Paint Bubbles On Snowblower

[bostonman]

Since this is a mechanical question, I figured this would be the best place to post my question.

I have an Ariens snowblower that's maybe eight-years-old and I always maintain it along with cleaning the body before storing it for the summer. This year I noticed the paint is bubbling in many areas.

My parents also have an Ariens that's well over twenty-years-old, and, with the exception of paint chips, the paint is immaculate.

They don't live far from me, so we get equal salt poured from the plow trucks, and we both store them the say way in all seasons.

The bubbles can be seen in the attached picture. Most places that are bubbling have a black color that doesn't come off easy.

My question: since both snowblowers are the same company (different vintages though), they see the same type of snow/salt, etc... Does anyone know what is happening with the paint on mine?

My assumption is that it's a factory issue and the paint didn't adhere to the metal, but I'm not a paint person.

[BrokenYugo]

I'd guess bad prep, rust under the paint type issues.

[coromonadalix]

bad prep,  contaminated surfaces ...

[bostonman]

Bad prep and contamination was my fear.

A few weeks ago I was at the Ariens supplier store where I purchased it and asked whether other customers have complained about the paint. They claim that this was a first they've heard of it, said it's too old to still be under any warranty (which I assumed), and offered to sell touch up spray paint.

The only thing I did differently in the garage (where the snowblower is stored) this past summer was sand wood, not PT, just natural wood. I thought maybe the saw dust did something, but doubt it since it's just wood. My toolbox and car didn't see any sort of issues, but figured I'd mention the wood since it's the only thing I've done different since owning it.

[T3sl4co1l]

I would guess pinholes letting through the tiniest bit of contamination; could be ambient salt spray (e.g. sweaty dust, road dust, partially melted snow, etc.), condensation, just high humidity; and, if the paint is tight otherwise and the rust is black, it would seem to be Fe(II) i.e. a reducing atmosphere, oxygen-poor, so at least it's going slowly, and that means the paint is mostly doing its job except for where it's been compromised.  Unfortunately I don't think there's much to do about that, other than grind it down and repaint it, and get it coated in enough layers to be sure it's not pinholed.

Possibly a microscope can confirm pinholing, but you'll have to inspect a lot of surface to tell, probably with a good scope, and... whatever.  I suppose if you can do a fluorescent stain process that would be handy.

When done in use, keep it hosed down with fresh water, let it dry out, I suppose; keep it in a dry place, etc.  About all you can do now is reduce continued growth.

Probably the engine, gearing or impeller(s) wears out before panels rust completely through anyway, and if not, patches are easy enough to weld in place (assuming you are so equipped, or can get someone to do it economically -- even a top professional should be able to do that for a couple hundred bucks, well under the thousand ish sale price of a new one?), then grind down and repaint.

Tim

[coppercone2]

if you want it to last and not break through it needs car body style repair

[bostonman]

Probably the engine, gearing or impeller(s) wears out before panels rust completely through anyway

Possibly, but I tend to maintain it well along with replacing anything worn or close to worn. The last thing I want is to have it breakdown during the winter or during a storm, and need to repair it in the cold weather.

Would the pinholes be a result of the metal not being prepped correctly at the factory and forming or pinholes were present from the factory and caused the bubbling?

[T3sl4co1l]

Factory prep? Perhaps. Bad paint formulation? Possible.  Incorrectly applied?  Possible. Inappropriate or poor undercoat/primer, or surface activation,  or plating or etc.?  Who knows.  Coatings are a science, but an endlessly complicated one; there are dozens of things that can go right, and thousands that can go wrong.

Which is to say, it is possible to do everything right, and still not have a perfect result.  Hardly grounds for a warranty claim, for example -- if they released product that was grossly and obviously out of compliance with their production standards, yeah, but if they've already done their best effort, I mean, what are you going to expect anyway, at best you just get the thing replaced with an exactly identical product that has the same spread of tolerances.  And not saying you're looking for a warranty claim or any legal remedy, that was already mentioned earlier in this thread anyway, just to say, for things along those lines, what kind of legal sort of basis, if say one wanted to press the issue and if it were still in scope.

I don't see where frame corrosion will ever cause functional breakdown, until it's so visually apparent that you're literally seeing light through it.

A perspective that you may find useful.  Steels are often rated in terms of -- wait, we went over this before, with your allthread question, didn't we? -- Material loss rate as a result of corrosion, say in terms of mm/yr, or /decade, under specified conditions.  Clearly, the corrosion rate is currently low; if the bubbling gets thicker, the affected area wider, the paint starts flaking off wholesale -- those are warning signs to monitor.  Until then, don't sweat it, keep it clean, oh and waxed, wax probably helps here too -- and consider major servicing as mentioned if it gets structurally concerning.

