Author Topic: HWGC P&P machines - Documentation, Discussion and Info  (Read 97907 times)

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Offline JacksterTopic starter

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HWGC P&P machines - Documentation, Discussion and Info
« on: April 26, 2021, 09:59:28 pm »
This is a topic for the documentation and discussion on HWGC P&P machines.
These machines are made by a single company but are rebadged and sold by resellers to the outside of China market.
I have documented the spec of the machines along with pricing info below.
Links are more up-to-date than screenshots.

Discord Server
https://discord.gg/p47Ak28EsA

Spec and machine price

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1o59ew0r3EL1JKFsNjkMwd5DyvhckeIeWCILkPt-afos/edit?usp=drivesdk

Documentation and other files
https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1V7BzhfgAOhGsFFIn-jTZzGSy_frviEoD?usp=sharing

Official Website/Store
http://www.smthw.net/lang/en
https://zghwgc.en.alibaba.com/



The AliExpress re-sellers listed below all give out free feeders for each machine.
YX AliExpress listing with free to port shipping
SMT880-X    https://s.click.aliexpress.com/e/_AZTf2G
SMT880-S    https://s.click.aliexpress.com/e/_AfZiKY
SMT880       https://s.click.aliexpress.com/e/_ACmVf2
SMT660 https://s.click.aliexpress.com/e/_A9WhY4
SMT550 https://s.click.aliexpress.com/e/_AtQIac
SMT460S https://s.click.aliexpress.com/e/_AMOHrS
SMT380 https://s.click.aliexpress.com/e/_99jDnC

HUAWEIGUOCHUANG SMT AliExpress listing with free shipping
HW-DSQ800-120F https://s.click.aliexpress.com/e/_AfQ41W
HW-T8SG-80F       https://s.click.aliexpress.com/e/_AVBle4
HW-T6SG-64F       https://s.click.aliexpress.com/e/_9yuZMu
HW-T4SG-50F       https://s.click.aliexpress.com/e/_AlPooy


YX accessories:
Stencil Printer https://s.click.aliexpress.com/e/_AsXYNK
Semi-automatic Stencil Printer https://s.click.aliexpress.com/e/_AWjTWg
Reflow Oven https://s.click.aliexpress.com/e/_A3AASU

HUAWEIGUOCHUANG SMT accessories:
Stencil Printer 240*300MM https://s.click.aliexpress.com/e/_AY2ITa
Stencil Printer 320*440MM https://s.click.aliexpress.com/e/_99TML2
Stencil Printer 420*600MM https://s.click.aliexpress.com/e/_AEioNO
Semi-automatic Stencil Printer https://s.click.aliexpress.com/e/_9voazI
Reflow Oven 6 zone 1M   https://s.click.aliexpress.com/e/_9hhmvW
Reflow Oven 12 zone 2M https://s.click.aliexpress.com/e/_AL9YuM

Alibaba resellers
Beijing Huawei Silkroad Electronic Technology Co. https://zghwgc.en.alibaba.com/
Wenzhou Yingxing Technology Co. https://wzyxing.en.alibaba.com/

Accessories
Yamaha Feeder Trolly https://s.click.aliexpress.com/e/_AlPG00
JUKI nozzles https://s.click.aliexpress.com/e/_AtpCLW
Solder Paste Mixer https://s.click.aliexpress.com/e/_AboEMC


Feeders
The pre-2021 models use the classic Yamaha CL system. They are plentiful and easy to get a hold of.
I was able to pick up around 140 feeders, granted mostly 8mm, for around $3,900. eBay is great for this sort of thing.

The 8mm feeder comes in 3 types;
-2mm pitch 0201 High precision
-2mm pitch 0402 Normal precision
-4mm pitch Standard precision 0603 and up


The newer machines use NXT electric feeders. Apparently can be had for around the same price as Yamaha CL electrics?

Both Beijing Huawei and YX both offer around 40 pneumatic and 15 electric feeders free with their pre-2021 machines on Alibaba and sell feeders at the following prices;
8mm   $65
12mm $80
16mm $80
24mm $250
32mm $450
44mm $580

Neoden feeders start at $50.


Software
Thanks to a user on this forum for uploading a copy of the software. We now all have access to it to see what it is like.
https://github.com/HWGC-P-P/

I have created a Wiki of sorts to document the hardware and software findings.
https://github.com/HWGC-P-P/Wiki/blob/main/README.md




[Original post]
Seen a couple people on this forum who own YX P&P machines and was wondering if anyone else had it or has the smaller models and can provide feedback?
Just received a quote for an SMT880 and it is a good price with all the free feeders they are including right now.

Not looking to get it tomorrow but hopefully in a couple months time.

My main issue with these sorts of machines is the user interface. Most of the time the actual build of the machine is fine and does what it needs to do but the software lets it down.

How has the SMT880 and SMT660 software been?
What is YX's support like?
If you have had a hardware issue, what was it and how did they deal with it in terms of warranty?


I have attached some documents about the SMT880. Hopefully, we can share some more info about this machine?
https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1V7BzhfgAOhGsFFIn-jTZzGSy_frviEoD?usp=sharing

Offline JMG

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Re: YX SMT660 SMT880 P&P machines
« Reply #1 on: April 27, 2021, 12:26:51 am »
I am in the process of buying an SMT550 right now. It has not been going well. The ad said 50 feeders,but they are only sending 15 and I had to buy 15 more at near $1000. I was charged $60 for it to be 110V too.

I'll let you know how it goes from here.
 

Offline Reckless

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Re: YX SMT660 SMT880 P&P machines
« Reply #2 on: May 07, 2021, 09:08:00 am »
I almost pulled the trigger on one a few years ago.  It was running same price as a used name brand machine so I opted for established brand.  I like to believe china will sort out software issues someday but I keep reminding myself thats wishful thinking.  Name brand units are hard to learn on but once you learn the ideosynchracies they are super reliable.  Somehow I had zero trust that the SMT660 would work 1-2 years later.   
 

Offline JMG

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Re: YX SMT660 SMT880 P&P machines
« Reply #3 on: May 07, 2021, 07:51:16 pm »
You cant touch a decent condition name brand machine with all the options and features these machines have for near the same price. My personal choices where this or a 14 year old Samsung for double the price. A big reason I went with the SMT550 was that there are users on this forum that have had decent luck with the brand and say that customer support is not bad. If it lasts 3 years, I'm good, and ~$9K over that time isnt bad. It'll pay for itself in less than a year and I'll need something far more significant then if my company keeps growing at this rate.

Its on a boat, should be in LA in about 2 weeks, then on to Chicago, eta 29th May. Probably trailer it back 1st week of June.
 

Offline Reckless

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Re: YX SMT660 SMT880 P&P machines
« Reply #4 on: May 08, 2021, 09:17:38 am »
All of my machines have been well under $9k with feeders, tons of spares and I have had 20+ pick place machines in last 2.5 years.  Jukis, samsungs, universals, assembleon/yamaha, fuji.  If you are anywhere near chicago I'd love to stop by to see when you get her up and running.  I want to fall in love with these chinese machines but hard to appreciate once you have gotten used to super industrial machines.  We prefer chip shooters as we need 35k+ cph.
 

Offline JMG

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Re: YX SMT660 SMT880 P&P machines
« Reply #5 on: May 13, 2021, 11:38:05 am »
I'm about a 4 hour drive from Chicago, north of Muskegon, MI.
I wanted a machine with vision, 0402, 144 pin+ LQFP .5mm pitch capabilities and something running on 110V or 220V, and small enough to fit through a standard doorway. Im still a tiny company and I couldn't afford a decent newer name brand machine and I do not have 3 phase. Based on reviews, this seemed like a good bet.

Further updates: I've since asked for an operators manual, tech info, a link to software, anything so I can start learning this machine before it gets here, feeder part numbers and nozzle types available. The literal, word for word reply was "no" and when I pressed again the reply word for word was:

"Hi
 
We test and install the machine before shipping
 
You can check with the user manual when you get the machine
 
Any more problem you can contact with me online such as the whatsapp and skype"


I have zero confidence now and completely regret buying this machine, wishing I'd have bought the Samsung 45 neo.
 

Offline JanL

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Re: YX SMT660 SMT880 P&P machines
« Reply #6 on: May 13, 2021, 12:29:41 pm »
Right now I am in progress of buying this machine too. You can find the nozzle types in your PI or their product sites on Aliba, Aliexpress ... :502*2,503*3,504*4,505*2,506*1 (502 Nozzles for 0402, 503 Nozzle for 0603 n 0805, 504 Nozzle for 0805 n 1206, 505 Nozzle for 3535 led)
The manual you provided for the SMT880 is the same for the SMT550. You won't get more. There are some videos on youtube about the workflow. It doesn't matter wether you look for 550, 660 or 880, it is all the same.
Besides: why didn't you check before buying?
Please let me know about your experiences with the machine.
 

Offline Mangozac

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Re: YX SMT660 SMT880 P&P machines
« Reply #7 on: May 13, 2021, 10:14:53 pm »
If I were in the USA I would do exactly as Reckless says and pick up a used brand name machine. It's definitely possible in the price range he suggests.

But I'm not in the USA so I went with a Kayo 1706 (kind of the equivalent of these SMTXX0 machines). It has some quirks but I'm overall very pleased. Support from Kayo has been fantastic, even providing us with software updates (minor bug fixes but more importantly some significant functional upgrades). For more relevance to this discussion they had no problem providing manuals prior to delivery!

All these Chinese machines are the same type of configuration: Juki nozzles and Yamaha CL feeders.
 

Offline Proto

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Re: YX SMT660 SMT880 P&P machines
« Reply #8 on: May 18, 2021, 08:59:50 pm »
Hi Jack,
Sorry for the late reply.

For the money, the 550/660/880 class machines are a sweet spot for PNP value and midrange capability.  The best parts are the linear (X-Y) motion platform which is a magnificent set of CNC machined parts, ballscrews, linear guides and Panasonic servo motors and servo drive electronics. You can go to the Panasonic site and get more information than you will ever need on the drive system alone.  The PC, monitor, keyboard and mouse are serviceable though I replaced the 2nd and 3rd items.  I will mention that the PC comes with a small SSD which I wanted to clone until I got into WIN 7 OS and found too many Chinese language issues to work work through.  The machine driver application and UI are more than I expected and become increasingly familiar with each job setup.

On the other hand, the AC wiring and grounding is serviceable but represents a below grade implementation.  Early failures in the nozzle fast camera array (FASTCAM) could be traced to haphazard grounding (OK, I disconnected some cameras for no good reason).  Fortunately, these were easy to fix.

I did not involve YX except to request new camera modules as the video outputs were sometimes damaged when the cables were disconnected and reconnected to the PC capture board.  The PC and AC input grounds were dependent on being made through chassis paint and that didn't cut it for me (see my solution in the list of modes below).  In addition, the PC and monitor 220V wiring used a taped manual splice.  I replaced this with a PDU - Power Distribution Unit which is an elegant name for a power strip.  I installed one on each side of the machine and made sure the PC, monitor and mains input have been properly grounded to bare metal.

So far, this review is a mixed bag but you would be wrong to think I don't like the 660,  In a few words, it's been AMAZING!!!

I have no prior experience in PNP and own a startup about to release its first range of products.  I would rate the software, minus very few untranslated items as reasonable, fairly intuitive, discoverable, yet feature complete for what I know.  Basically, you can figure out what is meant by the English translations in most cases and can try things.  The camera system calibration parameters for object recognition were a little trouble for me.  I spent some quality time watching one of YX's longer (and annotated) videos on YouTube and made some usage notes before jumping in.
 
Job set up followed the YouTube video closely.  Though not explained there, a PNP list for a single board can be expanded to a panel by selecting board level fiducials on corner images in the panel at which point it can compute a panel PNP list automatically.  By trial, I also learned that a change to the single entered board image will propagate to the other images when you press a button in the UI.  So, as you correct part rotations and other setup issues, you do it for one board in the panel and the 660 SW propagates the change to the other boards.  It even has provision for panels with alternate board images rotated 180 degrees, something I haven't tried yet even though I have such a panel.  A button under production settings called "IS MOUNT" allows you to decide which parts to mount, feeders to use and panel images to populate and elsewhere you can enable feeders and nozzles globally.  You store components from a job to a library and can copy feeder and mount settings from one job to another.

My first board was a 2 image panel with the second image rotated 180 degrees.  However, I used Cadence Panel Editor to produce a panel-level PNP list.  The components on this panel were 1206 passives and SOIC integrated circuits = easy as pie. 

My next job was a 12 image panel of opto boards with 20 leds in a pattern on each board which could have made misalignment very apparent and presentation unsatisfactory.  The leds are 0603 parts which have a molded lens that is smaller than the 0603 substrate and slightly larger than 0402 passives so it was good to see the behavior of the 660 with these small profile parts.  What mistakes were made in placement by the machine were traced to leds bouncing in the feeder such that they were not laying flat for pickup.  Nonetheless, the vacuum nozzles lifted the LEDs, took them to the FASTCAM array and on to the panel where there were placement errors.  The 660 has a screen that presents 6 static images from the FASTCAM array so you can observe part alignment for each pickup cycle.  Then I noticed a setup parameter that allows you to specify the percent deviation in X-Y size as an accept/reject criteria.  With this input, any edge-grab led pickups were rejected and sent to a predefined throw (think discard) area.  After that 0603 LEDs were laid down with great precision.  You really don't want to rework 0603 or 0402 leds!

Overall I did the following modifications to the SMT660:

1. Replaced the supplied 17" monitor with a 19" with the same resolution
2. Machined an offset block to shift the monitor mount in 3 directions due to its new size and clearance requirements
3. Machined the supplied steel monitor tilt mount due to slight mis-alignment of the 4 mounting holes as delivered
4. Replaced the supplied pressure regulator / dryer with a slightly larger but similar assembly
5. Added a digital pressure sensor  to the regulator / dryer output and fed this to what I call a PSI hub and two 4-20mA digital meters, one front and one back near the air inlet
6. Replaced the cap screws attaching each of the 6 doors around the SMT660 with knob-type thumbscrews for quick and easy access to the insides.
7. Replaced mains wiring up the ON/OFF switch with jacketed 3-conductor power cord instead of the 2-conductor insulated but not jacketed wiring that was used.  Provided secure grounding for the AC inlet to the bare chassis.
8. Added a power distribution strip on each side of the SMT660 .  One provides power to the PC, monitor, PSI hub and the left side power distribution strip.  The left side power distribution strip only supplies main power now but will eventually provide power for the Panasonic X and Y linear drive modules and the 24 and 36 volt switching regulators.  These last items are wired with 2-conductor unjacketed mains wiring which I think should at least be double insulated

If I had to do it over again, I would get the SMT880 for the 3-part conveyor system and extra heads.  My oven is a ZBRF660 that I bought from YX as well, though it is sourced from Wezhou Zhengbang.  It is floor-standing, with a conveyor table from Neoden sitting in between it and the 660 for inspection, where the board will automatically stop for placement examination and then proceed to the ZBRF630 for reflow.  I bought the ZBRF630 because it has better build quality than the standard 960/961 reflow ovens, a really nice touchscreen, elevated temperature capability (400C that I probably won't ever use) and robust insulation in the outer cover which stays cold during operation.  In general, you should negotiate for feeders at no charge before buying any more that you need.  In the past month, I purchased 30 8mm x2 mm  and 8mm x 4mm from Neoden.  What I like about Neoden (through ebay) is the pricing is already fair but still negotiable and shipping is reasonable and fast (4-5 days from China). 

The SMT660 and ZBRF630 were purchased through Alibaba using that company's buyer protection program.  In doing so, PayPal funds an Alibaba escrow account for which the buyer is in charge of releasing the money after receiving the equipment and verifying the condition.  The only caveat is the protection is for a fixed period and you may have to extend it or Alibaba will release payment automatically and possibly before you receive the item in the case of cheaper but more lengthy ocean shipment.

My sole contact at YX is Jim Jiang.  Jim always replies to my emails in an hour or less!  He and I go at each other on product selection, pricing, features and shipment terms but always end up making a deal.  When I had camera problems, he requested I make a WhatsApp video demonstrating the problem and testing I had performed.  Then he sent the part(s) with a 2-3 day delivery where I paid for shipment only, during the warranty period.  Currently, I am recovering from a multiple head crash into a feeder in the tape load state - don't ever do this - and installing at least 2 new nozzle rotation stepper motors as I delve more deeply in 0402 part assembly.

Hope this helps,
Proto
« Last Edit: May 18, 2021, 10:34:51 pm by Proto »
 
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Offline Proto

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Re: YX SMT660 SMT880 P&P machines
« Reply #9 on: May 18, 2021, 09:37:56 pm »
Do not be discouraged.

The 110V mod is likely to be a 110/220V, 3KVA step-up transformer, a commercial, nicely packaged toroidal unit.  That's what I got and used until I ran a direct line from my AC panel.  The Panasonic drive electronics and servo motors come in 120 and 240 volt versions.  The 660 uses the higher voltage and perhaps the 3 top models all do it for inventory reasons.  There are two switching power supplies and they like the PC and monitor can take either voltage although they are not auto switching.

Fifteen feeders is great to be thrown in for a 550.  I got 15 for a 660 and was offered 25 for an 880.   In the end, when  stuffed boards come out of the machine its all worth it.

Are you dealing with Jim Jiang at YX? 
 
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Offline 48X24X48X

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Re: YX SMT660 SMT880 P&P machines
« Reply #10 on: May 19, 2021, 12:34:24 am »
Quote
My next job was a 12 image panel of opto boards with 20 leds in a pattern on each board which could have made misalignment very apparent and presentation unsatisfactory.  The leds are 0603 parts which have a molded lens that is smaller than the 0603 substrate and slightly larger than 0402 passives so it was good to see the behavior of the 660 with these small profile parts.  What mistakes were made in placement by the machine were traced to leds bouncing in the feeder such that they were not laying flat for pickup.  Nonetheless, the vacuum nozzles lifted the LEDs, took them to the FASTCAM array and on to the panel where there were placement errors.  The 660 has a screen that presents 6 static images from the FASTCAM array so you can observe part alignment for each pickup cycle.  Then I noticed a setup parameter that allows you to specify the percent deviation in X-Y size as an accept/reject criteria.  With this input, any edge-grab led pickups were rejected and sent to a predefined throw (think discard) area.  After that 0603 LEDs were laid down with great precision.  You really don't want to rework 0603 or 0402 leds!
I found that the only way to solve this issue with my HW-T4-50F (aka SMT550) was to use an electric feeder. I also did try using the LW percentage rejection but that yielded too much of lost components thrown into the reject bin. I also figure out that this bouncing parts only happens if the LED is thinner and lighter. For example 0.3-0.4mm height 0603 LED would produced that bouncing behaviour on the pneumatic based CL feeder but if the LED is of thicker type like 0.6-0.7 mm, that generally reduced the issue down to 1 in 10 picks. But, using thicker LED and electric feeder, that solved my issues completely. So, nowadays I looked the LED height before purchasing.
 
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Offline Proto

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Re: YX SMT660 SMT880 P&P machines
« Reply #11 on: May 19, 2021, 04:44:07 pm »
Thanks for your tips. 

I have seen better results with taller leds.  My yield on a 12 image panel with 240 leds total was already high with maybe 6 misplaced parts due to a bad lie in the tape pocket.  I just wanted to get near perfect yield and the LW parameter in the vision system to deduce an angled pickup allowed that in my 0603 generation.  My new challenge is to beat down the much higher incidence of part bounce with 0402 leds, more often flying right out of the tape pocket on feed advance so there is nothing for the 660 to pick up.  This is where you start changing the number of retries - I went to 6.  It happened with a led vendor I was unfamiliar with and whose parts I paid a lot for per reel.  With my regular led supplier, Everlight, the pocket bounce is very low and placement errors with 0402 parts is about at zero.  So my next trials to get things production tuned is to use Everlight exclusively for 0402 version boards.  My 0603 generation needs tweaking in reflow profiles to prevent or reduce tilt.

Once before, I asked Jim at YX if there was an electric feeder upgrade for the 660 and believe he said no.  If the answer ever becomes yes, I'd be all in.
 

Offline 48X24X48X

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Re: YX SMT660 SMT880 P&P machines
« Reply #12 on: May 19, 2021, 05:40:22 pm »
Thanks for your tips. 

I have seen better results with taller leds.  My yield on a 12 image panel with 240 leds total was already high with maybe 6 misplaced parts due to a bad lie in the tape pocket.  I just wanted to get near perfect yield and the LW parameter in the vision system to deduce an angled pickup allowed that in my 0603 generation.  My new challenge is to beat down the much higher incidence of part bounce with 0402 leds, more often flying right out of the tape pocket on feed advance so there is nothing for the 660 to pick up.  This is where you start changing the number of retries - I went to 6.  It happened with a led vendor I was unfamiliar with and whose parts I paid a lot for per reel.  With my regular led supplier, Everlight, the pocket bounce is very low and placement errors with 0402 parts is about at zero.  So my next trials to get things production tuned is to use Everlight exclusively for 0402 version boards.  My 0603 generation needs tweaking in reflow profiles to prevent or reduce tilt.

Once before, I asked Jim at YX if there was an electric feeder upgrade for the 660 and believe he said no.  If the answer ever becomes yes, I'd be all in.
I guess he sold one without the electric feeder option installed to you. All HWGC machine has electric feeder option.

Offline JMG

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Re: YX SMT660 SMT880 P&P machines
« Reply #13 on: May 19, 2021, 09:02:37 pm »
There is an electric feeder option for the 550 for an additional $250 but I refused it as my $7500 machine was already over $9200 before import taxes. Maybe its available as a retro fit? I'm not too worried at the moment as I only go as small as 0603.

Yep I'm dealing with Jim. I've asked Jim for basic information and he just seems pissed off that he's asked, leaving little good will and a lot of concern. I think part of my worry is that I threw all I had to spare at this machine and if its junk, I'm screwed. My tiny company is exploding and adding to the stress that this must succeed. One day, I want to be a little company  :-DD
 
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Offline JacksterTopic starter

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Re: YX SMT660 SMT880 P&P machines
« Reply #14 on: May 20, 2021, 11:56:24 pm »
Thanks for the writeup Proto and others.

