Author Topic: HWGC P&P machines - Documentation, Discussion and Info  (Read 8397 times)

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Offline Jackster

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HWGC P&P machines - Documentation, Discussion and Info
« on: April 26, 2021, 09:59:28 pm »
This is a topic for the documentation and discussion on HWGC P&P machines.
These machines are made by a single company but are rebadged and sold by resellers to the outside of China market.
I have documented the spec of the machines along with pricing info below.
Links are more up-to-date than screenshots.

Spec and machine price

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1o59ew0r3EL1JKFsNjkMwd5DyvhckeIeWCILkPt-afos/edit?usp=drivesdk

Documentation and other files
https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1V7BzhfgAOhGsFFIn-jTZzGSy_frviEoD?usp=sharing

YX AliExpress listing with free to port shipping
80 feeder https://s.click.aliexpress.com/e/_ACmVf2 (30x 8mm feeders free)
60 feeder https://s.click.aliexpress.com/e/_A9WhY4
50 feeder https://s.click.aliexpress.com/e/_AtQIac
40 feeder https://s.click.aliexpress.com/e/_AMOHrS
30 feeder https://s.click.aliexpress.com/e/_99jDnC

Stencil Printer https://s.click.aliexpress.com/e/_AsXYNK
Semi-automatic Stencil Printer https://s.click.aliexpress.com/e/_AWjTWg
Reflow Oven https://s.click.aliexpress.com/e/_A3AASU

Alibaba
Beijing Huawei Silkroad Electronic Technology Co. https://zghwgc.en.alibaba.com/
Wenzhou Yingxing Technology Co. https://wzyxing.en.alibaba.com/

Accessories
Yamaha Feeder Trolly https://s.click.aliexpress.com/e/_AlPG00
JUKI nozzles https://s.click.aliexpress.com/e/_AtpCLW
Solder Paste Mixer https://s.click.aliexpress.com/e/_AboEMC


Feeders
The pre-2021 models use the classic Yamaha CL system. They are plentiful and easy to get a hold of.
I was able to pick up around 140 feeders, granted mostly 8mm, for around $3,900. eBay is great for this sort of thing.

The 8mm feeder comes in 3 types;
-2mm pitch 0201 High precision
-2mm pitch 0402 Normal precision
-4mm pitch Standard precision 0603 and up


The newer machines use NXT electric feeders. Apparently can be had for around the same price as Yamaha CL electrics?

Both Beijing Huawei and YX both offer around 40 pneumatic and 15 electric feeders free with their pre-2021 machines on Alibaba and sell feeders at the following prices;
8mm   $65
12mm $80
16mm $80
24mm $250
32mm $450
44mm $580

Neoden feeders start at $50.



[Original post]
Seen a couple people on this forum who own YX P&P machines and was wondering if anyone else had it or has the smaller models and can provide feedback?
Just received a quote for an SMT880 and it is a good price with all the free feeders they are including right now.

Not looking to get it tomorrow but hopefully in a couple months time.

My main issue with these sorts of machines is the user interface. Most of the time the actual build of the machine is fine and does what it needs to do but the software lets it down.

How has the SMT880 and SMT660 software been?
What is YX's support like?
If you have had a hardware issue, what was it and how did they deal with it in terms of warranty?


I have attached some documents about the SMT880. Hopefully, we can share some more info about this machine?
https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1V7BzhfgAOhGsFFIn-jTZzGSy_frviEoD?usp=sharing
« Last Edit: July 12, 2021, 09:43:30 am by Jackster »
 

Offline JMG

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Re: YX SMT660 SMT880 P&P machines
« Reply #1 on: April 27, 2021, 12:26:51 am »
I am in the process of buying an SMT550 right now. It has not been going well. The ad said 50 feeders,but they are only sending 15 and I had to buy 15 more at near $1000. I was charged $60 for it to be 110V too.

I'll let you know how it goes from here.
 

Offline Reckless

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Re: YX SMT660 SMT880 P&P machines
« Reply #2 on: May 07, 2021, 09:08:00 am »
I almost pulled the trigger on one a few years ago.  It was running same price as a used name brand machine so I opted for established brand.  I like to believe china will sort out software issues someday but I keep reminding myself thats wishful thinking.  Name brand units are hard to learn on but once you learn the ideosynchracies they are super reliable.  Somehow I had zero trust that the SMT660 would work 1-2 years later.   
 

Offline JMG

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Re: YX SMT660 SMT880 P&P machines
« Reply #3 on: May 07, 2021, 07:51:16 pm »
You cant touch a decent condition name brand machine with all the options and features these machines have for near the same price. My personal choices where this or a 14 year old Samsung for double the price. A big reason I went with the SMT550 was that there are users on this forum that have had decent luck with the brand and say that customer support is not bad. If it lasts 3 years, I'm good, and ~$9K over that time isnt bad. It'll pay for itself in less than a year and I'll need something far more significant then if my company keeps growing at this rate.

