Used Precision Lathe machine

[jpanhalt]

I agree with the sentiment that the best thing to do is to look around your area.  Also, wanting to " produce small and precision things for the instrumentation industry."  Is not a business plan.  It is not even a plan.  One of my many aunts and uncles was a watchmaker/jeweler.  I learned on his lathe to make various parts, like stems and pinions.  His lathe was classical:


Notice, there is no compound rest.  You held the triangular cutting tool like a pencil.  Dimensions were largely done by comparison (think of a comparator), not by micrometer.  Great fun for many weekends over a few years during elementary school, learned a lot, but making such parts is not how I would want to earn money nor how my uncle did.  Watchmaking and repair got the customers into the store.  The money was made on selling jewelry.  That's one of the things I learned by watching.  You may want to re-think your business plan.

Sorry for going so off topic, but I sense you are young and inexperienced.  Money generally comes from the commerce side, not the making side.

[beanflying]

Based on the sort of questions you are asking and your plan to make a $ from owning a Lathe it doesn't really stack up. If as it sounds you have only 'some' experience then forget about making your fortune or even a living with your first Lathe.

You will NOT make much or anything from owning anything 'small' unless you are making very very niche products you will simply never compete on price/time/quality. What you will get from owning and using a smaller Lathe is experience and strategies to get a refined result at the expense of time, these lessons will never be lost as you progress. There is benefits to going down this path as a start point lower costs, smaller footprints and much easier resale for less loss when/if you decide you need a larger Lathe.

Buying a 6' bed secondhand 30-50 year old lathe that is worn out in the ways and has heaps of runout might as well be a chunk of scrap metal and unless you are lucky or really do your homework (or be allowed to do some test cuts) this might be the result. If you need to fight with a worn out device again you will produce sub standard or need to spend time dialing in a result.

[fcb]

I think we are going round in circles xzswq21.

The general consensus, seems to be buy a solid secondhand lathe (difficult to assist unless we know the country or perhaps even the continent).

You will probably get more detailed advice on a model engineering forum about new low-end lathes than on a forum primarily inhabitated by EE's.

[Kean]

Some of the Proxxon tools are pretty good, but they are generally not suitable for any profesional use except for maybe the most expensive lathes where there will be better options.

In almost all cases I don't think Proxxon are good value for money.   The KGS 80 cut off saw is pretty awesome - one of my favourite tools, and I would buy it again.

[Kean]

In reality, only Chinese small machines are on the market, sold under 50+ different brands. Whether it's Stuermer, Klippfeld, Grizzly, HF, Taig... they're all the same machines with different paint jobs, labels and mechanics (eg, inch/metric).

Taig are not rebadged Chinese machines.  They don't even look anything like the Chinese machines.

The price differences between the machines come from the quality control and demands of the EU/US importers.
Some just sell them as is (eg, HF), others check every corner and verify the precision of the parts and the quality of the castings.

This is certainly true, and my experience.  Many of tools made in China are just sold as-is from whichever factory pumps them out cheapest, but some specialist sellers will stock only the best models and inspect/rebuild with better bearings, minor modifications, extra accessories, etc.

As always price alone isn't an indicator of quality.  I'd suggest trying to find a local community of hobby machinists (e.g. model makers, micro steam engines, etc) and chat with them.  They'll often use older machines which they've had for years, but will know what is important and maybe know someone who can help you.  I got started by reading a lot of websites, buying a cheap second hand lathe and mill to learn on, and then chatting with the old engineers at the local model engineering society about techniques and "traps for young players" (while going on several very enjoyable mini stream train rides).

Also, important to your budget... after you buy the machine you will spend several times as much again on accessories, tooling, and raw materials.

[jpanhalt]

This is a "Schaublin 102":

But I don't know if this is good or not

That lathe has some nice features.  Only an inspection and feel can tell whether it is in good condition.  Fresh paint may be a bad sign.  Did the original Schaublin have scraped ways?  If not, someone has scraped them. If it did, you can use scraping to assess wear.  Be aware, however, that some people do fake scraping to make a lathe appear less worn.   What you want to do it to turn a trial piece.  Schaublin is apparently still in business (https://www.smsa.ch/en/Products.html ).

That starting bid may not represent the final bid.  You can check "completed" auctions.  Twenty years ago, they were hot items.  I don't know about today.

Finally, a small lathe is quite limited.  There is very little, if anything, it can do that a larger lathe cannot do.  Of course, the converse is not true.  It's main advantage is portability and power requirements.

[Benta]

The Schaublin 102 is one of the best.
Forget the current price, that one is going to go for several thousand.

[xzswq21]

The Schaublin 102 is one of the best.
Forget the current price, that one is going to go for several thousand.

Can I make internal and external thread with it?

