Author Topic: My Advanced Realistic Humanoid Robots Project  (Read 67091 times)

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Offline artbyrobotTopic starter

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Re: My Advanced Realistic Humanoid Robots Project
« Reply #1000 on: November 12, 2024, 08:51:56 pm »
I mean a customer support that blindly follows the letter of the law and fails to consider the customer's point of view and be accommodating.  A robot should be programmed NOT to act that way.

But your robot WILL be programmed that way.

no it won't
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Offline Kim Christensen

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Re: My Advanced Realistic Humanoid Robots Project
« Reply #1001 on: November 12, 2024, 09:07:47 pm »
So if a customer asks your robot to do ANYTHING, then the robot will do it no matter what was requested?
 

Offline Manul

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Re: My Advanced Realistic Humanoid Robots Project
« Reply #1002 on: November 12, 2024, 10:06:12 pm »
most of my stuff I want the flex.  So may as well go all flex then.  Your flex hate is ridiculous.

I have used flex PCBs where necessary -- e.g. for a heater that wraps around a cylindric chamber and carries optical sensors at the same time. I have also explained to you their stability limitations, and have pointed out that thin rigid PCB is available as an alternative.

You, in contrast, have not explained at all why you think you need flex PCBs. I think it goes largely back to preconceptions which you developed earlier, with you concepts involving sticky tape or whatever.

Anyway, I tried to be constructive on this topic, but realize once again that that is not how you play the game. So I'll go back to watching the show. I won't bother answering to your other points.

I was just about to make a positive comment, that OP seems to move to the right direction and does not want his deadbug hacked together circuits anymore. But it seems, that fundamentally nothing changed. OP was obsessed with deadbug elite construction. Now obsessed with flat flex. Both without real wish to analyze any deeper what is good or bad about these choices. Uses a mosfet, but no wish to analyze deeper how it works. Cause why bother. I said PCB saves space, he said LOL. Yet I've made hundreds of working designs, he made none. Countless other topics, same trend everywhere. More than enough data points to extrapolate with confidence, that the attitude will never be any different. What we say pretty much does not matter. It's just his dumb show, that's all it is.
 

Offline Bud

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Re: My Advanced Realistic Humanoid Robots Project
« Reply #1003 on: November 12, 2024, 10:43:37 pm »
What we say pretty much does not matter. It's just his dumb show

To all you other dummies in this thread: Print this quote and hang it on the wall. When your fat fingers start itching again, look at the wall.
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Offline PlainName

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Re: My Advanced Realistic Humanoid Robots Project
« Reply #1004 on: November 12, 2024, 10:46:20 pm »
Hard to say what drives Daves and mods.  I've been involved with other threads where OP used a single thread that they created and were still banned. How many times have we seen it with free energy nuts.   Some topics are more related to electronics than this one.    Here is one for example on oscillators:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/my-own-original-oscillator/

The banned poster that created that topic was a prolific topic starter, so it's very unlikely that it was the case of 'a single thread'. And, indeed, the example link you give wasn't it since there were many other topics started after that by them.
 

Offline joeqsmith

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Re: My Advanced Realistic Humanoid Robots Project
« Reply #1005 on: November 13, 2024, 12:34:39 am »
Hard to say what drives Daves and mods.  I've been involved with other threads where OP used a single thread that they created and were still banned. How many times have we seen it with free energy nuts.   Some topics are more related to electronics than this one.    Here is one for example on oscillators:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/my-own-original-oscillator/

The banned poster that created that topic was a prolific topic starter, so it's very unlikely that it was the case of 'a single thread'. And, indeed, the example link you give wasn't it since there were many other topics started after that by them.

He was sub 200 posts so he was too prolific.  Scanning them, they appear  to be electronics related.   I would say if they were banned for the 10-20  threads, most of us should be banned.   Guessing it was something else that got them into trouble.   

What we say pretty much does not matter. It's just his dumb show

To all you other dummies in this thread: Print this quote and hang it on the wall. When your fat fingers start itching again, look at the wall.
Yet you keep on bitching about people posting.  If we want to talk about dummies  .... 