Its on a boat, should be in LA in about 2 weeks, then on to Chicago, eta 29th May. Probably trailer it back 1st week of June.
 

Offline Reckless

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Re: YX SMT660 SMT880 P&P machines
« Reply #4 on: May 08, 2021, 09:17:38 am »
All of my machines have been well under $9k with feeders, tons of spares and I have had 20+ pick place machines in last 2.5 years.  Jukis, samsungs, universals, assembleon/yamaha, fuji.  If you are anywhere near chicago I'd love to stop by to see when you get her up and running.  I want to fall in love with these chinese machines but hard to appreciate once you have gotten used to super industrial machines.  We prefer chip shooters as we need 35k+ cph.
 

Offline JMG

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Re: YX SMT660 SMT880 P&P machines
« Reply #5 on: May 13, 2021, 11:38:05 am »
I'm about a 4 hour drive from Chicago, north of Muskegon, MI.
I wanted a machine with vision, 0402, 144 pin+ LQFP .5mm pitch capabilities and something running on 110V or 220V, and small enough to fit through a standard doorway. Im still a tiny company and I couldn't afford a decent newer name brand machine and I do not have 3 phase. Based on reviews, this seemed like a good bet.

Further updates: I've since asked for an operators manual, tech info, a link to software, anything so I can start learning this machine before it gets here, feeder part numbers and nozzle types available. The literal, word for word reply was "no" and when I pressed again the reply word for word was:

"Hi
 
We test and install the machine before shipping
 
You can check with the user manual when you get the machine
 
Any more problem you can contact with me online such as the whatsapp and skype"


I have zero confidence now and completely regret buying this machine, wishing I'd have bought the Samsung 45 neo.
 

Offline JanL

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Re: YX SMT660 SMT880 P&P machines
« Reply #6 on: May 13, 2021, 12:29:41 pm »
Right now I am in progress of buying this machine too. You can find the nozzle types in your PI or their product sites on Aliba, Aliexpress ... :502*2,503*3,504*4,505*2,506*1 (502 Nozzles for 0402, 503 Nozzle for 0603 n 0805, 504 Nozzle for 0805 n 1206, 505 Nozzle for 3535 led)
The manual you provided for the SMT880 is the same for the SMT550. You won't get more. There are some videos on youtube about the workflow. It doesn't matter wether you look for 550, 660 or 880, it is all the same.
Besides: why didn't you check before buying?
Please let me know about your experiences with the machine.
 

Online Mangozac

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Re: YX SMT660 SMT880 P&P machines
« Reply #7 on: May 13, 2021, 10:14:53 pm »
If I were in the USA I would do exactly as Reckless says and pick up a used brand name machine. It's definitely possible in the price range he suggests.

But I'm not in the USA so I went with a Kayo 1706 (kind of the equivalent of these SMTXX0 machines). It has some quirks but I'm overall very pleased. Support from Kayo has been fantastic, even providing us with software updates (minor bug fixes but more importantly some significant functional upgrades). For more relevance to this discussion they had no problem providing manuals prior to delivery!

All these Chinese machines are the same type of configuration: Juki nozzles and Yamaha CL feeders.
 

Offline Proto

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Re: YX SMT660 SMT880 P&P machines
« Reply #8 on: May 18, 2021, 08:59:50 pm »
Hi Jack,
Sorry for the late reply.

For the money, the 550/660/880 class machines are a sweet spot for PNP value and midrange capability.  The best parts are the linear (X-Y) motion platform which is a magnificent set of CNC machined parts, ballscrews, linear guides and Panasonic servo motors and servo drive electronics. You can go to the Panasonic site and get more information than you will ever need on the drive system alone.  The PC, monitor, keyboard and mouse are serviceable though I replaced the 2nd and 3rd items.  I will mention that the PC comes with a small SSD which I wanted to clone until I got into WIN 7 OS and found too many Chinese language issues to work work through.  The machine driver application and UI are more than I expected and become increasingly familiar with each job setup.

On the other hand, the AC wiring and grounding is serviceable but represents a below grade implementation.  Early failures in the nozzle fast camera array (FASTCAM) could be traced to haphazard grounding (OK, I disconnected some cameras for no good reason).  Fortunately, these were easy to fix.

I did not involve YX except to request new camera modules as the video outputs were sometimes damaged when the cables were disconnected and reconnected to the PC capture board.  The PC and AC input grounds were dependent on being made through chassis paint and that didn't cut it for me (see my solution in the list of modes below).  In addition, the PC and monitor 220V wiring used a taped manual splice.  I replaced this with a PDU - Power Distribution Unit which is an elegant name for a power strip.  I installed one on each side of the machine and made sure the PC, monitor and mains input have been properly grounded to bare metal.

So far, this review is a mixed bag but you would be wrong to think I don't like the 660,  In a few words, it's been AMAZING!!!

