Author Topic: what the fuc are "heavy duty" and "standard" wall thickness lugs?  (Read 1026 times)

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Offline coppercone2

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I got a sargent crimp tool good for 8-1/0 AWG lug crimps.

https://www.delcity.net/store/Heavy-Duty-Square-Crimpers/p_819907.h_819912.r_IF1003?mkwid=&crid=545447345245&mp_kw=&mp_mt=&gclid=CjwKCAjwj42UBhAAEiwACIhADqoMgETrI6eatlcIs2cyfRaaHeFGLIBX88Ro4l3CuHqWnAqYJC8ndhoC5i8QAvD_BwE

I had some 8AWG lugs that I assume are standard thickness that came with something, I tried in the 4AWG as per the instructions on the tool and it hardly did shit, so I tried it with a 6AWG port and it deformed the crimp but the wire came out easily.

The lugs are Cu10 (degree symbol) - 6 with 2A written on them.

The manual for the crimp tool claims that there are 'cast' or 'heavy duty' and standard lugs.


For a 8AWG wire, can anyone give an example of what lug would work on the H/D (heavy duty, high wall thickness, cast lug) and which would work on the standard?

Ok it makes sense to me that a higher wall thickness would use a larger die, so the 8AWG HW/HD goes on the 4AWG die and the 8AWG STD goes on the 6AWG die.

Or does anyone know of wall thicknesses that can be used to classify crimps based on caliper measurements? I don't want to go buying crimps at random to determine this, but it looks like there are no standards. :wtf:

Like, what are burndy lugs? STD or HD or is this tool a wash?


Say I want to turn on a lathe a copper custom resistance brazing probe to attach to wire with the crimp tool I have. What should the bore and wall thickness of the machined tube be to classify as a heavy wall and standard wall crimp thickness crimp?

I don't need actual numbers, but providing me with a crimp that you THINK will work with the tool I have would be a BIG help in NARROWING DOWN the amount of RANDOM BULLSHIT I need to buy. I understand that given the nature of this industry with terms like 'heavy duty' being used that no one has any precise or guaranteed answers.

I feel like I am watching my wallet roll down hill through a mine field.
« Last Edit: May 18, 2022, 02:45:54 am by coppercone2 »
 

Offline coppercone2

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Re: what the fuc are "heavy duty" and "standard" wall thickness lugs?
« Reply #1 on: May 21, 2022, 05:31:59 pm »
I got burndy lugs, which look pretty heavy duty, and the crimper does not do shit to them with 6AWG setting using 8AWG lugs like on the face plate.

 I assume they either go bullshit from china or have some unobtanium lug. Basically if it does not say it on the die its not gonna work, the little lookup table saying you can do 8AWG with this is bullshit. I don't trust the face plate at all.

Does anyone know whats going on here ?
 

Offline Ian.M

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Re: what the fuc are "heavy duty" and "standard" wall thickness lugs?
« Reply #2 on: May 21, 2022, 05:53:35 pm »
You need enough copper in the lug walls and cable to totally fill the area of the closed crimping dies with a percent or two excess so it forms a gas-tight crimp.   

Measure the die area - that one looks simple enough to measure directly, but for more complex dies, I would suggest crimping on Plasticine, shaving it flush either side, and weighing it to calculate the volume given the density (use Archimedes method on the rest of the pack).  Once you've got the volume, divide by the jaw width to get the area.   Given a sensitive enough balance it will be reasonably accurate.  For small dies, crimp ten lumps of Plasticine as above and weigh them together for an order of magnitude better accuracy, or maybe switch to crimping soft Lead.  If the die has two profiles laterally for an insulation crimp, carefully cut the plasticine at the boundary line and only measure the width of the contact crimp side of the die.
 

Offline coppercone2

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Re: what the fuc are "heavy duty" and "standard" wall thickness lugs?
« Reply #3 on: May 21, 2022, 07:40:38 pm »
Well the die is square in this tool.

I just wanna know what the fuck they are talking about on the boiler plate. Who are they referencing.

Basically, who makes thicker lugs then burdny?