Offline Alex Eisenhut

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Re: My Advanced Realistic Humanoid Robots Project
« Reply #1006 on: November 13, 2024, 12:44:59 am »
Here's what happens when you put four advanced realistic humanoid robots on stage

https://youtu.be/D_8Pma1vHmw
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Offline SiliconWizard

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Re: My Advanced Realistic Humanoid Robots Project
« Reply #1007 on: November 13, 2024, 01:32:12 am »
I think the OP has serious competition:


 

Offline artbyrobotTopic starter

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Re: My Advanced Realistic Humanoid Robots Project
« Reply #1008 on: November 13, 2024, 04:13:32 am »
So if a customer asks your robot to do ANYTHING, then the robot will do it no matter what was requested?

My robot would use higher governing principles to see if it could work out a compromise or make exceptions to rules when customers had some issue, giving the customer the benefit of the doubt.  Just like me.  If I'm coding it, I would put my life strategies into it.  It will reflect me in many ways.  This is one. 

Example:  I had a customer who wanted a size of my product I don't sell and as a policy generally I would not then ship a product but he asked nicely for an exception and explained his use case and I just caved in and compromised and made the custom product order for him but told him it will be rough looking since I'm not using my normal tooling and stenciling and jigs and w/e that is setup for my normal size of the product I sell.  And there were hundreds of cases like this where I catered to customers.  My robot would not be unyielding like JLCPCB is being with me.  They will not even DISCUSS my concerns or requests they IGNORE anything I say about it which is part of their corporate training.  If they get a request they ignore it and change the subject.  It is VERY frustrating and rude.  Americans don't do this.  It is a Chinese cultural business practice thing I guess because I ran into it on aliexpress with sellers and alibaba with sellers and noticed a trend.  It is UGLY.


Let me give you an example of what they do:

car dealer:  so shall we go through with the car order you want?

buyer: well I want the car mostly but it's missing a wheel.  Can't you put the wheel on there first?

car dealer:  it is a very nice car, low mileage, would be great for a family man such as yourself.  you want it then?

buyer: yes I agree it has all those nice things, but what about the missing wheel? 

car dealer:  it is also blue, matches the sky.  it is a really good choice you've made, shall we start the paperwork?

buyer:  I really do want it yes, but with a missing wheel I can't even get it home.  Can you help me on that issue first?

car dealer:  it has a great price don't you agree?  did you want a little price reduction maybe?

buyer:  I just want the wheel fixed and I'm good.  The price is fair as is really.  I need the wheel though.

car dealer:  it is a clean car as well.  We like to keep our cars clean for customers.  So want to begin the checkout?


Rinse repeat.  They will literally ignore the missing wheel no matter what you do.  They act like you said NOTHING about it at all.  No matter what it continues this way.  It is downright annoying as can be and I see it as disrespectful and dehumanizing.  It's actually like they are gas lighting.  Like making you believe you didn't actually ask about the missing wheel perhaps.  Like makes you question reality and existence.  Am I just in a dream?  Am I hallucinating?  Why won't they answer me about the dang missing wheel WTH!?!?!?!?!
« Last Edit: November 13, 2024, 04:40:08 am by artbyrobot »
Robots Project website:  http://www.artbyrobot.com
Full humanoid robot building playlist:  https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLhd7_i6zzT5-MbwGz2gMv6RJy5FIW_lfn
 

Offline artbyrobotTopic starter

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Re: My Advanced Realistic Humanoid Robots Project
« Reply #1009 on: November 13, 2024, 04:15:53 am »

OP was obsessed with deadbug elite construction. Now obsessed with flat flex.

the flat flex is just supposed to make the deadbug style easier and a bit more automated without changing the style.
Robots Project website:  http://www.artbyrobot.com
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Offline artbyrobotTopic starter

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Re: My Advanced Realistic Humanoid Robots Project
« Reply #1010 on: November 13, 2024, 04:26:40 am »
I think the OP has serious competition:



yeah if I just wanted something bolted to a stand and moving around animatronically with ability to do zero tasks and such tiny extremely loud metal gear based motors that it doesn't have the strength to do any useful work even if it did have the AI to do it.  Trash.

Probably don't even have leg motors.
« Last Edit: November 13, 2024, 04:41:12 am by artbyrobot »
Robots Project website:  http://www.artbyrobot.com
Full humanoid robot building playlist:  https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLhd7_i6zzT5-MbwGz2gMv6RJy5FIW_lfn
 

Offline PlainName

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Re: My Advanced Realistic Humanoid Robots Project
« Reply #1011 on: November 13, 2024, 09:52:40 am »
Quote
Probably don't even have leg motors.

