Author Topic: Boring topic - drilling RPM range etc - affordable bench drill, German market  (Read 5001 times)

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Offline TinkeringSteve

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Howdy!

I'm looking for a bench drill for hobby use, a couple weekends of use a year, not a lot of space.
Hence the price/pain point is easily reached ;)
It must operate at 230V single-phase.
Weighing more than I can carry (without inducing back injury), alone, is an excluding criterion - I need to be able to move this around if needed.

I don't need to drill 20mm diameter, 100mm deep, into a stainless steel block.
I don't have much experience with this, was so far only using a hand drill for everything (and not happy with accuracy, esp. angles, of course ;)),
and am looking for a seizable improvement over those kinda results.

(I have seen stand-alone kinda guides with lever, for mounting an existing drill, but my drills don't fit such things and buying this and a new, not too crappy drill, well, might as well...)

Drilling small-ish things mostly, in wood and plastic, perhaps some aluminium and brass - and more rarely, steel of a few mm, if ever.
Things you might do when building musical instruments (e.g. synthesizers in 1970's style, guitar stuff), DIY lab gear, one or the other smaller radio antenna. Probably not anything or much mechanical stuff that moves.
I'm not going to build combustion engines, not even small ones ;)

I've found this supposedly optimal RPM table for different materials at different drill diameters:
(It's Wood, Steel, Stainless steel, Aluminum, Brass, Plastics)
https://www.ellmitron.com/media/4598/file/static/doc/drehzahltabelle-bohren_3366.pdf

I'll get back to that.

I have read about typical German eqivalent "home depot" (Baumarkt) gear as pretty crappy esp. with bad radial runout.
So I found some people who have been reasonably happy with products like the following, supposedly, while made in China, designed in Europe and with decent quality control.
The first one has a guaranteed runout of < 0.03 mm, the other one only claims a reasonably good one, without saying a number - not a good sign I guess.
The things is that the second one has a wider RPM range.
https://www.stuermer-machines.com/brands/optimum/category/product/optimum-drilling-machines/optidrill-dq-18-3191042/
https://www.bernardo-maschinen.com/tb-20-t-bernardo-tischbohrmaschine-230-v.html

What caught my eye was, though, that the 2nd one has a wider RPM range: 180 - 2770 vs. only 600 – 2400 for the 1st one.
Even that already does not cover a lot of materials and diameters from the table linked above.
Esp. plastic with its low RPM requirement (due to heat?)

So I now wonder, how important is using optimal RPM / how much can you deviate without getting horrible results?
The 2nd machine is ~ 100€ more expensive than the other, but the only thing, for met, it seems to have over the 1st is wider RPM range, while the 1st one has a guaranteed runout.
(I also saw an OptiDrill with 0.02 runout, 100€ more, similar small RPM range)

What's most important?

I have heard claims that drills of that kind are of a light construction that might make them bend and reduce accuracy.
The question is - in what scenario? Perhaps not if I drill through a piece of pine or block of plastic?
I don't care about stainless steel.

Please try to not use your own profesisonal or "advanced hobbyist" demands on such a machine as a measuring stick vs. my humble actual needs (probably).
An oft found attitude like "anything below 1000 EUR, used, is crap", is probably not helpful (unless absolutely accurate - but seeing others actually do stuff with those things, I doubt it).
I'd prefer a sober, up to date (to current market) gauging of "what can I do with how much money, and is that enough for what *I* need".
I'd be surprised if I couldn't get a vast improvement over my free-hand drilling on a budget as roughly outlined by the examples given.

But let's hear it ;)
 

Online jpanhalt

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Those are probably generic made-in-China goods.
From review of the second offering:
Quote
Für den recht hohen Preis hätte ich mehr als Chinaware erwartet.


Initially (1974), I thought speed range might be the most important.  Later, I realized it is not.  It is very easy now to swap that motor for a 3-phase or DC and use a speed controller (assuming the current motor doesn't meet that need).  What is important to me is runout of the spindle and smooth operation, how well does the spindle move,  can you lock the spindle in position, bearings, quality of construction, clamping options, and chuck precision are important.   Both options appear to have table T-slots for clamping.  That is good.
 