Tim

[bostonman]

wait, we went over this before, with your allthread question, didn't we?

Are you referring to the discussion about threaded rod?

Ariens has been around for decades, so I remain shocked they managed to mess up the paint. Then again, I had a Buick that had paint literally coming off like sheets of paper. Turned out GM did something wrong at the factory (I think it was a recall) that made the paint not adhere to the metal.

The sad part about the snowblower is that I devote a solid three-hours prepping it for summer storage including cleaning the body with regular household spray cleaner, keep the wheels off the ground, and even shine the tires.

The paint bubbling and knowing it will eventually flake off is that now it feels all that time was wasted.

[T3sl4co1l]

Not wasted, it might've done this, or much worse, sooner, without cleaning and all that.  But I understand the disappointment.  Unfortunate, but that's just reality, everything gets older, steel rusts, bodies creak, there is no escape from the inevitable embrace of entropy.

Tim

[DenzilPenberthy]

...  including cleaning the body with regular household spray cleaner...

This may well be your problem. Household spray cleaner is probably either acidic to clean limescale or basic to clean fat/grease. I wouldn't use it to clean paintwork that I wanted to stay nice. 

Wire wheel over the loose paint and repaint. I'd use water to wash off salt, then an oily rag to clean and preserve personally. It is a snowblower, not a cherished classic car. Perhaps you could use automotive car shampoo etc if you want it to be shiny.

[bostonman]

This may well be your problem. Household spray cleaner is probably either acidic to clean limescale or basic to clean fat/grease.

Usually I use regular spray cleaner or Simple Green, however, as mentioned, I use the same methods and cleaners on my other snowblower for my parents; and their snowblower is three times older with the paint looking like it came off the factory floor.

You could be correct though, maybe it's a cleaner due to a different painting process on my newer snowblower.

[coppercone2]

its more then likely damage from salt, if there is salt around, it wrecks everything

not to mention thin metal that vibrates = dead paint. If you made the body thicker it would likely help.

i think it looks good for the age. i expect them to crap out much quicker then that

[bostonman]

not to mention thin metal that vibrates = dead paint. If you made the body thicker it would likely help.

Maybe that's the difference between my parents' snowblower and mine. As mentioned, their snowblower looks like it came off the assembly line (minus paint chips from natural wear and tear). Mine, the weld around the shoot at the base (the part that spins) is beginning to rust, the valve cover has rust all over it, and the rims have some rusting.

Edit: believe I mentioned this already, but their snowblower is about three-times older than mine; maybe more.

i think it looks good for the age. i expect them to crap out much quicker then that

Thanks for the compliment.

What shocks me is my friends do very little to their snowblowers (and yard equipment) even leaving gas year round and their snowblowers start without an issue. Unless my snowblowers were used very little and/or hasn't had extensive work the previous year when prepping for summer storage, I put it in the "service" position, remove the bottom cover, grease everything, check the friction disc, remove the tires, grease the shafts, remove the sheer bolts, grease the auger shaft and spin the auger to make sure it spins freely, obviously change the oil, clean (or replace) the plug including checking the gap even if it's a new plug, and of course clean all the surfaces.

[DiodeDipShit]

I think I have the same model snow blower model. Mine in nowhere as degraded. It has some chipping and inside the chute has normal abrasion. The subsurface rust is caused by poor sheetmetal degreasing prep and/or insufficient priming before paint. They just don't make them as good as my first inherited 60's Snobird or even My 80's Craftsman replacement which both looked great when I brought them to recycling. I wish I had just replaced the drivebelt and carburetor on the Craftsman. By the way, I have had to replace the spark plug wire already on the Ariens. I used a nice red wire universal automotive sparkplug wire kit. It runs better without the arrestor.

BTW, bare metal prep, especially aluminum metal prep is so important for electronics ! ! !
 Always degrease well, then Iridite/chromate before coating for long lasting antioxidation.

[bostonman]

The garage seems to have high humidity in the summer (although I never measured it).

My tools, although many Harbor Freight, have rust on them and why I suspect high humidity.

My only remaining question is whether humidity would cause the paint bubbles? If the paint is done correctly, my assumption is regardless of temperature/humidity, it should provide a solid seal and would remain good.

[coppercone2]

my garage has awful humidity but I keep everything heavily greased and its suprisingly OK. Harbor freight usually rusts more (their pliers) for any reason, maybe poor finishing or descaling or something.

Its paint, the problem is MOSTLY in the prep. All you can do is keep it washed and waxed.. car wax is good.

But the fact is the paint bond is a molecular level bond that is mostly on an atomicly thin interface doing all the work. I find that best results come from burning the surface after cleaning with a torch, usually you still get some residue beading up and turning into thin streaks of soot.