I have no prior experience in PNP and own a startup about to release its first range of products.  I would rate the software, minus very few untranslated items as reasonable, fairly intuitive, discoverable, yet feature complete for what I know.  Basically, you can figure out what is meant by the English translations in most cases and can try things.  The camera system calibration parameters for object recognition were a little trouble for me.  I spent some quality time watching one of YX's longer (and annotated) videos on YouTube and made some usage notes before jumping in.
 
Job set up followed the YouTube video closely.  Though not explained there, a PNP list for a single board can be expanded to a panel by selecting board level fiducials on corner images in the panel at which point it can compute a panel PNP list automatically.  By trial, I also learned that a change to the single entered board image will propagate to the other images when you press a button in the UI.  So, as you correct part rotations and other setup issues, you do it for one board in the panel and the 660 SW propagates the change to the other boards.  It even has provision for panels with alternate board images rotated 180 degrees, something I haven't tried yet even though I have such a panel.  A button under production settings called "IS MOUNT" allows you to decide which parts to mount, feeders to use and panel images to populate and elsewhere you can enable feeders and nozzles globally.  You store components from a job to a library and can copy feeder and mount settings from one job to another.

My first board was a 2 image panel with the second image rotated 180 degrees.  However, I used Cadence Panel Editor to produce a panel-level PNP list.  The components on this panel were 1206 passives and SOIC integrated circuits = easy as pie. 

My next job was a 12 image panel of opto boards with 20 leds in a pattern on each board which could have made misalignment very apparent and presentation unsatisfactory.  The leds are 0603 parts which have a molded lens that is smaller than the 0603 substrate and slightly larger than 0402 passives so it was good to see the behavior of the 660 with these small profile parts.  What mistakes were made in placement by the machine were traced to leds bouncing in the feeder such that they were not laying flat for pickup.  Nonetheless, the vacuum nozzles lifted the LEDs, took them to the FASTCAM array and on to the panel where there were placement errors.  The 660 has a screen that presents 6 static images from the FASTCAM array so you can observe part alignment for each pickup cycle.  Then I noticed a setup parameter that allows you to specify the percent deviation in X-Y size as an accept/reject criteria.  With this input, any edge-grab led pickups were rejected and sent to a predefined throw (think discard) area.  After that 0603 LEDs were laid down with great precision.  You really don't want to rework 0603 or 0402 leds!

Overall I did the following modifications to the SMT660:

1. Replaced the supplied 17" monitor with a 19" with the same resolution
2. Machined an offset block to shift the monitor mount in 3 directions due to its new size and clearance requirements
3. Machined the supplied steel monitor tilt mount due to slight mis-alignment of the 4 mounting holes as delivered
4. Replaced the supplied pressure regulator / dryer with a slightly larger but similar assembly
5. Added a digital pressure sensor  to the regulator / dryer output and fed this to what I call a PSI hub and two 4-20mA digital meters, one front and one back near the air inlet
6. Replaced the cap screws attaching each of the 6 doors around the SMT660 with knob-type thumbscrews for quick and easy access to the insides.
7. Replaced mains wiring up the ON/OFF switch with jacketed 3-conductor power cord instead of the 2-conductor insulated but not jacketed wiring that was used.  Provided secure grounding for the AC inlet to the bare chassis.
8. Added a power distribution strip on each side of the SMT660 .  One provides power to the PC, monitor, PSI hub and the left side power distribution strip.  The left side power distribution strip only supplies main power now but will eventually provide power for the Panasonic X and Y linear drive modules and the 24 and 36 volt switching regulators.  These last items are wired with 2-conductor unjacketed mains wiring which I think should at least be double insulated

If I had to do it over again, I would get the SMT880 for the 3-part conveyor system and extra heads.  My oven is a ZBRF660 that I bought from YX as well, though it is sourced from Wezhou Zhengbang.  It is floor-standing, with a conveyor table from Neoden sitting in between it and the 660 for inspection, where the board will automatically stop for placement examination and then proceed to the ZBRF630 for reflow.  I bought the ZBRF630 because it has better build quality than the standard 960/961 reflow ovens, a really nice touchscreen, elevated temperature capability (400C that I probably won't ever use) and robust insulation in the outer cover which stays cold during operation.  In general, you should negotiate for feeders at no charge before buying any more that you need.  In the past month, I purchased 30 8mm x2 mm  and 8mm x 4mm from Neoden.  What I like about Neoden (through ebay) is the pricing is already fair but still negotiable and shipping is reasonable and fast (4-5 days from China). 

The SMT660 and ZBRF630 were purchased through Alibaba using that company's buyer protection program.  In doing so, PayPal funds an Alibaba escrow account for which the buyer is in charge of releasing the money after receiving the equipment and verifying the condition.  The only caveat is the protection is for a fixed period and you may have to extend it or Alibaba will release payment automatically and possibly before you receive the item in the case of cheaper but more lengthy ocean shipment.