[beanflying]

The Schaublin 102 is one of the best.
Forget the current price, that one is going to go for several thousand.

Can I make internal and external thread with it?

Again if you are asking those questions you need to narrow your search and or do some serious research. Buying used brand names is a really bad idea without history or really knowing what you need.

Most people with more basic lathes and in particular for smaller sizes will not use the Lathe to cut internal threads but if it will cut external ones it will cut internal ones providing you set it up properly. Typically Taps in the tailstock make much more sense unless you have a real need not to.

The electronic leadscrew referenced a few posts ago can be a good way to get around the issue of a particular Lathe only having metric or imperial thread gears and difficult gear setups for thread cutting. Same deal do some watching of James/Clough 42 as he only runs what I would call a mid sized Garage lathe and produces some great work with it.

[Benta]

The Schaublin 102 is one of the best.
Forget the current price, that one is going to go for several thousand.

Can I make internal and external thread with it?

You can always make threads, provided the lathe has a geared leadscrew. And I haven't seen one without.

[jpanhalt]

Can I make internal and external thread with it?

You started with looking for an inexpensive, "precision," used lathe and gave several examples of what you were looking for -- apparently because they had "precision" in the name.  Now, you indicate a need for internal threads, perhaps blind internal RH threads.  I suspect you have very little, if any experience turning threads, much less RH internal threads.

You apparently want to buy a lathe without a need.  My advice, buy a really cheap one and learn.   Make some external RH threads without half-nuts/counter -- like some of the machines you showed.  Then, you will appreciate why they exist.  NB: Everything I say re. lathes is with respect to manual lathers.

[xzswq21]

The Schaublin 102 is one of the best.
Forget the current price, that one is going to go for several thousand.

Can I make internal and external thread with it?

You can always make threads, provided the lathe has a geared leadscrew. And I haven't seen one without.

I asked the question bcoz I didn't see any leadscrew in the link I sent before, so I thought the Schaublin 102 is only for external and internal cutting.

[Benta]

The Schaublin 102 has the leadscrew in the middle under the bed ways. But that one seems to be a "Lego-kit" and there's no guarantee that it's complete.
Still, just parting it out as spare parts will bring a lot of money.

[Benta]

@xzswq21

Let me reveal the machine in my workshop: a quantum D250x550, 20+ years old. Like this one, but bench mounted (~135 kg):
https://www.wgm-maschinen.de/metallbearbeitung/drehmaschinen/quantum-drehmaschine-d-250-x-550-vario.html#&gid=1&pid=1
Quantum and Optimum were the two brands Stuermer had back then. Quantum for lower cost, Optimum for full features.
The equivalent machine today would be the OPTIturn TU 2506.

It's a China machine, but has served me well. The bed ways are straight, ground and hardened. Achieving 0.01 mm tolerances is no problem, I've used it for <0.005 mm as well, but this requires some care.

Are there downsides: yes of course. The rear chip guard was a pain in the a** and got thrown away. Changing spindle speed means relocating the V-belt (the new vario drives have solved this). Changing feed or setting up for thread cutting means playing around with gear wheels. The cross slide is too narrow and has no T-slots for accesories.

I've used the machine for aluminium, brass, steel, stainless steel, alloyed steel with no problems at all. It's not a machine for making big chips, but it's precise.

In short: don't be afraid of Chinese machines from a reputable supplier.

Go for the TU 2004 or TU 2304 (preferred) or similar, then this saga is over.

[xzswq21]

@xzswq21

Let me reveal the machine in my workshop: a quantum D250x550, 20+ years old. Like this one, but bench mounted (~135 kg):
https://www.wgm-maschinen.de/metallbearbeitung/drehmaschinen/quantum-drehmaschine-d-250-x-550-vario.html#&gid=1&pid=1
Quantum and Optimum were the two brands Stuermer had back then. Quantum for lower cost, Optimum for full features.
The equivalent machine today would be the OPTIturn TU 2506.

It's a China machine, but has served me well. The bed ways are straight, ground and hardened. Achieving 0.01 mm tolerances is no problem, I've used it for <0.005 mm as well, but this requires some care.

Are there downsides: yes of course. The rear chip guard was a pain in the a** and got thrown away. Changing spindle speed means relocating the V-belt (the new vario drives have solved this). Changing feed or setting up for thread cutting means playing around with gear wheels. The cross slide is too narrow and has no T-slots for accesories.

I've used the machine for aluminium, brass, steel, stainless steel, alloyed steel with no problems at all. It's not a machine for making big chips, but it's precise.

In short: don't be afraid of Chinese machines from a reputable supplier.

Go for the TU 2004 or TU 2304 (preferred) or similar, then this saga is over.

I really appreciate you for your help, I should finish this saga
can I reduce the speed to less than 150 RPM? (sometimes I need such a low RPM)

[Benta]

Turn the spindle by hand.