Lots of great info.


Looks like this is the machine for me. I am in a similar position though we are now at product 2. The first 300 boards I did by hand, and will probably be doing another 150 this time before I order this machine. Luckily my electronics guy has a Versatronics RVsomething machine that will do most of the work, hopefully. Would love it for the first run but need the cash first!
While our boards are only have 30-50 components each, it is mostly 0602 and a couple 0402. So I am not after Yamaha or Samsung level accuracy. Nor an I looking for high CPH..

Having bought a few dozen bits of equipment, nothing this expensive yet, looks to be the standard list of things to fix or make somewhat suitable for Western standards.

Dual monitors is definitely something I would like.

As for feeders. They offered me 35x 8mm feeders with the 880. Though I got another 5 out of them for free. I was planning on buying a few 12mm and 16mm as well as a single 24mm. Will also need a vibration feeder too.
I have budgeted for 2-4 electronic 8mm feeders.
Been watching Unexpected Maker and his CharmHigh p&p fiasco and it looks like these used / knockoff feeders do bounce small components a lot. Wondering if it can be fixed with a higher quality oem cylinder? I do have a few 0402 components but only 2 LEDs. The others are diodes that are also quite light so thinking they are best off in an electronic feeder too.

From the sounds of it. Adding electronic feeders is just adding a power supply? Don't they still use the pneumatic to know when to push a new component out?

I too am dealing with Jim. While he has been pushy with me saying the free feeders is the first time they have done it and that the deal was only for 2 days. He has been alright overall.
He provided me with the files attached to post 1 without a comment.

My biggest concern is the software.
I would love to get my hands on it and see if my mates could hack into it and make it better for larger monitors. Looks like they are using the basic VS Forms to make the UI. Any chance you could send me a copy of the software package?

Offline 48X24X48X

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Re: YX SMT660 SMT880 P&P machines
« Reply #15 on: May 21, 2021, 06:07:39 am »
Thanks for the writeup Proto and others.

Lots of great info.


Looks like this is the machine for me. I am in a similar position though we are now at product 2. The first 300 boards I did by hand, and will probably be doing another 150 this time before I order this machine. Luckily my electronics guy has a Versatronics RVsomething machine that will do most of the work, hopefully. Would love it for the first run but need the cash first!
While our boards are only have 30-50 components each, it is mostly 0602 and a couple 0402. So I am not after Yamaha or Samsung level accuracy. Nor an I looking for high CPH..

Having bought a few dozen bits of equipment, nothing this expensive yet, looks to be the standard list of things to fix or make somewhat suitable for Western standards.

Dual monitors is definitely something I would like.

As for feeders. They offered me 35x 8mm feeders with the 880. Though I got another 5 out of them for free. I was planning on buying a few 12mm and 16mm as well as a single 24mm. Will also need a vibration feeder too.
I have budgeted for 2-4 electronic 8mm feeders.
Been watching Unexpected Maker and his CharmHigh p&p fiasco and it looks like these used / knockoff feeders do bounce small components a lot. Wondering if it can be fixed with a higher quality oem cylinder? I do have a few 0402 components but only 2 LEDs. The others are diodes that are also quite light so thinking they are best off in an electronic feeder too.

From the sounds of it. Adding electronic feeders is just adding a power supply? Don't they still use the pneumatic to know when to push a new component out?

I too am dealing with Jim. While he has been pushy with me saying the free feeders is the first time they have done it and that the deal was only for 2 days. He has been alright overall.
He provided me with the files attached to post 1 without a comment.

My biggest concern is the software.
I would love to get my hands on it and see if my mates could hack into it and make it better for larger monitors. Looks like they are using the basic VS Forms to make the UI. Any chance you could send me a copy of the software package?
They do have a new machine which is basically a 2 4-head machine cascaded into 1 machine. It's huge but you basically have a hundred feeders with a pair of 4-heads running concurrently. If you haven't buy the older 8-head, it's worth the check. But not sure reseller like YX offering them already to market outside of China. I deal directly with HWGC though.

There's a row of electric power socket if you ordered them installed. I got my machine from Beijing Glichn and they specifically told me it is not included unless ordered by customer. My HW-T4-50F is about USD6.3K shipped to Malaysia by boat but without import broker, but we found one local company that helps to do all those import stuff and shipping for USD350. As they are based in Beijing but the boat service depart from Guangzhou, I arranged a land shipping from Beijing all the way to the south. They didn't charged me for that as I no longer use their bundled sea shipping from Beijing to Malaysia (that tells you how cheap is sea shipping!). On top of that price, I added about 22x of 8mm, 4x of 12mm, 4x of 16mm and a vibration feeder. Total with machine about USD8K++. Since then, I ordered a bunch more pneumatic feeder and electric feeders. But, I have since stop purchasing 8mm pneumatic feeder and instead investing only on electric feeder. Will probably sell off all my pneumatic 8mm feeders too in the near future. The electric feeder still uses the existing solenoid air as a triggering signal for the electric motor to advance the tape.

The software is locked to each machine with each software installation requires a key generated based on the machine ID by them. The new software is no longer locked to the 4:3 aspect ratio last I asked the lead software developer. I don't have much space, else I would use a bigger monitor too. My advise to you, try the software first and you will be surprised how usable it is. The latest version is really a big upgrade.

Offline JacksterTopic starter

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Re: YX SMT660 SMT880 P&P machines
« Reply #16 on: May 21, 2021, 11:57:38 am »
They do have a new machine which is basically a 2 4-head machine cascaded into 1 machine. It's huge but you basically have a hundred feeders with a pair of 4-heads running concurrently. If you haven't buy the older 8-head, it's worth the check. But not sure reseller like YX offering them already to market outside of China. I deal directly with HWGC though.

There's a row of electric power socket if you ordered them installed. I got my machine from Beijing Glichn and they specifically told me it is not included unless ordered by customer. My HW-T4-50F is about USD6.3K shipped to Malaysia by boat but without import broker, but we found one local company that helps to do all those import stuff and shipping for USD350. As they are based in Beijing but the boat service depart from Guangzhou, I arranged a land shipping from Beijing all the way to the south. They didn't charged me for that as I no longer use their bundled sea shipping from Beijing to Malaysia (that tells you how cheap is sea shipping!). On top of that price, I added about 22x of 8mm, 4x of 12mm, 4x of 16mm and a vibration feeder. Total with machine about USD8K++. Since then, I ordered a bunch more pneumatic feeder and electric feeders. But, I have since stop purchasing 8mm pneumatic feeder and instead investing only on electric feeder. Will probably sell off all my pneumatic 8mm feeders too in the near future. The electric feeder still uses the existing solenoid air as a triggering signal for the electric motor to advance the tape.

The software is locked to each machine with each software installation requires a key generated based on the machine ID by them. The new software is no longer locked to the 4:3 aspect ratio last I asked the lead software developer. I don't have much space, else I would use a bigger monitor too. My advise to you, try the software first and you will be surprised how usable it is. The latest version is really a big upgrade.

Ill ask them about this new machine. See what info I can get.



YX has electric feeders from $250. So they are 8mm.
Their vibration feeder is also $250.

Neoden sells 8mm and vibration feeder for $199 and

Full pricing from YX, HWGC and Neoden here
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1o59ew0r3EL1JKFsNjkMwd5DyvhckeIeWCILkPt-afos/edit?usp=sharing

HWGC just said they would offer the same free feeder deal as YX.
HWGC shipping to port is free if you ask for it. They don't offer Door 2 Door. YX offers Door to Door for free.

Updated the OP with spec, pricing and more info about the machines. Will continue to document them while I wait for 3D printer to finish :p

Offline 48X24X48X

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The *HWGC* you are dealing with on Alibaba and Aliexpress is also just a reseller like YX. They paid some royalty and licensing fee to use their name. The factory haven't do any international sales for now. I doubt that you could get any information on the new machine, it's not up on any of their website or local Taobao store. But order book has been opened.

You can get the electrical feeder from Beijing Glichn for much better pricing. I have looked around in Shenzhen areas for feeder supplier, nothing beat their pricing. So, either I didn't dig deep enough into the supply chain or they are just being nice to me.  :P

Neoden does sell some stuff cheaper than others. Their 24 mm pneumatic feeder is cheaper than anyone out there. Cheapest 8 mm pneumatic CL Yamaha clones I have bought is around USD14 second hand on and new at USD43 on Taobao. Some of these *new* are actually refurbished feeders. Be careful of that.

Offline JacksterTopic starter

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The *HWGC* you are dealing with on Alibaba and Aliexpress is also just a reseller like YX. They paid some royalty and licensing fee to use their name. The factory haven't do any international sales for now. I doubt that you could get any information on the new machine, it's not up on any of their website or local Taobao store. But order book has been opened.

You can get the electrical feeder from Beijing Glichn for much better pricing. I have looked around in Shenzhen areas for feeder supplier, nothing beat their pricing. So, either I didn't dig deep enough into the supply chain or they are just being nice to me.  :P

Neoden does sell some stuff cheaper than others. Their 24 mm pneumatic feeder is cheaper than anyone out there. Cheapest 8 mm pneumatic CL Yamaha clones I have bought is around USD14 second hand on and new at USD43 on Taobao. Some of these *new* are actually refurbished feeders. Be careful of that.

But they just told me they are the manufacturer. Are you telling me they are not telling the truth?  :-DD

I asked YX and all they have said is "but it is not so stable". Guess that means it is still early days and not ready for selling.

Oh nice find with Beijing Glichn. 8mm electric feeder is $150.
They resel the 80 feeder as the "GP800". I have requested a quote along with my feeders to see what they offer.

What is the consensus on refurbished OEM or clone feeders? Which ones are better?

Offline 48X24X48X

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I made friends with the HWGC guys when I went over their factory in Beijing (Glichn helped to organize the trip as it is located outskirt of Beijing) and also their showroom factory in Shenzhen. So, I know exactly who I'm dealing with.

I doubt there's new original Yamaha CL feeder in the market anymore. These are just copies or refurbished copies. There are subtle differences though between suppliers which i noticed. But, what I would recommend is buying only from 1 supplier. The part that holds the reels can be of different shape and width. So, when you have feeders from various supplier, they tend to be a bit tight when sitting to each other. And I really hate my electric feeder sitting next to pneumatic ones due to their shapes on the handle making it hard to remove and install them.

Offline JacksterTopic starter

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I made friends with the HWGC guys when I went over their factory in Beijing (Glichn helped to organize the trip as it is located outskirt of Beijing) and also their showroom factory in Shenzhen. So, I know exactly who I'm dealing with.

I doubt there's new original Yamaha CL feeder in the market anymore. These are just copies or refurbished copies. There are subtle differences though between suppliers which i noticed. But, what I would recommend is buying only from 1 supplier. The part that holds the reels can be of different shape and width. So, when you have feeders from various supplier, they tend to be a bit tight when sitting to each other. And I really hate my electric feeder sitting next to pneumatic ones due to their shapes on the handle making it hard to remove and install them.

Just been talking with Glichn and they have this similar machine called the FPT800.
Same spec as the 80 feeders YX/HWGC but with a single fly cam instead of 8+high res, dual monitors, integrated silent air compressor and what looks to be quite different UI software.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1NoAtoTSaUZ_ZAEOKMr3qvz0z5GqYgdnf/view?usp=sharing


Price with electric feeder upgrade, 40x 8mm feeders and shipping to my door, $15500.
Feeders are basically the same price as Neoden though $65 more for the 24mm.

No English manual yet, they are working on it.


Offline TIOUK

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We have an SMT660 and been using it for a year. Came with 35 free 8mm feeders, but we bought 20 more + some 12, 16 & 24mm, stick feeder, extra nozzels. We had the $250 electric option free when we bought 2 electric feeders. We have since bought a load more, if you have the budget get them upfront where you will get a better deal for the larger order. Jim is good to work with, although he will always try and sell you more! The big 24mm feeders are a pain, they move so fast parts get shaken out with more on the floor than on the boards, so some parts like HC49 crystals are being designed out for 3.2x2.5 in 8mm tape, but that's a feeder issue not a machine issue.

We will getting 2 or 3 more machines, but just put it back as we have real issues with sourcing parts. Don't fret about your machine, it will be good, in the time other people on here have been fixing their used bargain machine, our increased profit to paid for the machine times over. I also used an RV4S for a while during our early days, while it helped us progress, the SMT660 is in another league.

When you work out the software process it is quick to setup, but you can't get a look/feel for the software as it won't startup without a machine attached even if you could get hold of a copy. The manual is bare minimum watch online videos, there isn't a lot to learn. Make sure you set it up accurately. The conveyor default speed is too high, the belt slides under the PCB, slow it down to 4 and a 1.5 second delay. The crosshair in the camera view is by default yellow, change it to red as you get a much better view. You will need to tweak the fid recognition settings (brightness/contrast) to get it working, but once you have it right it will work reliably with FID1 upper left and FID2 bottom right. My biggest wish is to have a manual selection of the feeder order/position rather than the built-in optimisation that sometimes insists you move a feeder to a new position. We had no issues with the electrical safety of the machine, it was checked out by a top notch sparky and tested out OK. I have never run it full speed, it's too fast to keep up with at the door open speed.

We got a silent type compressor for air like: eBay auction: #173975839172, it provides enough air at the right pressure, but the duty cycle is high and it over heats and shuts down so we have another not so silent one daisy chained that we had lying around. We also added an SMC membrane air dryer inline like this on eBay auction: #143480683473 for $55.
 
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Offline PartialDischarge

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Re: YX SMT660 SMT880 P&P machines
« Reply #22 on: May 21, 2021, 05:51:01 pm »
Will probably sell off all my pneumatic 8mm feeders too in the near future.

Let me know I will probably be interested in 10 or 20...
What SW version do you have?


I'm also a recent owner of the HW-T4SG. It's the first Pnp that I own and I'm happy for now. Still learning many things about it, but in one day I was able to mount a few components from a board. I had to calibrate the feeder pickup position as it was off by 1 or 2mm. Also I had to up the led lightness to improve camera recognition. Other than that I'm still planning for a large batch to make.

 

Offline JacksterTopic starter

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Are these feeder issues universal with Yamaha CL or just on these lower-cost machines?
I am tempted to order a single 8mm and do some tests to see how they work and what is wrong with them at this point.
Got a somewhat high-speed camera that I can set up and view different parts of the mechanism.


@TIOUK could I buy one off ya?  ;D

Offline 48X24X48X

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We have an SMT660 and been using it for a year. Came with 35 free 8mm feeders, but we bought 20 more + some 12, 16 & 24mm, stick feeder, extra nozzels. We had the $250 electric option free when we bought 2 electric feeders. We have since bought a load more, if you have the budget get them upfront where you will get a better deal for the larger order. Jim is good to work with, although he will always try and sell you more! The big 24mm feeders are a pain, they move so fast parts get shaken out with more on the floor than on the boards, so some parts like HC49 crystals are being designed out for 3.2x2.5 in 8mm tape, but that's a feeder issue not a machine issue.

We will getting 2 or 3 more machines, but just put it back as we have real issues with sourcing parts. Don't fret about your machine, it will be good, in the time other people on here have been fixing their used bargain machine, our increased profit to paid for the machine times over. I also used an RV4S for a while during our early days, while it helped us progress, the SMT660 is in another league.

When you work out the software process it is quick to setup, but you can't get a look/feel for the software as it won't startup without a machine attached even if you could get hold of a copy. The manual is bare minimum watch online videos, there isn't a lot to learn. Make sure you set it up accurately. The conveyor default speed is too high, the belt slides under the PCB, slow it down to 4 and a 1.5 second delay. The crosshair in the camera view is by default yellow, change it to red as you get a much better view. You will need to tweak the fid recognition settings (brightness/contrast) to get it working, but once you have it right it will work reliably with FID1 upper left and FID2 bottom right. My biggest wish is to have a manual selection of the feeder order/position rather than the built-in optimisation that sometimes insists you move a feeder to a new position. We had no issues with the electrical safety of the machine, it was checked out by a top notch sparky and tested out OK. I have never run it full speed, it's too fast to keep up with at the door open speed.

We got a silent type compressor for air like: eBay auction: #173975839172, it provides enough air at the right pressure, but the duty cycle is high and it over heats and shuts down so we have another not so silent one daisy chained that we had lying around. We also added an SMC membrane air dryer inline like this on eBay auction: #143480683473 for $55.

You can assign the feeder manually. That is what I did in the beginning because I thought I could save some time across different projects that uses same base components (capacitor, resistor, LED) by putting them at specific same location. Then I realized that when I do that, the pick and place process is not optimized and a lot slower compared to when the software assign them. It is a lot faster because the software optimized to fill up all the head at 1 go and bringing them over the camera (if all falls under fast camera) at 1 go too. You might be having an older software? Because that is what I heard from a fellow Malaysian compatriot that owned a few of the HW-T6-64F. So, if I'm not wrong you are probably 2 version behind.

The air supply requirement is basically 60 liter and above with air flow rate of minimum 120l/m. I got a 50 liter with 180 l/m unit, silence and oil-free. I doubt there is any oil-free and silence air compressor above 60 liter. And yes, make sure you have the in-line air filter and spend some money on that because it will save you all the trouble related to pneumatic.

Offline 48X24X48X

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Re: YX SMT660 SMT880 P&P machines
« Reply #25 on: May 22, 2021, 03:02:27 am »
Will probably sell off all my pneumatic 8mm feeders too in the near future.

Let me know I will probably be interested in 10 or 20...
What SW version do you have?
Will put it up at the buy/sell forum when the time comes.

I'm on 20210226_8.0.0_R2_R. I'm sure there's a slightly newer one than this, fixing small untranslated section.

Offline PartialDischarge

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Yes, I have 20210310_8.0.0_R3_r
 

Offline JacksterTopic starter

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HWGC sales have spent the whole morning trying to get me to buy their machine  ::)



$2650 for a 6 zone conveyor reflow oven a good deal?


They have sent the software manual so I have uploaded it to the Google Drive in the HW-T8-80F folder.
https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1V7BzhfgAOhGsFFIn-jTZzGSy_frviEoD?usp=sharing

I'll save you the time of checking, but it is the same manual that YX sent me.
Apparently, their software is "better than YX" but everything is starting to look the same  :-DD

So far the pricing between the two is around the same. They both offer me 40x 8mm feeders included in the price.
But YX offers free door to door shipping while HWGC only does port to port. Total deal-breaker when they come out within a few hundred $$ of each other.
Not only is a port collection a hassle with customs, but there are other fees and physically having to go get it in a hire van (if it will all fit in a transit) is another £150 plus a day of my time...

Offline JacksterTopic starter

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YX was not very clear and actually charge $1800 for door to door service.
I did ask for door to door twice during the original quote as well.

Both YX and HWGC are around the $2000 for this.

Anyone in the UK collected at port before? As temping as it sounds to go rent a Luton, idk the process.

Offline JanL

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Why don't you use a freight forwarder? Here in Germany I paid around 350 Euros for my 200kg reflow oven and thery took care of customs and import tax.
You will find similar service in the UK.
 

Offline JacksterTopic starter

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Why don't you use a freight forwarder? Here in Germany I paid around 350 Euros for my 200kg reflow oven and thery took care of customs and import tax.
You will find similar service in the UK.

I think I tried contacting a few in Jan/Feb but none of them wanted one off workaround then due to all the Brexit and coronavirus stuff.

Will try again now.


[edit]
Looking into it, does not look that hard. Though one has to watch out for a few things.
These guys have some decent info on importing and port costs.
http://customsclearances.com/downloads.html

Offline JMG

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I'll be picking my machine up from the port of Chicago -- eventually. It had an ETA of 5/28, then 6/5, now it could be 2 to 4 weeks longer due to all the current shipping issues. My port fees are $455, plus import taxes and what ever else decides to be thrown in. I think now I'm at around $10K for a 550 with an extra 15 feeders. I just need it to get here, I'm falling behind on orders and that is never a good thing.
 

Offline 48X24X48X

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I would suggest contact a local company to do this because the most important part is the custom clearance process. And usually that local company would probably even have a branch in China due to the high volume of importing. Then I asked Beijing Glichn to send the machine to the port requested by the freight forwarder together with paper works for custom clearance. From there onward, it's the responsibility of the freight forwarder. Do opt for insurance coverage although I skimped on this.  >:D I'm lucky because there's 0% tax on pick and place machine here in Malaysia.

Offline JMG

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I do have a freight forwarder doing all the required stuff to import it correctly. They do the paperwork, pay everything, insure it etc, I pay them and pick it up from the port.

So what is the rate of parts bounce for 0603 parts with pneumatic feeders? I specifically bought this thing to place about 20,000 0603 caps and resistors and about 200 large LQFP's a week. Can the electric power distribution be retro fitted to allow electric feeders to be used. Eh, I'll just ask Jim and report the answer back here.
 

Offline JacksterTopic starter

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I do have a freight forwarder doing all the required stuff to import it correctly. They do the paperwork, pay everything, insure it etc, I pay them and pick it up from the port.

So what is the rate of parts bounce for 0603 parts with pneumatic feeders? I specifically bought this thing to place about 20,000 0603 caps and resistors and about 200 large LQFP's a week. Can the electric power distribution be retro fitted to allow electric feeders to be used. Eh, I'll just ask Jim and report the answer back here.

Looks like they will just provide you will a couple PSU units and the sockets for the feeders on some long wires if you buy the option after it has been shipped.
You should be able to drill all the holes for the sockets and fit them or just leave them on the floor and hook up as needed.



I have contacted a freight forwarder and they have said I am looking at around $700 for port fees or maybe more if the cargo line is a bit scammy.
To then get the pallet to me from the port, around $425.
Total of at least $1125.

Still shy of the $2000 quoted for door to door until you add on VAT and Duty which is 20% total here.
That is another $400 thus $2400 total. Over twice the price. worth the hassle me thinks  ::)

Offline JMG

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My Stateside fees are going to be $3277.19 plus driving to Chicago, renting a room and an enclosed trailer. I'm going to be at $13.5K all in when it finally lands on my doorstep.

