Author Topic: My Advanced Realistic Humanoid Robots Project  (Read 61975 times)

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Offline artbyrobotTopic starter

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Re: My Advanced Realistic Humanoid Robots Project
« Reply #675 on: November 05, 2024, 02:49:43 am »
What if he criticizes your thumbtack pulleys and says that obviously #2 brass finishing nails and sewing thimbles are the way to go?

He'd be corrected harshly
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Offline artbyrobotTopic starter

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Re: My Advanced Realistic Humanoid Robots Project
« Reply #676 on: November 05, 2024, 03:40:17 am »


This is a slow, careful hand test of the pulley. Everything looks good. Also, I did fast tests but didn't capture a nice shot of those with good hd closeup like this. In any case, this can show you some idea of how it all looks in action so far. The motor shaft is not turning electronically but is being turned by me pulling string wrapped around it to screen left is my hand pulling. To screen bottom is a hanging bolt that is being winched (not shown its cropped out of the image).

I wanted to avoid working on the electronic actuation which is a rabbit hole in itself until I have the pulley system fully done and tested. THEN I will make it all work electronically as the next phase.
Robots Project website:  http://www.artbyrobot.com
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Online ebastler

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Re: My Advanced Realistic Humanoid Robots Project
« Reply #677 on: November 05, 2024, 06:25:56 am »
ChatGPT (or whichever LLM you prefer) is pretty good at solving that problem. Describe some idea or question to it in layman's terms, and it will most likely give you the established terminology and point you in the right direction.

Or tell you absolute nonsense.

Meh. In the specific use case under discussion, that is no problem at all. The idea is not to take ChatGPT's output as gospel and stop right there, but to use it as a starting point for a targeted search and for reading up on the matter from specialized sources. In a situation where you don't even know what keywords to search for -- since you are unfamiliar with the domain -- this can make all the difference.
 

Online Alex Eisenhut

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Re: My Advanced Realistic Humanoid Robots Project
« Reply #678 on: November 05, 2024, 11:57:49 am »
You'll forgive me if I sound a bit unenthusiastic, but I somehow doubt that little gif is going to strike fear into Boston Dynamics.
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Online xrunner

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Re: My Advanced Realistic Humanoid Robots Project
« Reply #679 on: November 05, 2024, 12:06:56 pm »
You'll forgive me if I sound a bit unenthusiastic, but I somehow doubt that little gif is going to strike fear into Boston Dynamics.

I dunno man, I mean he's very gifted -

I'd say I have professor level or phd level knowledge moreso if you combine all aspects of robotics and Ai as a whole. 

He should show up at Boston Dynamics facility with his pulley system and AI research. Man I bet they would call a company meeting immediately and hire the guy to take over all robotics research. I bet they didn't even know this -

I really don't have to know everything about electronics from head to toe in order to develop an elite robot.  I just have to know enough to connect it all together and make it work flawlessly. 

You just, you know, connect it all together and it works flawlessly.  :-//
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Offline joeqsmith

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Re: My Advanced Realistic Humanoid Robots Project
« Reply #680 on: November 05, 2024, 01:25:58 pm »
I'd say I have professor level or phd level knowledge moreso if you combine all aspects of robotics and Ai as a whole.  I would not think that any one specific niche area I necessarily have that level of knowledge.  I don't believe for example a person with a degree in robotics would know as much as someone who knows almost exclusively electrical engineering and studied that to a very deep depth at the expense of all other categories of study.  I have enough depth in ALL related fields to be very capable as a roboticist.

Without accreditation, that claim carries little weight.   I followed a free energy scammer who claimed he had a doctorate.  A bit of research, indeed he did.  It was in nutrition.   :-DD  So he wasn't lying.   

Similar to claiming you have three companies.  Without being recognized by the IRS,  it's not a true statement.

I pioneered what I call "Board-on-Chip" or BOC. The basic concept is using the unused realestate on top of ICs to mount a circuit board which then holds more ICs.  Constructing a circuit using this 3-D technique saves space.  The wires make it very easy to reprogram the function without the need to layout a new PCB.   I think it is pure genius.   Maybe you could apply this same technique to save some space as well.   


Offline KerimF

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Re: My Advanced Realistic Humanoid Robots Project
« Reply #681 on: November 05, 2024, 01:47:55 pm »
Tiny living cells have been evolved, on earth and/or elsewhere, during millions of years, if not billions, while following zillion different paths. The fruit of one of those paths on earth is we, humans.