My sole contact at YX is Jim Jiang.  Jim always replies to my emails in an hour or less!  He and I go at each other on product selection, pricing, features and shipment terms but always end up making a deal.  When I had camera problems, he requested I make a WhatsApp video demonstrating the problem and testing I had performed.  Then he sent the part(s) with a 2-3 day delivery where I paid for shipment only, during the warranty period.  Currently, I am recovering from a multiple head crash into a feeder in the tape load state - don't ever do this - and installing at least 2 new nozzle rotation stepper motors as I delve more deeply in 0402 part assembly.

Hope this helps,
Proto
« Last Edit: May 18, 2021, 10:34:51 pm by Proto »
 
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Offline Proto

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Re: YX SMT660 SMT880 P&P machines
« Reply #9 on: May 18, 2021, 09:37:56 pm »
Do not be discouraged.

The 110V mod is likely to be a 110/220V, 3KVA step-up transformer, a commercial, nicely packaged toroidal unit.  That's what I got and used until I ran a direct line from my AC panel.  The Panasonic drive electronics and servo motors come in 120 and 240 volt versions.  The 660 uses the higher voltage and perhaps the 3 top models all do it for inventory reasons.  There are two switching power supplies and they like the PC and monitor can take either voltage although they are not auto switching.

Fifteen feeders is great to be thrown in for a 550.  I got 15 for a 660 and was offered 25 for an 880.   In the end, when  stuffed boards come out of the machine its all worth it.

Are you dealing with Jim Jiang at YX? 
 
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Offline 48X24X48X

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Re: YX SMT660 SMT880 P&P machines
« Reply #10 on: May 19, 2021, 12:34:24 am »
Quote
My next job was a 12 image panel of opto boards with 20 leds in a pattern on each board which could have made misalignment very apparent and presentation unsatisfactory.  The leds are 0603 parts which have a molded lens that is smaller than the 0603 substrate and slightly larger than 0402 passives so it was good to see the behavior of the 660 with these small profile parts.  What mistakes were made in placement by the machine were traced to leds bouncing in the feeder such that they were not laying flat for pickup.  Nonetheless, the vacuum nozzles lifted the LEDs, took them to the FASTCAM array and on to the panel where there were placement errors.  The 660 has a screen that presents 6 static images from the FASTCAM array so you can observe part alignment for each pickup cycle.  Then I noticed a setup parameter that allows you to specify the percent deviation in X-Y size as an accept/reject criteria.  With this input, any edge-grab led pickups were rejected and sent to a predefined throw (think discard) area.  After that 0603 LEDs were laid down with great precision.  You really don't want to rework 0603 or 0402 leds!
I found that the only way to solve this issue with my HW-T4-50F (aka SMT550) was to use an electric feeder. I also did try using the LW percentage rejection but that yielded too much of lost components thrown into the reject bin. I also figure out that this bouncing parts only happens if the LED is thinner and lighter. For example 0.3-0.4mm height 0603 LED would produced that bouncing behaviour on the pneumatic based CL feeder but if the LED is of thicker type like 0.6-0.7 mm, that generally reduced the issue down to 1 in 10 picks. But, using thicker LED and electric feeder, that solved my issues completely. So, nowadays I looked the LED height before purchasing.
 
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Offline Proto

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Re: YX SMT660 SMT880 P&P machines
« Reply #11 on: May 19, 2021, 04:44:07 pm »
Thanks for your tips. 

I have seen better results with taller leds.  My yield on a 12 image panel with 240 leds total was already high with maybe 6 misplaced parts due to a bad lie in the tape pocket.  I just wanted to get near perfect yield and the LW parameter in the vision system to deduce an angled pickup allowed that in my 0603 generation.  My new challenge is to beat down the much higher incidence of part bounce with 0402 leds, more often flying right out of the tape pocket on feed advance so there is nothing for the 660 to pick up.  This is where you start changing the number of retries - I went to 6.  It happened with a led vendor I was unfamiliar with and whose parts I paid a lot for per reel.  With my regular led supplier, Everlight, the pocket bounce is very low and placement errors with 0402 parts is about at zero.  So my next trials to get things production tuned is to use Everlight exclusively for 0402 version boards.  My 0603 generation needs tweaking in reflow profiles to prevent or reduce tilt.

Once before, I asked Jim at YX if there was an electric feeder upgrade for the 660 and believe he said no.  If the answer ever becomes yes, I'd be all in.
 

Offline 48X24X48X

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Re: YX SMT660 SMT880 P&P machines
« Reply #12 on: May 19, 2021, 05:40:22 pm »
Thanks for your tips. 

