Author Topic: Which Screws Won't Cause Bleed through on Wood Filler For Bookcase  (Read 9764 times)

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Offline CatalinaWOW

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Re: Which Screws Are Safe For Building a Bookcase
« Reply #50 on: September 14, 2023, 12:16:46 am »

Just to elaborate, the three things I'm confirming: stainless steel screws for the bookcase sides are my best choice, 5/16" stainless steel threaded rod (one on each side) will be an adequate diameter to hold (over estimating) 1200lbs total weight including wood (although I may actually go with 3/8" threaded rod or possibly 7/16"), and is 12" from each side the best deflection point to drill holes for the threaded rode?

You are both over and underthinking this.  But to your questions.

 Stainless steel screws are fine, though I think you would have not problems with several of the other types mentioned on this thread.  There are many grades of stainless steel, but the lowest strength stainless steel threaded rod carried by McMaster Carr has a yield strength of 70,000 psi.  Assuming UNC (coarse thread 5/16) which will have lower cross section area than a UNF rod that strength computes to 3500 lbs per rod.  More than enough.  What you buy at the local home center is unlikely to be meaningfully worse relative to your loads.  You can deal with the galling with lube or appropriate nuts (galling is also less likely when the nuts are not loaded.)  Do be sure to spread the load with washers, preferably fender washers.  I would be more worried about nuts pulling through wood than about the rods failing.   I wouldn't worry too much about the ideal placement of the rods.  You are fixing the ends with the dado joints creating something that is something sort of like a fixed joint, and distribution of the loads left and right and between shelves will depend on the exact way you adjust the supporting nuts, and will be further adjusted by how the wood moves with temperature and humidity.  If you like the looks of the spacing you have chosen it will work well enough and there isn't any analysis that won't be made wrong by the details of your installation. 

Attaching the shelves to the wall is a good idea (and even would be required by building codes in some locations), but further complicates the load distribution.  Ideally the attachment would allow free motion in the vertical direction and none in the other two.  Hard to do in practice so you will have to live with what you can make, and it will share the loads further complicating the analysis.  The simplest way to make the attachment is with L-brackets at the rear of one or more of the shelves.  You will have to decide if that meets your style needs or if you have to do something more elaborate.
« Last Edit: September 14, 2023, 12:19:36 am by CatalinaWOW »
 

Offline bostonmanTopic starter

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Re: Which Screws Are Safe For Building a Bookcase
« Reply #51 on: September 14, 2023, 02:00:17 am »
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UNF rod that strength computes to 3500 lbs per rod

Out of curiosity, how did you get 3500lbs? I took the area of the 5/16" rod and multiplied that by 70,000. From my understanding, this number is the "maximum" where the rod will stretch/deform and not return; thus making it more likely to snap.

When I discussed this with the ME (Mechanical Engineer), he used a "safety" factor (which, as an EE understand, and practice it myself), but I don't remember the safety number. Even if the safety factor is five, and using 3500lbs that you got (which is lower than the 5369 I got), that's 700lbs per rod giving me 1400lbs total support weight.

I've also planned to use fender washers, actually, a fender washer followed by a regular 5/16" washer (or 3/8" if I go with a larger threaded rod).

I also considered using coupling nuts under each shelf so I have more threads grabbing, but this is really deviating from the original topic/question.  My main concern began with the screws holding the shelves not bleeding through the wood fill on the outside sides of the bookcase.
 

Online T3sl4co1l

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Re: Which Screws Are Safe For Building a Bookcase
« Reply #52 on: September 14, 2023, 02:46:12 am »
Well, take yield not ultimate strength -- ultimate means it's stretched and bent way out of shape, long before actually failing.  Depending on the elongation of the particular material and condition.  Yield means only elastic deformation below there; though there may be fatigue accumulating at lower stresses, down to the fatigue limit*, which along with peak loading, are adequate rationale for a generous safety factor.