Jim is interested in selling me electric feeders and doesn't understand that I'm asking for the power supply and connectors to power those feeders even though I asked specifically for those parts.
 

Offline 48X24X48X

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My Stateside fees are going to be $3277.19 plus driving to Chicago, renting a room and an enclosed trailer. I'm going to be at $13.5K all in when it finally lands on my doorstep.

Jim is interested in selling me electric feeders and doesn't understand that I'm asking for the power supply and connectors to power those feeders even though I asked specifically for those parts.
Show him the photos by circling the power ports under the feeder banks.

Offline Styno

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TS, I’m looking at the first table and it appears the dimensions of the more capable machine (880) are smaller than the middle one (660). Is that correct?

And this is a working video of the HW-T8-80F (for your collection in Google drive):
« Last Edit: June 05, 2021, 06:59:56 pm by Styno »
 

Offline JacksterTopic starter

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TS, I’m looking at the first table and it appears the dimensions of the more capable machine (880) are smaller than the middle one (660). Is that correct?

And this is a working video of the HW-T8-80F (for your collection in Google drive):


From the Alibaba listings, 60 feeder is 1450*1370*1550mm and the 80 feeder is 1420*1370*1350mm
Not sure why. The listing photos look nearly the same but the case is slightly different.

60

80


To me, the 80 feeder is at least 20-30cm wider and maybe not as tall? So hard to tell with white background and nothing to reference.
The spacing of the USB ports on the right leg and the width of the feeder area is the giveaway that the 80 is wider for sure.


Both sellers state the same measurements.

Offline 48X24X48X

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Here's a HW-T8SG-80F on the left and HW-T6SG-64F on the right. This was at HWGC's mini factory/showroom in Shenzhen. There was also an older SMT460 (I can't remember it's HWGC part number) in the same room. This is slightly older iteration but I doubt it changes too much.
 
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Offline laseralex

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My Stateside fees are going to be $3277.19 plus driving to Chicago, renting a room and an enclosed trailer. I'm going to be at $13.5K all in when it finally lands on my doorstep.

Ouch!  What are all the fees?  Is that mostly import duty, or are there other things driving it up?

I'm trying to decide between a 4-head and a 6-head machine, and which vendor to buy from.  I want to be sure I'm prepared for all the associated expenses.
 

Offline Smallsmt

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Quote
Ouch!  What are all the fees?  Is that mostly import duty, or are there other things driving it up?

Looks like 30% import tarrif USA is charging if machine bought from China.
 

Offline JanL

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Does anyone have a sugguestion for a vacuum pump for SMT550? 0.6 - 0.7 MPa is high pressure as I understand.
 

Offline 48X24X48X

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Does anyone have a sugguestion for a vacuum pump for SMT550? 0.6 - 0.7 MPa is high pressure as I understand.
Usually most pump comes with 0.8 MPa. More is okay but not less because some losses happen at the filter. More important is the capacity which is recommended to be 60 liter or more, mine is 50 liter. Air flow per minute was recommended by HWGC as 120 liter/minute, mine is 180 liter/minute. Don't forget a good air filter.

Offline JanL

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But 0.6 MPa is high pressure and no vacuum. What am I missing? Do I get the vacuum at the inlet of the pump?
 

Offline Styno

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Vacuum can be created by a vacuum pump or -and this is commonly used- a Venturi vacuum 'generator' that uses air pressure through a Venturi valve.
 

Offline JanL

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Vacuum can be created by a vacuum pump or -and this is commonly used- a Venturi vacuum 'generator' that uses air pressure through a Venturi valve.

Thank you. I understand this principle.

And I guess this valve is built into this machine?
 

Offline 48X24X48X

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Vacuum can be created by a vacuum pump or -and this is commonly used- a Venturi vacuum 'generator' that uses air pressure through a Venturi valve.

Thank you. I understand this principle.

And I guess this valve is built into this machine?
Yes, you only need to get an air compressor like this. Don't bother about the link specification, I simply picked one.

Offline JanL

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Yes, you only need to get an air compressor like this. Don't bother about the link specification, I simply picked one.
[/quote]
Thanks! This helped a lot.
 

Offline JMG

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27.5% import tax on the machine, 25% import tax on the feeders and the 110V conversion, plus various port and forwarder fees.
Just been informed its on the rail network between LA and Chicago, it cant be tracked, and it is currently at least one more week behind schedule.
 
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Offline laseralex

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27.5% import tax on the machine, 25% import tax on the feeders

Ouch, that's brutal!
 

Offline laseralex

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For those of you who already own one of these machines, I have questions about feeders.

I see that components on 8mm tape are spaced on either a 2mm pitch (0201, 0402) or 4mm pitch (0603-1210).  Do I need separate feeders for those different spacings, or do they advance 2mm when actuated and just get actuated twice by the PnP machine when components are 4mm apart?

I'm trying to figure out what feeders I need - I'll be doing a mix of 0603 and 0402 boards, and I hope I don't need 40 8mm feeders for each size!

I also plan on buying some electric feeders to be able to move to 0201 in the future, but they are 3x the cost of the pneumatic feeders.  They don't look as expensive if one of them can replace 2 pneumatic feeders, but 40 of those would cost almost as much as the HW-T4SG-50F I'm planning to put them in.

Thanks in advance!
 

Offline 48X24X48X

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For those of you who already own one of these machines, I have questions about feeders.

I see that components on 8mm tape are spaced on either a 2mm pitch (0201, 0402) or 4mm pitch (0603-1210).  Do I need separate feeders for those different spacings, or do they advance 2mm when actuated and just get actuated twice by the PnP machine when components are 4mm apart?

I'm trying to figure out what feeders I need - I'll be doing a mix of 0603 and 0402 boards, and I hope I don't need 40 8mm feeders for each size!

I also plan on buying some electric feeders to be able to move to 0201 in the future, but they are 3x the cost of the pneumatic feeders.  They don't look as expensive if one of them can replace 2 pneumatic feeders, but 40 of those would cost almost as much as the HW-T4SG-50F I'm planning to put them in.

Thanks in advance!
By default, the feeders are advanced by 4 mm (or multiple of it on larger 12 mm, 16 mm, etc feeder). So, for 0402, they have a special version that advances by 2 mm instead. I would say, if budget permits, go for the electric feeder. Myself started buying more electric feeders and won't be buying pneumatic ones anymore. I think the accuracy, less bouncing for plastic tape, rely less on air pressure quality (only uses it as triggering signal), and quieter are the values I found to be very useful on these electric feeder. But, one aspect I love most about the electric feeder is when you swap out a reel for another, you only lose 2 components while the pneumatic ones loses 6 components for 8 mm reels. The electric feeder can be configured to advance either 2 mm or 4 mm. But, the 8 mm pneumatic ones are very good itself for your regular passive and active, and also can be had for as cheap as USD40 if you hunt around. 2nd hands can be had for as low as USD10.

Offline JacksterTopic starter

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For those of you who already own one of these machines, I have questions about feeders.

I see that components on 8mm tape are spaced on either a 2mm pitch (0201, 0402) or 4mm pitch (0603-1210).  Do I need separate feeders for those different spacings, or do they advance 2mm when actuated and just get actuated twice by the PnP machine when components are 4mm apart?

I'm trying to figure out what feeders I need - I'll be doing a mix of 0603 and 0402 boards, and I hope I don't need 40 8mm feeders for each size!

I also plan on buying some electric feeders to be able to move to 0201 in the future, but they are 3x the cost of the pneumatic feeders.  They don't look as expensive if one of them can replace 2 pneumatic feeders, but 40 of those would cost almost as much as the HW-T4SG-50F I'm planning to put them in.

Thanks in advance!

Yamaha CL feeders in 8mm have 3 models.

2mm pitch 0201 High precision
2mm pitch 0402 Normal precision
4mm pitch Standard precision 0603 and up

The electric feeders are basically all high precision.
We use 0603 primarily but have a few small LEDs and diodes. So my plan is to get 40-50 8mm 4mm pneumatic feeders along with 10 or so 8mm electric feeders for these smaller components.
This should cover us pretty well. Hopefully, you can just get a load of 0201-0204 feeders and as you say, advance them twice per pick for your larger components.


Offline JMG

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I have not verified the part numbers yet, but, I found part numbers and feeder specs and created this spreadsheet. Hope it helps.

 

Offline JacksterTopic starter

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I have not verified the part numbers yet, but, I found part numbers and feeder specs and created this spreadsheet. Hope it helps.

The 8x4mm ones I am getting are KW1-M1200-300.

Is there a wiki on this stuff so one can work out what the numbers mean?   ;D

Offline JacksterTopic starter

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Just picked up 150 feeders. Mostly 8mm at around 120 of.
Now I need to save up for the machine xD

Offline JMG

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My machine has arrived in Chicago and is cleared for pick up! I'm about to pay the invoice for the forwarder which includes import taxes and a wealth of other fees. It'll be a $2703.80 outlay, plus at least $45 for them to fork lift it on to my trailer wen i get there. I'm definitely approaching $4500 in various fees and taxes to buy a $7500 machine with about $1000 in additional feeders. Should have bought that $18K Samsung with 100 feeders. Oh well!  :palm: :D

Soooo anyone know what size and type of container the 550 comes in? Would I need an enclosed trailer if its raining or is the packaging typically weatherproof?
 

Offline JacksterTopic starter

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My machine has arrived in Chicago and is cleared for pick up! I'm about to pay the invoice for the forwarder which includes import taxes and a wealth of other fees. It'll be a $2703.80 outlay, plus at least $45 for them to fork lift it on to my trailer wen i get there. I'm definitely approaching $4500 in various fees and taxes to buy a $7500 machine with about $1000 in additional feeders. Should have bought that $18K Samsung with 100 feeders. Oh well!  :palm: :D

Soooo anyone know what size and type of container the 550 comes in? Would I need an enclosed trailer if its raining or is the packaging typically weatherproof?

From the looks of it, you can expect a wood box slightly larger than the machine with a few lengths of wood under it nailed together. A bit of tarp will do if you are putting it on a trailer.
I had a laser come last year and left it outside for a week. The top ply warped but the inside was nice and dry.

Sucks about the fees. They did not offer lower invoice $$$ when shipping? Pretty standard to be offered that.

Offline 48X24X48X

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Soooo anyone know what size and type of container the 550 comes in? Would I need an enclosed trailer if its raining or is the packaging typically weatherproof?
Here's how it look like, I forgot the measurements but the volumetric was 1.46 m3.

Offline JMG

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Got my machine installed and powered up for the first time tonight but the software registration has expired. I'm waiting on an email from Jim to provide a fix to that. Also noted there is no wireless or ethernet connection available.
 

Offline JMG

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Still waiting for a working registration, after several emails and about 18 hours.  |O
 

Offline JacksterTopic starter

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Still waiting for a working registration, after several emails and about 18 hours.  |O

DON'T TURN IT ON

TAKE IT APART


And record it, some of us want to see what is inside :p

Offline NorthGuy

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Still waiting for a working registration, after several emails and about 18 hours.  |O

Why the hell do they need the registration? Isn't the software free?

What happens if it expires again? Does the machine become useless then?
 

Offline 48X24X48X

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Mine bought through Beijing Glichn which is basically a stock HWGC machine doesn't have such software expiry.

Offline JMG

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Got a code, machine moves, going to bed! It 3am and I've been anxious about this for 27 hours!
 

Offline JacksterTopic starter

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Someone send me the software package. Want to take a look.

Registration lock is pretty easy to get around most of the time.

Offline JMG

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Problems so far:

Noisy video from the mark camera
Conveyer rails are not parallel
Embedded scratches in the plastic cover over the nozzle cameras.
Software is 2018 version.
 

Offline PartialDischarge

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There is one thing that really annoys me in this machine, and that is the software checking on disabled components. Maybe I'm misunderstanding something, but if for whatever reason I don't want to mount some components there is a "Valid" check mark on the component list.
So still I should have to select the correct footprint and optimize the whole thing as if I was to mount them, otherwise I get a lot of errors in the "Diagnose" section.

Of course I could delete those components but I want to keep them there for future use.
« Last Edit: June 27, 2021, 05:24:42 pm by MasterTech »
 

Offline PartialDischarge

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Another thing is that I expected the component library to be bigger, but in any case no problem in defining new components.
However I surely cannot figure out all these parameters in the list, for example for this TSSOP8-4.3x3mm package I newly defined

For example, do the dimensions include the pins?
What is the sync/pick tolerance?
What is the special Scan-R?
What is the Charactors-check?
What is the pick-H pressure offset?

The manufacturer could at least write some documentation about this.

« Last Edit: June 27, 2021, 05:47:40 pm by MasterTech »
 

Offline 48X24X48X

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For example, do the dimensions include the pins?
What is the sync/pick tolerance?
What is the special Scan-R?
What is the Charactors-check?
What is the pick-H pressure offset?
Scan-R is when the default camera scan radius on the component is not enough to cover the entire component dimension. The default scan radius would fit nearly everything jelly beans and IC. But, if you have something larger like module, USB connector you enlarged this scan radius. To see the effects of this scan radius, go to any component feeder page, pick the component to the fast/high camera and play with the scan radius.

Charactors-check is used to detect if the component is picked but wrongly picked on the side which when looked on the camera, it pretty much a rectangular/square shape that look "legit" to the software. If you enabled this Charactors-check and set the percentage to say 25%, the software would then need to ensure when the component is imaged, it cannot be more/less than 25% off from the dimension (length and width) of the component you have entered. I find this most important with component that can bounced on the feeder and sit sideways on the tape. Of course, it reduced your job in touching up after placement but you lose a lot of components.

The other 2 parameters, I'm not too sure too.
 
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Offline 48X24X48X

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There is one thing that really annoys me in this machine, and that is the software checking on disabled components. Maybe I'm misunderstanding something, but if for whatever reason I don't want to mount some components there is a "Valid" check mark on the component list.
So still I should have to select the correct footprint and optimize the whole thing as if I was to mount them, otherwise I get a lot of errors in the "Diagnose" section.

Of course I could delete those components but I want to keep them there for future use.
Simply assigned plate feeder to them and configure some simple matrix for it to keep the software happy. Or you can add them later if you want to delete them now. I wish they have a 1 check box to somehow tell the software is not being used now, so please ignore it.

Offline PartialDischarge

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Simply assigned plate feeder to them and configure some simple matrix for it to keep the software happy. Or you can add them later if you want to delete them now. I wish they have a 1 check box to somehow tell the software is not being used now, so please ignore it.

Assigning a fake footprint is what I do, but I guess the ignore checkbox could be nice.

I did ask HWGC to write a manual about the footprint library, also told him that people are watching this thread so that that kind of help would benefit the HWGC brand for future sales.
 

Offline JMG

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Is there a way to adjust the tape advance distance on the 16mm reels? Currently they travel half the distance I need, looks about 6mm, I need 12mm.

Ok, I see the little metal tab you can flip over, however this now gives me too much travel lol
« Last Edit: June 28, 2021, 10:08:02 pm by JMG »
 

Offline 48X24X48X

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Is there a way to adjust the tape advance distance on the 16mm reels? Currently they travel half the distance I need, looks about 6mm, I need 12mm.

Ok, I see the little metal tab you can flip over, however this now gives me too much travel lol
The metal tab can do 4, 8, 12 and 16 mm. Push it to the right or left to which the number is engraved on to select the distance required.
« Last Edit: June 29, 2021, 07:30:29 am by 48X24X48X »
 

Offline JMG

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Could someone with an SMT550 please take a picture of the screen showing the green nozzle calibration check boxes at the bottom? I don't know what I did but when trying to calibrate feeders I have managed to un-calibrate the nozzles and they seem WAY off now. I'm looking for a ballpark delta before I run the calibration program as it says if its way off damage could occur. Mine are all in the 14000 - 21000 range on the X and all are 6798 on the Y.

Thanks!
 

Offline 48X24X48X

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Could someone with an SMT550 please take a picture of the screen showing the green nozzle calibration check boxes at the bottom? I don't know what I did but when trying to calibrate feeders I have managed to un-calibrate the nozzles and they seem WAY off now. I'm looking for a ballpark delta before I run the calibration program as it says if its way off damage could occur. Mine are all in the 14000 - 21000 range on the X and all are 6798 on the Y.

Thanks!
The nozzle height should be around 8.2K range for all nozzle (you can move the head to the feeder location and move the nozzle down and save height). Machine should be already calibrated before going out from the factory.

Offline JMG

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This was XY offset, not height, but thank you for answering. I did get it figured out.
New issue though, there doesn't appear to be enough vacuum to pick up an SO8 with a 505 nozzle. I have incoming air regulated to 90psi and I believe its flowing at 4.5cfm. Will continue working on this and report back findings.
 

Offline 48X24X48X

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This was XY offset, not height, but thank you for answering. I did get it figured out.
New issue though, there doesn't appear to be enough vacuum to pick up an SO8 with a 505 nozzle. I have incoming air regulated to 90psi and I believe its flowing at 4.5cfm. Will continue working on this and report back findings.
I have been successfully using 504 on SOIC-8 all along as we only have 4 nozzle, no problem at all. My air supply after the filter is between 0.45-0.7 MPa depending on the time before the compressor start filling up again. This is with a 5 um air filter which ate 0.1 MPa along the way. Double check the height of both picking up and mounting. That is the usual issue, not air so much.

Offline PartialDischarge

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Double check the height of both picking up and mounting.

Regarding this: In the feeder plug there is an easy way to check the pick-height, but how could one check the placing of one component say in "slow motion" ?
It would be nice to check visually if the component is either released too early or pushed too hard.
 

Offline 48X24X48X

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On the individual feeder, you can try setting the mount down speed and up speed to something like 5-10 (if you want super slow motion, set to 1. Speed 10 is enough for me to investigate). Then on the PCB Edit, right click to run a specific component mount test corresponds to the feeder you have just setup earlier.

Offline 48X24X48X

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Surprisingly HWGC lineup actually is not that small! The HW-DU400-64 looks like a nice balanced machine. And it's even bigger surprise they updated the older 44 feeder machine too. The new red 4 head x 2 is very cheap compared to what is out there.
« Last Edit: July 02, 2021, 10:09:59 am by 48X24X48X »
 


Offline 48X24X48X

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Direct conversion yields USD22K. Only missing fly by camera but not a deal breaker.

Offline Styno

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Double check the height of both picking up and mounting.

Regarding this: In the feeder plug there is an easy way to check the pick-height, but how could one check the placing of one component say in "slow motion" ?
It would be nice to check visually if the component is either released too early or pushed too hard.
Usually you should be able to hear that quite easily as a loud *thunk*. At least that's what I get with our machine when the component z-size setting is too small.
 

Offline PartialDischarge

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Then on the PCB Edit, right click to run a specific component mount test corresponds to the feeder you have just setup earlier.

That is a very nice feature that I missed, being able to mount just one component directly form the list.
 

Offline JacksterTopic starter

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I have updated the spreadsheet with the new models.

HW-DU400-64F   HW-DU800-96F   HW-DSQ800-120F are using electric NXT feeders by the way.
Have fun getting those for a good price.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1o59ew0r3EL1JKFsNjkMwd5DyvhckeIeWCILkPt-afos/edit?usp=sharing

Offline JacksterTopic starter

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Re: HWGC P&P machines - Documentation, Discussion and Info
« Reply #87 on: July 04, 2021, 04:13:25 pm »
HWGC price for NXT electric feeders.

8mm    $240
12mm  $260
16mm  $280
24mm  $380
32mm  $650
44mm  $750


Yea I am sticking with the HW-T8-80F  ;D

Sorted through all the feeders I got. Ended up with;
84x   8mm - large reel
34x   8mm - standard reel
11x   12mm
5x    16mm
4x   24mm

All for $3800.
HWGC wanted $50 per 8mm standard so 80x that is $4,000. Think I did well with that...


The ones in boxes, about 5 need repairing and the rest are for parts. Only 8mm. All other sizes are fine.

Offline 48X24X48X

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We got a silent type compressor for air like: eBay auction: #173975839172, it provides enough air at the right pressure, but the duty cycle is high and it over heats and shuts down so we have another not so silent one daisy chained that we had lying around. We also added an SMC membrane air dryer inline like this on eBay auction: #143480683473 for $55.
Does the SMC air dryer reduces any air pressure before reaching the machine? I currently use a 5 um filter (maybe this is overkill and 40 um is enough) and it ate up 0.1 MPa which I think slightly make the placement process problematic when the air tank went below 0.5 MPa before it starts refilling (so machine gets around 0.4 MPa). Not cheap though the air dryer if it is brand new.

*Update
I just read the SMC IDG datasheet, these dryer has very minimal air pressure drop, hence the price! Also, I noticed your air compressor is 30L, best if 60L and above so it refill less often.
« Last Edit: July 05, 2021, 02:12:49 am by 48X24X48X »
 

Offline blopblop

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Re: HWGC P&P machines - Documentation, Discussion and Info
« Reply #89 on: July 05, 2021, 09:13:55 am »
I'm in the process of buying a PnP machine and I'm lurking on the HW-T6-64F, HW-T8-68F or HW-DU400-64F.
Do you know if the z Axis can be raised on the HW-T6-64F ? 7mm seems low ?
Does the machines have a nozzle change feature ?
Also, where would you recommend to buy it from, XY, Glichn or straight from Beijing Huawei Guochuang ?
Thanks for all the post in this thread, it really helps to have your feedback :D !
« Last Edit: July 05, 2021, 09:17:43 am by blopblop »
 

Offline JacksterTopic starter

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Re: HWGC P&P machines - Documentation, Discussion and Info
« Reply #90 on: July 05, 2021, 10:13:56 am »
I'm in the process of buying a PnP machine and I'm lurking on the HW-T6-64F, HW-T8-68F or HW-DU400-64F.
Do you know if the z Axis can be raised on the HW-T6-64F ? 7mm seems low ?
Does the machines have a nozzle change feature ?
Also, where would you recommend to buy it from, XY, Glichn or straight from Beijing Huawei Guochuang ?
Thanks for all the post in this thread, it really helps to have your feedback :D !

