HWGC P&P machines - Documentation, Discussion and Info

[pastaclub]

Hi there, let’s talk feeders. Some people have expressed their preference for electric over pneumatic feeders. But what exactly are the advantages?

I recall reading that they have smoother movement and adjustable component distance (one or two holes). What else? Is it mostly critical for light small components? For 0603 resistors or LEDs, why should I prefer electric feeders? And is there any disadvantage when mixing pneumatic and electric?

[48X24X48X]

Hi there, let’s talk feeders. Some people have expressed their preference for electric over pneumatic feeders. But what exactly are the advantages?

I recall reading that they have smoother movement and adjustable component distance (one or two holes). What else? Is it mostly critical for light small components? For 0603 resistors or LEDs, why should I prefer electric feeders? And is there any disadvantage when mixing pneumatic and electric?

Pros:
- smoother tape advancing mechanism helps light components on plastic tape from jumping or flipping out.
- can be used for both 2 mm and 4 mm pocket distance components (0201,0402 vs 0603,0805,etc) which allows you to keep 1 type of 8 mm feeder instead of 2 types.
- doesn't depend very much on the quality of the air supply. The air is used as a signal to advance the tape only.
- less component loss due to cover tape removal (eg: 3 vs 6 for 0603 resistor).
- can be used for small 0201 components due to better precision.
- way much less noise due to no pneumatic actuation.

Cons:
- expensive (3x the price of pneumatic ones for 8 mm version, even more for wider tape version).
- not much gap when sit between pneumatic feeders, best installing feeder from left to right or right to left. Best if all are electrical feeders but it's not a deal breaker.
- probably harder to service if goes kaput.

[Styno]

[...]

I assume this post is valid for the Yamaha feeders on the pre-2021 models, i.e. HW-T8-80-F/SMT880. I like to know how this translates to the newer machines with Fuji NXT feeders. I assume the advantages are the same (smoother, variable step settings, quieter). But how about: Are the NXT feeders also pneumatically activated? Are those 'smart' feeders, i.e. does the feeder know which part is loaded, how many have been placed and communicates this with the PnP machine?

I searched to get some more info on the NXT feeders and found that there are three generations that seem to be interchangeable but could not find much more..

[48X24X48X]

[...]

I assume this post is valid for the Yamaha feeders on the pre-2021 models, i.e. HW-T8-80-F/SMT880. I like to know how this translates to the newer machines with Fuji NXT feeders. I assume the advantages are the same (smoother, variable step settings, quieter). But how about: Are the NXT feeders also pneumatically activated? Are those 'smart' feeders, i.e. does the feeder know which part is loaded, how many have been placed and communicates this with the PnP machine?

I searched to get some more info on the NXT feeders and found that there are three generations that seem to be interchangeable but could not find much more..

They are purely electrical and actuated by electric signals. But, I'm not sure if there's a communication on that or purely a trigger signal. There's no pneumatic holes on the feeder slot. Other than that, it requires a reels rack to hold the component reels. I think these are preferred as it is easier to splice tape on the fly. And lastly, they are more expensive than the Yamaha electrical feeder.

[vstrulev]

Good evening everyone! Very proud of ourselves: my son and me. We've built a feeder cabinet, kind of. It may hold 44 cl8 and 11 cl24/32 feeders. Three racks and on wheels. Pictures are attached. I consider this as one of the most important pieces of assembly shop. If anyone is interested let me know and I'll list all the needed supplies and parts.

[Jackster]

My machine arrived on Monday! Here is a little photo dump.

Overall, the machine arrived in great condition. A few marks here and there. 2 large holes in the pallet that Pallet Force placed shipping labels over 

Already got it up and running. Looks to be working well. Not picked any components yet though. Will be doing that next week.

[48X24X48X]

The new ones all come with the LED light diffuser. It was said it improved the vision system.

[JanL]

I encountered a strange behavior in one of my boards lately. Parts with a rotation of -179.xx are not rotated correctly. There are only rotated like -150 degrees. When I change rotation to 0.xx degrees (only an option for Rs and Cs) it works perfectly. Any idea what can cause this?

[48X24X48X]

I encountered a strange behavior in one of my boards lately. Parts with a rotation of -179.xx are not rotated correctly. There are only rotated like -150 degrees. When I change rotation to 0.xx degrees (only an option for Rs and Cs) it works perfectly. Any idea what can cause this?

Very likely related to the vision settings which I believe could have been unintentionally changed probably due to software upgrade?
Usually, it can due to:

• The radius of scan is smaller than the components
• The threshold has been set wrong

They tend to have over writing default setting when new version comes out. The new version also probably has the LED diffuser attached to the camera which they "might" tested it with the new software and hence maybe adjustment to the settings? This is just my assumption.

[JanL]

Very likely related to the vision settings which I believe could have been unintentionally changed probably due to software upgrade?
Usually, it can due to:

• The radius of scan is smaller than the components
• The threshold has been set wrong

They tend to have over writing default setting when new version comes out. The new version also probably has the LED diffuser attached to the camera which they "might" tested it with the new software and hence maybe adjustment to the settings? This is just my assumption.

I checked radius, threshold and placement height several times. They are fine. As I said, 0.xx degrees work perfectly. All those wrongly placed parts have in common, that they are rotateted to -179.xx degrees. When I change rotation on Rs and Cs to 0.xx degrees everything is fine. It looks like there is a limitation to the rotation? It should not happen as the nozzels can rotate endlessly. And it happened to 0603 too. But only this board. And not related to one specific nozzle. I have to check further ...