In fact, my origin is also a tiny living cell which started to exist by the union of two separate living cells (Who still insists that it is impossible for two separate beings to be unified and become one being only?!). And the evolution of my origin cell took only about nine months (thanks to the accumulated data and instructions inherited since the beginning of evolution) to become the baby I was.

So now, I am curious to see how OP’s Adam (likely related to Adam and Eve tale; the very important tale in introducing the notion of Creation to our ancient ancestors, kids of humanity) will look like when our dear OP will finish building it.
A philosopher: A living thing has no choice but to execute its pre-programmed instructions embedded in it (known as instincts).
Therefore, the only freedom, a human may have, is his ability to oppose or not his natural robotic nature.
But, by opposing it, such a human becomes no more of this world.
 

Offline artbyrobotTopic starter

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Re: My Advanced Realistic Humanoid Robots Project
« Reply #682 on: November 05, 2024, 09:33:05 pm »
I pioneered what I call "Board-on-Chip" or BOC. The basic concept is using the unused realestate on top of ICs to mount a circuit board which then holds more ICs.  Constructing a circuit using this 3-D technique saves space.  The wires make it very easy to reprogram the function without the need to layout a new PCB.   I think it is pure genius.   Maybe you could apply this same technique to save some space as well.

This is awesome!  It's very similar to what I'm trying to do.  It really does use 3D technique and your endorsement of it validates my vision.  Also your claim to have pioneered it affirms that it is something lesser known and new on the scene.  So my repioneering it (not having seen your work) is a valid claim.

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Offline joeqsmith

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Re: My Advanced Realistic Humanoid Robots Project
« Reply #683 on: November 06, 2024, 12:45:41 am »
I pioneered what I call "Board-on-Chip" or BOC. The basic concept is using the unused realestate on top of ICs to mount a circuit board which then holds more ICs.  Constructing a circuit using this 3-D technique saves space.  The wires make it very easy to reprogram the function without the need to layout a new PCB.   I think it is pure genius.   Maybe you could apply this same technique to save some space as well.

This is awesome!  It's very similar to what I'm trying to do.  It really does use 3D technique and your endorsement of it validates my vision.  Also your claim to have pioneered it affirms that it is something lesser known and new on the scene.  So my repioneering it (not having seen your work) is a valid claim.

This is another novel method I pioneered called perpendicular component placement (PCP, not to be confused with Angle Dust).  The idea is to save space by clocking the components 90 degrees, on their sides, rather than the typical bottom mounting.  Also note the use of the perpendicular copper ground strap.

Offline Analog Kid

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Re: My Advanced Realistic Humanoid Robots Project
« Reply #684 on: November 06, 2024, 12:56:14 am »
I don't get it; what exactly are we looking at here? What components are rotated 90°? what are all those white things sticking out from the pins of the chip?
 

Online Kim Christensen

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Re: My Advanced Realistic Humanoid Robots Project
« Reply #685 on: November 06, 2024, 01:22:32 am »
It looks like a bunch of SMD resistors and capacitors mounted on edge.
It's what we call a kludge or a bodge. That's what's happening there. ;D
 

Offline Analog Kid

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Re: My Advanced Realistic Humanoid Robots Project
« Reply #686 on: November 06, 2024, 01:39:01 am »
Oh, so those are those the brownish things connected to the white things on one end, and a copper strip on edge on the other? Gotcha.

So @joeqsmith, we hope you have a patent on this groundbreaking, pioneering innovation ...
 

Offline joeqsmith

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Re: My Advanced Realistic Humanoid Robots Project
« Reply #687 on: November 06, 2024, 01:58:33 am »
So @joeqsmith, we hope you have a patent on this groundbreaking, pioneering innovation ...

I have.  OP may use them but must pay royalties.

It looks like a bunch of SMD resistors and capacitors mounted on edge.
It's what we call a kludge or a bodge. That's what's happening there. ;D


Rapid prototyping.

Offline artbyrobotTopic starter

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Re: My Advanced Realistic Humanoid Robots Project
« Reply #688 on: November 06, 2024, 02:05:50 am »

This is another novel method I pioneered called perpendicular component placement (PCP, not to be confused with Angle Dust).  The idea is to save space by clocking the components 90 degrees, on their sides, rather than the typical bottom mounting.  Also note the use of the perpendicular copper ground strap.