They are all 20mm Z height. 7mm was an error.
Buy from whoever gives you the best deal.

Offline 48X24X48X

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Re: HWGC P&P machines - Documentation, Discussion and Info
« Reply #91 on: July 05, 2021, 12:32:44 pm »
I'm in the process of buying a PnP machine and I'm lurking on the HW-T6-64F, HW-T8-68F or HW-DU400-64F.
Do you know if the z Axis can be raised on the HW-T6-64F ? 7mm seems low ?
Does the machines have a nozzle change feature ?
Also, where would you recommend to buy it from, XY, Glichn or straight from Beijing Huawei Guochuang ?
Thanks for all the post in this thread, it really helps to have your feedback :D !

They are all 20mm Z height. 7mm was an error.
Buy from whoever gives you the best deal.
No, I think 7 mm is correct for maximum component height. I have spoken to the manager of HWGC back in their Shenzhen factory and he mentioned he did close up to 8 mm electrolytic capacitor before. 20 mm is probably the total z-movement. Myself have tried up to 7 mm tactile switch too. Unless you are into tall components, 7 mm is a lot to work for.

Talk to all of them. And buy from who you think you feel most comfortable to deal with. That's the most important thing in doing business than price.

Offline JacksterTopic starter

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Re: HWGC P&P machines - Documentation, Discussion and Info
« Reply #92 on: July 05, 2021, 09:38:44 pm »

7mm is correct for maximum component height. I have spoken to the manager of HWGC back in their Shenzhen factory and he mentioned he did close up to 8 mm electrolytic capacitor before. 20 mm is probably the total z-movement. Myself have tried up to 7 mm tactile switch too. Unless you are into tall components, 7 mm is a lot to work for.


That makes sense. Updated the sheet.

Offline JMG

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Re: HWGC P&P machines - Documentation, Discussion and Info
« Reply #93 on: July 08, 2021, 02:37:14 am »
I fixed my vacuum issue and have had some limited success placing parts. I'd say though that about 60% of 0603's get blown off the board with the little puff of air used to release vacuum. I know this is the issue rather than placement height because on occasion it will move parts next to the one is blown away. Is there a setting anywhere to back this off somewhat?
 

Offline 48X24X48X

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Re: HWGC P&P machines - Documentation, Discussion and Info
« Reply #94 on: July 08, 2021, 02:55:52 am »
I fixed my vacuum issue and have had some limited success placing parts. I'd say though that about 60% of 0603's get blown off the board with the little puff of air used to release vacuum. I know this is the issue rather than placement height because on occasion it will move parts next to the one is blown away. Is there a setting anywhere to back this off somewhat?
What nozzle size are you using? And mind showing one of the feeder configuration of 0603 that has this issue?

Offline 48X24X48X

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For example, do the dimensions include the pins?
What is the sync/pick tolerance?
What is the pick-H pressure offset?

Pick-H offset is basically a distance by how much you want the nozzle to go further down after just touching the feeder. Typical value are 0.3 mm to 0.5 mm. This helps to ensure the nozzle is having a slight press against the component. This is same as the Mount-H offset for the mounting perspective but it is basically to push the components onto the paste. The sync/pick tolerance, a fellow owner here asked me this question before I went to their factory in Beijing, and I actually asked HWGC this question but back then it was for v6 software, so I can't seems to relate it to the current v8 software now. Back then, it was sort of a tolerance for the software to accept the deviation between pick height across all feeders.

HWGC price for NXT electric feeders.

8mm    $240
12mm  $260
16mm  $280
24mm  $380
32mm  $650
44mm  $750

Just checked with my supplier, they are of similar pricing with the Yamaha electric feeder. $155 for the 8 mm. Always check with feeder manufacturer to get the best price. Machine seller will add a big margin.
« Last Edit: July 08, 2021, 03:48:38 pm by 48X24X48X »
 

Offline PartialDischarge

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Re: HWGC P&P machines - Documentation, Discussion and Info
« Reply #96 on: July 08, 2021, 03:01:34 pm »
Overall I'm very happy with the machine. This is the first PnP that I've operated, and I've been able basically alone, to mount medium sized boards, starting from 0. Still there are lots of details about the software that I'd like to learn, but I guess I will as problems arise. The only real problem I had was that I had to increase LED brightness in the Fast Camera from the default value as it was throwing a lot of 0603 components, although maybe lowering the recognition threshold would have been a solution too.

Right now, out of caution and because I like to watch the mount process I limit the mounting XY speed to 30.
 

Offline 48X24X48X

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Re: HWGC P&P machines - Documentation, Discussion and Info
« Reply #97 on: July 08, 2021, 03:47:29 pm »
Overall I'm very happy with the machine. This is the first PnP that I've operated, and I've been able basically alone, to mount medium sized boards, starting from 0. Still there are lots of details about the software that I'd like to learn, but I guess I will as problems arise. The only real problem I had was that I had to increase LED brightness in the Fast Camera from the default value as it was throwing a lot of 0603 components, although maybe lowering the recognition threshold would have been a solution too.

Right now, out of caution and because I like to watch the mount process I limit the mounting XY speed to 30.
The fast LED is best set at 250. These are settings from the old v6.0 software which were solid for me, so I brought it forward to v8.0 that has some values changed (the lead software engineer personally told me to change things like brightness to suit in the newer software). I have set the speed up to 50 but nowadays I just slowed it down to 40 just to admire the process.

Offline JacksterTopic starter

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Just checked with my supplier, they are of similar pricing with the Yamaha electric feeder. $155 for the 8 mm. Always check with feeder manufacturer to get the best price. Machine seller will add a big margin.

Okay, that changes things a bit.

Will have to look into this.


Looks like Charmhigh has had access to these for a while? Found videos from 2018 from them with a similar look of machine with NXT feeders.

Offline 48X24X48X

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Looks like Charmhigh have had access to this model for a few years? Found videos from 2018 from them with similar look with NXT feeders.

Saw this machine when they first release in 2019 August in Shenzhen. It's a very huge machine and expensive too. HWGC do acknowledged them as a good competitor though especially these newer big machine.

Offline JacksterTopic starter

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Looks like Charmhigh have had access to this model for a few years? Found videos from 2018 from them with similar look with NXT feeders.

Saw this machine when they first release in 2019 August in Shenzhen. It's a very huge machine and expensive too. HWGC do acknowledged them as a good competitor though especially these newer big machine.

My view of Charmhigh is slightly tainted from watching Unexpected Maker's video and the trouble he had with them.
Have they stepped up their game since their earlier machines?


Their list price for NXT starts from $185

Offline 48X24X48X

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Looks like Charmhigh have had access to this model for a few years? Found videos from 2018 from them with similar look with NXT feeders.

Saw this machine when they first release in 2019 August in Shenzhen. It's a very huge machine and expensive too. HWGC do acknowledged them as a good competitor though especially these newer big machine.

My view of Charmhigh is slightly tainted from watching Unexpected Maker's video and the trouble he had with them.
Have they stepped up their game since their earlier machines?
I personally asked them on whether they would still make/develop similar sized desktop machine that Seon bought, the answer was a solid NO back in 2019. From there itself, I knew where their effort are being put into. They further add, simply because people wants a proper solid bigger machine nowadays. So, it's hard to say what these newer big machine has to offer.

Offline JacksterTopic starter

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I personally asked them on whether they would still make/develop similar sized desktop machine that Seon bought, the answer was a solid NO back in 2019. From there itself, I knew where their effort are being put into. They further add, simply because people wants a proper solid bigger machine nowadays. So, it's hard to say what these newer big machine has to offer.

Probably not enough money in it. Those desktop ones while physically play, always came with shit software.

I was close to buying one back a couple years ago but held out doing so until I knew w how many components our new products needs.
Glad I did as it is in the 40s and includes fine pitch stuff also.

Offline JMG

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Re: HWGC P&P machines - Documentation, Discussion and Info
« Reply #103 on: July 09, 2021, 04:41:14 pm »
After much fiddling with feeder and vision settings, I've finally, sucessfully, placed over 1600 parts on a run of boards.
 

Offline PartialDischarge

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Re: HWGC P&P machines - Documentation, Discussion and Info
« Reply #104 on: July 09, 2021, 07:57:37 pm »
After much fiddling with feeder and vision settings, I've finally, sucessfully, placed over 1600 parts on a run of boards.
Well tell us about some of those problems so we can all learn...
 


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Re: HWGC P&P machines - Documentation, Discussion and Info
« Reply #106 on: July 11, 2021, 10:13:07 am »
Bad day today. I ignorantly trying to plug in a feeder while machine is running. Damage all 4 nozzle and it's nozzle holder. Anxiously waiting for HWGC support's response tomorrow. Took out the head cover (those bought from YX doesn't come with a cover) and it seems to be doable.

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Re: HWGC P&P machines - Documentation, Discussion and Info
« Reply #107 on: July 11, 2021, 10:37:08 am »
Bad day today. I ignorantly trying to plug in a feeder while machine is running. Damage all 4 nozzle and it's nozzle holder. Anxiously waiting for HWGC support's response tomorrow. Took out the head cover (those bought from YX doesn't come with a cover) and it seems to be doable.

Dammm

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Re: HWGC P&P machines - Documentation, Discussion and Info
« Reply #108 on: July 12, 2021, 09:41:59 am »
YX just got back to me. The shipping on AliExpress is the same free to port.

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Re: HWGC P&P machines - Documentation, Discussion and Info
« Reply #109 on: July 13, 2021, 03:49:21 pm »
I was struggling to get parts to pick up and to place without being blown off the board. I was also having issues with IC's being placed at what appeared to be random angles.

To fix the pick up issue I manually added .75mm extra Z down travel to the pickup height of each feeder. I also slowed up and down travel speed to 35. Placement delay is 20.

To fix the placement issue I measured the board height manually and made my Z down travel 8500 for every part. This meant that the travel in the spring of the nozzle would take up and extra travel that larger components didn't need. Its worked perfectly on over 3000 parts now. Travel speed is 35 up and down. Placement delay is 20.

To fix the IC's being incorrectly placed I picked to the High Cam and adjusted the R to solve the vision system detecting the nozzle as a part and trying to adjust the angle based upon that and not the actual part. For SO8 and smaller R was 185 for each part and for anything larger I used 225. Haven't had a single misplaced IC since.


The only issue I have currently is that it will not adjust placement based on Marks, so I have to manually adjust that for each pcb loaded. It seems to always want to place parts slightly to the left of center. A small price to pay to get product out the door. I can come back to that later.

I do have a concern that it isnt saving all program data and I'm currently running all pcbs of one type until that entire project is complete vs running as many boards as I need to ship and then going to a new program and running as many of those boards  I currently need. I just don't want to go through setting up this project again, there's hundreds of parts on this pcb and I legitimately spent 80+ hours getting it to this stage.
 

Offline 48X24X48X

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Re: HWGC P&P machines - Documentation, Discussion and Info
« Reply #110 on: July 14, 2021, 06:14:12 am »
I was struggling to get parts to pick up and to place without being blown off the board. I was also having issues with IC's being placed at what appeared to be random angles.

To fix the pick up issue I manually added .75mm extra Z down travel to the pickup height of each feeder. I also slowed up and down travel speed to 35. Placement delay is 20.

To fix the placement issue I measured the board height manually and made my Z down travel 8500 for every part. This meant that the travel in the spring of the nozzle would take up and extra travel that larger components didn't need. Its worked perfectly on over 3000 parts now. Travel speed is 35 up and down. Placement delay is 20.

To fix the IC's being incorrectly placed I picked to the High Cam and adjusted the R to solve the vision system detecting the nozzle as a part and trying to adjust the angle based upon that and not the actual part. For SO8 and smaller R was 185 for each part and for anything larger I used 225. Haven't had a single misplaced IC since.


The only issue I have currently is that it will not adjust placement based on Marks, so I have to manually adjust that for each pcb loaded. It seems to always want to place parts slightly to the left of center. A small price to pay to get product out the door. I can come back to that later.

I do have a concern that it isnt saving all program data and I'm currently running all pcbs of one type until that entire project is complete vs running as many boards as I need to ship and then going to a new program and running as many of those boards  I currently need. I just don't want to go through setting up this project again, there's hundreds of parts on this pcb and I legitimately spent 80+ hours getting it to this stage.
I think you probably didn't have the machine properly calibrated (not your fault). By right, out of the box, feeder base height and PCB base height are properly set from factory. The deviation should be very small such that it is negligible when you plug in your feeder or PCB. You can also go to the calibration page, and move the nozzle down to feeder or PCB to see the calibrated values are valid or not. It should touch the feeder and PCB. The offset value should always be around 0.3mm-0.6mm. This is basically the amount of press down you want the nozzle to go down after reaching the theoretical height.

Regarding the accuracy, just ensure during importing data, everything is perfectly centered. I no longer use component as points to translate position on PCB to machine coordinates. Instead, I use 4 fiducial 0.5 mm square inclined at 45 degree at the 4 corners. As the look down camera resolution is not that great, using your components to do the process might not be that accurate which I believe do contribute to these little offset you have mentioned. Once I get my machine repaired, I will do a video on this.

Yes, the angle issue is mitigated by having a proper scan radius accordingly (with check charactors enabled) to the parts size. Use the vision test to see what the camera see. I think I mentioned this before.

I don't quite get your last question.
« Last Edit: July 14, 2021, 06:20:06 am by 48X24X48X »
 

Offline PartialDischarge

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Re: HWGC P&P machines - Documentation, Discussion and Info
« Reply #111 on: July 14, 2021, 08:01:05 am »
One question, the pick up position for components in CL12 feeders is that below the big metal tab, not the position in the clear right after it...
I'm asking because the XY pick up positions in CL8 and CL12 feeders is different by a lot.
 

Offline PartialDischarge

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Re: HWGC P&P machines - Documentation, Discussion and Info
« Reply #112 on: July 14, 2021, 08:06:33 am »
I was struggling to get parts to pick up and to place without being blown off the board. I was also having issues with IC's being placed at what appeared to be random angles.

I also believe that most of your problems are due to bad calibration. I for example run the red circles calibration procedure and created a mess with the nozzles positions. Had to run it a  second time with auto detection to remove the problem. My point is that calibration can be tricky but if done properly it works
 

Offline 48X24X48X

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Re: HWGC P&P machines - Documentation, Discussion and Info
« Reply #113 on: July 14, 2021, 08:23:22 am »
One question, the pick up position for components in CL12 feeders is that below the big metal tab, not the position in the clear right after it...
I'm asking because the XY pick up positions in CL8 and CL12 feeders is different by a lot.
Must be below the metal tab. When the feeder open, that is where the component will be picked when the tab opens. This prevent components from jumping out. In order to make sure the component is at this location, you can advance the tape by hand by 4mm or multiple of it. Just press the metal tab that advances the tape by half way and take note of the metal gear movement at the front. Pressing the metal tab completely will advance the tape by how much you have already set the feeder to advance (4, 8, 12 or 16). Each gear teeth corresponds to 4 mm movement. That will allow you to adjust the component to sit exactly below the metal tab.

Offline PartialDischarge

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Re: HWGC P&P machines - Documentation, Discussion and Info
« Reply #114 on: July 14, 2021, 01:27:23 pm »
Today I was surprised by something. For SOT23 components and others I have to apply a +180 rotation in the PCB list for them to be mounted correctly. However I was surprised to see that some of them did mount correctly and others did not.
Eventually I realised that some of them were placed in the 25...50 feeder locations, so indeed they were already rotated by 180º. I would have thought this kind of logic would be handled by the software,,,., or am I doing something wrong?
« Last Edit: July 14, 2021, 01:30:17 pm by MasterTech »
 

Offline 48X24X48X

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Re: HWGC P&P machines - Documentation, Discussion and Info
« Reply #115 on: July 14, 2021, 01:44:08 pm »
On older V6 software, there's a prompt at the error diagnosis stage asking whether you want to rotate 180 degrees for components at the 26-50 feeders. This seems to be removed on V8 and if I'm not mistaken on the feeder page, there's an "init angle" form at the top right. I believe it is this. Also at the bottom right there's a button for special handling too which has this 180 degree option. I have tried the latter, it doesn't seems to work though. So I guess it could be the former. But I do appreciate the init angle function if it does as what I expected it to do because even on some non trivial components like diode, it could come in reverse direction in the pocket.
 
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Offline JMG

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Re: HWGC P&P machines - Documentation, Discussion and Info
« Reply #116 on: July 14, 2021, 02:07:28 pm »
I believe the machine was completely out of calibration when I got it hence why so many problems. At one point,  now that I know what I'm talking about somewhat, I believe the nozzles on the X where 208mm out.

Today I need to place 150x 144 pin lqfp IC's. This was the main reason I bought the machine because doing this once a month by hand was cruel and unusual punishment 😅

Any guidance on set up? Does the down camera look at the pad location or is everything located based on the local fids?

Is there any way to run this without optimization? I've got around 20 feeders that have parts common with 3 projects and would love to be able to leave them where they are for each project. Seems like a lot of unnecessary work shifting them around, telling the software what part is in which feeder and which location over and over.

Is there a save button anywhere that saves all settings - basically the entire set up for a run? Or does it save automatically in the background each time you make a change somewhere?

« Last Edit: July 14, 2021, 02:12:59 pm by JMG »
 

Offline PartialDischarge

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Re: HWGC P&P machines - Documentation, Discussion and Info
« Reply #117 on: July 14, 2021, 02:11:45 pm »
Indeed there is an option to auto change the back feeders to 180 rotation
 

Offline 48X24X48X

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Re: HWGC P&P machines - Documentation, Discussion and Info
« Reply #118 on: July 14, 2021, 02:34:42 pm »
I believe the machine was completely out of calibration when I got it hence why so many problems. At one point,  now that I know what I'm talking about somewhat, I believe the nozzles on the X where 208mm out.

Today I need to place 150x 144 pin lqfp IC's. This was the main reason I bought the machine because doing this once a month by hand was cruel and unusual punishment 😅

Any guidance on set up? Does the down camera look at the pad location or is everything located based on the local fids?

Is there any way to run this without optimization? I've got around 20 feeders that have parts common with 3 projects and would love to be able to leave them where they are for each project. Seems like a lot of unnecessary work shifting them around, telling the software what part is in which feeder and which location over and over.

Is there a save button anywhere that saves all settings - basically the entire set up for a run? Or does it save automatically in the background each time you make a change somewhere?

Just make sure PCB components centroid files are imported accurately and panel fiducials are done accurately, that's all I could say. There's no rocket science on this.

You can import feeders configuration from other project. It's on the top left corner of the optimization page. That way, you keep what you want. But, this is what I did at first thinking I could save time. But, soon enough I found out the machine would then not being optimized and it slows down your pick and place process. Let the software do the feeder assignment task which I think it does it brilliantly. Just imagine going from 2K cph to 4K cph. That's what it's good at.

There's no save button, everything automatically saved upon keying in parameters.

Offline 48X24X48X

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Re: HWGC P&P machines - Documentation, Discussion and Info
« Reply #119 on: July 16, 2021, 09:57:19 am »
Started dismantling the head after given some tips by HWGC. Replacement parts is in transit to here. Beijing Glichn helped to get the parts over to Beijing as FedEx can't pickup from HWGC's new factory in Shijiazhuang. All 4 rotational motors and the nozzle holder plus nozzles needed to be replaced. The screws are really solid to the point that it has killed 3 Allen key hex screwdrivers. HWGC sending a set Allen key that they used in the factory, just in case the new ones I ordered online sucks as well. I kinda like how easy it is to service the machine as I poke more into it's construction. Hopefully by Monday, I'm able to calibrate these nozzle back and back running.

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Re: HWGC P&P machines - Documentation, Discussion and Info
« Reply #120 on: July 18, 2021, 05:54:13 pm »
Hate to keep bothering you guys for help but I'm struggling with LQFP176 packages. I've gone from not placing anywhere in the neighborhood, and wrong rotation to almost perfect, but I cant get to a point that's acceptable yet. It'll place anywhere from half a pin width to 2 pins off in any one direction but fine in the other direction. This is random and I have no idea what's going on. Is anyone placing large chips? May I ask your settings??
 

Offline 48X24X48X

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Re: HWGC P&P machines - Documentation, Discussion and Info
« Reply #121 on: July 19, 2021, 03:57:57 am »
Make sure the cover is close to achieve more consistent vision result with larger components. Placement height is also very important. Ensure nozzle size also correct for adequate vacuum suction capability, 505 should be alright. And just slow things down first.

Offline PartialDischarge

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Re: HWGC P&P machines - Documentation, Discussion and Info
« Reply #122 on: July 19, 2021, 05:05:10 am »
I would say play with the camera settings, thresholds and light intensity, as this can affect placement at that level.
 

Offline 48X24X48X

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Re: HWGC P&P machines - Documentation, Discussion and Info
« Reply #123 on: July 19, 2021, 02:42:19 pm »
Got my machine all fixed, recalibrated and up and running. Noticed the nozzle holder material has changed and improved for easier plug in.

Offline JanL

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Re: HWGC P&P machines - Documentation, Discussion and Info
« Reply #124 on: July 22, 2021, 06:13:54 am »
One question to those operating the machine: do you use a water separation device or an air drying device between compressor and machine?
 

Offline 48X24X48X

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Re: HWGC P&P machines - Documentation, Discussion and Info
« Reply #125 on: July 22, 2021, 06:41:45 am »
Initially I had a cheap regulator+filter but it proved to be insufficient as the filter was only 40um rated. Water still managed to get into the machine air lines. I had vapor pouring out of feeder slot! Then I bought a 5um regulator+filter from Mindman Taiwan. This is a much better filter and much larger in size. Still I wanted to further improve the air supply although at this stage everything is sort of perfect from the pick and place point of view. So I bought a SMC water separator unit AMG150C which is rated to remove 99% of water. In the future I might add a dryer from SMC too but that's a bit expensive for now. Just take note of the possible drop these devices might add to your line by carefully choosing them. Also be very diligently draining out any water from your tank as frequent as possible.The HWGC guy warned me: the air is the most important aspect of the machine if you want perfect pick and place process.
« Last Edit: July 22, 2021, 06:44:16 am by 48X24X48X »
 

Offline PartialDischarge

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Re: HWGC P&P machines - Documentation, Discussion and Info
« Reply #126 on: July 22, 2021, 06:54:57 am »
One question to those operating the machine: do you use a water separation device or an air drying device between compressor and machine?
I do have a normal one, but I believe the humidity of your region is what should define your effort here, where I live it is dry most of the year, 39% now, compared to 78% in Berlin or 60% in Singapore.
 