How much harder would it be to add mobility to something like that than starting from scratch? Wouldn't that kind of bot be a good starting place in that there is something that works and that you can incrementally improve, eventually having replaced everything if you can improve it all?
 

Offline artbyrobotTopic starter

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Re: My Advanced Realistic Humanoid Robots Project
« Reply #1012 on: November 13, 2024, 10:53:28 am »
Quote
Probably don't even have leg motors.

How much harder would it be to add mobility to something like that than starting from scratch? Wouldn't that kind of bot be a good starting place in that there is something that works and that you can incrementally improve, eventually having replaced everything if you can improve it all?

you can't incrementally improve a robot like you are saying.  The whole thing has to be moved around constantly to make a single change because there is like 98% of all space inside the thing taken up by parts.  For example: if you have like 2 grocery bags in a car trunk, there is lots of options to move stuff around.  But if you fill the thing to 98% full, you can't just put anything big in there without taking it all out and starting from scratch putting in the biggest items first then rearranging the smaller items around it.  And the whole architecture of the plastic framework has to be designed around where the motors are going to be, routing them, routing cabling, etc.  The fact you think incremental upgrades are possible without a total redesign shows you really have no experience in robotics like that.

Although I will say that if you are referring to incremental improvements made in a total fresh design iteration, making a new model each time and taking things you learned in the last model as ideas into total fresh redesigns, that is possible, however, an animatronic robot like this with super low power really isn't designed to do useful work and really is so far from what you would need that it is hardly even relevant at all.  Like these things will have like one motor for the whole hand to just be a fist or open as the two options.  My robot on the contrary has 40 motors assigned to it for just one hand and each motor is actually nearly as big as a shot glass.  So we are talking 1.5 gallons in volume worth of motors just for one hand.  That has to be designed into the whole plans of the whole blueprint from the outset.  That type of heavy motor allocation has major repercussions for every other aspect of the thing.  Really if I had one of their robots, all I could do is take off the skin to reuse and throw the rest in the trash.  Maybe keep the battery pack but heck even that would be way underpowered for a real robot.
« Last Edit: November 13, 2024, 10:59:02 am by artbyrobot »
Robots Project website:  http://www.artbyrobot.com
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Offline Alex Eisenhut

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Re: My Advanced Realistic Humanoid Robots Project
« Reply #1013 on: November 13, 2024, 11:16:10 am »
Will they need haircuts? Shave? Gillette anti-perspirant? How realistic and advanced are we talking here?
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Offline KerimF

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Re: My Advanced Realistic Humanoid Robots Project
« Reply #1014 on: November 13, 2024, 12:35:26 pm »
I used to believe in my scientific world, it is always better for me to do something not perfect (that is, having functions less than what I liked it to have) than not doing/finishing it at all. After all, making something by updating its working imperfect version, is much easier and more practical than starting from scratch.

It happens that the OP here insists to start (and finish) building a complete perfect robot (having all elite features the OP has in mind). To OP, the idea of doing anything less first is somehow a waste of time.
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Offline xrunner

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Re: My Advanced Realistic Humanoid Robots Project
« Reply #1015 on: November 13, 2024, 01:02:43 pm »
My robot on the contrary has 40 motors assigned to it for just one hand

Regarding real-time processing

How many motors are in the fully realized robot?

40 motors * 2 hands  = 80 motors

I can't go further because you haven't said anywhere I can find how many motors are in the entire robot. But there must be more than 80 motors for a fully realized robot so I'll call it 80+ motors. Here are the basic requirements for compute for the robot as I see it:

1. Gathering environmental stimuli (sight, sound, touch, temperature, etc), 
2. Processing these inputs into a correct interpretation of the scene, i.e. self-realization of the current situation
3. Form one decision to act in a certain way, based on the perceived scene. That is, the robot has to physically act in only one way, it cannot do two completely different actions at once.
4. Finally, moving possibly all 80+ motors depending on the needed action

Also for a smoothly acting machine all compute has to be happening concurrently (i.e. more than one compute system) or the real time for a single compute system has to have a fast enough real time clock and the response time of all decision making and the motors and associated systems attached to them has to happen in this real time window.

I want to know what real-time requirements you think you have to have, the update rate of all the motors (80+) in a worst case situation given the required decision making processing time, and how you arrived at this computation. I'm especially interested in how you arrived at the computation.

