Boring topic - drilling RPM range etc - affordable bench drill, German market

[Benta]

"for wood drilling, use a template" - how would that look like?

Simply a steel or brass plate with a hole. You clamp it to your workpiece. It will stop the drill from skidding/flexing.

Proxxon... they seem to be available nowhere currently.

Proxxon is really for very small scale work and much lighter than the Bosch.

[jpanhalt]

@TimFox
Re: V-belt drives
If you haven't tried Fenner Drives "Power Twist" adjustable belts, I highly recommend them.  They are much smoother running, particularly for the small radiuses one encounters on drill presses and so forth.  At first, I was quite skeptical, then after trying one years ago on my cabinet model shaper/moulder, that is all I will use. Be careful in your source.  There are many imitations, including ones sold on Amazon and even using the Power Twist TM (I got burned by that last year). One obvious difference is that actual Fenner drives have the links labeled (attached).  QC Supply (qcsupply.com) is the source I eventually used.  I am sure there are others.  I have not actually tried the cheap knock-offs on a machine.  I just wasn't impressed with how they felt.

[SilverSolder]

I think you need to take a holiday outside the US to learn what the world looks like.
Wal-Mart tried to establish itself in the EU and failed miserably. And Harbor Freight would be the total joke here.

Why would HF be a total joke?  - there is definitely a niche for tools that won't be used many times, so don't have to be superbly made (and therefore modestly priced!)

HF is on the very lowest level of cheap Chinese tools. They would be mauled in the EU trade press.
I used to subscribe to some US magazines, but quickly stopped. All product reviews were so gushingly positive so as to be completely useless, regardless of whether the product was a total POS.
The EU trade press take their readers seriousely instead of just kowtowing to the advertisers.

Yeah, "enthusiastic" sales and marketing bods can be a bit of a pain....

On the other hand, not every product you buy has to be high-end to do an acceptable job (if you are a billionaire, different rules apply...).

With HF, you kind of have to pick and choose.  Some of their products are very poor, but you just ignore those...  caveat emptor!  -  An example of one of their good products, they have a 12V car battery float charger often available on sale for around $5.  I have a few of them (4 or 5).  I tested them on the bench, and they performed very well.  They work great in the garage, keeping various vehicles, powered equipment, and stand-by batteries alive during the winter season.  Not one of those chargers has ever broken or malfunctioned (some of them >10 years old).   I could have bought a pile of nice microprocessor controlled float chargers instead...  but I would have been several $100 poorer, for what benefit?

[Fred27]

I'm happy with my (German made) Proxxon TBM220 with the optional chuck. It's intended for model making and definitely on the smaller side. I intended to use it for PCB drilling, etc. but I've been surprised how capable it is with bigger stuff. I've drilled 6mm holes into mild steel without a problem.

[TinkeringSteve]

Bosch PBD 40:
Ok, here comes a DeepL translation of German amazon reviews:

Negative:
- The column is a thin-walled tube. When you tighten the clamp, the column bends measurably backwards and the drilling angle changes slightly.
- The handwheel is more awkward than the more common 3-lever version.
- If you press laterally on the wheel, the machine has some play even when clamped.
- If you adjust the height of the machine on the column, the drilling point can move 2-3 mm laterally when you tighten the clamp again. So you always have to realign when you readjust.
- The drill chuck has slight play in all directions, but the concentricity is still acceptable for wood.
- The laser cross disappears when the distance between the machine and the workpiece is low, so you typically don't see it when the drill is close to the workpiece.
- I have been able to examine various examples of the machine, and clearance and laser alignment have some series variation or possibly change with the age of the machine. I would always use the center point of the drill instead of the laser.

There are many reports on the net about lack of precision and mechanical play in various places. I think you can work with the machine to +/- 1 mm accuracy in wood if you take your time. But fast repeatable, precise series drilling is not in my opinion.

The last pragraph does not sound encouraging!

A bench drill should be quite accurate, because otherwise a cordless drill is enough.
And unfortunately, this is the crux of the matter ... The tolerance limit is obviously seen very loosely by Bosch. It may still be sufficient for wood (school grade D), but it's not acceptable for metal.
It starts with the drill chuck, which is a joke, because expensive drill bits fall on the drill table if you are not careful. The lock (the red ring) is "unpredictable!!!) The play of the quill has already been sufficiently criticized.