Wow I love this!  Definitely something I hope to keep in mind as a tool; in the arsenal.  It is this type of creative miniaturization that I think can save the day for certain projects requiring it.  I am doing something similar in side mounting half my motor controller circuitry on one side of the motor and one half on the other side of the motor like saddle bags on a horse.  This is as opposed to all components sharing a single flat plane which would make them not all fit wrapped onto a motor.
« Last Edit: November 06, 2024, 02:10:07 am by artbyrobot »
Robots Project website:  http://www.artbyrobot.com
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Offline artbyrobotTopic starter

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Re: My Advanced Realistic Humanoid Robots Project
« Reply #689 on: November 06, 2024, 02:08:52 am »
It looks like a bunch of SMD resistors and capacitors mounted on edge.
It's what we call a kludge or a bodge. That's what's happening there. ;D

I saw Dave criticize some teardowns mentioning the dodgy brothers and bodge jobs but I disagreed.  I think things looking hand done and out of the ordinary is fine.  Even looks better than something that looks more professional IMO.  Has more personality.  As long as its thoughtfully executed and works well.
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Offline joeqsmith

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Re: My Advanced Realistic Humanoid Robots Project
« Reply #690 on: November 06, 2024, 05:03:26 pm »
Sometimes have had the need to double down on the number of ICs.   Eventually I pioneered the C^2 "see squared" or ChipOnChip technique shown.  In this photo you can see the CoC towards the left complete with capacitors mounted directly to it's leads to save space.   The IC to it's right had plenty of free real estate that could be exploited to mount the other components that were part of this circuit. 

Online Kim Christensen

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Re: My Advanced Realistic Humanoid Robots Project
« Reply #691 on: November 06, 2024, 05:12:14 pm »
Hold my beer:
 

Offline joeqsmith

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Re: My Advanced Realistic Humanoid Robots Project
« Reply #692 on: November 06, 2024, 05:33:37 pm »
We have all seen dead bugs that died upside down with their legs in the air.  Which led to the popular technique of dead bugging DIP packages.

Shown is another similar technique I pioneered called DLGA (Dead Land Grid Array). 

As I have stated,  OP's artwork shown in their original thread was pretty good.  Some complained about their other sketches.   I thought I should show my own sketch that goes along with this particular circuit change, as the IC is difficult to see in the photo.  Can I draw better?  Sure.  Will I take the time when sketching out a plan to make a circuit change?  Nope.   It's non value added. 

***
Also note the use of the more common teepee technique being used with the two LC circuits. 
« Last Edit: November 06, 2024, 05:54:41 pm by joeqsmith »
 

Offline joeqsmith

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Re: My Advanced Realistic Humanoid Robots Project
« Reply #693 on: November 06, 2024, 05:42:16 pm »
Hold my beer:

That was common practice in the day when expanding memory using DIP.   Your work or found on the internet?   Mine have all been my work. 

At 2:30 in, you can see a three stack DIP I put together to replace an IC from an IBM PC after I blew the ass end out of it.

« Last Edit: November 06, 2024, 05:46:14 pm by joeqsmith »
 

Offline Xena E

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Re: My Advanced Realistic Humanoid Robots Project
« Reply #694 on: November 06, 2024, 06:05:01 pm »
There's me thinking I was controversial stacking resistors and capacitors to form parallel CR networks, (though that's sometimes gone out to paying customers).

X
 

Offline artbyrobotTopic starter

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Re: My Advanced Realistic Humanoid Robots Project
« Reply #695 on: November 07, 2024, 04:12:18 am »
After further deliberation, I have concluded that I should put 4:1 downgearing on the motor's top with the turn in place pulleys and put 8:1 further downgearing located nearer to the joint being actuated - in this case the distal forearm.  My reasoning for this is as follows:  the routing from motor to near the joint is facing turns and friction etc and these become smaller factors when under lesser loads.  So leaving things more high speed low torque initially during this phase of the routing is advantageous to lower friction and issues relating to deformation and compaction on the guidance tubing.  This means less wear and tear and lower maintenance as well.  Next, the turn in place pulleys are quite difficult to work with being very small and compact and lots of winding and whatnot is hard to deal with and tedious.  Further, the turn in place style, when fully winched in has a much lesser downgear ratio compared to when fully extended due to the relative diameter size ratios of the pulley pairs involved changing in size during the winching.  Whereas in the Archimedes pulley downgearing system the mechanical advantage is fixed and doesn't change during the entire flexion nor extension process.  This makes it more reliable and limits our losses during the near end of the winching phase that are incurred in the turn in place technique.  This ensures we retain adequate mechanical advantage during all times. 