It may even be that the loading rate isn't a problem, and deflection dominates.  Machine tools are such an example; while machining forces can be quite extreme (most obviously, above the shear limit of the material being cut, at the tool tip..), mostly it's needing so much material to keep deflection down -- that is, stiffness up.  Which means the strength of the bulkier parts doesn't matter so much -- gray cast iron is quite weak material in the grand ferrous scheme of things, but it's excellent for machine tools given its modulus**, compared to other materials of comparable cost.

*If it exists, and only in applicable alloys.  The statistics generally go something like, cycle limit inversely proportional to stress, or some other exponent, and this is true in most metals, aluminum, copper, etc.  Certain metals apparently behave differently, with the statistic being perhaps an exponential increase in life as stress decreases.  Understandably, this is hard to test, and in practical terms, I mean, you don't hear about valve springs snapping on a regular basis in car engines, despite decades of life -- billions of cycles; it's hard for anything to be important enough, for long enough, to even worry about cycle lifetimes this long.

**Which come to think of it... aha, it's rather poor, as it happens.  Which makes sense given the structure (flecks of graphite in an iron matrix; it's so weak because it's literally chock full of "paper"-filled voids which have no tensile strength and are 100% edges, i.e., stress raisers all around).  Which means a more solid alloy, like ductile iron (spheroidal graphite grains), or just plain old steel (no free graphite at all), are technically better.  Compare 66-162 GPa elastic modulus for gray iron (varying over ASTM classes 20 to 60), versus closer to 150 GPa for ductile irons, or 186 GPa for AISI 1020 mild steel.  Contrast with 356 cast aluminum at 72 GPa.  Which, gives an interesting perspective on those home-built machine tools: assuming one has the materials to commit to pouring as much aluminum as a commercial machine has cast iron, you can do about as well as they do!  Gray iron still holds value in being cheaper per volume, and the higher density shifts resonant frequencies lower (as adding more capacitance to a system, which then oscillates for fewer cycles as resonant energy dissipates -- impedance decreases ("stiffness" increases!) and damping improves.

Anyway, in a framing/carpentry context, obviously the wood dominates deflection; cellulose by itself is actually a pretty impressive for being a chain of sugars, but, the porous matrix of unmodified wood leaves it a bit springy.  Not like a book case expects much of any dynamic loading, but to the extent it does, the wall-tie strategy can be designed to provide damping as well as constraining degrees of freedom [sway etc.].  Say, a felt pad between shelf/bracket and wall, so it can slide with friction; or heh, if you really want to get into it, you could consider the effect of acoustics on the wall; maybe a rigid or semirigid (damped) mounting would be beneficial (reduce resonances of the wall itself) would be better than a semi-loose bolting, etc.

Clearly-- just stretch goals if even that, highly speculative, just extending the scope of knowledge here, nothing actually serious. :)

Tim
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Offline bostonmanTopic starter

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Re: Which Screws Are Safe For Building a Bookcase
« Reply #53 on: September 14, 2023, 03:39:29 am »
Quote
Well, take yield not ultimate strength -- ultimate means it's stretched and bent way out of shape, long before actually failing.

So your 3500lbs per rod is theoretically accurate meaning I could hang 7000lbs from two rods? Let's for a moment ignore wood and everything, and assume the threaded rod is the only thing in question. If I hung a solid item weighing 7000lbs, the threaded rod would hold it without ever breaking (let's use a few decades as a timeline)?

I'm just trying to wrap my head around just how strong 5/16" threaded rod actually is.
 

Online T3sl4co1l

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Re: Which Screws Are Safe For Building a Bookcase
« Reply #54 on: September 14, 2023, 04:03:34 am »
Over that kind of time scale, you're going to have some kind of dynamical loading, whether it's just someone bumping into it, or earthquakes (as applicable; maybe not so likely if I should take "bostonman" literally, and even hurricane forces might be fairly modest in a low house one might install this in :) ).  Also of course there's tolerances, but supposing everything ideal.  Or excepting transient loads by the same rationale, yep.

Also, steel doesn't creep at room temperature, so, if it's there for some time, it's there for all time, more or less.