They mention the weird wheel on that thing.
I do rmember actually trying that in a local shop, and I much prefer any 1 to 3 lever thingies on machines I tried to the indeed awkward handling that wheel provides


As for the Proxxon TBM220, the maximum diameter of drill one can use (3.2mm or something IIRC) is too small to be useful for my stuff.

[SilverSolder]

I'm happy with my (German made) Proxxon TBM220 with the optional chuck. It's intended for model making and definitely on the smaller side. I intended to use it for PCB drilling, etc. but I've been surprised how capable it is with bigger stuff. I've drilled 6mm holes into mild steel without a problem.

I get as impressed by a big Tormach CNC machining center as the next guy, but I have even more respect for the guy that can crank out nice work using modest equipment by using skill and imagination!

[Benta]

Bosch PBD 40:
Ok, here comes a DeepL translation of German amazon reviews:

Negative:
- The column is a thin-walled tube. When you tighten the clamp, the column bends measurably backwards and the drilling angle changes slightly.
- The handwheel is more awkward than the more common 3-lever version.
- If you press laterally on the wheel, the machine has some play even when clamped.
- If you adjust the height of the machine on the column, the drilling point can move 2-3 mm laterally when you tighten the clamp again. So you always have to realign when you readjust.
- The drill chuck has slight play in all directions, but the concentricity is still acceptable for wood.
- The laser cross disappears when the distance between the machine and the workpiece is low, so you typically don't see it when the drill is close to the workpiece.
- I have been able to examine various examples of the machine, and clearance and laser alignment have some series variation or possibly change with the age of the machine. I would always use the center point of the drill instead of the laser.

There are many reports on the net about lack of precision and mechanical play in various places. I think you can work with the machine to +/- 1 mm accuracy in wood if you take your time. But fast repeatable, precise series drilling is not in my opinion.

The last pragraph does not sound encouraging!

A bench drill should be quite accurate, because otherwise a cordless drill is enough.
And unfortunately, this is the crux of the matter ... The tolerance limit is obviously seen very loosely by Bosch. It may still be sufficient for wood (school grade D), but it's not acceptable for metal.
It starts with the drill chuck, which is a joke, because expensive drill bits fall on the drill table if you are not careful. The lock (the red ring) is "unpredictable!!!) The play of the quill has already been sufficiently criticized.

They mention the weird wheel on that thing.
I do rmember actually trying that in a local shop, and I much prefer any 1 to 3 lever thingies on machines I tried to the indeed awkward handling that wheel provides

That guy is either talking through his hat or paid by competition.
First, he/she apparently expects a Ferrari 458, when the budget is for a +15 years old VW Golf/Rabbit. I'm already slapping my thighs (remember, I own a PBD 40).
Let's take the complaints one by one:
1: The column is a round, ground, polished steel tube. I see absolutely no deflection when tightening the head clamp.
2: the handwheel needs getting used to. I agree there, but after working with the machine a few times it's no longer an issue.
3: Not true. There is a bit of play if the head is not clamped, but this is true for every round-column drill.
4: This is true, and also true for every round-column machine on the market. But the play is not as large as he/she claims. And the laser helps here. Additionally, needing to move the head during a drilling operations is bad setup, and even worse: bad workmanship.
5: Drill chucks are never precise. If someone believes that, I have an Eiffel Tower for sale.
6: So what? The Laser is for rough alignment, nothing else. Ignore that and imagine you don't have a Laser. Most drills don't.
7: No comment. That's too subjective and emotional to me.

The last paragraph is the final joke. "Expensive drill bits fall on the table...". This person does not know how to mount a drill in a chuck? And should the drill fall, it will not land on the table (there's a hole there), further, the table is aluminium and can not damage a drill.
Laughable.
And apparently written in really ill will.

[BrokenYugo]

No matter what you're usually doing, the lower speed it can go and the heavier (i.e. rigid) it is, the better. If you need to move your heavy drill press they tend to quickly disassemble to manageable chunks, motor comes off the head, head comes off the pillar, table comes off the pillar, then you have 4 easy to move parts.

So of the two, the one that weights nearly twice as much despite not being much larger, and goes down to 180 rpm.