It says

Cast terminal - irrelevant
H/D Lug - use die 6 (smallest one) for 8
STD Lug - use die 4 for 4,6,8


Is this some kind of issue with fine strand silicone wire? The bundle of wire fits really snug into the lug, its kind of hard to get it in there without fraying actually.

I don't know if I even want to make the measurements unless I find out what they had in mind for this tool, because it might be unobtanium or obsolete and testing is a waste of time.

I tried it with
YA8CL1BOX


https://www.talleycom.com/images/pdf/BRNYA8C-L1BOX.pdf


Burndy sells this
https://assetcloud.roccommerce.net/files/_stateelectric/8/3/10/buryav8c-l2-bulk.pdf

So maybe the heavy duty one with fine strand wire would work in the #6 die

Maybe I will try that heavy wall one in the smaller die before I start weighing putty. But you would think that if the brundy thin wall does not work with the thick wall setting or the thin wall setting why would the thick wall crimp work, but maybe the thick wall will work on the thin wall. I bought some YAV8CL crimps to check.


This must have something to do with fine strand count right? Because Burndy is a good manufacturer and sargent looks pretty serious too. I am perplexed.
« Last Edit: May 21, 2022, 08:02:21 pm by coppercone2 »
 

Offline Ian.M

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Re: what the fuc are "heavy duty" and "standard" wall thickness lugs?
« Reply #4 on: May 22, 2022, 12:33:13 am »
Many extra-flexible electrical cables use 'Rope Lay' construction.
See https://www.newenglandwire.com/product/ultra-flexible-strands/
It has more voids than plain lay cable, (which can approach the ideal 2D hexagonal close packed packing factor of 0.907), so tends to have a greater diameter for the same CSA, which makes it more difficult to get enough copper into the terminal's barrel to crimp effectively, unless a reduced area die is used.
 

Offline coppercone2

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Re: what the fuc are "heavy duty" and "standard" wall thickness lugs?
« Reply #5 on: May 22, 2022, 12:40:12 am »
Where does this cable fit in?
https://www.amazon.com/BNTECHGO-Silicone-Flexible-Insulation-Stranded/dp/B08XTRHBGJ

Because when i do the same crimps on that wire with the 8AWG detent crimper die that I have on a ratcheting crimper, it detents thick and the cable seems to hold well. Its just these square dies that have a problem.

I got the tool because I thought a square crimp on a 8AWG wire would be better.. I have no use for 6+awg wires right now. In a week or two I should know if the thick-construction lugs from Burndy work on the square crimp with the 8AWG wire.

Maybe Burndy 'heavy wall' is actually standard wall and their standard is extra thin? Or does that wire fall into 'difficult to crimp' territory?
« Last Edit: May 22, 2022, 12:47:36 am by coppercone2 »
 

Offline Ian.M

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Re: what the fuc are "heavy duty" and "standard" wall thickness lugs?
« Reply #6 on: May 22, 2022, 05:42:44 am »
Yes, that's rope lay construction - twisted bundles of twisted strands.   Its also 'Chinesium' so there's a risk there's less copper there than claimed.  The easiest way of checking would be to cut an accurately measured length, strip it and weigh the copper.


Its a bodge, but you could try unlaying the strands and bunching them in a single bundle, consolidating it by applying a tight whipping of fine bare tinned copper wire, working from the end of the insulation towards the tip, which will reduce voids and add additional copper in the crimp.  Otherwise try packing the crimp by inserting offcuts of single strand copper wire, before crimping, after the cable has been inserted in the crimp barrel.
 

Offline coppercone2

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Re: what the fuc are "heavy duty" and "standard" wall thickness lugs?
« Reply #7 on: May 22, 2022, 07:49:01 am »
If I get fine silicone wire from a real manufacturer it will not have this problem? I don't mind buying wire if it will work, I don't have a big stock or particular attachment to the chinese stuff, I just thought it was good enough. But if I have to pack crimps and shit with 'official' wire, then its IMO not compatible.