Offline JanL

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Re: HWGC P&P machines - Documentation, Discussion and Info
« Reply #127 on: July 22, 2021, 07:03:33 am »
Thank you. As I will operate the machine at room temparature I do not expect some cold spots where water will condense. I will start with a separator first, as drying devices are quiet expensive.
 

Offline JMG

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Re: HWGC P&P machines - Documentation, Discussion and Info
« Reply #128 on: August 02, 2021, 07:26:55 pm »
Customer supplied a pick n place file with 0,0 co-ords at the top left. Is there an option somewhere on the machine to transpose that to bottom left? Machine thinks the board is 180 degrees out.
 

Offline 48X24X48X

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Re: HWGC P&P machines - Documentation, Discussion and Info
« Reply #129 on: August 03, 2021, 02:44:58 am »
The machine doesn't care where the origin is on your file. When you assign the 4-point for the coordinate translation from PCB coordinate to machine coordinate, it will inform you if it 180 degree rotated based on the 4-point. So, the 4-point that you choose must be correctly positioned (top-left, bottom-left, top-right and bottom-right).

Offline JMG

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Re: HWGC P&P machines - Documentation, Discussion and Info
« Reply #130 on: August 26, 2021, 11:14:58 pm »
IF PEOPLE COULD STOP PRIVATE MESSAGING ME ASKING FOR ME TO ILLEGALLY GIVE THEM A COPY OF THIS SOFTWARE, SO THEY CAN ADMITTEDLY DISSASSEMBLE IT AND CREATE A VERSION OF THEIR OWN, THAT WOULD BE AWESOME. THANKS!

 

Offline 48X24X48X

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Re: HWGC P&P machines - Documentation, Discussion and Info
« Reply #131 on: August 27, 2021, 12:34:45 pm »
IF PEOPLE COULD STOP PRIVATE MESSAGING ME ASKING FOR ME TO ILLEGALLY GIVE THEM A COPY OF THIS SOFTWARE, SO THEY CAN ADMITTEDLY DISSASSEMBLE IT AND CREATE A VERSION OF THEIR OWN, THAT WOULD BE AWESOME. THANKS!


I thought people always said that software made by Chinese companies are no good, so bad that they wouldn't even go near their product, let alone copying their software.  ;D
 
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Offline alexaraujo

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Re: YX SMT660 SMT880 P&P machines
« Reply #132 on: September 05, 2021, 06:00:38 pm »
Do not be discouraged.

The 110V mod is likely to be a 110/220V, 3KVA step-up transformer, a commercial, nicely packaged toroidal unit.  That's what I got and used until I ran a direct line from my AC panel.  The Panasonic drive electronics and servo motors come in 120 and 240 volt versions.  The 660 uses the higher voltage and perhaps the 3 top models all do it for inventory reasons.  There are two switching power supplies and they like the PC and monitor can take either voltage although they are not auto switching.

Fifteen feeders is great to be thrown in for a 550.  I got 15 for a 660 and was offered 25 for an 880.   In the end, when  stuffed boards come out of the machine its all worth it.

Are you dealing with Jim Jiang at YX?
.

I'm closing a purchase hwgc that has a model like smt660, could you send photos of your modifications please?
 

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Re: HWGC P&P machines - Documentation, Discussion and Info
« Reply #133 on: September 05, 2021, 06:04:31 pm »
John Plocher, had several small problems with the smt550, as per your videos on youtube, did you have it too?

 

Offline 48X24X48X

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Re: HWGC P&P machines - Documentation, Discussion and Info
« Reply #134 on: September 23, 2021, 03:33:35 am »
Tried using a 0.4mm pitch QFN48 today and here's the outcome without any adhesive tape!

I believe the machine was completely out of calibration when I got it hence why so many problems. At one point,  now that I know what I'm talking about somewhat, I believe the nozzles on the X where 208mm out.

Today I need to place 150x 144 pin lqfp IC's. This was the main reason I bought the machine because doing this once a month by hand was cruel and unusual punishment 😅

Any guidance on set up? Does the down camera look at the pad location or is everything located based on the local fids?

Is there any way to run this without optimization? I've got around 20 feeders that have parts common with 3 projects and would love to be able to leave them where they are for each project. Seems like a lot of unnecessary work shifting them around, telling the software what part is in which feeder and which location over and over.

Is there a save button anywhere that saves all settings - basically the entire set up for a run? Or does it save automatically in the background each time you make a change somewhere?


If you still have the LQFP inaccuracy issues:
  • Set the vision model to close loop 2nd order or the last option if using high resolution camera. As of the new software released few months ago, stop using open loop on anything including the jelly beans parts, it will be removed in future releases.
  • Pick the components for visual test, click on visual debug and you can see the real time camera interpretation on the components like X & Y size and angle. Play with the threshold value until you see X & Y dimension is as close as your real component dimension (can be down to 0.01mm)

Currently working on a series of video tutorial. Too many people nagging me to make one.  ;D
« Last Edit: September 23, 2021, 03:41:03 am by 48X24X48X »
 

Offline 48X24X48X

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Re: HWGC P&P machines - Documentation, Discussion and Info
« Reply #135 on: September 30, 2021, 10:11:16 am »
Posted part 1 of the machine tutorial:

Sorry for the lack of mouse cursor, promise they will show up in the following part.
« Last Edit: October 04, 2021, 03:39:52 am by 48X24X48X »
 
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Offline alexaraujo

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Re: HWGC P&P machines - Documentation, Discussion and Info
« Reply #136 on: September 30, 2021, 02:01:16 pm »
Posted part 1 of the machine tutorial:

https://youtu.be/D8Ai-YlF4kE

Sorry for the lack of mouse cursor, promise they will show up in the following part.

You became my idol...hahaha.
When you come to São Paulo, I'll pay you Brazilian barbecue at Fogo de Chão ;D
 

Offline PartialDischarge

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Re: HWGC P&P machines - Documentation, Discussion and Info
« Reply #137 on: October 01, 2021, 06:40:31 pm »
Posted part 1 of the machine tutorial:

https://youtu.be/D8Ai-YlF4kE

Sorry for the lack of mouse cursor, promise they will show up in the following part.

Good introduction, demonstrates that overall the machine is not that difficult to use. I was able to put it to work without having experience in any PnP.
I like those smallish square fiducials....
 

Offline 48X24X48X

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Re: HWGC P&P machines - Documentation, Discussion and Info
« Reply #138 on: October 02, 2021, 07:02:12 am »
You became my idol...hahaha.
When you come to São Paulo, I'll pay you Brazilian barbecue at Fogo de Chão ;D
You better get ready some tickets to Sepultura or Cavalera Conspiracy show if I ever had the chance to go to Brazil.  ;D

Good introduction, demonstrates that overall the machine is not that difficult to use. I was able to put it to work without having experience in any PnP.
I like those smallish square fiducials....
Thanks. Yeah, the machine is pretty easy to use and the software is intuitive (at least to me) with only certain things sort of cryptic in the beginning but once you know them, it's very repeatable and consistent. That square fiducials are 0.5 mm in diameter and rotated 45° so it aligned with the cross-hair cursor at the edges. I figured this out quite early on that the normal circle 1 mm fiducial or component center wouldn't be accurate enough due to the resolution of the look down camera and of course our eyes.

Offline alexaraujo

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Re: HWGC P&P machines - Documentation, Discussion and Info
« Reply #139 on: October 02, 2021, 01:55:27 pm »
You became my idol...hahaha.
When you come to São Paulo, I'll pay you Brazilian barbecue at Fogo de Chão ;D
You better get ready some tickets to Sepultura or Cavalera Conspiracy show if I ever had the chance to go to Brazil.  ;D

Good introduction, demonstrates that overall the machine is not that difficult to use. I was able to put it to work without having experience in any PnP.
I like those smallish square fiducials....
Thanks. Yeah, the machine is pretty easy to use and the software is intuitive (at least to me) with only certain things sort of cryptic in the beginning but once you know them, it's very repeatable and consistent. That square fiducials are 0.5 mm in diameter and rotated 45° so it aligned with the cross-hair cursor at the edges. I figured this out quite early on that the normal circle 1 mm fiducial or component center wouldn't be accurate enough due to the resolution of the look down camera and of course our eyes.

Sepultura's concert only at Rock In Rio 2022 in September.
Death metal isn't really my thing, but we've been together for a while now that I haven't been to Rio de Janeiro.

Today I use 1mm round Fiducials and I'm actually going to switch to using your method which I thought is really more accurate.
 

Offline PartialDischarge

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Re: HWGC P&P machines - Documentation, Discussion and Info
« Reply #140 on: October 03, 2021, 11:23:39 am »
What is the accessory this machine is picking from at 1:27?


« Last Edit: October 03, 2021, 11:53:46 am by MasterTech »
 

Offline lutkeveld

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Re: HWGC P&P machines - Documentation, Discussion and Info
« Reply #141 on: October 03, 2021, 02:08:26 pm »
Vibration feeder. Used for chips that are delivered in tubes. It picks one up, then due to the vibration, a new one will slide into the empty slot again.
 

Offline 48X24X48X

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Re: HWGC P&P machines - Documentation, Discussion and Info
« Reply #142 on: October 03, 2021, 03:00:27 pm »
What is the accessory this machine is picking from at 1:27?
You have never used a vibration feeder before? As cheap as $100 for 3 lane version.

Offline PartialDischarge

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Re: HWGC P&P machines - Documentation, Discussion and Info
« Reply #143 on: October 03, 2021, 04:00:35 pm »
You have never used a vibration feeder before? As cheap as $100 for 3 lane version.
No, the chips I have in tubes are placed manually. I prefer to have the slots available for 8 and 12mm feeders. Maybe when/if I have the 80 feeders version.
 

Offline 48X24X48X

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Re: HWGC P&P machines - Documentation, Discussion and Info
« Reply #144 on: October 04, 2021, 02:21:59 am »
You have never used a vibration feeder before? As cheap as $100 for 3 lane version.
No, the chips I have in tubes are placed manually. I prefer to have the slots available for 8 and 12mm feeders. Maybe when/if I have the 80 feeders version.
Okay, that's a valid reason but it's a nice to have option especially during this part shortage time, I take whatever packaging that is available. For example, I got my memory from Winbond directly and it comes in tubes, cut tape (it's mad they pre-cut them into 10s), tray and full reel. I had no choice but to get the tube form as the rest doesn't make sense (full reel is too much for me, tray eat up my tray area for other IC). I used the vibration tubes for SOIC and connectors (when there's no tape tooling readily available) mostly but sometimes I even used it for smaller IC like MSOP and TSSOP when supply in tapes comes in hard. I purchase various sizes of 2nd hand tubes off Taobao for these purposes and they are cheap. Vibration feeder also makes sense if the CL feeder drain depth is too little compared to the component height.

Offline alexaraujo

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Re: HWGC P&P machines - Documentation, Discussion and Info
« Reply #145 on: October 04, 2021, 12:21:23 pm »
Below is the picture of my compressor with the data is it enough to play Pnp hw-t6sg-64F?By his specification to be sufficient, however I believe that a little weak during the day I feel a loss of pressure in my pneumatic line.

I would also like to see the filters and water separator you used, could someone take a picture of your pneumatic infrastructure so I can adapt mine?
 

Offline PartialDischarge

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Re: HWGC P&P machines - Documentation, Discussion and Info
« Reply #146 on: October 05, 2021, 03:17:29 pm »
Below is the picture of my compressor with the data is it enough to play Pnp hw-t6sg-64F?By his specification to be sufficient, however I believe that a little weak during the day I feel a loss of pressure in my pneumatic line.
The one I use charges to 8bar and has 125L/min and is absolutely fine so yours is a beast
 

Offline alexaraujo

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Re: HWGC P&P machines - Documentation, Discussion and Info
« Reply #147 on: October 05, 2021, 09:05:54 pm »
Below is the picture of my compressor with the data is it enough to play Pnp hw-t6sg-64F?By his specification to be sufficient, however I believe that a little weak during the day I feel a loss of pressure in my pneumatic line.
The one I use charges to 8bar and has 125L/min and is absolutely fine so yours is a beast

the problem that I have two machining centers on this line and as I don't have a water dryer is also a problem
 

Offline PartialDischarge

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Re: HWGC P&P machines - Documentation, Discussion and Info
« Reply #148 on: October 05, 2021, 09:21:44 pm »
Probably can be shared, but a humidity trap is a must in SP
 

Offline vstrulev

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Re: HWGC P&P machines - Documentation, Discussion and Info
« Reply #149 on: October 15, 2021, 12:40:55 am »
Thank you very much guys for an excellent information, provided. By reading all of it, I was able to make, what I think, a right choice of the machine. Thank you all. Greatly appreciated.
 

Offline JMG

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Re: HWGC P&P machines - Documentation, Discussion and Info
« Reply #150 on: October 19, 2021, 02:09:04 pm »
Hi folks, quick update. Machine has been running ok for the most part. It seems to loose accuracy from board to board on some parts but is generally ok. However, over night last night, the hard drive died. Hoping Jim can get me back on line quickly. I knew I should have copied the drive on day one!  :palm:
 

Offline 48X24X48X

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Re: HWGC P&P machines - Documentation, Discussion and Info
« Reply #151 on: October 19, 2021, 02:11:43 pm »
Hi folks, quick update. Machine has been running ok for the most part. It seems to loose accuracy from board to board on some parts but is generally ok. However, over night last night, the hard drive died. Hoping Jim can get me back on line quickly. I knew I should have copied the drive on day one!  :palm:
Thank you for reminding us.  ;D
I believe the monitor is 2nd hand IBM/Lenovo (due to the 4:3 aspect ratio no longer available on market) and it's possible the HDD too.

Offline JMG

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Re: HWGC P&P machines - Documentation, Discussion and Info
« Reply #152 on: October 19, 2021, 02:17:59 pm »
Yep, second hand Lenovo, but the actual computer looks new and up to date. Quite impressed actually. The HD was a 100gb unit, no name that I recognize.
That drive copying was always on my to do list but I constantly put it off because there was always production to be ran and customers calling for product early. Machine was running 6 - 7 days a week for several months.
 

Offline PartialDischarge

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Re: HWGC P&P machines - Documentation, Discussion and Info
« Reply #153 on: October 19, 2021, 04:14:47 pm »
Never opened the PC panel, so I just did. So what would be the best choice for a backup? I'm tempted to take the HDD to a linux machine and do a direct dump to another, but maybe the easiest is to install another in this machine and use a Windows software to make the clone. Ideas?

Edit, my drive is 120Gb...
« Last Edit: October 19, 2021, 04:30:24 pm by MasterTech »
 

Offline 48X24X48X

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Re: HWGC P&P machines - Documentation, Discussion and Info
« Reply #154 on: October 20, 2021, 01:17:42 am »
I think I would just copy the SMT program files folder and your project files for now. Probably would need their help in terms of drivers if getting a new HDD later.
In the HWGC software, there's also a unique key specific to your machine, keep that too. But, easiest way would be duplicating the HDD content but need to do some research on that for a correct way to do it, I'm on Linux too.

Offline PartialDischarge

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Re: HWGC P&P machines - Documentation, Discussion and Info
« Reply #155 on: October 20, 2021, 01:26:32 am »
Dd is the easiest way to clone a disk
https://linuxhint.com/clone-disk-using-dd-linux/


Also possible to create image file from a disk to restore later:
https://www.cyberciti.biz/faq/unix-linux-dd-create-make-disk-image-commands/

« Last Edit: October 20, 2021, 06:46:26 am by MasterTech »
 

Offline JMG

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Re: HWGC P&P machines - Documentation, Discussion and Info
« Reply #156 on: October 20, 2021, 05:32:36 am »
Clonezilla or Macrium and just clone the drive.
 

Offline JMG

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Re: HWGC P&P machines - Documentation, Discussion and Info
« Reply #157 on: October 20, 2021, 05:41:00 am »
Thinking - if someone could clone their drive and we have a copy available within the community, that would be a nice safety blanket.
At least everyone should copy and back up their license key and parameter files, just in case. I was lucky enough to have the drive live for long enough to copy those.
 

Offline JacksterTopic starter

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Re: HWGC P&P machines - Documentation, Discussion and Info
« Reply #158 on: October 21, 2021, 01:48:09 pm »
IF PEOPLE COULD STOP PRIVATE MESSAGING ME ASKING FOR ME TO ILLEGALLY GIVE THEM A COPY OF THIS SOFTWARE, SO THEY CAN ADMITTEDLY DISSASSEMBLE IT AND CREATE A VERSION OF THEIR OWN, THAT WOULD BE AWESOME. THANKS!

Thinking - if someone could clone their drive and we have a copy available within the community, that would be a nice safety blanket.
At least everyone should copy and back up their license key and parameter files, just in case. I was lucky enough to have the drive live for long enough to copy those.


If only there was a copy of the software flying around without hardware locks on it....



Offline JMG

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Re: HWGC P&P machines - Documentation, Discussion and Info
« Reply #159 on: October 21, 2021, 04:00:57 pm »
With the hardware locks, an image within the community would still need to go through Jim to be able to be used. If you cant provide him (her?) with a device code, he aint gonna provide you with a registration key.
 

Offline JMG

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Re: HWGC P&P machines - Documentation, Discussion and Info
« Reply #160 on: October 28, 2021, 08:00:04 pm »
Quick update: Still not running.

It took FOREVER to get Win7 64 to accept cd/dvd/usb drivers to actually install. Now, I am having issues with the main SMT placement program, it fails with a cant find moon_boxes.dll which is installed and located exactly where it should be. I also cant load pcie drivers because there is a signing error. I cant update the .net framework because it reports that the root certificate is bad yet I pulled this right off the MS website, and finally I cant get the fast cam driver from their link because apparently whatever they've created in the file is in violation of Google Drives terms of service and its inaccessible.

As for Jim, well, after saying they can no longer help and I should find someone in my own country, has stopped answering emails. I have begged for a clone image of a working drive and have offered to pay. Crickets.

Also to note, they seem to use an unregistered copy of windows and seem to have some work around that stops it asking for you to register it. Knowing this makes me a lot less resistant to someone copying and hacking their software.

At this point, I own a $13000, 5 month old, 450lb brick that is costing me money in lost production every single day. F 'em. Copy their damn software.

 

Offline MR

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Re: HWGC P&P machines - Documentation, Discussion and Info
« Reply #161 on: October 28, 2021, 11:18:54 pm »
Start Windows with signature disabled for testing? Turn on PC press F8 -> allow unsigned drivers to load
 

Offline 48X24X48X

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Re: HWGC P&P machines - Documentation, Discussion and Info
« Reply #162 on: October 29, 2021, 12:29:57 am »
Quote
Quick update: Still not running.

It took FOREVER to get Win7 64 to accept cd/dvd/usb drivers to actually install. Now, I am having issues with the main SMT placement program, it fails with a cant find moon_boxes.dll which is installed and located exactly where it should be. I also cant load pcie drivers because there is a signing error. I cant update the .net framework because it reports that the root certificate is bad yet I pulled this right off the MS website, and finally I cant get the fast cam driver from their link because apparently whatever they've created in the file is in violation of Google Drives terms of service and its inaccessible.

As for Jim, well, after saying they can no longer help and I should find someone in my own country, has stopped answering emails. I have begged for a clone image of a working drive and have offered to pay. Crickets.

Also to note, they seem to use an unregistered copy of windows and seem to have some work around that stops it asking for you to register it. Knowing this makes me a lot less resistant to someone copying and hacking their software.

At this point, I own a $13000, 5 month old, 450lb brick that is costing me money in lost production every single day. F 'em. Copy their damn software.
Hang on friend, managed to get my contacts in HWGC to help. Drop me a PM.
« Last Edit: October 29, 2021, 12:37:04 am by 48X24X48X »
 

Offline JMG

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Re: HWGC P&P machines - Documentation, Discussion and Info
« Reply #163 on: October 29, 2021, 02:25:18 am »
Start Windows with signature disabled for testing? Turn on PC press F8 -> allow unsigned drivers to load

Did both that and the permanent disable via gpedit. Made zero difference.
 

Offline JMG

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Re: HWGC P&P machines - Documentation, Discussion and Info
« Reply #164 on: October 29, 2021, 02:25:55 am »
Quote
Quick update: Still not running.

It took FOREVER to get Win7 64 to accept cd/dvd/usb drivers to actually install. Now, I am having issues with the main SMT placement program, it fails with a cant find moon_boxes.dll which is installed and located exactly where it should be. I also cant load pcie drivers because there is a signing error. I cant update the .net framework because it reports that the root certificate is bad yet I pulled this right off the MS website, and finally I cant get the fast cam driver from their link because apparently whatever they've created in the file is in violation of Google Drives terms of service and its inaccessible.

As for Jim, well, after saying they can no longer help and I should find someone in my own country, has stopped answering emails. I have begged for a clone image of a working drive and have offered to pay. Crickets.

Also to note, they seem to use an unregistered copy of windows and seem to have some work around that stops it asking for you to register it. Knowing this makes me a lot less resistant to someone copying and hacking their software.

At this point, I own a $13000, 5 month old, 450lb brick that is costing me money in lost production every single day. F 'em. Copy their damn software.
Hang on friend, managed to get my contacts in HWGC to help. Drop me a PM.

Incoming PM.
 

Offline koniu12

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Re: HWGC P&P machines - Documentation, Discussion and Info
« Reply #165 on: November 03, 2021, 08:14:24 am »
Hello,

I have got the 8.8.0 software version. But after re-install and import the parameter (calibration files backup), the language changes to chinese and there is no way to change it to english...???
Any idea ?