Another important update is I have added axial rotation to the proximal finger joint in CAD.  My index finger has a little bit of this type of control to it so I think it will be a nice boost to control and dexterity for the robot.  Really maxing out the ability of the robot to finely manipulate its finger positions and improve performance of the fingers at all tasks.  I added the necessary 4 additional motors to achieve this into the CAD as well.  You can see the highlighted pair of axial rotation red indicator arrows which show the angle and location of the tendons from where they terminate to where they will exit the guidance tubing - the range of motion if you will.







Yet another important update is I now plan to just use a spring for the extension actuation force rather than the reverse direction turning of the motor.  This is admittedly going to give the extension less strength and the flexion less strength.  The flexion will have less strength because it is now fighting against the extension spring to get the finger to flex.  The extension will have less strength because a spring alone is making it happen rather than a strong motor making it happen.  I don't mind either of these trade-offs though because it will greatly simplify the routing - cutting it in half, simplify the motor mounted pulleys, cutting it in half, and simplify the Archimedes pulley systems, cutting the amount of them we have to make in half.  That is just a massive amount of time and effort saved.  I just am not convinced that spending that level of time and effort just to have a stronger extension of the finger joints is worth it.  Relatively passive spring powered extension of fingers is very common in hobby humanoid robot hands from what I've seen and although I've always viewed it as a lazy solution, I do see some merit in embracing more simplicity at times.  Especially if you cannot JUSTIFY the added work of the alternative.  The more I think about when I have needed finger extension to be very strong, the more I find that it seems to be a relatively rare occurrence.  It just doesn't seem to happen often.  Now as the robot grows more able with its AI and more sophisticated, and gets into more and more types of work, the occasional scenario where fully powered extension of fingers will start to crop up more and more as a need.  So at that time, I am thinking we can revisit this and get the extension actuation installed.  So I still plan to reserve space for it on the CAD and ensure it can be done without any major problems or redesigns needed.  It should be a smooth and straightforward upgrade option.  But for a minimum viable product that can meet all of my goals, it is not necessary to implement in this stage of development.  In fact, it is also possible to just have the robot install these on himself once he's building the rest of his own body.  Which means me doing it would be a waste of time if the robot could do it later instead of me.  So in any case, this acts as a MAJOR shortcut and time-saver for me and will be a big game changer IMO.  I'm excited about it.  These types of big shortcuts really move the project forward in development very rapidly in large leaps saving countless hours and I love them.  As long as they aren't shortcuts that will come back to bite us later, I'm okay with them.  I don't think this one will bite us later so I say let's go with it!

Note: it also just occurred to me that the robot could potentially have the extension actuation be in the form of geared n20 motors instead of reverse direction of the main 2430 bldc motors with pulley based downgearing.  This would save alot of work but introduce noisy metal gearing to the robot.  The reason I think this is okay to do is that these geared n20 motors would be slack lined and not interfere with fingers AT ALL nor be used on any way at all UNTIL the fingers need strong extension actuation - which as I said is incredibly rare.  In this rare event, it tapping into these geared n20 motors for some extra oomph to get the extension to actuate harder would solve the problem and the little noise it created would be a rare occurrence type of noise.  It would hardly be noticeable then and 99.999% of the time you'd never encounter this noise.  The bigger issue would be noise in a common feature like blinking.  Now THAT is annoying to hear gears EVERY TIME the robot blinks.
« Last Edit: November 07, 2024, 04:45:48 am by artbyrobot »
Robots Project website:  http://www.artbyrobot.com
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Offline artbyrobotTopic starter

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Re: My Advanced Realistic Humanoid Robots Project
« Reply #696 on: November 07, 2024, 06:40:13 am »
I have added the final pulley and rigged the guidance TPFE tube up to that pulley and routed that to the general vicinity of the Archimedes pulley downgearing system. As seen in the photo, I used super glue and post it note paper to form a TPFE guidance tube support structure to hold it in place as well as wrapped it in fabric tape and soaked that tape in super glue. I applied the super glue with the tip of a sewing needle as a precision application method.