[SilverSolder]

Bosch PBD 40:
Ok, here comes a DeepL translation of German amazon reviews:

Negative:
- The column is a thin-walled tube. When you tighten the clamp, the column bends measurably backwards and the drilling angle changes slightly.
- The handwheel is more awkward than the more common 3-lever version.
- If you press laterally on the wheel, the machine has some play even when clamped.
- If you adjust the height of the machine on the column, the drilling point can move 2-3 mm laterally when you tighten the clamp again. So you always have to realign when you readjust.
- The drill chuck has slight play in all directions, but the concentricity is still acceptable for wood.
- The laser cross disappears when the distance between the machine and the workpiece is low, so you typically don't see it when the drill is close to the workpiece.
- I have been able to examine various examples of the machine, and clearance and laser alignment have some series variation or possibly change with the age of the machine. I would always use the center point of the drill instead of the laser.

There are many reports on the net about lack of precision and mechanical play in various places. I think you can work with the machine to +/- 1 mm accuracy in wood if you take your time. But fast repeatable, precise series drilling is not in my opinion.

The last pragraph does not sound encouraging!

A bench drill should be quite accurate, because otherwise a cordless drill is enough.
And unfortunately, this is the crux of the matter ... The tolerance limit is obviously seen very loosely by Bosch. It may still be sufficient for wood (school grade D), but it's not acceptable for metal.
It starts with the drill chuck, which is a joke, because expensive drill bits fall on the drill table if you are not careful. The lock (the red ring) is "unpredictable!!!) The play of the quill has already been sufficiently criticized.

They mention the weird wheel on that thing.
I do rmember actually trying that in a local shop, and I much prefer any 1 to 3 lever thingies on machines I tried to the indeed awkward handling that wheel provides

That guy is either talking through his hat or paid by competition.
First, he/she apparently expects a Ferrari 458, when the budget is for a +15 years old VW Golf/Rabbit. I'm already slapping my thighs (remember, I own a PBD 40).
Let's take the complaints one by one:
1: The column is a round, ground, polished steel tube. I see absolutely no deflection when tightening the head clamp.
2: the handwheel needs getting used to. I agree there, but after working with the machine a few times it's no longer an issue.
3: Not true. There is a bit of play if the head is not clamped, but this is true for every round-column drill.
4: This is true, and also true for every round-column machine on the market. But the play is not as large as he/she claims. And the laser helps here. Additionally, needing to move the head during a drilling operations is bad setup, and even worse: bad workmanship.
5: Drill chucks are never precise. If someone believes that, I have an Eiffel Tower for sale.
6: So what? The Laser is for rough alignment, nothing else. Ignore that and imagine you don't have a Laser. Most drills don't.
7: No comment. That's too subjective and emotional to me.

The last paragraph is the final joke. "Expensive drill bits fall on the table...". This person does not know how to mount a drill in a chuck? And should the drill fall, it will not land on the table (there's a hole there), further, the table is aluminium and can not damage a drill.
Laughable.
And apparently written in really ill will.

I generally trust the Bosch brand,  I can't immediately recall ever being disappointed with the quality of anything I bought from that company.  A bit like 3M.  Not the cheapest, but you do get better quality for your money, in my experience.  So I would tend to agree with you that the badly thought out review sounds like the work of an idiot, even though I have never used the product in question.

[Benta]

@BrokenYugo:
I'm with you and will plead for heavy iron every time.
But that wasn't the use case for the OP.
If that changes, I have other suggestions. The problem is only that one might succumb to "heavy iron machine fever".

[TinkeringSteve]

Thanks!
Hah, I didn't notice the bit about his drills falling out of the chuck... that seems weird indeed.

But I have seen a lot of hate for the "Bosch Green" type stuff in general, esp. in woodworker forums. Perhaps that's from heavy duty use people.

[Benta]

But I have seen a lot of hate for the "Bosch Green" type stuff in general, esp. in woodworker forums. Perhaps that's from heavy duty use people.

Well, Bosch positions it's "green" tools for hobbyists, and the "blue" for professionals. This mainly applies to hand tools.
There's no chance in h*ll that a professional would ever use a PDB 40; thus "green". This goes for the rest of the OptiDrill etc. machines as well.
You're in the Hobbyist zone. Live with it.

[BrokenYugo]

@BrokenYugo:
I'm with you and will plead for heavy iron every time.
But that wasn't the use case for the OP.
If that changes, I have other suggestions. The problem is only that one might succumb to "heavy iron machine fever".