Online Benta

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I own and use the Bosch PBD 40 and am very satisfied with it.
Don't know if it's within your budget, though. EDIT: followed your links.
https://www.bosch-diy.com/de/de/p/pbd-40-0603b07000-v100026579
« Last Edit: January 23, 2022, 05:19:49 pm by Benta »
 

Online 2N3055

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Optimum are actually quite decent machines.
But, changing speed by changing belts is a pin in the ass.
OTOH, I agree with Benta, take a look at Bosch PBD 40.

It is not as sturdy ad Optimum you shown, it has aluminum frame. And it is a bit smaller.
Not such a large capacity as that Optimum. But you said you don't need that.
But, it has electronic RPM control, laser pointer etc.
It is very handy, uses little space, and very quick to setup and use. 
They are available at many shops (especially in Germany I would guess), just go to some shop and see it in person.

Optimum would make sense if you wanted more capacity and would like to work with metal more seriously.
 

Online Benta

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Concerning drill speed/feed: don't sweat it.
It's not critical in any way for the materials with which you're working. You'll very quickly get a feel for it.
For steel, especially stainless it's a different story.

Your concern about runout: if you intend using normal spiral drills, it's of no consequence at all. Drill flex will be much larger.
Proper punch-marking to give the drill a precise starting point is much more important. Plus drilling in stages.
As an example for a 10 mm hole: punch -> 2 mm -> 6 mm -> 10mm

Normal HSS spiral drills are fine for wood, plastics and aluminium .
For brass you need a separate set, where the cutting edges are ground to zero degrees.

Cheers.
 
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Offline Dubbie

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Benta is right. I have a very well equipped home shop and can drill/bore very accurate holes in any material if I need to. Yet I still have a little $150 cheap bench top drill press that gets a LOT of use. It’s belt driven but I pretty much never change the speed on it. I would start with a cheap unit and only upgrade if you feel it is insufficient for your needs. You may never feel that!
 

Offline Jester

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My perspective may be a bit different than yours. I’m a complete tool nut.

In my experience every time I purchase even a cheap tool that performs a particular task I end up wondering how I did without it. I have a couple of cheap (big box made in China) bench drill presses one in the garage and one at the cottage. I made do with them for 20+ years and they are a huge improvement over a hand drill in many cases. That being said too often the size limitation precluded using it.

I ended up getting a used made in Canada Buffalo brand (full size) 40+ year old, that had a good reputation on the hobby machinist forums. This same brand were also offered in a bench version. It has turned out to be great and the quality is far superior to either of the big box ones. I do drill steel and sometimes holes up to about 25mm so adequate power and rigidity help. I did a couple of upgrades a used eBay 3 phase motor that now runs via a used EBay VFD provides speed control and more torque. IMO speed is actually pretty important for large holes, with the correct speed the bit will simply power through the material effortlessly where it would be a hack job at high speed.  I also added electric table height.

So in short my suggestion would be find a good old used bench model. Perhaps you can mount it on a narrow cart so you can roll it around easily?

One other thing consider getting a vise and an easy way to hold it down, I use the modified bicycle seat post  quick release levers.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2022, 01:06:23 pm by Jester »
 

Offline bill_c

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If you mostly drill large holes or plastic that melts easy, you may want lower RPM range, only drawback is that it may take longer to drill smaller holes. Run out may not be super important since you have been drilling by hand in the past.  Setup and methods may have more affect on results.  Get a good light, scribe, center drill, and center punch.  For metals and most plastics, the drill bit will find the center mark, just watch the way the bit deflects (while turning) and move the part so bit remains straight when touching center mark.  For wood, you will need a template (usually steel) to hold the bit on location since the hard and soft parts of wood grain will push the drill bit around even if center marked. The other option for wood is to use stub length drill bits which don't bent as much, and proper clamping to keep the wood in place. 
 