I have seen better results with taller leds.  My yield on a 12 image panel with 240 leds total was already high with maybe 6 misplaced parts due to a bad lie in the tape pocket.  I just wanted to get near perfect yield and the LW parameter in the vision system to deduce an angled pickup allowed that in my 0603 generation.  My new challenge is to beat down the much higher incidence of part bounce with 0402 leds, more often flying right out of the tape pocket on feed advance so there is nothing for the 660 to pick up.  This is where you start changing the number of retries - I went to 6.  It happened with a led vendor I was unfamiliar with and whose parts I paid a lot for per reel.  With my regular led supplier, Everlight, the pocket bounce is very low and placement errors with 0402 parts is about at zero.  So my next trials to get things production tuned is to use Everlight exclusively for 0402 version boards.  My 0603 generation needs tweaking in reflow profiles to prevent or reduce tilt.

Once before, I asked Jim at YX if there was an electric feeder upgrade for the 660 and believe he said no.  If the answer ever becomes yes, I'd be all in.
I guess he sold one without the electric feeder option installed to you. All HWGC machine has electric feeder option.
 

Offline JMG

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Re: YX SMT660 SMT880 P&P machines
« Reply #13 on: May 19, 2021, 09:02:37 pm »
There is an electric feeder option for the 550 for an additional $250 but I refused it as my $7500 machine was already over $9200 before import taxes. Maybe its available as a retro fit? I'm not too worried at the moment as I only go as small as 0603.

Yep I'm dealing with Jim. I've asked Jim for basic information and he just seems pissed off that he's asked, leaving little good will and a lot of concern. I think part of my worry is that I threw all I had to spare at this machine and if its junk, I'm screwed. My tiny company is exploding and adding to the stress that this must succeed. One day, I want to be a little company  :-DD
 
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Offline Jackster

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Re: YX SMT660 SMT880 P&P machines
« Reply #14 on: May 20, 2021, 11:56:24 pm »
Thanks for the writeup Proto and others.

Lots of great info.


Looks like this is the machine for me. I am in a similar position though we are now at product 2. The first 300 boards I did by hand, and will probably be doing another 150 this time before I order this machine. Luckily my electronics guy has a Versatronics RVsomething machine that will do most of the work, hopefully. Would love it for the first run but need the cash first!
While our boards are only have 30-50 components each, it is mostly 0602 and a couple 0402. So I am not after Yamaha or Samsung level accuracy. Nor an I looking for high CPH..

Having bought a few dozen bits of equipment, nothing this expensive yet, looks to be the standard list of things to fix or make somewhat suitable for Western standards.

Dual monitors is definitely something I would like.

As for feeders. They offered me 35x 8mm feeders with the 880. Though I got another 5 out of them for free. I was planning on buying a few 12mm and 16mm as well as a single 24mm. Will also need a vibration feeder too.
I have budgeted for 2-4 electronic 8mm feeders.
Been watching Unexpected Maker and his CharmHigh p&p fiasco and it looks like these used / knockoff feeders do bounce small components a lot. Wondering if it can be fixed with a higher quality oem cylinder? I do have a few 0402 components but only 2 LEDs. The others are diodes that are also quite light so thinking they are best off in an electronic feeder too.

From the sounds of it. Adding electronic feeders is just adding a power supply? Don't they still use the pneumatic to know when to push a new component out?

I too am dealing with Jim. While he has been pushy with me saying the free feeders is the first time they have done it and that the deal was only for 2 days. He has been alright overall.
He provided me with the files attached to post 1 without a comment.

My biggest concern is the software.
I would love to get my hands on it and see if my mates could hack into it and make it better for larger monitors. Looks like they are using the basic VS Forms to make the UI. Any chance you could send me a copy of the software package?
« Last Edit: May 21, 2021, 12:02:47 am by Jackster »
 

Offline 48X24X48X

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Re: YX SMT660 SMT880 P&P machines
« Reply #15 on: May 21, 2021, 06:07:39 am »
Thanks for the writeup Proto and others.

Lots of great info.


Looks like this is the machine for me. I am in a similar position though we are now at product 2. The first 300 boards I did by hand, and will probably be doing another 150 this time before I order this machine. Luckily my electronics guy has a Versatronics RVsomething machine that will do most of the work, hopefully. Would love it for the first run but need the cash first!
While our boards are only have 30-50 components each, it is mostly 0602 and a couple 0402. So I am not after Yamaha or Samsung level accuracy. Nor an I looking for high CPH..

Having bought a few dozen bits of equipment, nothing this expensive yet, looks to be the standard list of things to fix or make somewhat suitable for Western standards.

Dual monitors is definitely something I would like.

As for feeders. They offered me 35x 8mm feeders with the 880. Though I got another 5 out of them for free. I was planning on buying a few 12mm and 16mm as well as a single 24mm. Will also need a vibration feeder too.
I have budgeted for 2-4 electronic 8mm feeders.
Been watching Unexpected Maker and his CharmHigh p&p fiasco and it looks like these used / knockoff feeders do bounce small components a lot. Wondering if it can be fixed with a higher quality oem cylinder? I do have a few 0402 components but only 2 LEDs. The others are diodes that are also quite light so thinking they are best off in an electronic feeder too.