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Offline SteveThackery

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Re: My Advanced Realistic Humanoid Robots Project
« Reply #1016 on: November 13, 2024, 01:24:22 pm »
I used to believe in my scientific world, it is always better for me to do something not perfect (that is, having functions less than what I liked it to have) than not doing/finishing it at all. After all, making something by updating its working imperfect version, is much easier and more practical than starting from scratch.

It happens that the OP here insists to start (and finish) building a complete perfect robot (having all elite features the OP has in mind). To OP, the idea of doing anything less first is somehow a waste of time.

I totally agree with this. Whether I'm writing software, model engineering, designing and building electronics, I have found the "Agile" approach far, far better.  Actually I don't advocate the full-blown Agile suite of techniques. Rather, I mean choosing a tiny bit of the final product, knocking it together, and through a tight cycle of refinement and improvement making it ever more functional and robust. Frequently it exposes an approach that cannot work, or won't scale, or is sub-optimal in some way. Starting small makes debugging so much easier.  In some respects the early efforts are a kind of feasibility study, but one which morphs smoothly into and through the design and implementation stages. 

Another benefit is that this highly iterative approach helps to clarify the actual requirements. Sometimes it becomes clear that what you've built this afternoon (say) isn't actually what you need, it's what you thought you needed.  So we can also fold in the requirements capture stage into the smooth flow of work.  Breaking the problem into bite-sized pieces helps with modularity, which plays a crucial role in the design, development and testing stages. It makes continuous improvement of the system much easier.

The oft-quoted downside is that you often have to rework something you've already done. That is true, and is part of the philosophy, but it's better to think of it as an opportunity to improve upon your work.  It's also important to remember that the traditional approach of requirements capture, design, develop, test,  frequently exposes shortcomings far too late, when it costs a lot more to fix.

Both approaches have advantages and disadvantages,  but if I were attempting @artbyrobot's project I would do it the way I've described.  I firmly believe his approach will fail because he thinks he can design perfection into it, and then build it right first time. I don't believe that is remotely feasible for this project.  After ten years, I'm would have a finely-tuned set of subsystems - limbs, appendages, power units, all working well and set aside ready for integration into the final system.  Most people would have.  Ten years is a long time, and he's still fiddle-arsing around with flimsy tin tack and superglue pulley systems which will be ripped apart the first time someone shakes hands with the robot.  He needs a new approach.
 

Offline artbyrobotTopic starter

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Re: My Advanced Realistic Humanoid Robots Project
« Reply #1017 on: November 14, 2024, 05:02:14 am »
No alex the skin will be silicone, not real human skin. 

As far as calculating all that stuff xrunner, I can't be bothered.  No need.  I got a fast pc according to budget.  If it ain't fast enough I upgrade it or make the code more efficient or offload more processing to parallel pcs or w/e.  No problem.
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Offline Analog Kid

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Re: My Advanced Realistic Humanoid Robots Project
« Reply #1018 on: November 14, 2024, 06:20:33 am »
As far as calculating all that stuff xrunner, I can't be bothered.  No need.  I got a fast pc according to budget.  If it ain't fast enough I upgrade it or make the code more efficient or offload more processing to parallel pcs or w/e.  No problem.

In other words, I don't know. Why not be honest and just admit it?
 

Offline artbyrobotTopic starter

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Re: My Advanced Realistic Humanoid Robots Project
« Reply #1019 on: November 14, 2024, 09:19:50 am »
As far as calculating all that stuff xrunner, I can't be bothered.  No need.  I got a fast pc according to budget.  If it ain't fast enough I upgrade it or make the code more efficient or offload more processing to parallel pcs or w/e.  No problem.

In other words, I don't know. Why not be honest and just admit it?

why suggest by inference that I lied?  I said I can't be bothered to calculate the data he requested.  How does that infer I DO know and so I'm failing to admit I don't know?  You are just grasping at straws to find anything to falsely accuse me of.  Ridiculous.
Robots Project website:  http://www.artbyrobot.com
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Offline xrunner

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Re: My Advanced Realistic Humanoid Robots Project
« Reply #1020 on: November 14, 2024, 12:05:35 pm »
As far as calculating all that stuff xrunner, I can't be bothered.  No need.  I got a fast pc according to budget.  If it ain't fast enough I upgrade it or make the code more efficient or offload more processing to parallel pcs or w/e.  No problem.