Over and out.

[Jester]

If you can you want power feed on both axis and bigger/heavier/rigid is certainly a plus if you have the space/$$. The video below is a good starting point and watch some more of Quinn's videos to see what you can do on a smaller Lathe.

If you want to go off the deep end, Clough's Electronic Leadscrew attachment for his Grizzly lathe.



Edit.  You can always add a digital readout (DRO) later.
Clough actually shows adding a DRO to his new milling machine.

I have the Canadian (Chinese) version of this lathe CX706 and made my my own twist on the ELS no Launchpad required. This is a great upgrade and I can’t imagine not having a lathe, they are simply indispensable. If you end up going this direction and want to do the ELS, let me know I have a small PCB that makes it easy.

[totalnoob]

Jester,

I would be interested in your design.  I really like Clough 42's, but would also like to incorporate a way to also drive the crosslide on my old Craftsman lathe that does not have either a QCGB or powered crosslide.  Not interested in full CNC, just a way to make manual machining easier.

Thanks.

[richard.cs]

until you try with teflon, which is like hard chewing gum that move, expands, and contracts ...

Are yes, wonderful stuff except that it looses all its useful mechanical properties above -40°C

;-)

[xzswq21]

This is the tool post of the TOYO ML-360:


as you see in the picture, the cross section of the the tool holder is 8x8, can I fit a 10x10 tool holder in the tool post? in case of using a 10x10 tool holder can I align the center of the tailstock with the cutting inserts tip? actually it's a simple tool post.
I need a larger tool post for the lathe.

can I use a Proxxon PD 250 Quick change tool post for the lathe?

[jpanhalt]

This is the tool post of the TOYO ML-360:
as you see in the picture, the cross section of the the tool holder is 8x8, can I fit a 10x10 tool holder in the tool post?

I presume you mean the tool bit, not tool holder.  In the US, 3/8" (9.5 mm)  and 1/2" (12.7 mm) are common.As for your question about a 10x10 tool, it appears there is at least 2 mm above the tool, so it will fit.  Can the bit holder be lowered 2 mm to keep the bit edge on center?  If not, you can sometimes put a shim under the body of the toolpost that will allow the bit holder part to be lowered a little.  My quick change holders are all Aloris brand. https://www.aloris.com/aloris_cat/31e970.pdf

in case of using a 10x10 tool holder can I align the center of the tailstock with the cutting inserts tip? actually it's a simple tool post.

Addressed above.

can I use a Proxxon PD 250 Quick change tool post for the lathe?

That depends on your compound and center dimensions.  It is likely.

[xzswq21]

Hello again
Actually I'm thinking of buying a OptiTurn TU2004V but there is no seller to sell it outside of Europe. (I have contacted them for two months)

I wanted to buy a used TOYO ML-360 but this is 22 years-old and the price is $700+$300 shipping but I should buy new transmission belts, gear change set for thread cutting and a Live center for the tailstock from South Korea (MANIX company), I think the cost is $300 to $400, plus I should buy a Quick change tool post from America and the cost is $150+$50 shipping. totally I should spend 700+300+400+200+...=$1600 or more

I found a used WABECO D4000 but the seller sold it to a person in the UK.

so I decided to think about WABECO D2000. A user suggested me to use WABECO D6000 (it's rigid and precision) but it's expensive and on the other hand I should produce precision small things.

1) in my accurate work: a rod with a 10mm diameter and 1mm grooves around it with 0.02mm accuracy!

2) in my general work: 1" Teflon/Brass rods but the accuracy is not important.


What do you think about D2000 or ML-360?

[jpanhalt]

"Nothing is impossible"  But, for what you are describing, the Toyo ML-360 would be a bear to deal with.  Even if the headstock is rigid enough, just look at the compound.  It is neither rigid nor made for precision.

You apparently have little experience with lathe work and seem to be bouncing around with near impossible goals.  That is not to say that getting 0.001" (0.02 mm) accuracy cannot be done relatively easily on a decent lather, but the Toyo toy is not the machine for that.  That will become particularly evident when you try to do a single plunge cut for your grooves.

Good luck.

[xzswq21]

Actually several larhers tried to make the things I mentioned you with their big lathes but they couldn't make it. Because they don't have precision tools, precision lathes and they are not precision machine operator! So I should find a suitable lathe. Many people here have helped me a lot. On the other hand finally I could find some precision tools.

[jpanhalt]

I don't know what you are referring to.  Sure, a huge lathe for turning propellor drive shafts for aircraft carriers might not be precise enough for a wristwatch, but lathes in the 9" to 14" category are.  The Monarch 10EE was one of the most precise manual lathes made.  It is "large" by some standards as it weighs about 3500 pounds, as I recall.

I wish you luck.