I can measure strand with a micrometer and count how many strands there are tommorow.. assuming a micrometer is good enough.. I have my doubts.
« Last Edit: May 22, 2022, 07:51:03 am by coppercone2 »
 

Offline Kjelt

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Re: what the fuc are "heavy duty" and "standard" wall thickness lugs?
« Reply #8 on: May 22, 2022, 08:00:42 am »
Can you show me a professional version from the A brand manufacturers (Amp and the likes) for this type of crimp?
I have never seen this for cable lugs. For AWG6 and lower we always use a hydraulic crimper since it takes a lot of force to get a decent crimp and the Amp crimper I have has one side round with the awg number in it and the other side a split bar. After the crimp the awg number is pressed in the cablelug, (proof that the correct die was used for the QA check) that much pressure has been applied.
I can not see that your crimper could match that but perhaps this is a new design.
« Last Edit: May 22, 2022, 08:02:14 am by Kjelt »
 

Offline Kjelt

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Re: what the fuc are "heavy duty" and "standard" wall thickness lugs?
« Reply #9 on: May 22, 2022, 08:04:07 am »
Also to check a crimp use a dremel with cutting disc and saw it right through the crimp.
The lug and wire should be one metal mass without holes or open areas. Then you have a good crimp.
 

Offline coppercone2

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Re: what the fuc are "heavy duty" and "standard" wall thickness lugs?
« Reply #10 on: May 22, 2022, 08:05:19 am »
I have no idea, I thought sargent would be good for lugs.
 

Offline Kjelt

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Re: what the fuc are "heavy duty" and "standard" wall thickness lugs?
« Reply #11 on: May 22, 2022, 08:21:15 am »
I find it very suspicious that you have to use a AWG4 die for an AWG8 cable and lug.
For me all alarm bells go off. I would get my mony back and buy a decent hydraulic crimptool second hand on ebay or try some third party hydraulic crimpers if you do not have to crimp dayly (hobby use)
 

Offline Ian.M

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Re: what the fuc are "heavy duty" and "standard" wall thickness lugs?
« Reply #12 on: May 22, 2022, 08:28:13 am »
Crimp connectors and tooling are the wild wild west of electronics assembly.

Ever if you stick to genuine 1st world brands, public specs for the crimp dies are extremely rare, and it generally comes down to manufacturer X stating that the only approved tooling for their product range N is manufacturer Y's model numbers A, B or C  crimp tool/die.   Also, manufacturer Y usually doesn't offer a compatibility table for which manufacturers specific products crimp in a model A tool/die, so after investing $\$\$\$\$$ for the tool you are locked in to manufacturer X, unless you stumble across another manufacturer recommending the same tooling.   Maybe things are better if you are buying 1000,000 units of the crimps, and they'll actually let you have the die specs, but that's not something I've ever been involved with.   Frankly it all smells like an organized crime family to me!

If you are using tooling approved by the crimp terminal manufacturer with a (real) cable CSA within the specified range for that crimp terminal, and the terminal is specified for the metal of the cable, it should 'just work'.  If anything's not as specified it probably wont.   The only factor that's easy for you to control is the amount of copper CSA in the cable, as you can experiment by stripping or adding strands till you find the limits for a particular terminal and tooling, then buy cable with a CSA that's comfortably within the limits.  However some crimp tools/dies will *NEVER* make an acceptable crimp on a particular terminal as they don't match the terminal well enough, and either squish it too much or not enough.
« Last Edit: May 22, 2022, 08:30:56 am by Ian.M »
 

Offline coppercone2

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Re: what the fuc are "heavy duty" and "standard" wall thickness lugs?
« Reply #13 on: May 22, 2022, 05:16:03 pm »
To me it makes sense to swap dies since the thing runs on total mass of copper and the wall thicknesses are different, so you have a different amount of copper in the lug, so not sure how much difference there is between making the wire thinner and the crimp thicker or vise versa, since they want a uniform pressure material... so it did not set off alarm bells
now that I think about it a long time ago I think I did look into strand count of wires and the chinese ones had less then digikey but I forgot about that research.. years ago..

i gotta count this crap
 


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