From the sounds of it. Adding electronic feeders is just adding a power supply? Don't they still use the pneumatic to know when to push a new component out?

I too am dealing with Jim. While he has been pushy with me saying the free feeders is the first time they have done it and that the deal was only for 2 days. He has been alright overall.
He provided me with the files attached to post 1 without a comment.

My biggest concern is the software.
I would love to get my hands on it and see if my mates could hack into it and make it better for larger monitors. Looks like they are using the basic VS Forms to make the UI. Any chance you could send me a copy of the software package?
They do have a new machine which is basically a 2 4-head machine cascaded into 1 machine. It's huge but you basically have a hundred feeders with a pair of 4-heads running concurrently. If you haven't buy the older 8-head, it's worth the check. But not sure reseller like YX offering them already to market outside of China. I deal directly with HWGC though.

There's a row of electric power socket if you ordered them installed. I got my machine from Beijing Glichn and they specifically told me it is not included unless ordered by customer. My HW-T4-50F is about USD6.3K shipped to Malaysia by boat but without import broker, but we found one local company that helps to do all those import stuff and shipping for USD350. As they are based in Beijing but the boat service depart from Guangzhou, I arranged a land shipping from Beijing all the way to the south. They didn't charged me for that as I no longer use their bundled sea shipping from Beijing to Malaysia (that tells you how cheap is sea shipping!). On top of that price, I added about 22x of 8mm, 4x of 12mm, 4x of 16mm and a vibration feeder. Total with machine about USD8K++. Since then, I ordered a bunch more pneumatic feeder and electric feeders. But, I have since stop purchasing 8mm pneumatic feeder and instead investing only on electric feeder. Will probably sell off all my pneumatic 8mm feeders too in the near future. The electric feeder still uses the existing solenoid air as a triggering signal for the electric motor to advance the tape.

The software is locked to each machine with each software installation requires a key generated based on the machine ID by them. The new software is no longer locked to the 4:3 aspect ratio last I asked the lead software developer. I don't have much space, else I would use a bigger monitor too. My advise to you, try the software first and you will be surprised how usable it is. The latest version is really a big upgrade.
 

Offline Jackster

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Re: YX SMT660 SMT880 P&P machines
« Reply #16 on: May 21, 2021, 11:57:38 am »
They do have a new machine which is basically a 2 4-head machine cascaded into 1 machine. It's huge but you basically have a hundred feeders with a pair of 4-heads running concurrently. If you haven't buy the older 8-head, it's worth the check. But not sure reseller like YX offering them already to market outside of China. I deal directly with HWGC though.

There's a row of electric power socket if you ordered them installed. I got my machine from Beijing Glichn and they specifically told me it is not included unless ordered by customer. My HW-T4-50F is about USD6.3K shipped to Malaysia by boat but without import broker, but we found one local company that helps to do all those import stuff and shipping for USD350. As they are based in Beijing but the boat service depart from Guangzhou, I arranged a land shipping from Beijing all the way to the south. They didn't charged me for that as I no longer use their bundled sea shipping from Beijing to Malaysia (that tells you how cheap is sea shipping!). On top of that price, I added about 22x of 8mm, 4x of 12mm, 4x of 16mm and a vibration feeder. Total with machine about USD8K++. Since then, I ordered a bunch more pneumatic feeder and electric feeders. But, I have since stop purchasing 8mm pneumatic feeder and instead investing only on electric feeder. Will probably sell off all my pneumatic 8mm feeders too in the near future. The electric feeder still uses the existing solenoid air as a triggering signal for the electric motor to advance the tape.

The software is locked to each machine with each software installation requires a key generated based on the machine ID by them. The new software is no longer locked to the 4:3 aspect ratio last I asked the lead software developer. I don't have much space, else I would use a bigger monitor too. My advise to you, try the software first and you will be surprised how usable it is. The latest version is really a big upgrade.

Ill ask them about this new machine. See what info I can get.



YX has electric feeders from $250. So they are 8mm.
Their vibration feeder is also $250.

Neoden sells 8mm and vibration feeder for $199 and

Full pricing from YX, HWGC and Neoden here
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1o59ew0r3EL1JKFsNjkMwd5DyvhckeIeWCILkPt-afos/edit?usp=sharing

HWGC just said they would offer the same free feeder deal as YX.
HWGC shipping to port is free if you ask for it. They don't offer Door 2 Door. YX offers Door to Door for free.

Updated the OP with spec, pricing and more info about the machines. Will continue to document them while I wait for 3D printer to finish :p
« Last Edit: May 21, 2021, 01:09:16 pm by Jackster »
 

Offline 48X24X48X

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The *HWGC* you are dealing with on Alibaba and Aliexpress is also just a reseller like YX. They paid some royalty and licensing fee to use their name. The factory haven't do any international sales for now. I doubt that you could get any information on the new machine, it's not up on any of their website or local Taobao store. But order book has been opened.