Old iron disease is always a risk, and the way I figure it putting someone in front of a machine that carries any risk of being less than ideal will make them lust after the old iron more. You always want to overspec this sort of stuff, running machine tools near/beyond the limit isn't fun, if they say they don't want to punch big deep holes in steel, a machine that can do so in a pinch is probably about right.

I should also mention that I personally consider anything that won't go below 200 RPM or so a wood oriented machine, you can get away with over speeding drill tooling to some extent, especially HSS, but it is a lot more fun not to. That's probably the biggest complaint I have about my personal drill press, a heavy (~70kg assembled) WW2 era Atlas-Craftsman (consumer grade back in the day) bench model that I really lucked my way into, if it weren't currently in storage I'd probably build some sort of reduction for it.

[JohanH]

Many seem to agree that changing the chuck on the Bosch PBD40 is an improvement worth doing. The original chuck is reportedly designed for an impact hand drill, that's the reason for the weird lock mechanism.

How to change the chuck. He also measures runout of old vs new chuck and you can see for yourself:


Some people even go to the extent of changing bearings on the PBD40 to better quality bearings with less play.

Here is one that replaced a bearing. There are subtitles:

[david77]

I have a couple of those chinese Baumarkt grade drill presses. The first on I bought when I was a teenager from a brand called Interkrenn. It was a good start and even though the machine cost under 100DM back then and it has seen a lot of abuse it's still working over 20 years later. It's biggest drawbacks were the weak motor and it was too small. It was reasonably lightweight so it can be moved easily. It's basically the same as the smallest drill presses you'll find in any Baumarkt.

I've upgraded to a big machine later. This one is a Güde brand and much bigger, can not be moved by one person easily.

I've used that Bosch drill press at a friends workshop and I have to say I do not like it. Personal preferrence, it feels a bit plasticky.

For hobby use I think these chinese machines are absolutely fine. Changing the speed is not something you are likely to do often when drilling in plastics or aluminium. I've never found it much of a hassle. Maybe you'll want to upgrade to a good quality chuck.

If I was to buy a new drill press these days I'd steer clear of the stuff they sell in shops. I'd go for Optimum or Bernardo. These are basically the same machines but built to higher specs than Güde & Co. I've got a Bernardo table saw that I really like and a nice Optimum bench grinder.

The small Proxxon drill press is nice but not suitable for much more than PCB drilling. Maybe a few small 3-6mm holes at a pinch. I've got one of those for my PCB manufacturing station.

You'll want to invest in a good set of drills. I'd recommend HSS-G grade drills from a good brand, do not buy Baumarkt rubbish!

Good place to look for chuck & drills (and all other tools really):
https://www.hoffmann-group.com/DE/de/hom/?gclid=EAIaIQobChMIvOf6uMrM9QIVCeN3Ch08jQ-OEAAYASAAEgKiNfD_BwE

[TinkeringSteve]

For brass you need a separate set, where the cutting edges are ground to zero degrees.

What are they called?

[jpanhalt]

In our shop, they were called "dubbed off."  I have also seen them listed as specifically for brass.  The problem with a sharp bit in brass (and plastic) is that they tend to dig in.  The flat angle gives more of a scraping action.

Rather than buy a special bit for more money, just get a regular bit and grind the edge off.

[TinkeringSteve]

I wonder how a thing like this with a "gallow" for allowing wider e.g. pieces of wood to be drilled into, is really feasible in that price range.
I imagine having a "lever" there might invite bending / inaccuracy if the construction is ligher, eh?
https://www.bernardo-maschinen.com/rbm-780-t-bernardo-radialbohrmaschine-230-volt.html

[jpanhalt]

Such radial drills have been around a long time.  I can't remember ever needing one; although, they do have a use. 

When I have needed a vertical hole (better than by eye) in a piece larger than my drill press can accommodate, I just make a guide/jig out of hardwood.  Hold that against the surface and drill.  Did that for a wood garage door segment I needed to rebuild with doweled joints. 

That table looks a lot like many others, and might present a problem for clamping.  The apparent T-slots in your original choices are similar to a milling table.  They make setups easy.

[TinkeringSteve]

Such radial drills have been around a long time.  I can't remember ever needing one; although, they do have a use. 

When I have needed a vertical hole (better than by eye) in a piece larger than my drill press can accommodate, I just make a guide/jig out of hardwood.  Hold that against the surface and drill.  Did that for a wood garage door segment I needed to rebuild with doweled joints. 