Best Regards
Adam
« Last Edit: November 03, 2021, 09:54:39 am by koniu12 »
 

Offline 48X24X48X

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Re: HWGC P&P machines - Documentation, Discussion and Info
« Reply #166 on: November 03, 2021, 01:05:44 pm »
Hello,

I have got the 8.8.0 software version. But after re-install and import the parameter (calibration files backup), the language changes to chinese and there is no way to change it to english...???
Any idea ?

Best Regards
Adam

You could opt take out your phone and use the instant Google translation through the camera. But, if you haven't:

Offline alexaraujo

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Re: HWGC P&P machines - Documentation, Discussion and Info
« Reply #167 on: November 03, 2021, 02:34:17 pm »
Hello,

I have got the 8.8.0 software version. But after re-install and import the parameter (calibration files backup), the language changes to chinese and there is no way to change it to english...???
Any idea ?

Best Regards
Adam

You could opt take out your phone and use the instant Google translation through the camera. But, if you haven't:

In this version 8 were there improvements or was it to fix bugs?
 

Offline alexaraujo

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Re: HWGC P&P machines - Documentation, Discussion and Info
« Reply #168 on: November 03, 2021, 02:36:22 pm »
Quote
Quick update: Still not running.

It took FOREVER to get Win7 64 to accept cd/dvd/usb drivers to actually install. Now, I am having issues with the main SMT placement program, it fails with a cant find moon_boxes.dll which is installed and located exactly where it should be. I also cant load pcie drivers because there is a signing error. I cant update the .net framework because it reports that the root certificate is bad yet I pulled this right off the MS website, and finally I cant get the fast cam driver from their link because apparently whatever they've created in the file is in violation of Google Drives terms of service and its inaccessible.

As for Jim, well, after saying they can no longer help and I should find someone in my own country, has stopped answering emails. I have begged for a clone image of a working drive and have offered to pay. Crickets.

Also to note, they seem to use an unregistered copy of windows and seem to have some work around that stops it asking for you to register it. Knowing this makes me a lot less resistant to someone copying and hacking their software.

At this point, I own a $13000, 5 month old, 450lb brick that is costing me money in lost production every single day. F 'em. Copy their damn software.
Hang on friend, managed to get my contacts in HWGC to help. Drop me a PM.

Incoming PM.

Hi, could you let me know if you managed to get the machine running again?
 

Offline alexaraujo

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Re: HWGC P&P machines - Documentation, Discussion and Info
« Reply #169 on: November 07, 2021, 07:38:29 pm »
Hello,

I have got the 8.8.0 software version. But after re-install and import the parameter (calibration files backup), the language changes to chinese and there is no way to change it to english...???
Any idea ?

Best Regards
Adam

Did you see that the HWGC people are using their great youtube post to help us out?


« Last Edit: November 07, 2021, 07:41:20 pm by alexaraujo »
 

Offline 48X24X48X

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Re: HWGC P&P machines - Documentation, Discussion and Info
« Reply #170 on: November 08, 2021, 12:36:37 am »
Hello,

I have got the 8.8.0 software version. But after re-install and import the parameter (calibration files backup), the language changes to chinese and there is no way to change it to english...???
Any idea ?

Best Regards
Adam

Did you see that the HWGC people are using their great youtube post to help us out?

Friend, I'm not affiliated to HWGC. Just helping out everyone whenever I can.
Currently editing the part 2 of the video.

Offline alexaraujo

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Re: HWGC P&P machines - Documentation, Discussion and Info
« Reply #171 on: November 08, 2021, 01:06:15 am »
Hello,

I have got the 8.8.0 software version. But after re-install and import the parameter (calibration files backup), the language changes to chinese and there is no way to change it to english...???
Any idea ?

Best Regards
Adam

Did you see that the HWGC people are using their great youtube post to help us out?

Friend, I'm not affiliated to HWGC. Just helping out everyone whenever I can.
Currently editing the part 2 of the video.

You've been doing a really good job with your videos and helping us learn the machine's workflow.

I hope HWGC asked for your authorization, that would be correct of them, last month I contacted HWGC and asked for authorization to use one of their videos to carry out internal marketing on the acquisition of new machines to increase our productivity, I quickly got authorization;

I didn't forget your tickets, when you come to Brazil call me.

« Last Edit: November 08, 2021, 01:08:41 am by alexaraujo »
 

Offline 48X24X48X

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Re: HWGC P&P machines - Documentation, Discussion and Info
« Reply #172 on: November 08, 2021, 09:27:22 am »
Hello,

I have got the 8.8.0 software version. But after re-install and import the parameter (calibration files backup), the language changes to chinese and there is no way to change it to english...???
Any idea ?

Best Regards
Adam

Did you see that the HWGC people are using their great youtube post to help us out?

I didn't notice he blatantly re-uploaded my video until I re-read your comment and added his stamp mark all over it. Never even ask any permission. Requested YT to remove it. There's too many of them claiming to be HWGC. Thank you for informing.

Offline 48X24X48X

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Re: HWGC P&P machines - Documentation, Discussion and Info
« Reply #173 on: November 08, 2021, 09:46:46 am »
Today's shopping haul:
- 3x 8 mm electrical feeder (comes with converter cable if your machine uses 2 pin connection, works without conversion on HWGC machine)
- 1x 44 mm pneumatic feeder. Needed 2 but couldn't afford 2, ended up with 1.
- 1x splicing tool (those you seen used on DigiReel/MouserReel). Wanted this for so long but I considered them expensive as I sparingly splice tapes but now I can save $7 on each re-reel bought from Digikey, Microchip Direct and LCSC ($3).
- 1x box of splicing connector (4000K inside!, will never finish in my life). Already using the adhesive type but it's not reliable on plastic tapes.

Total damage is close to $1000 excluding the shipping which I used my own FedEx account.







« Last Edit: November 08, 2021, 09:51:22 am by 48X24X48X »
 

Offline alexaraujo

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Re: HWGC P&P machines - Documentation, Discussion and Info
« Reply #174 on: November 14, 2021, 10:38:48 pm »
Hello,

I have got the 8.8.0 software version. But after re-install and import the parameter (calibration files backup), the language changes to chinese and there is no way to change it to english...???
Any idea ?

Best Regards
Adam

Did you see that the HWGC people are using their great youtube post to help us out?

I didn't notice he blatantly re-uploaded my video until I re-read your comment and added his stamp mark all over it. Never even ask any permission. Requested YT to remove it. There's too many of them claiming to be HWGC. Thank you for informing.
.

Another video with quality and well explained, many here will be grateful for your help. Thank you again.

 
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Offline 48X24X48X

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Re: HWGC P&P machines - Documentation, Discussion and Info
« Reply #175 on: November 17, 2021, 04:36:32 am »
Just finish a panel with 0.4 mm pitch QFN-48. Finished shooting the video and currently editing. Will show the machine running the entire job.
Only couple of LED misplaced which was caused by the pneumatic feeder. Will swap them with the electrical feeder as I just bought 3 more.
 
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Offline koniu12

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Re: HWGC P&P machines - Documentation, Discussion and Info
« Reply #176 on: December 03, 2021, 11:15:01 am »
Here the software 8.8.0 : https://1drv.ms/u/s!AlpDZk9rY8_xavWN6vaTOT1QKhM?e=FHBGX4
If you have language problem, so restart the software few times.
Dont import the calibration, it changes to Chinese again.
I have made a new calibration of the machine without an import of the calibration file.
 
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Offline JacksterTopic starter

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Re: HWGC P&P machines - Documentation, Discussion and Info
« Reply #177 on: December 03, 2021, 11:53:09 am »
Here the software 8.8.0 : https://1drv.ms/u/s!AlpDZk9rY8_xavWN6vaTOT1QKhM?e=FHBGX4
If you have language problem, so restart the software few times.
Dont import the calibration, it changes to Chinese again.
I have made a new calibration of the machine without an import of the calibration file.

Thank you!

Already a few flags but look to be nothing major. Still not opening it on my main PC for sure xD
Will start to take a look into the software today. See what I can find.

Offline 48X24X48X

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Re: HWGC P&P machines - Documentation, Discussion and Info
« Reply #178 on: December 03, 2021, 11:58:14 am »
Not too sure why you are sharing the software in public domain. It should be exclusive to machine owners.
« Last Edit: December 03, 2021, 12:03:26 pm by 48X24X48X »
 

Offline JacksterTopic starter

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Re: HWGC P&P machines - Documentation, Discussion and Info
« Reply #179 on: December 03, 2021, 12:21:44 pm »
Not too sure why you are sharing the software in public domain. It should be exclusive to machine owners.

It is only for educational purposes. Not like we are here repacking the software to sell.
That and we can take a look at it and see what it is like before buying. Maybe even make improvements for those that do own it.

Offline koniu12

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Re: HWGC P&P machines - Documentation, Discussion and Info
« Reply #180 on: December 03, 2021, 03:34:37 pm »
I have asked the producer ! He gave me a "green light".
Probably can somebody find a problem with the language.
New calibration takes a lot of time...
« Last Edit: December 03, 2021, 03:37:36 pm by koniu12 »
 

Offline JacksterTopic starter

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Re: HWGC P&P machines - Documentation, Discussion and Info
« Reply #181 on: December 03, 2021, 03:44:07 pm »
It has a trial mode to lock out users who don't "own" the machine.
So it is not like they are not preventing people from using it.



Anyone able to confirm that they are using Goldvision or/and Jovision capture cards for the cameras? If so, it will a fun time trying to find a replacement...

I decompiled the main executable and currently sifting through it. The registration lock looks to be hardware ID encoded so even if you were to give out your registration key, that key only works for your hardware.
Code: [Select]
public string getDeviceSerialCode()
{
ManagementClass managementClass = new ManagementClass("Win32_Processor");
ManagementObjectCollection instances = managementClass.GetInstances();
string text = null;
using (ManagementObjectCollection.ManagementObjectEnumerator managementObjectEnumerator = instances.GetEnumerator())
{
if (managementObjectEnumerator.MoveNext())
{
ManagementObject managementObject = (ManagementObject)managementObjectEnumerator.Current;
text = managementObject.Properties["ProcessorId"].Value.ToString();
}
}
managementClass = new ManagementClass("Win32_BaseBoard");
instances = managementClass.GetInstances();
string text2 = null;
using (ManagementObjectCollection.ManagementObjectEnumerator managementObjectEnumerator2 = instances.GetEnumerator())
{
if (managementObjectEnumerator2.MoveNext())
{
ManagementObject managementObject2 = (ManagementObject)managementObjectEnumerator2.Current;
text2 = managementObject2.Properties["SerialNumber"].Value.ToString();
}
}
managementClass = new ManagementClass("Win32_PhysicalMedia");
instances = managementClass.GetInstances();
string text3 = null;
using (ManagementObjectCollection.ManagementObjectEnumerator managementObjectEnumerator3 = instances.GetEnumerator())
{
if (managementObjectEnumerator3.MoveNext())
{
ManagementObject managementObject3 = (ManagementObject)managementObjectEnumerator3.Current;
text3 = managementObject3.Properties["SerialNumber"].Value.ToString();
}
}
managementClass = new ManagementClass("Win32_BIOS");
instances = managementClass.GetInstances();
string text4 = null;
using (ManagementObjectCollection.ManagementObjectEnumerator managementObjectEnumerator4 = instances.GetEnumerator())
{
if (managementObjectEnumerator4.MoveNext())
{
ManagementObject managementObject4 = (ManagementObject)managementObjectEnumerator4.Current;
text4 = managementObject4.Properties["SerialNumber"].Value.ToString();
}
}
return text + "-" + text2 + "-" + text3 + "-" + text4;
}
That being said, not that hard to generate new hardware IDs or fool programs into believing it is another ID.
This means if you have an issue with the hardware and the vendor is not helping, having your original hardware IDs on hand and registration keys would allow you to put new hardware in and get everything back up and running.
It is being handled by the "moon_boxes.dll" so I am having a look through that now, but my skill set does not cover this sort of thing.
Code: [Select]
[DllImport("moon_boxes.dll", CallingConvention = CallingConvention.Cdecl)]
public static extern int moon_wind_checkget_software_state(ref byte ktime, ref byte is_h);

[DllImport("moon_boxes.dll", CallingConvention = CallingConvention.Cdecl)]
public static extern int moon_wind_set_key(string key, int size);

[DllImport("moon_boxes.dll", CallingConvention = CallingConvention.Cdecl)]
public static extern int moon_wind_get_key(ref byte key);

[DllImport("moon_boxes.dll", CallingConvention = CallingConvention.Cdecl)]
public static extern int moon_set_wind_devcode(string code, ref byte out_code, int size);

[DllImport("moon_boxes.dll", CallingConvention = CallingConvention.Cdecl)]
public static extern int moon_get_wind_devcode(ref byte out_code);

Does anyone else's "Device Code" look like this format?



https://github.com/HWGC-P-P/8.8.0-decompiled



Note that I am getting a few red flags on the EXEs
Though this is probably down to some of the hardware calls it tries to make at launch. (not an expert at this stuff so pinch of salt)
https://www.virustotal.com/gui/file/94ac80b8ef457a74a5d5d9683bd205abaadfa0ae7e23f449153f71ed822dd17c/detection
https://www.virustotal.com/gui/file/03ce766aee5457035521bc04c49d59207562ee4c48646d19097f89551c2e493a/detection
https://www.virustotal.com/gui/file/734910538826b11d1fbce230a174c788308638aecb663ca40c71e2e82af81c63/detection



7PM Update
So looks like keys have a time and date set. Basically, if you have an old key prior to 2019, they ask for you to contact support for a new one.
If you have a key the lasts longer than 2035, it is a "Permanent License" and will stay unlocked forever.
Something tells me setting the BIOS clock will fix that if you have a license that will run out soon...  :-DD

There are several states that the license can be in within the code. Either one can get the DLL to report a false state or one could just work out the encoding of the hardware IDs to provide one's own serial to get around the hardware locks... Me thinks

9PM Update
Pretty sure I need to get the "moon_boxes.dll" function "moon_wind_checkget_software_state" to return a "1". That is all that is needed. But I don't know how to work with DLLs...

11PM Update

Managed to get the full readout of my hardware IDs. Started running it via the VS debugger so it does not have issues at the start with permissions.

Offline JacksterTopic starter

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Re: HWGC P&P machines - Documentation, Discussion and Info
« Reply #182 on: December 03, 2021, 11:24:37 pm »
Think I bypassed some of the restrictions. If you want to test here is the 64 bit EXE https://github.com/HWGC-P-P/8.8.0-reworked/releases/tag/Patch
You won't get very far without a machine as it wants to connect to the controllers before really starting up.

It will still say "trial" and should allow you to connect to the machine, but actually being able to do anything beyond that, not sure.
PS, I am only doing this as the support given by HWGC & YX to members on this forum has been pretty poor and I think those people deserve to use their machines.

Obviously, this is just for educational purposes only. And should not be used for actual production work. No warranty given and I take 0 responsibility for it damaging anything.
No flags https://www.virustotal.com/gui/file/a2eaa806246db3cada0f85bdfd1be4eb766775d16870452ee70675670792cd71/detection

Offline JacksterTopic starter

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Re: HWGC P&P machines - Documentation, Discussion and Info
« Reply #183 on: December 04, 2021, 11:58:34 pm »
Now, I am having issues with the main SMT placement program, it fails with a cant find moon_boxes.dll which is installed and located exactly where it should be.

Not sure if you fixed this but moon_boxes.dll was built with Visual Studio 2010 so you need both x86 and x64 Microsoft Visual C++ 2010 Redistributables
https://www.microsoft.com/en-gb/download/details.aspx?id=26999


[edit]

I have been digging a bit into the camera software via the code and DLLs provided.

High cam looks to be an industrial-style camera from CatchBest.
It is the U3C500M/C going off the code calling for its driver and the spec sheet matches the resolution request from the code also.
http://www.catchbest.com/product/25-cn.html


Fast cams and Mark cam, while I don't know the camera hardware, the capture devices look to be PCI-E CCTV DVR cards by Jinan Jovision?
Jinan Jovision's own website (https://www.jovisionsecurity.com/) looks to have moved on from these devices but a USA company by the same name lists a few cards.
The code calls for a "JVS960S" which is very close to a "JVS-C960E" 8 channel PCIe card on the USA website. http://www.jovision-usa.com/c98chcldvrvi.html
Other calls in the software are for "JW6008HT", "MV360" and "JVS900 OR JVS960S"

There is a download here http://nvsip.com/en/techsupport/software/detail/5.shtml which includes the SDK.
The SDK and the one included in the SMT software both reference a JVS-C896 but the "legacy" DLL calls for the JVS-C900..?



As for the controller boards, they are custom-made by HWGC as far as I know. I have seen a video of them making them I think?
The software is looking for a CP210x USB to Serial device with "HWGC-QiGn" in the port name.
The software supports the full range of P&P machines from the SMT460 up to the DSQ800_120F. But there are only 6 control boards from the looks of it.


1PM Update
Further investigation into the code, the Fast and Mark cameras use the Jovision 4 or 8 or 16 channel PCI-E cameras.
Each machine model lists what driver set to use along with what channel each camera is on.
Only the DSQ800_120F makes use of the 16 channels so I suspect that the other machines all have 4 or 8 channel capture cards.
The calls made to each card driver are all pretty generic so the two included DLL SDKs can easily swap out, I would hazard a guess that you could swap out said DLLs with the ones for the JVS-C960E and JVS-C890H capture cards for example.


As for the other calls to the MV360, AHD8 and JW6008HT look to be other brands of capture cards that from the looks of it, they could swap out with the Jovision cards. But it does look like the code is more set up for the Jovision cards.

The only info I can find for the MV360 capture card is via this website. Though I can not confirm it is the correct card/info.
http://www.mv360.net/index_en.php It lists it as a USB, PCI or PCI-E capture card. From the looks of it, it is an 8 channel device.

For the JW6008HT, there is a reference to an "HV7000 4/8CH 960H PCIE DVR Card" in the code. No more info than that.
The AHD8 references a "QiGn_V8 PCIE Card".


8th Dec Update

Just remembered that MasterTech posted a photo of the PC and the PCI-E cards look completely different from the cards I have found online. They look pretty modern actually.
I am wondering if the cards they are using are made by Jovision or have the same chips or something as to make use of these DLLs? Maybe they have been left in as legacy code remains? But then why does the code call for those drivers? So many questions!
Hopefully, MasterTech can let us know the model number?

Looks a lot like this actually... Even the cable.
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32874165320.html

I have compiled everything I know so far about the machines hardware and software on this Github page. https://github.com/HWGC-P-P/Wiki/blob/main/README.md

Offline hoooooonza

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Re: HWGC P&P machines - Documentation, Discussion and Info
« Reply #184 on: December 07, 2021, 11:10:56 pm »
Quick update: Still not running.

It took FOREVER to get Win7 64 to accept cd/dvd/usb drivers to actually install. Now, I am having issues with the main SMT placement program, it fails with a cant find moon_boxes.dll which is installed and located exactly where it should be. I also cant load pcie drivers because there is a signing error. I cant update the .net framework because it reports that the root certificate is bad yet I pulled this right off the MS website, and finally I cant get the fast cam driver from their link because apparently whatever they've created in the file is in violation of Google Drives terms of service and its inaccessible.

As for Jim, well, after saying they can no longer help and I should find someone in my own country, has stopped answering emails. I have begged for a clone image of a working drive and have offered to pay. Crickets.

Also to note, they seem to use an unregistered copy of windows and seem to have some work around that stops it asking for you to register it. Knowing this makes me a lot less resistant to someone copying and hacking their software.

At this point, I own a $13000, 5 month old, 450lb brick that is costing me money in lost production every single day. F 'em. Copy their damn software.

Did you solve this somehow?
 

Offline svenskelektronik

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Re: HWGC P&P machines - Documentation, Discussion and Info
« Reply #185 on: December 08, 2021, 09:22:57 am »
It's mind boggling that they don't provide support on this hard drive issue, especially since the machines are not old at all!

I was thinking about buying one of these machines to have on the side for some smaller runs, but now I'm leaning towards buying a Neoden K1830 instead.
 

Offline JacksterTopic starter

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Re: HWGC P&P machines - Documentation, Discussion and Info
« Reply #186 on: December 09, 2021, 11:51:30 pm »
It's mind boggling that they don't provide support on this hard drive issue, especially since the machines are not old at all!

I was thinking about buying one of these machines to have on the side for some smaller runs, but now I'm leaning towards buying a Neoden K1830 instead.

So am I. Their machines look to be a lot more technically advanced than HWGC machines and support is better.
I have been following Unexpected Maker for the past year and he looks to be having great success with his machine.


HWGC is 35% cheaper than NeoDen after shipping for the 64/66 feeder options with the included "free" feeders and shipping.
NeoDen K1830 64 feeder is £11,500 plus ~£1,500 door to door
HWGC 64 feeder is £9,000 shipped to your port, not including import costs. (includes about 20, 8mm feeders at $50 each).


So it really comes down to the machine performance, hardware, software, and after-sales support.

I have the HWGC software unlocked already. So now software support is not much of an issue outside of bug fixing and new features.
It really comes down to the hardware aspect which is why I have been trying for the past few months to document the insides of these machines so one can have a better idea of how to get them up and running again when the after-sales support lets you down. And they will...

Like can we get a replacement camera card when these machines go EOL, or a control board for the steppers/drivers?
What is off the shelf and what is custom made? Does someone have stock locally so we can get back up and running within a week and not a month?