There could be a billion problems, say dirty sanding media, unusually dirty solvent (moved refinery to china), someone missed a spot, messed up sand blaster nozzle on a assembly line that was maybe leaving some area under cleaned, bad/old paint, not mixing paint properly, unusually dirty sheet metal that was cleaned according to the procedure... it just keeps going on and on. Combine one or more of these issues with thinner chassis that flexes more, cracks or flakes and lets salt water under the coating and this happens.


The thing that makes the bubble is rust growing under the paint. Humidity if there is more condensation will let more moisture under paint once there are cracks. Paint will likely absorb a bit of water (in very low levels) and swell slightly. But if the paint is good, I don't think its a critical factor.


I would strongly bet that there was a problem in the paint booth that day. I have seen it happen. It can be as simple as someone (with no knowledge of chemistry) refusing to buy fresh solvent when the tech would normally get it replaced....

[coppercone2]

if your really that curious you can get a paint thickness gauge and a micrometer. measure how thick your parents chassis is, and measure the paint coating thickness. compare to yours. i bet you its thinner in paint layer and also chassis metal thickness. I have seen the trend now is to use advanced stiffening techniques to use cheaper thinner metal, its alot cheaper. test equipment has this too now, because they have CNC bead roller machines that can let you cut the gauge UP a little. Then there is the 'research' coming from paint manufacturers that claim you don't need as much as 'old paint' because of 'technological improvements'. Maybe is somewhat true in their limited lab tests, but in real life, I definately see the older chassis designs being more robust. PC cases too!

but its not the same as having  thicker chassis. Not for point impacts on small particles, not for all modes of vibration, it just feels 'stiff enough' in the hands during basic handling.

also those dodgy wonder products like paint+primer in one, or glossy paint to skip the clear coat step (clear coat is like armor even if the paint LOOKS similar). It might have also used to have been waxed in the factory and cured longer (slower assembly line) before shipping. Notice how stuff sometimes smells like paint in the box now?

Like you will probobly get better 'milage' from primer + paint + clearcoat rather then glossy paint+primer single coat. but it takes like 3x longer to make..



Paint had like a bad spot when they started getting rid of lead. then they had some dodgy paint for a while, then that got fixed, but then you get cost cutting 'improvements'.


ANd they did get screwed a few times since the 90's (for good reason), that is... some solvents start getting restricted. It turns out that paint tech using the wonder solvent was not having such a great time medically. Whenever this kind of change happens it takes a while to fix it, and sometimes its never as good. I.e. lead free solder caused damage in the many 0's because of tin whiskers. What happens when they stopped letting people hose down stuff with nice water free Benzene and switched to hydroscopic solvents? Or when their bad-ass smoke spewing ovens got restricted?


if you read some older industrial procedures their pretty bad ass, like pour 1 gallon of fresh carbon tetrachloride and gasoline mixture down the tube and drain into sewer. now you get arrested if you did that. but you might live long enough to afford another snow blower now

[bostonman]

I'm more than willing to bet the metal is thinner and/or paint. I did a knock test and it seemed both snowblowers had the same deep sound, but I didn't calibrate my knuckles before attempting this test.

Funny, my Harbor Freight channel lock pliers are full of rust while their adjustable wrenches remain shiny.

My thought has been confirmed and that the humidity in the garage wouldn't affect the paint. Now that it's bubbling and has dings in it from using it, the humidity will play a different role.

[joeqsmith]

...
I have an Ariens snowblower that's maybe eight-years-old and I always maintain it along with cleaning the body before storing it for the summer. This year I noticed the paint is bubbling in many areas.

My parents also have an Ariens that's well over twenty-years-old, and, with the exception of paint chips, the paint is immaculate.
...

I also have a 28" that was made in 2010.  Mine appears powder coated.  The chute gets the most abuse but for the age, not a lot of chips from the occasional stones.   I wonder if they changed the secret sauce in order to sell to the large box chains.   
 
I really like this blower for several reasons.  Easy to start, reliable and has enough power to move a decent amount of snow with a single pass.  The only things I have replaced are the shoes, rubber drive disk and belts.   The track drive is a big plus.  I can set the height to a few inches and cut paths in the yard for the dog and not worry about digging into the grass.    The down side, it is slow. Painfully slow.  So slow, that I modified the drive train so the disk will ride right on the edge.  This was drilling new holes in the shaft and changing some linkage.  Even then, in the highest gear, it is still too slow.   

[bostonman]

Good to know and appreciate all the feedback.

Ironically my parents' snow blower (around twenty-three-years old now) was purchased at Home Depot. Mine was purchased at an "authorized" dealer. I noticed HD sold the same unit for somewhere around $1200 and advertised all the nifty features except the torque (I think 12ft-lbs). The one at the authorized dealer was around $1400 and 15ft-lbs.