Also give or take environmental, like, there are particular stress-corrosion phenomena to look out for, as well as just, eventually it'll rust through.

Let me actually do it... let's see...

UNC threads are 60° triangular, so the root depth is sqrt(3)/2 the pitch.  Major diameter is 5/16", and pitch is 18 TPI, so that works out to 0.216" minor diameter, the minimum circular cross section (approximately; actual failure would have a "tang" to one side of the mostly-circular patch, the tang being where the thread got wrenched off both pieces), or 0.0367 in^2, or for 1020 CRS,
https://www.matweb.com/search/DataSheet.aspx?MatGUID=10b74ebc27344380ab16b1b69f1cffbb
at 50.8 ksi yield or 60.9 ksi ultimate, gives 1.86k or 2.24k lbs, which to be clear is lbf (poundforce).

7/16-14 similarly gives 0.0773 in^2, or 3.93k or 4.71k lbf.

What you actually get in all-thread may vary; I would assume something very typically either hot-rolled or drawn, and then cold-rolled to form threads, which will be somewhere between sort-of case-hardened from the rolling process, to full-hard CRS.

Threads on bolts are almost exclusively rolled -- it's cheaper that way, and better besides; cut threads are usually specified as such, and usually on specialty parts that aren't worth setting up in a rolling machine.  I'm not actually sure about all-thread, offhand.

Worst case would be cut thread in hot-rolled: no work hardening, annealed condition, plus some stress raisers from the sharp cutter marks (and perhaps a microscopically rough/fractured surface, depending on how clean the cut was).

1020 HRS is 29.7 ksi yield, so about half the above figures, or 1.09k (5/16") or 2.3k (7/16") lbf.  Ultimate is similar.

I'm not sure where 7k came from, unless that was a(n even more?) naive calculation of solid rod rather than all-thread.

Tim
« Last Edit: September 14, 2023, 04:05:30 am by T3sl4co1l »
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Offline CatalinaWOW

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Re: Which Screws Are Safe For Building a Bookcase
« Reply #55 on: September 14, 2023, 04:09:57 am »
Quote
UNF rod that strength computes to 3500 lbs per rod

Out of curiosity, how did you get 3500lbs? I took the area of the 5/16" rod and multiplied that by 70,000. From my understanding, this number is the "maximum" where the rod will stretch/deform and not return; thus making it more likely to snap.

When I discussed this with the ME (Mechanical Engineer), he used a "safety" factor (which, as an EE understand, and practice it myself), but I don't remember the safety number. Even if the safety factor is five, and using 3500lbs that you got (which is lower than the 5369 I got), that's 700lbs per rod giving me 1400lbs total support weight.

I've also planned to use fender washers, actually, a fender washer followed by a regular 5/16" washer (or 3/8" if I go with a larger threaded rod).

I also considered using coupling nuts under each shelf so I have more threads grabbing, but this is really deviating from the original topic/question.  My main concern began with the screws holding the shelves not bleeding through the wood fill on the outside sides of the bookcase.

You must use the area of the rod at the bottom of the threads.  Which isn't 5/16ths.  I used the minimum value specified in the UNC definition for a course thread of 0.252 inch (Google is my friend, I EE by training just worked my way into mechanical stuff.)  It is somewhat larger in UNF (fine thread).

All Tim's comments are valid, but the bottom line is that there is quite a bit of margin.  McM-Carr doesn't say whether the number they give is tensile or yield, but it is extremely likely that the yield strength is below 50,000.  The correct safety factor is subject to a wide range of opinions.  Various industries and applications use values ranging up to four.  But I will never forget, early in my career visiting a potential vendor to make parts for a product I was working on.  One of their jobs was chemical milling on major structural components for the Space Shuttle.  They commented that where the loads on the structure were well understood they were using a 10% safety factor, but when they were less well understood that went up to 20%.

Numbers are all well and good, but sometimes it takes some hands on experience to really trust the calculations.  It isn't easy to set up a several thousand pound tensile test for your rods, but you can convince yourself that there is a lot of strength there by trying to pull a #4 or #6 screw in two. 
 