Offline 48X24X48X

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Re: HWGC P&P machines - Documentation, Discussion and Info
« Reply #187 on: December 10, 2021, 12:43:19 am »
Nearly bought a Neoden 4 back in 2015 when I visited their factory but decided it was having such a fiddly feeder system and awful software interface. It was expensive too. Then when S1 came out, they wanted to sell me one even before it was released, it was out of my budget back then but glad that I didn't buy in as it turns out to be pulled out from the market shortly after launched due to numerous issues. I never look back at Neoden ever since. As someone that combed through nearly all the pick and place made in China through factory visits, I never see Neoden as a proper "industrial" player in China domestic market and they never were. In fact, the HWGC and it's similar peers like Kayo, Boreytech (both HWGC, & Kayo/Bovi originated from Boreytech's ex-employees) are the ones that a lot of China factories actually use. The whole HWGC "not so nice customer service experience" came from the fact that a bulk (when I say bulk, they sold a truckloads of them) of these machine were sold by the reseller YX and YX as a reseller is never going to be the best in providing after sales service. My opinion might be bias as I personally became friends with people that runs HWGC after my visit to their factories and they in return gave the best customer support any machine owner can dream of. In any instant I have an issue or question, I just need to message them over WeChat and I get my answer straight away. Even when I accidentally damaged my machine's 4-head, parts get shipped over by my reseller (Beijing Glichn, again they are long time partners of HWGC) with help from HWGC in just few days. I was guided through on the repairs and machine was up and running again less than a week. Neoden might have your shiny "English" marketing and English speaking sales person, but I feel that they were never really focus and consistent (you can just look at how different machine running different feeders, different software and even different OS) and the whole S1 model episode really turns me off. The software support of HWGC machine that goes all the way back to their old belt driven machine really shows you they cared about their old customers. In fact, their old customers made a bulk of their new machine purchases due to this. I personally felt that for the price you pay for a HWGC machine, you get a lot of solid hardware for a very small price. And if you have watch my videos on their software, it ain't too shabby too. This year marked their first hooray in selling to international market directly officially and I believe this will fix most of the support issue that were faced by customers bought from YX. On the spare parts, if you have visited their factory before, you will be shocked how much spare parts they kept in their inventory. So, I have no worries on that.

On a side note, @JMG's HDD issue, I managed to get HWGC's guy to help him out. His machine is running albeit still having some small minor issue. I will leave it to @JMG to comment on this once he is free to do so. All I know is he is busy churning out boards till the wee hours in the morning when I last spoken to him a few days ago.
 
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Offline svenskelektronik

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Re: HWGC P&P machines - Documentation, Discussion and Info
« Reply #188 on: December 10, 2021, 11:47:46 am »
Glad you didn't buy the Neoden 4. I've played with that machine for a while and it has a lot of issues, especially the feeders and software. However the K1830 looks a lot better but there is not that much information out there so hard to know for sure. What I can say about Neoden is that their support i excellent and spare parts will be provided in a speedy manner directly from them.

HWGC on the other hand seems to have excellent hardware that is proven (except hard disk drive ;) ). Software is not bad but not good, seems stable at least. What worries me is the reseller situation that brings low confidence with support and spares, and it seems to be the case with some resellers.

If I change my mind and still want to buy a HWGC machine, I would prefer to buy it straight from factory. However some people here on the forum says that the factory connection is just another reseller that have permission to use the HWGC name, whats your take on that?

Do HWGC have any homepage? Cant find it.
 

Offline 48X24X48X

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Re: HWGC P&P machines - Documentation, Discussion and Info
« Reply #189 on: December 10, 2021, 12:08:23 pm »
Glad you didn't buy the Neoden 4. I've played with that machine for a while and it has a lot of issues, especially the feeders and software. However the K1830 looks a lot better but there is not that much information out there so hard to know for sure. What I can say about Neoden is that their support i excellent and spare parts will be provided in a speedy manner directly from them.

HWGC on the other hand seems to have excellent hardware that is proven (except hard disk drive ;) ). Software is not bad but not good, seems stable at least. What worries me is the reseller situation that brings low confidence with support and spares, and it seems to be the case with some resellers.

If I change my mind and still want to buy a HWGC machine, I would prefer to buy it straight from factory. However some people here on the forum says that the factory connection is just another reseller that have permission to use the HWGC name, whats your take on that?

Do HWGC have any homepage? Cant find it.
Their official website.
Official Alibaba page.
You can buy direct from them if you want. They only started direct selling from this year onward although some that know them personally has been buying direct for quite some time. I know there's my fellow Malaysian who did just that.
 
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Offline svenskelektronik

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Re: HWGC P&P machines - Documentation, Discussion and Info
« Reply #190 on: December 11, 2021, 11:03:01 am »
I watched your on the machine. It's very helpful, thank you!

The software has some good features, it not to bad! And they seem to improve with every new version.
 

Offline 48X24X48X

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Re: HWGC P&P machines - Documentation, Discussion and Info
« Reply #191 on: December 11, 2021, 11:44:32 am »
Thank you!
I think the software is intuitive enough to use. Once you understand the flow of work, you moves pretty fast on setting up a project. At the time of writing this, works is already on the way on a totally new ground up software. Other than their software, I think ZhengBang's software is also very nice and intuitive to use. The rest in the market is so so only.

Offline NorthGuy

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Re: HWGC P&P machines - Documentation, Discussion and Info
« Reply #192 on: December 11, 2021, 03:11:09 pm »
- 3x 8 mm electrical feeder

If this is not a secret, where did you buy them and what was the price per unit?
 

Offline 48X24X48X

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Re: HWGC P&P machines - Documentation, Discussion and Info
« Reply #193 on: December 12, 2021, 12:28:24 am »
- 3x 8 mm electrical feeder

If this is not a secret, where did you buy them and what was the price per unit?
I bought from Beijing Glichn (they got it from HWGC I think) for $145 and Shenzhen Wenzhan Electronic on Alibaba for $165 (paid higher because I bought some larger pneumatic feeder for a lot less compared to other seller, so I didn't bother to do a separate purchase). I did managed to find the manufacturer of this electric feeder based on the company name on the feeder but they were selling at even higher price. I think it's a way to protect their reseller to international market. So, I'll just stick to that 2 reseller. No more buying 8 mm pneumatic. I think they are bang for bucks as they can do 0201, 0402 and others 4 mm pocket pitch components all on the same feeder. The tape advancing process is so smooth and gentle that I rarely have light components jumping out of the pocket anymore. And I love the fact that you lose 3 components only when swapping out the reel compared to 6 components on a pneumatic feeder.

Offline NorthGuy

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Re: HWGC P&P machines - Documentation, Discussion and Info
« Reply #194 on: December 12, 2021, 05:24:20 am »
I bought from Beijing Glichn (they got it from HWGC I think) for $145 and Shenzhen Wenzhan Electronic on Alibaba for $165

Thank you!
 

Offline hoooooonza

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Re: HWGC P&P machines - Documentation, Discussion and Info
« Reply #195 on: December 13, 2021, 10:49:59 am »
Thank you!
I think the software is intuitive enough to use. Once you understand the flow of work, you moves pretty fast on setting up a project. At the time of writing this, works is already on the way on a totally new ground up software. Other than their software, I think ZhengBang's software is also very nice and intuitive to use. The rest in the market is so so only.

So HWGC is working on completely new softare? :)
 

Offline 48X24X48X

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Re: HWGC P&P machines - Documentation, Discussion and Info
« Reply #196 on: December 13, 2021, 10:55:57 am »
That's what I was told.

Offline NorthGuy

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Re: HWGC P&P machines - Documentation, Discussion and Info
« Reply #197 on: December 13, 2021, 04:51:25 pm »
The tape advancing process is so smooth and gentle that I rarely have light components jumping out of the pocket anymore.

Don't they have a lid which keeps the pocket covered until the tape stops?
 

Offline 48X24X48X

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Re: HWGC P&P machines - Documentation, Discussion and Info
« Reply #198 on: December 13, 2021, 04:55:55 pm »
Unlike the pneumatic counterpart, it doesn't have a shutter that close and open. Instead the components are covered by a stagnant metal piece and only moves to the exposed area when advanced for picking. I can take a photo tomorrow if you need a clear image of that.

Offline NorthGuy

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Re: HWGC P&P machines - Documentation, Discussion and Info
« Reply #199 on: December 13, 2021, 06:12:31 pm »
Unlike the pneumatic counterpart, it doesn't have a shutter that close and open. Instead the components are covered by a stagnant metal piece and only moves to the exposed area when advanced for picking. I can take a photo tomorrow if you need a clear image of that.

The lid seems more reliable. Does the smoothness of the move make the lid obsolete?

Yes, please post pictures if possible.
 

Offline alexaraujo

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Re: HWGC P&P machines - Documentation, Discussion and Info
« Reply #200 on: December 13, 2021, 11:12:32 pm »
Last Saturday our machine arrived from the port of Santos, I was only able to put it in the correct room today.
I had to remove two doors and break the curb, but finally everything is in place. Tomorrow is to finish the electrical part and put the room doors back in again.
 

Offline JacksterTopic starter

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Re: HWGC P&P machines - Documentation, Discussion and Info
« Reply #201 on: December 13, 2021, 11:17:38 pm »
Last Saturday our machine arrived from the port of Santos, I was only able to put it in the correct room today.
I had to remove two doors and break the curb, but finally everything is in place. Tomorrow is to finish the electrical part and put the room doors back in again.
Is that their 2m with rail 8 stage oven?

Do share more photos!

Offline 48X24X48X

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Re: HWGC P&P machines - Documentation, Discussion and Info
« Reply #202 on: December 13, 2021, 11:24:54 pm »
Last Saturday our machine arrived from the port of Santos, I was only able to put it in the correct room today.
I had to remove two doors and break the curb, but finally everything is in place. Tomorrow is to finish the electrical part and put the room doors back in again.

Congratulations! 😍

I think you mounted the keyboard and mouse holder upside down. 🤭 Must be too excited.

Have fun and treat him well, he will make tonnes of boards for you.

Offline 48X24X48X

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Re: HWGC P&P machines - Documentation, Discussion and Info
« Reply #203 on: December 14, 2021, 07:44:11 am »
Unlike the pneumatic counterpart, it doesn't have a shutter that close and open. Instead the components are covered by a stagnant metal piece and only moves to the exposed area when advanced for picking. I can take a photo tomorrow if you need a clear image of that.

The lid seems more reliable. Does the smoothness of the move make the lid obsolete?

Yes, please post pictures if possible.

The lid is just a stagnant cover that presses the tape down. I think one of the reason for components in pneumatic version to jump is the shutter movement itself.
So, without this unnecessary movement, the electric version has no vibration when tape is advanced.

Offline SMTech

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Re: HWGC P&P machines - Documentation, Discussion and Info
« Reply #204 on: December 14, 2021, 08:16:42 am »
it would be slightly more fiddly but have you tried threading the cover tape through the same aperture the components are exposed in, that way you'd only uncover the one part you were about to pick instead of 3?
 

Offline 48X24X48X

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Re: HWGC P&P machines - Documentation, Discussion and Info
« Reply #205 on: December 14, 2021, 08:55:58 am »
it would be slightly more fiddly but have you tried threading the cover tape through the same aperture the components are exposed in, that way you'd only uncover the one part you were about to pick instead of 3?
Looks possible, I never thought of it. But, the metal edges looks sharp unlike the one intended which is rounded to avoid cutting the cover tape.

Offline JanL

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Re: HWGC P&P machines - Documentation, Discussion and Info
« Reply #206 on: December 14, 2021, 09:22:34 am »
About the bouncing components: have a look at this tutorial to calibrate the pneumatic feeder and reduce bouncing:
 

Offline alexaraujo

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Re: HWGC P&P machines - Documentation, Discussion and Info
« Reply #207 on: December 14, 2021, 02:04:07 pm »
I'm really excited. My anxiety part keeps telling me to turn on the machine right away, the other part of my methodical part is checking everything, and everything else.

Today I did a free translation of the machine maintenance chapter into Portuguese. But I found it very incomplete. So our friends from this more experienced forum can contribute with preventive maintenance tips for PnP machine I will be grateful.

Later today I will take more pictures of the equipment.

About the oven: I chose one of six zones with 2600mm.

Below are parts of the maintenance manual
 

Offline JacksterTopic starter

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Re: HWGC P&P machines - Documentation, Discussion and Info
« Reply #208 on: December 14, 2021, 02:33:20 pm »
I'm really excited. My anxiety part keeps telling me to turn on the machine right away, the other part of my methodical part is checking everything, and everything else.

Today I did a free translation of the machine maintenance chapter into Portuguese. But I found it very incomplete. So our friends from this more experienced forum can contribute with preventive maintenance tips for PnP machine I will be grateful.

Later today I will take more pictures of the equipment.

About the oven: I chose one of six zones with 2600mm.

Below are parts of the maintenance manual

I would be happy to create an online wiki so everyone can collaborate on this sort of thing if others are interested?
Need to set up a wiki for one of my products so will give me an excuse to work out the best way to do it.

Offline NorthGuy

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Re: HWGC P&P machines - Documentation, Discussion and Info
« Reply #209 on: December 14, 2021, 04:16:47 pm »
The lid is just a stagnant cover that presses the tape down.

Great pictures. Looks like much simpler design than the pneumatic one. Must be cheaper to manufacture too. I guess the prices are so high because these things are new. Eventually the prices should come down to the level of pneumatic feeders.
 

Offline alexaraujo

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Re: HWGC P&P machines - Documentation, Discussion and Info
« Reply #210 on: December 14, 2021, 11:26:06 pm »
I'm really excited. My anxiety part keeps telling me to turn on the machine right away, the other part of my methodical part is checking everything, and everything else.

Today I did a free translation of the machine maintenance chapter into Portuguese. But I found it very incomplete. So our friends from this more experienced forum can contribute with preventive maintenance tips for PnP machine I will be grateful.

Later today I will take more pictures of the equipment.

About the oven: I chose one of six zones with 2600mm.

Below are parts of the maintenance manual

I would be happy to create an online wiki so everyone can collaborate on this sort of thing if others are interested?
Need to set up a wiki for one of my products so will give me an excuse to work out the best way to do it.

For me is perfect.I help on the wiki
 


Offline alexaraujo

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Re: HWGC P&P machines - Documentation, Discussion and Info
« Reply #212 on: December 14, 2021, 11:41:30 pm »
Below is a photo of the oven more closely and the first manufacturing project.

Thank you very much for our friend's videos
48X24X48X, the videos posted are helping me a lot. Tomorrow I must run the first print run of plates.
 

Offline alexaraujo

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Re: HWGC P&P machines - Documentation, Discussion and Info
« Reply #213 on: December 14, 2021, 11:51:58 pm »
For me is perfect.I help on the wiki

Started working on it here, https://hwgc.jogara.co.uk/ (temp domain)
.

my topic suggestion for wiki

1) Prerequisites
2) Installation
3) First Steps
4) Configuration of PCB files
5) Setting up PCB panel.
6) Feeder configuration.
7) Production setup.
8) Setting up footprint
9) Calibration
10) Fault handling.
11) Cautions when updating
12) Corrective and preventive maintenance.
 

Offline JacksterTopic starter

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Re: HWGC P&P machines - Documentation, Discussion and Info
« Reply #214 on: December 15, 2021, 01:50:58 am »
For me is perfect.I help on the wiki

Started working on it here, https://hwgc.jogara.co.uk/ (temp domain)
.

my topic suggestion for wiki

1) Prerequisites
2) Installation
3) First Steps
4) Configuration of PCB files
5) Setting up PCB panel.
6) Feeder configuration.
7) Production setup.
8) Setting up footprint
9) Calibration
10) Fault handling.
11) Cautions when updating
12) Corrective and preventive maintenance.

I have started to fill out what I can though I don't have access to the machine so what I can do is limited.
https://hwgc.jogara.co.uk/en/software

Feel free to register and ping me a DM with your username. I will enable your account to add content.
Let me know what language to enable. Currently, there is English and Portuguese (Brazil).

To not fill this thread with loads of wiki talk, I have set up a Discord, https://discord.gg/xN8HmN9Tea


Offline alexaraujo

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Re: HWGC P&P machines - Documentation, Discussion and Info
« Reply #215 on: December 15, 2021, 04:14:58 pm »
For me is perfect.I help on the wiki

Started working on it here, https://hwgc.jogara.co.uk/ (temp domain)
.

my topic suggestion for wiki

1) Prerequisites
2) Installation
3) First Steps
4) Configuration of PCB files
5) Setting up PCB panel.
6) Feeder configuration.
7) Production setup.
8) Setting up footprint
9) Calibration
10) Fault handling.
11) Cautions when updating
12) Corrective and preventive maintenance.

I have started to fill out what I can though I don't have access to the machine so what I can do is limited.
https://hwgc.jogara.co.uk/en/software

Feel free to register and ping me a DM with your username. I will enable your account to add content.
Let me know what language to enable. Currently, there is English and Portuguese (Brazil).

To not fill this thread with loads of wiki talk, I have set up a Discord, https://discord.gg/xN8HmN9Tea
.

Tonight I register and start feeding with what little knowledge I have
 

Offline alexaraujo

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Re: HWGC P&P machines - Documentation, Discussion and Info
« Reply #216 on: December 15, 2021, 04:29:36 pm »
Today I ran 20 board panels easily and error-free. I lost some placements due to my failure in placing the feeder's transparent tape. I loved the machine in this first production, I started to setup the second model.

I am trying to set the correct temperature curve for SAC305 paste, I am using my small oven TS-962 because the 380 volt network is not ready.

Vídeo 1
https://drive.google.com/file/d/121FsnProHhU_Rb4J6g-GDumsk4H_toca/view?usp=sharing
Video 2
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1zIgGfsYevSDQnktFrQlomPsdhd9hR4k3/view?usp=sharing
 

Offline svenskelektronik

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Re: HWGC P&P machines - Documentation, Discussion and Info
« Reply #217 on: December 21, 2021, 11:07:01 am »
Just decided to go with the HW-T8-80F machine, will probably take some time before I get it though. I'll let you guys know what I think when I've had a proper test run!
 

Offline vstrulev

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Re: HWGC P&P machines - Documentation, Discussion and Info
« Reply #218 on: January 26, 2022, 03:15:12 am »
Good day. For those living in US and who is interested. Pick and place machine and feeders are tax free here in US, but you pay 25% tariff fee. Port fees were ~$550. Delivery from Seattle to Vancouver WA, which is ~170 miles, is $1025 because I need a service with a forklift and this is all my broker could find, or at least he said that. All of this for DU400; 60 feeders; and stencil printer. I've bought the machine from these guys: Beijing Huawei Guochuang Electronic Technology Co. Ltd. and according to their website on alibaba it looks like they are actual factory and they have pictures of the building and everything, but they are not. The name of actual company, which produces these machines, is Beijing Huawei Silkroad Electronic Technology Co. Ltd. Almost identical, but one word is different. There are two guys, who manage sells and who are located in the factory, one of them is Liu Jiangtao. Liu is the guy you want to deal with: I communicated to him via whatsup video in real time and he showed me around the company even if he did not benefit from it as he just wanted to proof he is the one, who works at the original factory. So he is the real one. I happened to buy their machine from the guy, who used to work in the company, but claims to belong to the company, see my explanation above. Deal went well and smooth, but now once deal was done, his communication changed for worse. The guy states it doesn't matter if you buy from him or them as it would be the same machine, and I believe it is, but dealing with the actual factory and people, who work there, is much better in my opinion. I glad to know Liu and he promised to provide full support for their machine. Bought their HW-R306 oven and 20 electric feeders as well, will be here in two months or so and this time arranged it door-to-door. Shipping is high.
« Last Edit: January 26, 2022, 03:18:03 am by vstrulev »
 

Offline vstrulev

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Re: HWGC P&P machines - Documentation, Discussion and Info
« Reply #219 on: January 26, 2022, 03:20:29 am »
To the original writer regarding machine specifications: DU400 supports 20mm height components and this is why I've bought it. Here is a video:
 

Offline 48X24X48X

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Re: HWGC P&P machines - Documentation, Discussion and Info
« Reply #220 on: January 26, 2022, 03:26:10 am »
Yeah, just get it from Liu. He's the real deal. We became friends after a rough start with him copying my videos and reuploading them. In just a short span, he helped me a lot. Constant update on software was given to me despite me actually bought the machine from a reseller but back then HWGC doesn't have any international official channel yet.

Both company albeit the name have the difference of "Silkroad", they are the same company. They are originally from Beijing which I did a visit in 2020. Then the Beijing environmental restrictions was getting tighter and more expensive to run. So, they went to the province next to Beijing in Hebei. But as China has that "one road, silk road" kinda mega initiative (or whatever they might have called it), if you add that "Silkroad" into your company name, you get some financial initiative from the government, something like that. Hence, that odd name.

The 20mm height on the newer DU series is due to the fact each nozzle is driven by an individual vertical motor. So you get a total of 360 degree to serve a total of 40 mm of vertical movement. So, by theory you get 20mm height of components at maximum.
« Last Edit: January 26, 2022, 03:33:31 am by 48X24X48X »
 

Offline PartialDischarge

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Re: HWGC P&P machines - Documentation, Discussion and Info
« Reply #221 on: January 26, 2022, 04:20:31 am »
For those of you living in cold countries, be aware that if you leave the machine in a cold warehouse it will not run properly afterwards. I’m talking probably 10C or less. Had to open the side panel and use a heater.
 

Offline 48X24X48X

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Re: HWGC P&P machines - Documentation, Discussion and Info
« Reply #222 on: January 26, 2022, 05:17:44 am »
For those of you living in cold countries, be aware that if you leave the machine in a cold warehouse it will not run properly afterwards. I’m talking probably 10C or less. Had to open the side panel and use a heater.
I think the parts used on the entire machine is not 100% industrial rated (-40 to +85 Degree Celsius). It probably applies to most machine bought in China.

Offline vstrulev

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Re: HWGC P&P machines - Documentation, Discussion and Info
« Reply #223 on: January 26, 2022, 06:58:15 am »
Thank to all for the advices. Learning a lot. I plan to use the DU400 in my garage, at least for now. In preparation for the machine, I've installed 24K BTU minisplit heat pump in my garage (heating and cooling modes). I also build a good air treatment system as well, see attached pdf for those, who is interested. 
 