That table looks a lot like many others, and might present a problem for clamping.  The apparent T-slots in your original choices are similar to a milling table.  They make setups easy.

Ah, right! Kinda useless of you can't keep the thing drilling into stable enough to properly drill into it, eh?
Clamping you say. Just using regular ones like this thing here, or are there especially apt ones for such tables? https://www.backwinkel.de/out/pictures/master/product/1/78175_a_corvus.png

I also have a small-ish, flat, vice lying around somewhere which I think is made for mounting on such plates, relatively heavy. I guess that'd be more the thing for metal parts
What kind of wood to use as a sacrificial surface, to prevent "exit holes" getting ugly? I so far never had reakky good results using some type of rather soft-ish like pine wood, that I felt was cheap anough so sacrifice But maybe it was also due to wrong RPM with my hand drill...

So i guess these are in my focus now:
https://www.bernardo-maschinen.com/tb-16-t-bernardo-tischbohrmaschine-230-v.html
https://www.bernardo-maschinen.com/tb-20-t-bernardo-tischbohrmaschine-230-v.html

The 2nd one was posted above, the 1st one not - it's a bit smaller and ~100 € cheaper. RPM range is somewhat worse in the cheaper one (but still better than the Optimum similarly priced one).
I guess I need a good night's sleep to get some sort of divine inspiration to decide whether 100€ more are worth being able to drill 25mm into plastic After all, I do sometimes use MIDI (DIN5) jacks and stuff, that's already 16mm. A hole through a piece of plastic to shove through 25mm PVC gray cable conduit pipe could sometimes be useful )

[Benta]

For brass you need a separate set, where the cutting edges are ground to zero degrees.

What are they called?

Well, you can call them "brass drills" if you like. They can be bought ready-made, but certainly not at HF.

Most hobbyists just buy normal HSS spiral drills and grind the cutting edges to zero degrees. BTW, such drills are also essential for drilling cast iron.
Brass really "grabs" the drill, but cast iron is much worse.

[jpanhalt]

If you look at clamping methods for mills you will see all sort of examples.  Here is one:


It's a lot easier working from the top with dial indicators to get accurate positioning rather than trying to use a C-clamp against an irregular surface on the bottom of the table.  Is that always needed?  No, I hand hold most stuff on my drill press -- almost never on my mill.  For example, if you are making a counterbored hole, it is just easier.  Of course, I am just guessing from the pictures that the earlier choices have T-slots.   If they are just parallel slots rather than radial slots, then that is not much of an advantage if any.  They may also be a ridiculous dimension, so getting good clamps to fit could be a problem.

[Benta]

This is drifting into a different space now.
There an immense difference between a vertical mill with coordinate table, precision spindle, collet holders for milling tools etc. (I ALSO have one of those) and a drill press.
Try to define your ambition (and budget) level right. A vertical mill will cost 5...X times a drill press. And it takes much longer to set up for just drilling a hole. And the tools bits are really expensive (and so are the accessories).

It's already been said several times: spiral drills flex, so punch marking is the #1 starting point. NOT runout.

[Benta]

@jpanhalt:
dial indicators in a drill press? Are you serious?

[jpanhalt]

@Benta
Come on, I only used the mill as an example of clamping from the top.  I couldn't find an example that was set up on a drill press.  No way is a drill press ever going to be a mill -- particularly those aluminum ones.  Nevertheless, I wish my drill press (JET, made in Japan, circa 1970's) had T-slots.  "T-slots" on the table of a drill press would be a plus to me.  Don't try to imply any other intent on my part.  It seemed clear to me that the TS didn't quite understand how they are used based on the subsequent clamps he showed.  So, I showed an example.

I wanted to add a comment about the different Bosch lines that you mentioned earlier.  I find that disappointing.  Black and Decker was a respectable American tool through the 1960's.  Then in the early 1970's (it seems), it began marketing a consumer grade.  B&D's home office was in Towson, MD.  I went to their showroom and was very disappointed.  As I recall, they had green plastic bodies (not to be confused with being "green") instead of cast aluminum.  The expressed intent was to compete with Asian imports.  I only bought one B&D tool after that -- an industrial abrasive 14" cutoff saw.  It seemed to me that move to expand its offerings cheapened everything.  I switched to Milwaukee, until it went poor quality.  Then I switched to Bosch.  I have been satisfied so far, and appreciate the clue about its "green" line.  I hope that does not trickle down/up/contaminate everything else it makes.