You can get the electrical feeder from Beijing Glichn for much better pricing. I have looked around in Shenzhen areas for feeder supplier, nothing beat their pricing. So, either I didn't dig deep enough into the supply chain or they are just being nice to me.  :P

Neoden does sell some stuff cheaper than others. Their 24 mm pneumatic feeder is cheaper than anyone out there. Cheapest 8 mm pneumatic CL Yamaha clones I have bought is around USD14 second hand on and new at USD43 on Taobao. Some of these *new* are actually refurbished feeders. Be careful of that.
 

Offline Jackster

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The *HWGC* you are dealing with on Alibaba and Aliexpress is also just a reseller like YX. They paid some royalty and licensing fee to use their name. The factory haven't do any international sales for now. I doubt that you could get any information on the new machine, it's not up on any of their website or local Taobao store. But order book has been opened.

You can get the electrical feeder from Beijing Glichn for much better pricing. I have looked around in Shenzhen areas for feeder supplier, nothing beat their pricing. So, either I didn't dig deep enough into the supply chain or they are just being nice to me.  :P

Neoden does sell some stuff cheaper than others. Their 24 mm pneumatic feeder is cheaper than anyone out there. Cheapest 8 mm pneumatic CL Yamaha clones I have bought is around USD14 second hand on and new at USD43 on Taobao. Some of these *new* are actually refurbished feeders. Be careful of that.

But they just told me they are the manufacturer. Are you telling me they are not telling the truth?  :-DD

I asked YX and all they have said is "but it is not so stable". Guess that means it is still early days and not ready for selling.

Oh nice find with Beijing Glichn. 8mm electric feeder is $150.
They resel the 80 feeder as the "GP800". I have requested a quote along with my feeders to see what they offer.

What is the consensus on refurbished OEM or clone feeders? Which ones are better?
 

Offline 48X24X48X

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I made friends with the HWGC guys when I went over their factory in Beijing (Glichn helped to organize the trip as it is located outskirt of Beijing) and also their showroom factory in Shenzhen. So, I know exactly who I'm dealing with.

I doubt there's new original Yamaha CL feeder in the market anymore. These are just copies or refurbished copies. There are subtle differences though between suppliers which i noticed. But, what I would recommend is buying only from 1 supplier. The part that holds the reels can be of different shape and width. So, when you have feeders from various supplier, they tend to be a bit tight when sitting to each other. And I really hate my electric feeder sitting next to pneumatic ones due to their shapes on the handle making it hard to remove and install them.
 

Offline Jackster

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I made friends with the HWGC guys when I went over their factory in Beijing (Glichn helped to organize the trip as it is located outskirt of Beijing) and also their showroom factory in Shenzhen. So, I know exactly who I'm dealing with.

I doubt there's new original Yamaha CL feeder in the market anymore. These are just copies or refurbished copies. There are subtle differences though between suppliers which i noticed. But, what I would recommend is buying only from 1 supplier. The part that holds the reels can be of different shape and width. So, when you have feeders from various supplier, they tend to be a bit tight when sitting to each other. And I really hate my electric feeder sitting next to pneumatic ones due to their shapes on the handle making it hard to remove and install them.

Just been talking with Glichn and they have this similar machine called the FPT800.
Same spec as the 80 feeders YX/HWGC but with a single fly cam instead of 8+high res, dual monitors, integrated silent air compressor and what looks to be quite different UI software.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1NoAtoTSaUZ_ZAEOKMr3qvz0z5GqYgdnf/view?usp=sharing


Price with electric feeder upgrade, 40x 8mm feeders and shipping to my door, $15500.
Feeders are basically the same price as Neoden though $65 more for the 24mm.

No English manual yet, they are working on it.

« Last Edit: May 21, 2021, 04:40:30 pm by Jackster »
 

Offline TIOUK

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We have an SMT660 and been using it for a year. Came with 35 free 8mm feeders, but we bought 20 more + some 12, 16 & 24mm, stick feeder, extra nozzels. We had the $250 electric option free when we bought 2 electric feeders. We have since bought a load more, if you have the budget get them upfront where you will get a better deal for the larger order. Jim is good to work with, although he will always try and sell you more! The big 24mm feeders are a pain, they move so fast parts get shaken out with more on the floor than on the boards, so some parts like HC49 crystals are being designed out for 3.2x2.5 in 8mm tape, but that's a feeder issue not a machine issue.

We will getting 2 or 3 more machines, but just put it back as we have real issues with sourcing parts. Don't fret about your machine, it will be good, in the time other people on here have been fixing their used bargain machine, our increased profit to paid for the machine times over. I also used an RV4S for a while during our early days, while it helped us progress, the SMT660 is in another league.