Online Benta

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If you mostly drill large holes or plastic that melts easy, you may want lower RPM range, only drawback is that it may take longer to drill smaller holes. Run out may not be super important since you have been drilling by hand in the past.  Setup and methods may have more affect on results.  Get a good light, scribe, center drill, and center punch.  For metals and most plastics, the drill bit will find the center mark, just watch the way the bit deflects (while turning) and move the part so bit remains straight when touching center mark.  For wood, you will need a template (usually steel) to hold the bit on location since the hard and soft parts of wood grain will push the drill bit around even if center marked. The other option for wood is to use stub length drill bits which don't bent as much, and proper clamping to keep the wood in place.

This is good advice and how I've been doing it for 50 years. The tip about using a template for wood is an important one.
Otherwise the punch mark rules.
« Last Edit: January 23, 2022, 06:33:12 pm by Benta »
 

Online Benta

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I ended up getting a used made in Canada Buffalo brand (full size) 40+ year old, that had a good reputation on the hobby machinist forums. This same brand we’re also offered in a bench version. It has turned out to be great and the quality is far superior to either of the big box ones.

This ignores the fact, that there is absolutely no market for hobbyist-sized machines. All the Buffalos, Deckels, Schaublins etc. are all in the hobby workshops of people with money. They do not appear on the market. And if they do, prices are exorbitant.
The machines are great, yes. But you can't buy them anywhere.

 

Offline Jester

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I ended up getting a used made in Canada Buffalo brand (full size) 40+ year old, that had a good reputation on the hobby machinist forums. This same brand were also offered in a bench version. It has turned out to be great and the quality is far superior to either of the big box ones.

This ignores the fact, that there is absolutely no market for hobbyist-sized machines. All the Buffalos, Deckels, Schaublins etc. are all in the hobby workshops of people with money. They do not appear on the market. And if they do, prices are exorbitant.
The machines are great, yes. But you can't buy them anywhere.

Interesting I guess to some extent the same is happening here, I had to look for a while and drive 200km to get mine for a good price $200. I did find a couple that were close but they were aware of what they had and were holding out for 10x the original price.
« Last Edit: January 23, 2022, 06:50:24 pm by Jester »
 

Offline JohanH

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Good advice in this thread. I also have the Bosch PDB40 for hobby use and I'm very happy with it. I use it mostly for aluminium and  steel sometimes. The most convenient feature with this drill is the variable speed and that it is small and doesn't take a lot of space. The work light is nice, but I never use the laser, it isn't precise enough. Another nice feature is the electronic zeroing function, so that you can drill holes to a precise depth. I agree it isn't meant to be used for serious metal work, due to the aluminium frame. But for hobby use it is perfect.

I didn't like the original chuck because of the cumbersome lock function, so I changed it to a Röhm Supra S 13 871050 Mount 1/2" -20. https://eshop247.roehm.biz/DE-en/quick-action-drill-chuck-supra-s-13s-mount-12-20-light-version-14433.html?tab=product-variants-tab
You can find it cheaper on Amazon: https://www.amazon.de/-/en/871050-Supra-Keyless-Chuck/dp/B000ZEH8N8/ref=sr_1_1
This chuck is more stable, more precise and it is easier to change drills (according to someone else that also fitted on the PDB40 it causes less wobble). Due to precision it grips smaller drills better (down to 1 mm) and still goes up to 13mm.

Compared to big floor drills I've used in the past with belt drive and hard to change rpm, it is like comparing horse and sleigh to a modern car (at least from usability and convenience).

Drilling is something that you have to practice to get the feel for. Good advice to punch and drill in steps. Get a couple of "step drills" for drilling larger holes than 10mm. Use lubrication when drilling in steel. WD40 or CRC is fine (almost any lubrication helps). Watch drill temp, do not push too hard. If the drill gets too hot (there will be smoke and smell, so you will know it), it will not stay sharp any more and is essentially broken.

Keep in mind that a drill press isn't a CNC, so you should never cause any side pressure on the drill bit or chuck. The bearings aren't built for it and will be damaged in the long run.

« Last Edit: January 23, 2022, 07:35:31 pm by jukk »
 

Offline NorthGuy

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I have a small drill press which I bought for around $100 very long time ago. I bought it to drill holes in PCBs, but I use it for everything - I drill wood, aluminum, copper, some steel. The speed can be adjusted between 620 and 3100 rpm by changing the belt, but I always keep it at 1100 rpm and never felt a need to change the speed.