Online T3sl4co1l

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Re: Which Screws Are Safe For Building a Bookcase
« Reply #56 on: September 14, 2023, 04:49:27 am »
But I will never forget, early in my career visiting a potential vendor to make parts for a product I was working on.  One of their jobs was chemical milling on major structural components for the Space Shuttle.  They commented that where the loads on the structure were well understood they were using a 10% safety factor, but when they were less well understood that went up to 20%.

Yeah, aerospace can get insanely tight on margins.  When full operating history of the member's loading is known -- whether by direct measurement or modeling -- you can pull margins very close indeed.

And the Space Shuttles were never intended to fly, all that many times -- I don't know what they used, obviously they did make repeat trips, but I doubt they expected more than a thousand say, which means fatigue limits can be quite loose.  Not so much for rapidly rotating or vibrating equipment, like the rocket engines -- turbine parts can be tuned for single-digit failure points IIRC(!!) -- and those may indeed be "wear" parts, to be replaced every flight, or regularly scheduled in any case.  Ditto anything like, drag race engines, say.

Likewise, the materials and processing are very well known -- or can be, when there's economic incentive to do so.  Just as we can spend inordinate amounts of time researching every minute detail about say ceramic capacitors, so too can the whole industrial process, from melt formulation to microstructure and working/forming to finish machining, be examined extremely closely.

Conversely, when it's not, it's not.  A36 architectural steel is somewhat notorious as an alloy, because it's....not, it's basically one thing: 36ksi minimum yield.  It's cheap, which is also to say: highly recyclable.  There are some limits on elongation, ultimate strength (min/max), and chemical composition (max of several common elements), but a real sample could contain a fair mix of minor alloying elements, and make quite a metallurgical surprise if you [mis]used it for something technical like tools, or, engine parts or something.  Ditto rebar (which usually has a little carbon, giving higher strength).

Mind, not that A36 can nominally be hardened -- below about 0.4% carbon (it's under 0.3%), you have a very hard time quench-hardening steel at all, let alone to the degree needed for tooling (which needs more like 0.8-1% for plain carbon steel).  But, one might start with random scrap steel and then case-harden it, or a blacksmith might use scrap as a backing, forge-welded to a strip of tool steel for the tip/edge; etc.  Surprise alloys might not matter in normal handling (i.e., bolted and welded structural steel), but once you start doing metallurgical treatments like these, it starts to matter quite a lot.  And when that tool shatters in the quench bucket, after a couple dozen hours pounding away at it... you might just want to blame the alloy, and, rightly so to a fair extent.  (A better craftsman of course either understands and accepts the peril -- like a responsible EE gritting their teeth and selecting Z5Us when cost/density matters and the value spread can be guard-banded, or eventual failure is just less critical e.g. outside of warranty -- or one selects better materials in the first place, when it matters; why risk making a chisel or hammer out of something that could spall off sharp high-velocity chunks near ones' eyeballs?)

In any case, what you get for common hardware store "mild steel", is probably close to what it says on the label.  Generally you can't go down in strength, without it being just literal sponge (slag inclusions, gas pockets, rusted to hell?), in which case, how did they even manage to forge a rod/bar of it at all?! -- but you can go up in strength and end up with lack of flex, or brittle failure, especially after processing like in the above scenarios.  And in any case, we're talking like a spread of a factor of 2, say -- like from HRS yield ca. 30ksi to CRS ultimate at 60 -- plus another factor of 2 to 4, on top of accounting for peak loading, yeah you can have something that's essentially never going to fail due to loading.

The direct electrical analogy is designing to the test: if we need to pass ESD and surge, well, put in a device rated for about ten strikes each, and if it survives, great, that's it, you're done!  Will the equipment survive longer in service?  Well, that's another matter, but it's also rare that protective devices fail like clockwork, and any additional margin on ratings that you've design into the product will keep it that little bit safer.  At least until something else fails, like if you put in the SMA-package TVS (ESD "safety factor" of say 4 or more?) but forgot to get a peak-rated chip resistor beside it that happens to blow from a single 10kV strike...