[48X24X48X]

Very likely related to the vision settings which I believe could have been unintentionally changed probably due to software upgrade?
Usually, it can due to:

• The radius of scan is smaller than the components
• The threshold has been set wrong

They tend to have over writing default setting when new version comes out. The new version also probably has the LED diffuser attached to the camera which they "might" tested it with the new software and hence maybe adjustment to the settings? This is just my assumption.

I checked radius, threshold and placement height several times. They are fine. As I said, 0.xx degrees work perfectly. All those wrongly placed parts have in common, that they are rotateted to -179.xx degrees. When I change rotation on Rs and Cs to 0.xx degrees everything is fine. It looks like there is a limitation to the rotation? It should not happen as the nozzels can rotate endlessly. And it happened to 0603 too. But only this board. And not related to one specific nozzle. I have to check further ...

What version is the software? I have yet to install the 8.8.7_T39.

[JanL]

The version is 8.8.7_T12_R

[48X24X48X]

I'm on the same revision as you but haven't seen this before, fortunately.

[pastaclub]

Did you try 179.00 deg? This sounds almost like a software bug where some developer forgot that the number is not an integer and assumes that if it‘s not <= 179 then it must be >= 180 or something like that.

[Starman760]

Hi.  First post here.  This thread is great!  Thanks to everyone for sharing your knowledge.

Does anyone have some general tips for setting up the high-def camera.  I have a tqfp64 chip that I can't get to place properly.  It always gets shifted or rotated slightly.  The best placement comes when I don't use the camera at all.  But it is still off a bit and I need to nudge it which sometimes leads to solder bridges.

[Jackster]

Hi.  First post here.  This thread is great!  Thanks to everyone for sharing your knowledge.

Does anyone have some general tips for setting up the high-def camera.  I have a tqfp64 chip that I can't get to place properly.  It always gets shifted or rotated slightly.  The best placement comes when I don't use the camera at all.  But it is still off a bit and I need to nudge it which sometimes leads to solder bridges.

Have you calibrated the nozzles with the high camera?
I found the LEDs too bright on the high cam also, I turn them right down for better performance.
It has quite a lot of depth of focus unlike the fast cams so the nozzle assembly can show up as part of the component when the LEDs are above 20%

[48X24X48X]

Hi.  First post here.  This thread is great!  Thanks to everyone for sharing your knowledge.

Does anyone have some general tips for setting up the high-def camera.  I have a tqfp64 chip that I can't get to place properly.  It always gets shifted or rotated slightly.  The best placement comes when I don't use the camera at all.  But it is still off a bit and I need to nudge it which sometimes leads to solder bridges.

Make sure your radius is adequate. Adjust the threshold value to a value where when you open up the vision test window to observe at the x & y & angle dimension measured, these values are updated every second of so, ensure the deviation of the dimension value to value should be very tiny. Use the threshold and adjust until the value deviation is the least, doesn't jump around with high deviation and closest to your physical dimension. If, it's a 10x10 mm TQFP, make sure it's close to that. On top of that, make sure the IC height is correctly entered.

[Starman760]

Thank you for the replies!

Yes, I have gone through the entire calibration procedure with the plastic nozzles with the tips painted silver.

I think my biggest problem is my lack of understanding of radius and threshold and how to check if they are correct.  I see how to adjust them but I don't know how to check the deviations you spoke of.  My chip is indeed a 10mm tqfp.  Can you suggest a starting radius and threshold?

[Starman760]

These are the parameters for my High cam when I start up the machine:

LED level: 170 (still seems bright to my eyes)
Scan R: 300
Threshold:  0 (must be incorrect)
Capture Delay: 100

[48X24X48X]

Check your threshold. Impossible it could work with 0. Adjust until the vision system's rectangular green box encapsulate your IC dimension exactly.

The radius is a circle of area where to vision system would work on. Just make sure it cover more than your IC with some allowance if it were to picked slightly off-center.

Just pick the part to the camera and click on the vision test, then click on the camera image, a window should pop out with a run-time showing all the parameters like dimension and angle offset. Check out my video part 2, there should be some example to do this.

[Starman760]

Thanks for the reply!

I watched your video #2  It looks like I need to upgrade software to v8.  I do not have the Visual Debug function in the v7 I am running.

[Harriet_Li]

Actually, if you want, they can sell you one, which looks like

[48X24X48X]

Actually, if you want, they can sell you one, which looks like

(Attachment Link)

There's plenty of these on Taobao for RMB600. Prices on Aliexpress is a lot more than that though.

[Jackster]

Actually, if you want, they can sell you one, which looks like

(Attachment Link)

There's plenty of these on Taobao for RMB600. Prices on Aliexpress is a lot more than that though.

After import, they are like £600 each in the UK :/ That is if one does not get a container next year...

Already got CAD model drawn up. The feeder bar is about £50-85 for 100cm wide with holes laser cut for Yamaha CL.
Should be able to make the rest of the trolley out of a single length of aluminium. Looking at £250 max per trolley if I get the guys next door to my business unit to weld the frame for me.
That will include casters and fixings.

Needless to say, if anyone in the UK ones one or a few, I can get the price down if I make more. They will be flat pack so shipping should not be too much or collection/delivery if you are in Midlands.

[Starman760]

Thanks to Rocket Scream for posting the videos.  It helped me alot.  I am now running v8.8.7 and it is a big difference to how I was using the system before.

Does anyone know if there is a way to re-order the placement groups?  I have a tall part that gets placed on the front row of boards on a panel.  When the next row is being placed, the part runs into the previously placed part.  If I could change the order of groups, I could solve this issue.