The runout is 0.1mm if measured with a short carbide drill bit. It is worse with regular drill bits, especially if you use a long drill bit such as 1/2 (12 mm). But I've never felt the runout was a problem. I don't think you can get good runout with a drill chuck anyway.

It is 1/3 HP, so it is lacking power sometimes, but on a bright side this might have saved me few fingers over the years.

The only regret is the size - the tallest I can drill is less than 8" (200 mm), the table is too small and doesn't work well when you put on something heavy, doesn't even have enough space for a decent drill vise.

If I ever buy a new one, it'll be looking for something big, sturdy, and heavy.
 

Online jpanhalt

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I agree that a drill chuck is not the best for runout, but good ones are much better.  I have a couple of sizes and two keyless versions.  One is a real Albrecht Serios 801 and the other is a knock off from China.  The Albrecht was purchased before 1990, so I just checked its current pri$e.  Egads >$400.  Now, I need to put it in my will.  In any event, my ordinary decent quality  3/8" keyed chuck handles carbide drills with 1/8" shanks down to the smallest sizes I have tried to use  (#72?).  Any breakage I have had was due to something I did.

On Topic:  In thinking about what the TS wants, I thought a Central Machinery micro-drill/mill #47158 would work.  They can be realigned and fitted to work reasonably, except the fine feed depth gauge is garbage.  I use a dial indicator when depth is an issue.  I paid about $200 or less in 2003, but unfortunately they are no longer offered.  Its replacement is $600.  They might be on eBay.de.  I have attached a picture for reference.  I also noted some cheaper versions that had only a screw feed for drilling.  I would not want that ever, except when milling.

« Last Edit: January 23, 2022, 09:06:57 pm by jpanhalt »
 

Offline SilverSolder

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I agree that a drill chuck is not the best for runout, but good ones are much better.  I have a couple of sizes and two keyless versions.  One is a real Albrecht Serios 801 and the other is a knock off from China.  The Albrecht was purchased before 1990, so I just checked its current pri$e.  Egads >$400.  Now, I need to put it in my will.  In any event, my ordinary decent quality  3/8" keyed chuck handles carbide drills with 1/8" shanks down to the smallest sizes I have tried to use  (#72?).  Any breakage I have had was due to something I did.

On Topic:  In thinking about what the TS wants, I thought a Central Machinery micro-drill/mill #47158 would work.  They can be realigned and fitted to work reasonably, except the fine feed depth gauge is garbage.  I use a dial indicator when depth is an issue.  I paid about $200 or less in 2003, but unfortunately they are no longer offered.  Its replacement is $600.  They might be on eBay.de.  I have attached a picture for reference.  I also noted some cheaper versions that had only a screw feed for drilling.  I would not want that ever, except when milling.


I have one of those, bought around the same time.   It is an amazingly versatile little guy to have around.  I've even used it to resurface heat sinks, using a fly cutter...

There's no inflation, is what we keep having to tell ourselves as prices keep doubling everywhere we look...

 

Online Benta

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On Topic:  In thinking about what the TS wants, I thought a Central Machinery micro-drill/mill #47158 would work.  They can be realigned and fitted to work reasonably, except the fine feed depth gauge is garbage.

Somehow you seem to have missed the word German in the HEADLINE.   |O
 

Online jpanhalt

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Did you miss my reference to "ebay.de" ;)
They might be on eBay.de.

I don't know whether you have Harbor Freight, maybe not, but Chinese manufacturers are so promiscuous, I figured something similar or identical may have been sold in Germany.
« Last Edit: January 23, 2022, 09:36:40 pm by jpanhalt »
 

Online Benta

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I think you need to take a holiday outside the US to learn what the world looks like.
Wal-Mart tried to establish itself in the EU and failed miserably. And Harbor Freight would be the total joke here.

« Last Edit: January 23, 2022, 09:54:08 pm by Benta »
 

Online jpanhalt

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I have been to the what is the modern EU many times, mostly before the EU.   Kiel, Munich, and especially the technical museum there.  Loved it. It was one of the most impressive museums I have seen and had an actual V2 rocket.*  I can still imagine the workmanship on the dirigible ribs that were made, the submarine exhibits, and most disturbing, all of the ship models that had been sunk.  Nevertheless, I doubt the Chinese manufacturers made the "micro-mill/drill" only for the US.