Tim
« Last Edit: September 14, 2023, 04:52:22 am by T3sl4co1l »
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Offline David Hess

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Re: Which Screws Are Safe For Building a Bookcase
« Reply #57 on: September 14, 2023, 05:15:18 am »
And the Space Shuttles were never intended to fly, all that many times -- I don't know what they used, obviously they did make repeat trips, but I doubt they expected more than a thousand say, which means fatigue limits can be quite loose.  Not so much for rapidly rotating or vibrating equipment, like the rocket engines -- turbine parts can be tuned for single-digit failure points IIRC(!!) -- and those may indeed be "wear" parts, to be replaced every flight, or regularly scheduled in any case.  Ditto anything like, drag race engines, say.

NASA originally considered cracked turbine blades to be a failure however the SSMEs always returned with them so NASA redefined that as a maintenance issue, which is why the SSMEs always had to be pulled and rebuilt, which made hash of the shuttle's proposed turnaround time and cost.

Quote
Conversely, when it's not, it's not.  A36 architectural steel is somewhat notorious as an alloy, because it's....not, it's basically one thing: 36ksi minimum yield.  It's cheap, which is also to say: highly recyclable.  There are some limits on elongation, ultimate strength (min/max), and chemical composition (max of several common elements), but a real sample could contain a fair mix of minor alloying elements, and make quite a metallurgical surprise if you [mis]used it for something technical like tools, or, engine parts or something.  Ditto rebar (which usually has a little carbon, giving higher strength).

Like a 2N3055?

I was trying to make a similar point the other day about why military and aerospace fasteners are worth their cost in some applications, and why I prefer grade 8 bolts in any applications where it matters.


Of course if someone else, like SpaceX, has a cracked turbine blade, then it is a failure.
 
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Offline bostonmanTopic starter

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Re: Which Screws Are Safe For Building a Bookcase
« Reply #58 on: September 14, 2023, 05:10:10 pm »
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I'm not sure where 7k came from, unless that was a(n even more?) naive calculation of solid rod rather than all-thread.

It came from the previous calculation in the message thread where the rod can support 3500lbs. If two rods are used, then it could support twice the weight (ignoring weight distribution and external forces).

Quote
or earthquakes (as applicable; maybe not so likely if I should take "bostonman" literally, and even hurricane forces might be fairly modest in a low house one might install this in

I actually chose my user name so people who reply to any postings (from what I've seen, they can be users from many countries) can base their replies on my geographical locaiton if need be. In this case, Earthquacks was in question; which we don't experience many.

 

Offline PlainName

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Re: Which Screws Are Safe For Building a Bookcase
« Reply #59 on: September 14, 2023, 05:19:21 pm »
Why do you need to suspend this from the roof? My office has wooden walls which would struggle to support a picture frame, so everything is supported by the floor. Bench, shelves, racks, the lot. OK, there is a white board which is solely wall mounted, but it uses lightweight ink :)
 

Offline bostonmanTopic starter

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Re: Which Screws Are Safe For Building a Bookcase
« Reply #60 on: September 14, 2023, 06:16:09 pm »
Quote
Why do you need to suspend this from the roof?

Attic joists - ceiling.

Also, why not? Keep it off the floor, more open floor space, easier to clean, and, because I can. :)
 

Offline CatalinaWOW

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Re: Which Screws Are Safe For Building a Bookcase
« Reply #61 on: September 14, 2023, 07:21:29 pm »
The thing that impressed me most about those incredibly tight margins is that this was before the shuttle ever flew.  All they had was analysis, simulation and some test data from highly similar test vehicles (Atlas, Titan, Delta, X-15 and the like) in somewhat similar flight regimes.
 
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Online T3sl4co1l

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Re: Which Screws Are Safe For Building a Bookcase
« Reply #62 on: September 14, 2023, 08:36:40 pm »
The thing that impressed me most about those incredibly tight margins is that this was before the shuttle ever flew.  All they had was analysis, simulation and some test data from highly similar test vehicles (Atlas, Titan, Delta, X-15 and the like) in somewhat similar flight regimes.