When you work out the software process it is quick to setup, but you can't get a look/feel for the software as it won't startup without a machine attached even if you could get hold of a copy. The manual is bare minimum watch online videos, there isn't a lot to learn. Make sure you set it up accurately. The conveyor default speed is too high, the belt slides under the PCB, slow it down to 4 and a 1.5 second delay. The crosshair in the camera view is by default yellow, change it to red as you get a much better view. You will need to tweak the fid recognition settings (brightness/contrast) to get it working, but once you have it right it will work reliably with FID1 upper left and FID2 bottom right. My biggest wish is to have a manual selection of the feeder order/position rather than the built-in optimisation that sometimes insists you move a feeder to a new position. We had no issues with the electrical safety of the machine, it was checked out by a top notch sparky and tested out OK. I have never run it full speed, it's too fast to keep up with at the door open speed.

We got a silent type compressor for air like: eBay auction: #173975839172, it provides enough air at the right pressure, but the duty cycle is high and it over heats and shuts down so we have another not so silent one daisy chained that we had lying around. We also added an SMC membrane air dryer inline like this on eBay auction: #143480683473 for $55.
 
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Offline MasterTech

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Re: YX SMT660 SMT880 P&P machines
« Reply #22 on: May 21, 2021, 05:51:01 pm »
Will probably sell off all my pneumatic 8mm feeders too in the near future.

Let me know I will probably be interested in 10 or 20...
What SW version do you have?


I'm also a recent owner of the HW-T4SG. It's the first Pnp that I own and I'm happy for now. Still learning many things about it, but in one day I was able to mount a few components from a board. I had to calibrate the feeder pickup position as it was off by 1 or 2mm. Also I had to up the led lightness to improve camera recognition. Other than that I'm still planning for a large batch to make.

 

Offline Jackster

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Are these feeder issues universal with Yamaha CL or just on these lower-cost machines?
I am tempted to order a single 8mm and do some tests to see how they work and what is wrong with them at this point.
Got a somewhat high-speed camera that I can set up and view different parts of the mechanism.


@TIOUK could I buy one off ya?  ;D
 

Offline 48X24X48X

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We have an SMT660 and been using it for a year. Came with 35 free 8mm feeders, but we bought 20 more + some 12, 16 & 24mm, stick feeder, extra nozzels. We had the $250 electric option free when we bought 2 electric feeders. We have since bought a load more, if you have the budget get them upfront where you will get a better deal for the larger order. Jim is good to work with, although he will always try and sell you more! The big 24mm feeders are a pain, they move so fast parts get shaken out with more on the floor than on the boards, so some parts like HC49 crystals are being designed out for 3.2x2.5 in 8mm tape, but that's a feeder issue not a machine issue.

We will getting 2 or 3 more machines, but just put it back as we have real issues with sourcing parts. Don't fret about your machine, it will be good, in the time other people on here have been fixing their used bargain machine, our increased profit to paid for the machine times over. I also used an RV4S for a while during our early days, while it helped us progress, the SMT660 is in another league.

When you work out the software process it is quick to setup, but you can't get a look/feel for the software as it won't startup without a machine attached even if you could get hold of a copy. The manual is bare minimum watch online videos, there isn't a lot to learn. Make sure you set it up accurately. The conveyor default speed is too high, the belt slides under the PCB, slow it down to 4 and a 1.5 second delay. The crosshair in the camera view is by default yellow, change it to red as you get a much better view. You will need to tweak the fid recognition settings (brightness/contrast) to get it working, but once you have it right it will work reliably with FID1 upper left and FID2 bottom right. My biggest wish is to have a manual selection of the feeder order/position rather than the built-in optimisation that sometimes insists you move a feeder to a new position. We had no issues with the electrical safety of the machine, it was checked out by a top notch sparky and tested out OK. I have never run it full speed, it's too fast to keep up with at the door open speed.

We got a silent type compressor for air like: eBay auction: #173975839172, it provides enough air at the right pressure, but the duty cycle is high and it over heats and shuts down so we have another not so silent one daisy chained that we had lying around. We also added an SMC membrane air dryer inline like this on eBay auction: #143480683473 for $55.

You can assign the feeder manually. That is what I did in the beginning because I thought I could save some time across different projects that uses same base components (capacitor, resistor, LED) by putting them at specific same location. Then I realized that when I do that, the pick and place process is not optimized and a lot slower compared to when the software assign them. It is a lot faster because the software optimized to fill up all the head at 1 go and bringing them over the camera (if all falls under fast camera) at 1 go too. You might be having an older software? Because that is what I heard from a fellow Malaysian compatriot that owned a few of the HW-T6-64F. So, if I'm not wrong you are probably 2 version behind.

The air supply requirement is basically 60 liter and above with air flow rate of minimum 120l/m. I got a 50 liter with 180 l/m unit, silence and oil-free. I doubt there is any oil-free and silence air compressor above 60 liter. And yes, make sure you have the in-line air filter and spend some money on that because it will save you all the trouble related to pneumatic.
 


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