What that "micro mill/drill" provides is a decent drill press with a stable spindle with an MT2 female socket. As or milling, it it nowhere near a Bridgeport or similar, but with care and a lot of time, one can still get reasonable accuracy.

* I maybe a little weird, but when I visited a foreign country during my working years, I visited the museums and libraries well before the usual destinations.  Imagine the thrill of an 2nd gen. American holding the original works of Amerigo Vespucci in his hands (Saville, my host had a little pull). :)
 

Online nctnico

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For small sized projects Proxon has some nice options. I have a Proxxon Micromot (which is a hand held tool) and drill-stand which I use for drilling PCBs and other small things (holes up to 3mm). The one I have has lasted over 30 years so far.
Besides that Proxxon also has regular drill presses. Most of their stuff is aimed at model making / precission wood working.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline TinkeringSteve

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Wow, thanks guys, that's some material to digest!

"for wood drilling, use a template" - how would that look like?

As for the "Bosch PDB40", I read some bad things about it so I stopped considereing it. When I have more time maybe I find it again and post it here, maybe it's not as bad. Although if there is high production tolerance and the people who are happy with it were lucky... ;) (but I don't remember right now what it was)

Proxxon... they seem to be available nowhere currently.

Changing belts for speeds definitely does not sound like a joy to use, but if the overall machine is better, ... (let's see if I can find the Bosch complaints again later..)


 

Online 2N3055

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Wow, thanks guys, that's some material to digest!

"for wood drilling, use a template" - how would that look like?

As for the "Bosch PDB40", I read some bad things about it so I stopped considereing it. When I have more time maybe I find it again and post it here, maybe it's not as bad. Although if there is high production tolerance and the people who are happy with it were lucky... ;) (but I don't remember right now what it was)

Proxxon... they seem to be available nowhere currently.

Changing belts for speeds definitely does not sound like a joy to use, but if the overall machine is better, ... (let's see if I can find the Bosch complaints again later..)

Then take a look at Optimum OPTIdrill DQ 20V or OPTIdrill DQ 14...

https://www.stuermer-machines.com/brands/optimum/category/product/optimum-drilling-machines/optidrill-dq-14-3191040/
https://www.stuermer-machines.com/brands/optimum/category/product/optimum-drilling-machines/optidrill-dq-20v-3191080/

They have specified runout less than 0.03 mm... Those are solid machines.
 

Offline TimFox

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Except for a small hobby-quality drill press I use for PCBs, every drill press I have ever used required changing the pulleys (with the same belt) to change speeds.
It is not difficult.
The trick is to shift the belt first on the shaft where you go from larger diameter to smaller, then encourage the belt onto the matching pulley on the other shaft as you rotate manually.
(Be absolutely positive to kill power, and be careful about pinching your fingers.)
 
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Offline SilverSolder

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I think you need to take a holiday outside the US to learn what the world looks like.
Wal-Mart tried to establish itself in the EU and failed miserably. And Harbor Freight would be the total joke here.

Why would HF be a total joke?  - there is definitely a niche for tools that won't be used many times, so don't have to be superbly made (and therefore modestly priced!)

In other news, I notice that Aldi seems to be doing well in the US.  If it works for food, why not tools?  :D
 

Online Benta

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Why would HF be a total joke?  - there is definitely a niche for tools that won't be used many times, so don't have to be superbly made (and therefore modestly priced!)

In other news, I notice that Aldi seems to be doing well in the US.  If it works for food, why not tools?  :D

HF is the lowest level of cheap Chinese tools and would be torn to pieces by the EU trade press.

I used to subscribe to a couple of US trade magazines. All reviews were so gushingly positive  that they were completely useless. Even the worst POS was praised in the highest tones.
I stopped the subscriptions a quickly as I could.
In the EU, the trade press take their readers seriously instead of just kowtowing to the advertisers.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2022, 05:24:26 pm by Benta »
 


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