As I thought would happen, you are totally clueless as to what the compute requirements are and how to derive them. You've no clue about the processing power needed, if it's available to even acquire, how much power will be needed for it, and how to distribute the processing among all the microcontrollers you will need. You just blow off requirements you haven't a clue about like so many other things. So this pretty much (as if I hadn't seen enough to say this already) dooms your ridiculous robot project to the dust bin.
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Offline artbyrobotTopic starter

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Re: My Advanced Realistic Humanoid Robots Project
« Reply #1021 on: November 14, 2024, 12:13:23 pm »
I don't even believe it is possible to calculate what you describe xrunner.  There are far too many unknown variables and you would know this if you thought about it critically which you haven't.
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Offline xrunner

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Re: My Advanced Realistic Humanoid Robots Project
« Reply #1022 on: November 14, 2024, 12:26:55 pm »
I don't even believe it is possible to calculate what you describe xrunner.  There are far too many unknown variables and you would know this if you thought about it critically which you haven't.

So you've spent 10+ years on this, will spend who knows how many more years on this. Then at some point you think you can "turn it on" and with whatever compute system you've come up with, with whatever inter-communications system you come up with, it will magically work, and if not you will just log on to Newegg and buy a better motherboard?

I know you will ignore this, but as I usually say, all the readers out there who may not be members of this forum, please think about how ridiculous a proposition this person is tossing in front of us. Build an entire robot and after all that work - THEN - find out if the compute system will work. Think about that really hard.
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Offline artbyrobotTopic starter

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Re: My Advanced Realistic Humanoid Robots Project
« Reply #1023 on: November 14, 2024, 12:33:14 pm »
People who want to do gaming and video editing and w/e will buy a big gaming pc and lots of ram and a good processor and cross fingers it will be enough.  They don't even know for sure what software they will be ending up using over the next few years and they just get the best system they can afford.  In the rare and unlikely event they come up a little shy, they upgrade the ram and videocard or the cpu or overclock the cpu to adjust and hit the requirements.  This is common.  Most people are not going to massively crunch numbers up front on this stuff beforehand.  After all, you don't really know what game you will be playing next year.  In the same way, I don't know how much ram or cpu my AI will use when my AI is only in early development and not even running yet.  So calculating the pc specs required up front is impossible.  Use your head xrunner.

Not to mention the fact that it is VERY safe to assume that in 10 years when my AI is way more advanced and resource hungry, at that time, the hardware available will vastly outclass the hardware I have access to now.  So the hardware I use now is mostly placeholder standin stuff. 

Also not to mention that it is possible to have external computers not even inside the robot to aid the robot in processing power with a fast wifi connection or something - although I'd rather avoid this due to latency concerns and wifi reliability concerns but still.  It's there as an option. 

Also not to mention FPGA has come up as being a nice boost to heavy processing offloading which I can always explore if absolutely necessary although I'd rather avoid this and know very little about it now.  But it's there as an option in any case.

So all of these backup plans just goes to show why spending lots of time trying to calculate estimates like what you are proposing would be a waste of time.
« Last Edit: November 14, 2024, 12:42:02 pm by artbyrobot »
Robots Project website:  http://www.artbyrobot.com
Full humanoid robot building playlist:  https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLhd7_i6zzT5-MbwGz2gMv6RJy5FIW_lfn
 

Offline xrunner

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Re: My Advanced Realistic Humanoid Robots Project
« Reply #1024 on: November 14, 2024, 12:38:11 pm »
People who want to do gaming and video editing and w/e will buy a big gaming pc and lots of ram and a good processor and cross fingers it will be enough.  They don't even know for sure what software they will be ending up using over the next few years and they just get the best system they can afford.  In the rare and unlikely event they come up a little shy, they upgrade the ram and videocard or the cpu or overclock the cpu to adjust and hit the requirements.  This is common.  Most people are not going to massively crunch numbers up front on this stuff before you don't really know what game you will be playing next year.  I don't know how much ram or cpu my AI will use when its not even running yet.  So calculating the pc specs up front is impossible.  Use your head xrunner.

You don't have a clue what you're talking about. Whenever you are cornered like this you just say people don't know anything or you say it just doesn't matter now so I suggest going back to the home-made pulleys or your 3D printer and printing replicas of human bones if you enjoy it. The compute calculations and design of a autonomous robot aren't your cup of tea. However you will probably fail hard at quite a few things way before you try to operate it so you will never get that far. Be thankful for that.
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