As for being slow, I'm surprised. Normally I use the slowest speed regardless, but, when I want to go somewhere fast, the fastest setting would be nearly running along with it. In the snow/ice, I typically never want to move fast regardless as one wrong move and I'm on the ground.

The things I dislike about my snow blower: the RPMs ramp up under a load. This causes light snow or a small amount to not be thrown as far if it doesn't detect enough of a load to ramp up the RPMs. The zero radius turning is good, but tends to cause jerking as the pads grip bare sections and slip on snow/ice. Also, just a pet peeve is the crank to turn the shoot direction isn't in a good place. I usually snow blow around the house to keep the snow away from the foundation, so as I come around tight corners, I have to change the direction of the shoot. Hard to do when I have one hand over the bars and one hand controlling the blower. My parents' have a crank in the front, so i can use both hands much better to control everything.

Also, one really odd thing that happens with mine is the float sticks. With both snow blowers, I run them dry before storing for the summer. My parents' snow blower has a spring loaded screw on the bowl that when pressed, allows all the remaining gas in the bowl to empty. Mine has a screw that allows me to do the same; except I need to unscrew it. My parents' snow blower never has any issues, however, mine, when I fill it with gas and use it for the first time sometimes starts pouring gas out of the carburetor. This happens only once and it's good for the entire winter.

Usually the float frees itself and all is well, sometimes I need to turn off the gas line (thankfully mine has a turn off), remove the screw on the bowl, and use the straw from a spray can to push the float to free it. This past winter I (thankfully) didn't have this issue.

[joeqsmith]

I had provided Ariens with my modifications and it appears they offered a kit at one point to improve it.   The track system changes the ratio. 

https://www.ariens.com/en-us/part/ariens-sno-thro-track-drive-speed-up-kit-72101900

If you still have the original friction wheel in yours, and when you inspect it you are not seeing a lot of wear, it could very well be that mine wears more because of the tracks and my changing the ratio to get it to run faster. 

I typically never want to move fast regardless as one wrong move and I'm on the ground.

Having it run so slow actually puts me at higher risk as I manhandle it, especially when backing up. 

I have never drained mine.  I keep a fuel additive in it and will change the gear and motor oil and grease it is about all.   

The chute  on mine is just a bar with a band in it.  I can lock the auger and auto drive, so it's not a problem to adjust with the other hand while blowing.

Mine has no speed control like you mention.  Just the old time governor.  I wonder if that is some sort of fuel saving mode. 

[bostonman]

Mine has no speed control like you mention.  Just the old time governor.  I wonder if that is some sort of fuel saving mode.

Governor is probably the correct term to use. At rest, it idles low, push it into a pile of snow, and the RPMs ramp up. As a result, I imagine the driving speed would increase too. Edit: Also, since day one, I've always smelled rubber - like the belts are burning.

I changed the friction disc on mine too. it wasn't worn, but had a chunk ripped out. Although it was perfectly fine, as mentioned previously (and others probably agree), the last thing I want to do is have a broken snow blower mid-winter.

Although a few quirks, I'm very happy with mine, until I saw the paint bubbles. I guess rust on a few various areas too was disappointing, but more the paint. The incentive now to keep it clean has dwindled and feel once the paint peels making it look like a 70s has-been model, the desire to paint it with "touch up" paint won't be an interest.

[mendip_discovery]

Didn't realise you didn't know what I meant by marker. I mean as in permanent marker like you get from the stationers. It wipes off with IPA.

[coppercone2]

Mine has no speed control like you mention.  Just the old time governor.  I wonder if that is some sort of fuel saving mode.

Governor is probably the correct term to use. At rest, it idles low, push it into a pile of snow, and the RPMs ramp up. As a result, I imagine the driving speed would increase too. Edit: Also, since day one, I've always smelled rubber - like the belts are burning.

I changed the friction disc on mine too. it wasn't worn, but had a chunk ripped out. Although it was perfectly fine, as mentioned previously (and others probably agree), the last thing I want to do is have a broken snow blower mid-winter.

Although a few quirks, I'm very happy with mine, until I saw the paint bubbles. I guess rust on a few various areas too was disappointing, but more the paint. The incentive now to keep it clean has dwindled and feel once the paint peels making it look like a 70s has-been model, the desire to paint it with "touch up" paint won't be an interest.

it could be a spot defect you know like a greasy glove that touched it and smeared some oil in the wrong place too. might not be totally wrong..  there are MANY possibilities with paint going bad. or someone shuffled a part around on the assembly line and it skipped a step on a hectic day. trust me its amazing if you can put together 5 pieces in a factory correctly all the time lol



I recommend getting the spray on paint remover and repainting it. it only sucks if you have to scrub paint. i mean the areosol paint stripper. thats alot of money to throw away because of a skin problem. you can buy a differential probe for that money lol