Offline JacksterTopic starter

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Re: HWGC P&P machines - Documentation, Discussion and Info
« Reply #224 on: January 26, 2022, 09:59:23 am »
If you have not already, check out our Discord server.
Slowly building up quite a few people who own/want these machines https://discord.gg/y5qxSSxq

Offline 48X24X48X

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Re: HWGC P&P machines - Documentation, Discussion and Info
« Reply #225 on: January 26, 2022, 12:24:06 pm »
Thank to all for the advices. Learning a lot. I plan to use the DU400 in my garage, at least for now. In preparation for the machine, I've installed 24K BTU minisplit heat pump in my garage (heating and cooling modes). I also build a good air treatment system as well, see attached pdf for those, who is interested.
The DU400 is my favourite machine in their lineup. That extra 14 feeder against the 50F is really a good addition and of course that 20 mm maximum component height is very handy if you use a lot of electrolytic or tall connectors. Too bad I don't have the space for it. It would be perfect if it has 6 nozzle though. Although 4 nozzle is enough in most of my use cases but at times when you have 6, you get that extra speed (when it pick 6 components in 1 go) and also that room to allow nozzle size to match exactly the component sizes. For example, 0603 would work with both 503 and 504 but it's more accurate and consistent when used with 503, that's what I noticed. Or you have a larger components but you can only use 505 and so forth. I also notice from your earlier post you mentioned you bought 60 feeder and another 20 electric feeder? The DU400 runs completely on the Fuji NX electrical feeder? I'm sure pneumatic doesn't work on it.

Offline vstrulev

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Re: HWGC P&P machines - Documentation, Discussion and Info
« Reply #226 on: January 26, 2022, 06:44:01 pm »
They shipped Yamaha feeders: both pneumatic and electric. So I guess the same Yamaha as others. Still waiting for the machine. Will be delivered sometime this week. I ordered extra parts as well: steppers for nosles; vacuum generators; belts; and nozzles 5 pieces of each size. Just in case ;-)
« Last Edit: January 26, 2022, 06:59:39 pm by vstrulev »
 

Offline 48X24X48X

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Re: HWGC P&P machines - Documentation, Discussion and Info
« Reply #227 on: January 27, 2022, 12:48:02 am »
The DU400 is my favourite machine in their lineup. That extra 14 feeder against the 50F is really a good addition and of course that 20 mm maximum component height is very handy if you use a lot of electrolytic or tall connectors. Too bad I don't have the space for it. It would be perfect if it has 6 nozzle though. Although 4 nozzle is enough in most of my use cases but at times when you have 6, you get that extra speed (when it pick 6 components in 1 go) and also that room to allow nozzle size to match exactly the component sizes. For example, 0603 would work with both 503 and 504 but it's more accurate and consistent when used with 503, that's what I noticed. Or you have a larger components but you can only use 505 and so forth. I also notice from your earlier post you mentioned you bought 60 feeder and another 20 electric feeder? The DU400 runs completely on the Fuji NX electrical feeder? I'm sure pneumatic doesn't work on it.
Okay, I figured it out. The DU400 and DU800 runs on Yamaha pneumatic and electrical feeders just like the other models. Only the top range DSQ800 runs on Fuji NX electrical feeders. My bad.  ;D But, this seems to be a good thing for anyone owning any of the smaller machine but wanted to upgrade or add another machine in the line to handle taller components or simply wanting to add more feeders. So, we can reuse the feeders!

Offline vstrulev

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Re: HWGC P&P machines - Documentation, Discussion and Info
« Reply #228 on: January 27, 2022, 01:03:46 am »
just clarified with Huawei. DU400 uses Yamaha feeders and DU800 uses NXT feeders. We may update datasheets in the beginning of the thread.
 

Offline vstrulev

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Re: HWGC P&P machines - Documentation, Discussion and Info
« Reply #229 on: January 27, 2022, 01:32:19 am »
The DU400 is my favourite machine in their lineup. That extra 14 feeder against the 50F is really a good addition and of course that 20 mm maximum component height is very handy if you use a lot of electrolytic or tall connectors. Too bad I don't have the space for it. It would be perfect if it has 6 nozzle though. Although 4 nozzle is enough in most of my use cases but at times when you have 6, you get that extra speed (when it pick 6 components in 1 go) and also that room to allow nozzle size to match exactly the component sizes. For example, 0603 would work with both 503 and 504 but it's more accurate and consistent when used with 503, that's what I noticed. Or you have a larger components but you can only use 505 and so forth. I also notice from your earlier post you mentioned you bought 60 feeder and another 20 electric feeder? The DU400 runs completely on the Fuji NX electrical feeder? I'm sure pneumatic doesn't work on it.
Okay, I figured it out. The DU400 and DU800 runs on Yamaha pneumatic and electrical feeders just like the other models. Only the top range DSQ800 runs on Fuji NX electrical feeders. My bad.  ;D But, this seems to be a good thing for anyone owning any of the smaller machine but wanted to upgrade or add another machine in the line to handle taller components or simply wanting to add more feeders. So, we can reuse the feeders!

Per Liu from Huawei, DU400 uses Yamaha feeders and DU800 uses NXT feeders
 

Offline 48X24X48X

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Re: HWGC P&P machines - Documentation, Discussion and Info
« Reply #230 on: January 27, 2022, 02:46:04 am »
Per Liu from Huawei, DU400 uses Yamaha feeders and DU800 uses NXT feeders
No, DU400 & DU800 uses Yamaha. Only the newest double 4-head DSQ800 uses Fuji NXT feeders.

Offline vstrulev

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Re: HWGC P&P machines - Documentation, Discussion and Info
« Reply #231 on: January 27, 2022, 03:16:19 am »
Per Liu from Huawei, DU400 uses Yamaha feeders and DU800 uses NXT feeders
No, DU400 & DU800 uses Yamaha. Only the newest double 4-head DSQ800 uses Fuji NXT feeders.
Good to know, but here is direct quote from Liu: "[1/26, 17:00] Liu Jiangtao: No, DU400 used Yamaha feeders
[1/26, 17:00] Liu Jiangtao: HW-DU800-96F used NXT "
 

Offline 48X24X48X

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Re: HWGC P&P machines - Documentation, Discussion and Info
« Reply #232 on: January 27, 2022, 03:21:01 am »
My bad. I think you are right. So 2 of their model uses the NXT feeders. Thank you.

Offline vstrulev

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Re: HWGC P&P machines - Documentation, Discussion and Info
« Reply #233 on: January 27, 2022, 03:32:07 am »
No one is bad. We are learning. Especially me since I don't even have the machine yet ;-)
 

Offline vstrulev

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Re: HWGC P&P machines - Documentation, Discussion and Info
« Reply #234 on: January 28, 2022, 06:39:16 am »
Just a little update to those, who are interested. Received DU400 machine today and sixty feeders. The machine came without electrical feeder support. Make yourself a favor. Buy directly from these guys:

Beijing Huawei Silkroad Electronic Technology Co. Ltd.

not from these people:

Beijing Huawei Guochuang Electronic Technology Co. Ltd.

Company names sound about the same, but these are two different companies. All DU400 machines are equipped with the electric feeder option from the second company and communication is straight forward. Avoid frustration and headache.
 

Offline 48X24X48X

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Re: HWGC P&P machines - Documentation, Discussion and Info
« Reply #235 on: January 28, 2022, 08:10:09 am »
Just a little update to those, who are interested. Received DU400 machine today and sixty feeders. The machine came without electrical feeder support. Make yourself a favor. Buy directly from these guys:

Beijing Huawei Silkroad Electronic Technology Co. Ltd.

not from these people:

Beijing Huawei Guochuang Electronic Technology Co. Ltd.

Company names sound about the same, but these are two different companies. All DU400 machines are equipped with the electric feeder option from the second company and communication is straight forward. Avoid frustration and headache.
You should have read my post on my machine purchase. I gave warning about the electrical feeder somewhere on this thread and on my blog post. I had to give a picture with red color highlight of the electrical port when I bought it from Beijing Glichn. But, at least they are upfront on the base price comes without the electrical port. A few of the reseller ain't that honest and the way it was advertised it makes you think it's included. The company you bought from is actually a just reseller. The amount of wiring will make you think twice to add the wiring yourself but can be done.

Add: you can ask Liu on adding the electrical port. From what I can see from the board to the electrical ports, it is just wires that looks like a big bush going into a bunch of terminal blocks. But, Liu has went back hometown since yesterday, there will be delay for his reply. I'm giving him some time off now.  :-DD
« Last Edit: January 28, 2022, 08:17:13 am by 48X24X48X »
 

Offline vstrulev

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Re: HWGC P&P machines - Documentation, Discussion and Info
« Reply #236 on: January 28, 2022, 07:43:32 pm »
I've read all the posts and I've read about the issue as well, but after ordgering the machine ;-) From what I got from the seller, the machine is the most adavanced and is latest and greatest. So I assumed it has all the features. Not a big deal. The seller promissed to ship that electrical panels to me for free and asked to pay for shipping. Will see..... Thank you 48X24X48X for all great advices and information and for all the time, you spent writing all this up. Greatly appreciated.
 

Offline vstrulev

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Re: HWGC P&P machines - Documentation, Discussion and Info
« Reply #237 on: January 29, 2022, 02:31:21 am »
Good time of a day everyone. If someone remembers, please let me know what SSD capacity/size do these machines have (whant to buy the same or close SSD for cloning). I've read regarding dead SSD and want to create a clone of my SSD right at beginning to avoid issues in the future. Thank you in advance.
 

Offline PartialDischarge

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Re: HWGC P&P machines - Documentation, Discussion and Info
« Reply #238 on: January 29, 2022, 04:20:38 am »
Good time of a day everyone. If someone remembers, please let me know what SSD capacity/size do these machines have (whant to buy the same or close SSD for cloning). I've read regarding dead SSD and want to create a clone of my SSD right at beginning to avoid issues in the future. Thank you in advance.
Mine is 120gb but yours may be different, found it as used spare part on a second hand marketplace. Used Macrium to make a clone within the machine itself.
 
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Offline 48X24X48X

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Re: HWGC P&P machines - Documentation, Discussion and Info
« Reply #239 on: January 29, 2022, 04:23:43 am »
Just to add, yes backing it up is good. But if everything else fails, Liu will send you a replacement. I saw how they prepare the disk. There's a big stash of them.
 
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Offline vstrulev

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Re: HWGC P&P machines - Documentation, Discussion and Info
« Reply #240 on: January 29, 2022, 03:43:52 pm »
Thank you. I have confidence in Liu. Just want to have an imediate replacement just in case
 

Offline vstrulev

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Re: HWGC P&P machines - Documentation, Discussion and Info
« Reply #241 on: January 31, 2022, 02:16:38 am »
Just some updates for those who are interested. Got DU400 a couple of days ago. Installed some electrical outlets for SMT and other equipment. Made a good electrical cable with matching plug. Got a good silent air compressor and installed automatic water drain for it. Assembled SMC air treatment system with refrigerated air dryer (see attached schematic if interested). Decided to take some pictures and share in this forum so people, who think about the machine, will have some ideas on how/where/what. Still learning a lot from all you guys. Thank you everyone  :-+
« Last Edit: January 31, 2022, 02:19:13 am by vstrulev »
 

Offline vstrulev

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Re: HWGC P&P machines - Documentation, Discussion and Info
« Reply #242 on: January 31, 2022, 02:21:15 am »
Good time of a day everyone. If someone remembers, please let me know what SSD capacity/size do these machines have (whant to buy the same or close SSD for cloning). I've read regarding dead SSD and want to create a clone of my SSD right at beginning to avoid issues in the future. Thank you in advance.
Mine is 120gb but yours may be different, found it as used spare part on a second hand marketplace. Used Macrium to make a clone within the machine itself.
My DU400 has 120GB as well. Checked today.
 

Offline AlexBPT

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Re: HWGC P&P machines - Documentation, Discussion and Info
« Reply #243 on: January 31, 2022, 11:22:53 am »
Hello to everyone! I have HGWC GP400 (aka T4SG_50F). On past week I`ve got message:
"System have been blocked since illegal operation to modify system time!"
But I didnt touch any system settings...
And now I cant do anything with machine.
Cause it`s hollidays now in China I cant contact my sales manager. Perhaps someone has experienced something similar and knows how to bypass this block?
Thanks in advance!
 

Offline SMTech

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Re: HWGC P&P machines - Documentation, Discussion and Info
« Reply #244 on: January 31, 2022, 12:40:23 pm »
The error message suggests they have put some code in that detects a system date&time change that someone might use to try and extend a trial/license period.
This could be a bug, programmers messing up code involving dates is not exactly uncommon.
The other possibility is the system RTC has reset because of something as simple as a flat battery CMOS/clock battery, I don't have one of these systems but looking for a system settings/clock error at startup might be an indication as could a very incorrect system date time if one is shown elsewhere when it is running. Fixing the date/time could make the error go away and is something you could try/check before anything else. If that works or not depends on what the software did when it detected whatever it thinks it detected.
 

Offline 48X24X48X

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Re: HWGC P&P machines - Documentation, Discussion and Info
« Reply #245 on: January 31, 2022, 02:00:26 pm »
Hello to everyone! I have HGWC GP400 (aka T4SG_50F). On past week I`ve got message:
"System have been blocked since illegal operation to modify system time!"
But I didnt touch any system settings...
And now I cant do anything with machine.
Cause it`s hollidays now in China I cant contact my sales manager. Perhaps someone has experienced something similar and knows how to bypass this block?
Thanks in advance!
Haven't encounter this issue yet. What is the software revision? Looks something like early v8.x.x. Probably there's some bugs.
As much as I wanted to help you now, I'm giving the HWGC guys a break for now.
And it's CNY eve today filled with reunion dinner.
I'll drop them a message but probably at least few days for now, before they start work officially.

Offline mojejapko

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Re: HWGC P&P machines - Documentation, Discussion and Info
« Reply #246 on: February 01, 2022, 07:12:34 pm »
Go to %appdata% and rename SystemPluginWin64 folder. This will reset license data and you will back to demo mode. It is worth to backup this folder when you will receive new serial number.
 

Offline 48X24X48X

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Re: HWGC P&P machines - Documentation, Discussion and Info
« Reply #247 on: February 02, 2022, 05:21:24 am »
The error message suggests they have put some code in that detects a system date&time change that someone might use to try and extend a trial/license period.
This could be a bug, programmers messing up code involving dates is not exactly uncommon.
The other possibility is the system RTC has reset because of something as simple as a flat battery CMOS/clock battery, I don't have one of these systems but looking for a system settings/clock error at startup might be an indication as could a very incorrect system date time if one is shown elsewhere when it is running. Fixing the date/time could make the error go away and is something you could try/check before anything else. If that works or not depends on what the software did when it detected whatever it thinks it detected.
Just got a reply from Liu. It looks like the license you have is a trial 3 month license. Please ask Beijing Glichn as you mentioned GP400 to provide you with a valid key for your machine.

Offline JacksterTopic starter

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Re: HWGC P&P machines - Documentation, Discussion and Info
« Reply #248 on: February 02, 2022, 11:35:55 pm »
The error message suggests they have put some code in that detects a system date&time change that someone might use to try and extend a trial/license period.
This could be a bug, programmers messing up code involving dates is not exactly uncommon.
The other possibility is the system RTC has reset because of something as simple as a flat battery CMOS/clock battery, I don't have one of these systems but looking for a system settings/clock error at startup might be an indication as could a very incorrect system date time if one is shown elsewhere when it is running. Fixing the date/time could make the error go away and is something you could try/check before anything else. If that works or not depends on what the software did when it detected whatever it thinks it detected.

Correct. It is one of around 7 software licence states that dictate if the licence is valid.

One of the licence types is based on time and date. Any licence that runs over 2035 is perpetual. But the software still checks for time and date.

Offline JanL

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Re: HWGC P&P machines - Documentation, Discussion and Info
« Reply #249 on: February 10, 2022, 08:13:56 am »
Anyone experience with placing MELF components? There are special nozzles like 511 but they need to have the right angle for picking up components? How do I set this?
 

Offline PartialDischarge

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Re: HWGC P&P machines - Documentation, Discussion and Info
« Reply #250 on: February 10, 2022, 08:40:58 am »
One question to those operating the machine: do you use a water separation device or an air drying device between compressor and machine?
The feeder page has an "init angle", also probably the component library has this value
 

Offline JanL

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Re: HWGC P&P machines - Documentation, Discussion and Info
« Reply #251 on: February 10, 2022, 09:13:08 am »
The feeder page has an "init angle", also probably the component library has this value
This angle is only for the component orientation. And it doesn't work right.
Have you seen the nozzle? They do not have a circular outlet. They more have like a rectangular outlet and that needs to be placed in the right angle. The problem is that the nozzles do not have a fixed angle. You can put them in the machine in any angle you like. So the machine does not no anything about the orientation of the nozzle. But it needs to do. And I was curious on how to set this up.
 

Offline 48X24X48X

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Re: HWGC P&P machines - Documentation, Discussion and Info
« Reply #252 on: February 10, 2022, 11:39:02 am »
The feeder page has an "init angle", also probably the component library has this value
This angle is only for the component orientation. And it doesn't work right.
Have you seen the nozzle? They do not have a circular outlet. They more have like a rectangular outlet and that needs to be placed in the right angle. The problem is that the nozzles do not have a fixed angle. You can put them in the machine in any angle you like. So the machine does not no anything about the orientation of the nozzle. But it needs to do. And I was curious on how to set this up.
When you insert the nozzle, make sure it is aligned to the direction you want (aka align to the MELF orientation). Tough but doable I believe. Got this advise from HWGC Shenzhen branch manager that actually runs a production line.

Offline JanL

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Re: HWGC P&P machines - Documentation, Discussion and Info
« Reply #253 on: February 10, 2022, 11:50:45 am »
When you insert the nozzle, make sure it is aligned to the direction you want (aka align to the MELF orientation). Tough but doable I believe. Got this advise from HWGC Shenzhen branch manager that actually runs a production line.
Thank you. Unfortunately I was expecting this. We should ask them to put this function into software.
 

Offline 48X24X48X

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Re: HWGC P&P machines - Documentation, Discussion and Info
« Reply #254 on: February 10, 2022, 03:16:29 pm »
When you insert the nozzle, make sure it is aligned to the direction you want (aka align to the MELF orientation). Tough but doable I believe. Got this advise from HWGC Shenzhen branch manager that actually runs a production line.
Thank you. Unfortunately I was expecting this. We should ask them to put this function into software.
I was thinking maybe bringing the nozzle over the camera and we set the zero degree angle after adjusting using the angle jog.

Offline JanL

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Re: HWGC P&P machines - Documentation, Discussion and Info
« Reply #255 on: February 10, 2022, 03:31:15 pm »
I was thinking maybe bringing the nozzle over the camera and we set the zero degree angle after adjusting using the angle jog.
Something like that. The problem that may occur is that there is no endless rotation of the nozzle because of the vacuum connection. I will ask them to implement a function like that. And do some translation work because there are still so many menus or parts of it in Chinese.
 

Offline scheiglj

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Re: HWGC P&P machines - Documentation, Discussion and Info
« Reply #256 on: February 18, 2022, 11:14:20 am »
Hello Everyone!
One question related to the calibration. Has anyone done the Mark camera calibration before? How should I do this? I have a hwgc hw t4 machine.
Thanks in advance! :)
« Last Edit: February 18, 2022, 11:28:24 am by scheiglj »
 

Offline 48X24X48X

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Re: HWGC P&P machines - Documentation, Discussion and Info
« Reply #257 on: February 19, 2022, 03:30:32 am »
Hello Everyone!
One question related to the calibration. Has anyone done the Mark camera calibration before? How should I do this? I have a hwgc hw t4 machine.
Thanks in advance! :)
I will do a video on this. But, in general, those value you found there is what they already calibrated and accounted for during their factory testing.
You basically need to move the mark camera cursor to the most left upper clamping metal top right corner. Then click on preview offset. The preview offset will show you another window of the image with yellow color cursor. You can compare and see that this preview will give you an exact alignment with yours on the left if they are spot on. If you need to change this value, you need to restart the software for the value to take effect. Values for the offset are usually 3-4. You can try putting in a ridiculous like say 15 and preview the offset, you can see the cursor will be way off.
The effects of this mark camera calibration accuracy can been seen when you do the nozzle delta calibration. 

Edit: I added an image here so it gives you a better overall picture. As you can see, both image are quite close in terms of the cross hair position. My setting was 4 on x-offset and 0 on y-offset.
« Last Edit: February 19, 2022, 05:34:48 am by 48X24X48X »
 
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Offline alexaraujo

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Re: HWGC P&P machines - Documentation, Discussion and Info
« Reply #258 on: February 20, 2022, 11:29:31 am »
After a whirlwind of things that happened in these two months, I finally managed to get back to my routines.

In those two months, I went on vacation, I lost very dear people, my children got sick and despite everything our small assembly line ran surprisingly.

We have already recovered 22% of the invested capital and are adding an additional amount of capital to purchase complements to our smd line.

Responding to friends who helped me in this way.
@Jackster - I'll go from the sequel on your wiki.
@48X24X48X - Do you have plans to come to Brazil? I have to pay you the tickets, you helped me a lot.
 
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Offline 48X24X48X

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Re: HWGC P&P machines - Documentation, Discussion and Info
« Reply #259 on: February 20, 2022, 12:52:31 pm »
After a whirlwind of things that happened in these two months, I finally managed to get back to my routines.

In those two months, I went on vacation, I lost very dear people, my children got sick and despite everything our small assembly line ran surprisingly.

We have already recovered 22% of the invested capital and are adding an additional amount of capital to purchase complements to our smd line.

Responding to friends who helped me in this way.
@Jackster - I'll go from the sequel on your wiki.
@48X24X48X - Do you have plans to come to Brazil? I have to pay you the tickets, you helped me a lot.
Hope your kid is well now. It's tough time during this Covid era especially for kids. Mine got sick too during the CNY holiday.
And for sure, these machine will help your business in a blink of an eye. Recovered my money spent albeit my setup is a lot smaller than yours, in 2 just months.
But, unfortunately, I'm not moving anywhere at the time being.
Take care.

Offline JanL

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Re: HWGC P&P machines - Documentation, Discussion and Info
« Reply #260 on: February 28, 2022, 01:06:29 pm »
Has anyone an english version of the part library? Mine is partly chinese and a lot of components/packages are missing.
 

Offline 48X24X48X

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