on hold.

meanwhile today another aliexpress package ordered after january 1st was delivered and according to the tracking information, the ones that a few days ago were handled to the airline are already flying to the destination country while the rest are moving through different sorting centers without any incident. i am still waiting expectantly to see if any of the orders i placed on january 16th are leaving china.

[RockPhish3]

From the most casual check of the situation, the assumed sinister forces at work intercepting and delaying specific JLCPCB customer orders:

https://www.pcbway.com/blog/News/Delay_Information_About_DHL_Service_29af186d.html

Dear Customer,

Latest update 2022/1/20 GMT+8: Personnel at the port began to resume work one after another last night. For the orders from 7th to 11th, there were direct flights from Europe and America in the early morning of 21st, and it is expected that they will be cleaned up before next Monday.

Latest update 2022/1/17 GMT+8: DHL logistics delivery has returned to normal, but the logistics speed may be slower than usual.

Latest update 2022/1/14 GMT+8: DHL logistics delivery will gradually return to normal, but the orders delivered from January 7 to January 11 are stranded in DHL Shenzhen Port Center for disinfection, it will take a few more days to leave.

Latest Update 2022/1/12 GMT+8: DHL pick-up and delivery service will delay for several days due to the positive cases screening of the epidemic at the DHL Shenzhen Port Center.

-------------------------------

[Yuto]

meanwhile today another aliexpress package ordered after january 1st was delivered and according to the tracking information, the ones that a few days ago were handled to the airline are already flying to the destination country while the rest are moving through different sorting centers without any incident. i am still waiting expectantly to see if any of the orders i placed on january 16th are leaving china.

I guess you will receive any of these orders soon, were any of them shipped by DHL?

[rox77]

(previous message)

day 36 (since first delivery) / 45 (since payment): i received a new message from jlcpcb notifying me that the shipment was back in transit

today i received the last order from aliexpress of all the orders i placed between the 1st and 11th of january, there has not been even the slightest delay.

no, none of them has been shipped by dhl. although it is an option it is excessively expensive to ship products to my country, $50 or $60 for shipments that with other carriers cost me between $4 and $6, or free, for the same delivery time. in addition, upon delivery dhl charge $22.7 for customs handling, customs fees aside while the national postal operator charges $5.7 for the same service.

meanwhile today another aliexpress package ordered after january 1st was delivered and according to the tracking information, the ones that a few days ago were handled to the airline are already flying to the destination country while the rest are moving through different sorting centers without any incident. i am still waiting expectantly to see if any of the orders i placed on january 16th are leaving china.

I guess you will receive any of these orders soon, were any of them shipped by DHL?

[chickenHeadKnob]

In December last year I put in an order and selected DHL economy or whatever the lower cost option is. JLC came back and said DHL doesn't serve my postal code. My house is about 200 meters past the boundary of the next postal code so I suggested they try that code and the package shipped successfully. Strange. Never had that problem before.
No complaints with JLCPCB though.

[JLCPCB Official]

day 36 (since first delivery) / 45 (since payment): i received a new message from jlcpcb notifying me that the shipment was back in transit

today i received the last order from aliexpress of all the orders i placed between the 1st and 11th of january, there has not been even the slightest delay.

no, none of them has been shipped by dhl. although it is an option it is excessively expensive to ship products to my country, $50 or $60 for shipments that with other carriers cost me between $4 and $6, or free, for the same delivery time. in addition, upon delivery dhl charge $22.7 for customs handling, customs fees aside while the national postal operator charges $5.7 for the same service.

meanwhile today another aliexpress package ordered after january 1st was delivered and according to the tracking information, the ones that a few days ago were handled to the airline are already flying to the destination country while the rest are moving through different sorting centers without any incident. i am still waiting expectantly to see if any of the orders i placed on january 16th are leaving china.

I guess you will receive any of these orders soon, were any of them shipped by DHL?

Hello sir. JLCPCB has been following your order situation for a long time and hopes to assist you with your questions as soon as possible.
     As a PCB manufacturer, we always hope to provide customers with fast and high-quality PCBs. You said that you placed many orders on JLCPCB, so you may also like our service, right?  We really appreciate your trust.
    According to the checks, again and again, your order was unblocked yesterday. The reason is the same as what our customer support explained to you all the time. It is because the government controls the shipment flow and it cannot be shipped smoothly. This kind of situation rarely occurs, but we are so sorry still.
    For every special case, JLCPCB gives true answers to customers honestly and has also worked hard to communicate with related logistics companies and customs departments, so as not to cause customers trouble. We value every customer experience important please trust that we have the heart to solve it and are always here to assist customers.

[Harjit]

@cgroen - can you post a close up of the "BGA" just under C13 and share the ball pitch, pad size, silk screen opening, etc.?

Also, your opinion of how it turned out and if soldering worked fine or not?

Thank you.

The pitch of the small BGA (a buck/boost from Maxim) is 0.4 mm. The pads on the PCB is 0.25 mm in diameter
The soldermask expansion around the pads are 0.05 mm, this is not optimized in any way yet, this might change when going into production, but works fine with my "manual prototype assembly" here.
The boards so far have worked perfectly when done by JLC, the prototypes I solder myself (stencil/hot plate) and so far has been flawless. Final production will be with a subcontractor (they do not use JLCPCB but their own "preferred" PCB house).

@cgroen Thank you. Looks like JLCPCB removed the soldermask inside the footprint. I had hoped to at least put down some soldermask "dots" between the pads but I don't know if they will keep that or not.

What is your stencil thickness and opening?

If you don't mind, can you share your part number? I'd like to compare the ball size with what I'm planning.

Thanks!

[DiyHax]

Hi folks, I have been ordering at JLCPCB for a couple of years. They have always been very supportive.  It doesn't make sense to blame them, which trouble caused by external problems like Corona.  I have experience with other Chinese PCB companies too. Trust me, JLCPCB has been the best one for me. About shipment and delivery, I found JLCPCB most convenient because they offer multiple shipping methods which you won’t find in most other company websites. Certainly, we can’t blame JLCPCB for shipment held or delayed by Customs due to Corona. It’s not their fault, I believe. Guys, share my last orders from JLCPCB

[cgroen]

@cgroen - can you post a close up of the "BGA" just under C13 and share the ball pitch, pad size, silk screen opening, etc.?

Also, your opinion of how it turned out and if soldering worked fine or not?

Thank you.

The pitch of the small BGA (a buck/boost from Maxim) is 0.4 mm. The pads on the PCB is 0.25 mm in diameter
The soldermask expansion around the pads are 0.05 mm, this is not optimized in any way yet, this might change when going into production, but works fine with my "manual prototype assembly" here.
The boards so far have worked perfectly when done by JLC, the prototypes I solder myself (stencil/hot plate) and so far has been flawless. Final production will be with a subcontractor (they do not use JLCPCB but their own "preferred" PCB house).

@cgroen Thank you. Looks like JLCPCB removed the soldermask inside the footprint. I had hoped to at least put down some soldermask "dots" between the pads but I don't know if they will keep that or not.

What is your stencil thickness and opening?

If you don't mind, can you share your part number? I'd like to compare the ball size with what I'm planning.

Thanks!

Harjit,
the paste opening for the BGA is 0.25 mm (might end up being tuned for production, for the prototypes it worked fine), the part is a Maxim MAX77839 (buck/boost)
The stencil is just JLC's "standard" type, I get them electro polished (not sure that is even needed in my case, but why not....)
Picture attached of the actual PCB