And at that, mostly mockups, models -- they didn't have anywhere near the computational modeling tools we do today!

Tim
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Offline David Hess

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Re: Which Screws Are Safe For Building a Bookcase
« Reply #63 on: September 15, 2023, 09:31:47 am »
The thing that impressed me most about those incredibly tight margins is that this was before the shuttle ever flew.  All they had was analysis, simulation and some test data from highly similar test vehicles (Atlas, Titan, Delta, X-15 and the like) in somewhat similar flight regimes.

And at that, mostly mockups, models -- they didn't have anywhere near the computational modeling tools we do today!

They had strain gauges, lots of strain gauges.
 

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Re: Which Screws Are Safe For Building a Bookcase
« Reply #64 on: September 15, 2023, 05:10:40 pm »
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Online 5U4GB

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Re: Which Screws Are Safe For Building a Bookcase
« Reply #65 on: September 16, 2023, 10:55:58 am »
And the pro way is to use dowels and glue.
No reason for filler, it's invisible when done correctly. Not really possible to do with a hand drill, you need a drill press plus additional tooling.

That's the way I'd do it too, but you need a set of quite sizeable clamps for that since you no longer have the screws pulling the joint tight, really depends what the OP has access to.
 

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Re: Which Screws Are Safe For Building a Bookcase
« Reply #66 on: September 16, 2023, 11:05:39 am »
Even with 1-1/16" poplar, a 48" wide shelf may sag, particularly if loaded with heavy books (e.g., 10" deep).

Just converted that to something I understand and yeah, 1.2m unsupported filled with books is going to be a stretch.  For my bookcases I used something like 30mm nosing glued and brad-nailed to each shelf, which hugely increases the load-carry capacity of the shelf and prevents sagging.  The shelves were also supported at the back (it's a closed back) so there's no chance of any sagging, and there's a ton of weight on those bookcases.

Literally.  There's extra bearers under the floor for that room.
 

Online 5U4GB

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Re: Which Screws Are Safe For Building a Bookcase
« Reply #67 on: September 16, 2023, 11:15:34 am »
From reading the replies, it looks like the yellow Deckmate screws could bleed through over time.

I'm not familiar with Deckmate but the name and yellow colour implies they're <brandname>cote coated, designed for use outdoors in treated timber which just eats standard zinc-coated screws if there's any copper involved (CCA, ACQ, etc, there's almost always copper involved), rather than standard yellow zinc, so you may not get bleedthrough from them.

OTOH if you're working indoors with untreated timber then you can probably use anything since you're not going to expose the screws to anything nasty.
 

Offline bostonmanTopic starter

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Re: Which Screws Won't Cause Bleed through on Wood Filler For Bookcase
« Reply #68 on: September 25, 2023, 01:25:13 am »
I changed the subject to accommodate my original question more accurately.

Just an update: I took a weight of all the wood. Each shelf weighs 10lbs and the sides weigh 16lbs each, totaling 92lbs in wood weight.

Also, I bought stainless steel Torx screws, and have begun painting the wood. Hopefully by the weekend or next week I'll try screwing it together.
 

Offline bostonmanTopic starter

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Re: Which Screws Won't Cause Bleed through on Wood Filler For Bookcase
« Reply #69 on: October 12, 2023, 05:20:32 pm »
I discovered something interesting.

In order to get an idea of how wood fill would look, I took a junk piece of Poplar, drilled a hole, filled it with the wood filler, let it dry over night, and placed a layer of clear stain over it.

The section that didn't have the wood filler dried overnight as usual, however, the section with the wood filler has remained tacky for about a week now. It's less tacky than the first two or three days, but still, tacky.

On a side note, I may just keep the screws exposed as I like the look. They are countersunk, the holes have a coat of poly, and the screws are stainless steel. The look is appealing to me, so I may go with that.

I considered buying a boring bit to use pegs, but this Poplar has many different shades. I have one that has a black line down the side, another is dark, others are light, etc...)
 


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