The next step will be to test the pulley system as is and make sure everything is working really well.

If all testing passes, we will then modify the Archimedes pulley system on the forearm that we were using before to simplify it some since it now deals with only 7" or so of string compared to 27" of string it dealt with when we did not have the turn in place pulley system in place. So it will now be much more compact and fewer pulleys needed in it. So a bit of redesign and part recycling and we'll be good to go on that. Also, before, it was a 16:1 Archimedes pulley system whereas now it will just be a 8:1 system.
Robots Project website:  http://www.artbyrobot.com
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Online ebastler

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Re: My Advanced Realistic Humanoid Robots Project
« Reply #697 on: November 07, 2024, 06:41:24 am »
You are now back-pedaling on several aspects which you have considered core to your design so far: No gears, exclusive reliance on the multi-stage winch reduction. That's good since it is a step towards more realistic implementations. It would be even better, and easier for yourself, if you had not preached so arrogantly about how your earlier design is so superior and such a breakthrough.

My prediction is that we will soon see the stationary winch reduction disappear entirely from your design, to be replaced by gears and maybe Archimedes-type pulleys as a second stage. Well, I don't know about "soon" -- let's say when you actually try motorized motion of a few joints.
 
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Offline artbyrobotTopic starter

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Re: My Advanced Realistic Humanoid Robots Project
« Reply #698 on: November 07, 2024, 07:48:39 am »
You are now back-pedaling on several aspects which you have considered core to your design so far: No gears, exclusive reliance on the multi-stage winch reduction.

These have come and gone though.  My first first first design was hydraulics and I ruled that out quickly.  Then I went to pneumatics and ruled that out quickly.  Then I went to standard metal gear servos and ruled that out quickly.  Then I went to dc motors with no gearing (brain fart didn't realize downgearing is a necessity at the time) and ruled that out.  Then I went to bldc motors with archimedes pulleys and no other gearing.  Then I determined that needed a pre-downgearing phase since it had too much runout.  The idea to use the turn in place winch system was only a recent development and a idea to remove the need for archimedes pulleys entirely.  I lean away from that now due to issues with the diameters changing so much during winching that the mechanical advantage suffers way too much variability and especially on the end when fully winched there is only a fraction of the mechanical advantage it has when fully unwinched and just beginning winching.  So hybrid was determined best.  Really every single example listed above could be done in theory with massive repercussions and design alterations, however, I'm looking for the best fit for my chosen constraints such as human-like bone structure and human form factor and silent operation and near human level strength and speed etc.  So there is a trial and error type of experimentation process.  That doesn't mean any of my past initiatives were bad.  Also your suggestion that I'm now advocating for or okay with metal gearing is utterly false.  I will have ZERO metal gearing in my entire robot for ALL of its operation and ONLY as a backup power in VERY rare circumstances will I turn to very tiny metal geared motors for some extra oomph they pack in a very small form factor and I'm only going with this as a convenience thing and because the frequency this will be used would be like 1 second every week or every other week.  That is how rare.  So to suggest I'm full blow metal gear guy now is absurd.

Also going exclusively turn in place pulley style was moreso just a recent idea because it appeared it could all fit on the motor.  But after seeing how thick the wraps get and how tight it all is when put into actual practice, I just deemed it too much hassle.  It still can be done effectively but there would have to be some big changes to them, making it at least quite a bit bigger which would start to defeat its upside quickly as it would not fit in my existing CAD anymore and I do not want to change all the CAD which took forever to do already.  So I'm trying to work within my existing CAD constraints space-wise as well.  But in any case I did not preach about the winch in place style at all really.  I only brought it up like a handful of days ago it wasn't even on my radar before then.
« Last Edit: November 07, 2024, 07:53:42 am by artbyrobot »
Robots Project website:  http://www.artbyrobot.com
Full humanoid robot building playlist:  https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLhd7_i6zzT5-MbwGz2gMv6RJy5FIW_lfn
 

Online ebastler

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Re: My Advanced Realistic Humanoid Robots Project
« Reply #699 on: November 07, 2024, 08:08:40 am »
So to suggest I'm full blow metal gear guy now is absurd.

Strawman argument. I did not suggest that this is where you are in your design. I stated that it is likely where you will be, after enough torn, jammed and derailed strings.
 


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